I really like the hair on the girl, on the left side, in the upper middle of your ref sheet, I think that's a great style to shoot for.
I think its better, but too sharply defined, almost as if you drew each hair instead of the blocks of color. You might be painting on a texture that's too big, it might be easier to paint at resolution? I think you're making progress and this is great practice.
Yeah I know what you mean. The tutorial by that lady says to do it at a much larger resolution then you actually intend to show it at, and it's been going pretty well for me so far but you're right when you said I'm basically painting each individual hair, not really large broad strokes or anything.
When you say upper middle left girl is that the one with the golden brown highlights or the one with the very soft brown color? Either way I like them both, and am going to try to move less away from strands into more... 'anime' or however you want to describe it.
How does this look everyone? I went for less strokey and more clumpy, and added some color variation. I like some of it but I think the contrast is a little strong right now.
The hair on the bottom back of his head makes no sense. I understand you're trying to get it to look like "HIS HAIR STYLE~" but when you're working with such a low resolution it's not a good idea to paint in a hairstyle especially when it fights the silhouette and overall flow of natural hair.
When have you ever seen a guy with that haircut?
PS. Desaturate your hair a good amount. It'll look less like he went to a salon and said "give me vibrant red, yellow, and orange streaks in my hair"
The hair on the bottom back of his head makes no sense. I understand you're trying to get it to look like "HIS HAIR STYLE~" but when you're working with such a low resolution it's not a good idea to paint in a hairstyle especially when it fights the silhouette and overall flow of natural hair.
When have you ever seen a guy with that haircut?
PS. Desaturate your hair a good amount. It'll look less like he went to a salon and said "give me vibrant red, yellow, and orange streaks in my hair"
Why are so many people hateing on his hair? It's one of the few personal choices I make about it, and I think it looks great. If it really offends everyone I can make it all braids will, that satisfy?
If this helps: The left is what I am NOT making or shooting for. The right is much closer. Maybe I'll change his hair to like purple or something so that so many people stop getting the misconception this is supposed to be hyper realism or something.
Minor changes to help along the mirror seam and slightly lightened the darker lines. How does this look, better? Very Jet Set Radio.
Hold on wait, even better:
But seriously, I'm shooting for high vibrancy saturated hair, not plain boring brown. I like how the hair looks in the back even if no one else does and it's my prerogative to keep it that way even if it's 'wrong' and I get lambasted for it.
Why are so many people hateing on his hair? It's one of the few personal choices I make about it, and I think it looks great. If it really offends everyone I can make it all braids will, that satisfy?
most people are probably hating the hair because it doesn't make any sense. I don't see how I could have horizontal hair streaks at the lower back of my head. If your aiming for something like on the right side just drop the hair on the back and it will look much more natural.
Also on your last update the hair is so extremely saturated and purple/pink, you would only see it on neon lights. I know it is possible to get with real hair but then you wouldn't also have such dark strokes in the hair. If you look at the right top hairstyle in that image the purple has a very nice feel about it, yours is just BAM in the face.
Also I would reconsider using purple, it may look good in those manga examples but I'm not sure how it would make this male character look any better, if not much worse.
I think what he's trying to do is make it look like a real haircut where the back of it is shorter than the top. It's not really working yet though, it looks like his hair is flowing sideways.
I can't say I'm a fan of the back of the head either, I don't really understand the braid, but the bottom of the head makes sense... kind of... even if I personally don't like it.
Originally I was going to crit the hair grain but then I started looking around at long braided hair and found the freaky side brushed pattern and I kind of get it, but then I don't, it doesn't really seem to match the character...
Haven't looked at the whole thing in a while so here is the full guy again, with clown hair.
What Vig posted is exactly what I was going for, I'll make more of a seam in them middle where the hair is parting so it doesn't just look like one continuous flow. I know it's not common but that doesn't mean it has to be the same bald space marine you see so often.
Haha and yeah I wasn't really actually going to use that pink purple, just orange was too close to brown so I was getting a lot of 'Make it dark brown' crits. I don't know about everyone else but I'm sick to death of bald space marines or dark brown crew cuts and stuff like that.
CURRENT CHECKLIST:
-The boots got messed up earlier so I gotta fix their darkness like that.
-Re-add hair strands that fix better then the dangly parts I had before.
-?????
-Colorize
-Profit
Her hair is only like that because of the pigtails that pull her hair to the side. Your hair would not naturally flow horizontal so it's probably not the best idea to model a mans hair after a woman with a crazy hairstyle.
Her hair is only like that because of the pigtails that pull her hair to the side. Your hair would not naturally flow horizontal so it's probably not the best idea to model a mans hair after a woman with a crazy hairstyle.
Pigtails it is then! Just give me a second to add the Geo.
Something tells me even if I did bother to texture this it would never look right.
Why are so many people hateing on his hair? It's one of the few personal choices I make about it, and I think it looks great. If it really offends everyone I can make it all braids will, that satisfy?
If this helps: The left is what I am NOT making or shooting for. The right is much closer. Maybe I'll change his hair to like purple or something so that so many people stop getting the misconception this is supposed to be hyper realism or something.
//
But seriously, I'm shooting for high vibrancy saturated hair, not plain boring brown. I like how the hair looks in the back even if no one else does and it's my prerogative to keep it that way even if it's 'wrong' and I get lambasted for it.
The braids aren't clear enough for me to look at it and see it for what you intended. And when I do "get it," it still feels awkward because it's a pretty unique hair style decision on an otherwise "normal" character. Sometimes putting something in just because you like it isn't a good enough reason, especially if it ends up being a distracting element that hurts the effectiveness of the model as a whole. At the end of the day it's your model and you should do whatever you want. We're just pointing out that it doesn't read well at the moment.
As for the contrast and such, you would have to thin out your dark lines quite a bit more before I can see the connection with the anime-style hair you referenced. Many 3d anime style characters don't have lines in the texture because that's so view dependent and is something better served for 2d images.
Again, it's up to you, and if you like it a certain way then you should just do it and bring the model closer to completion so we can get a better idea of what you want to do.
More or less what you said haikai, though I'm not strictly trying to make it anime, I just wanted to show I wasn't trying to make it real life hair.
And working towards bringing it to that completion, as borrowed from HERE I made some color sketches without actually needing to colorize the whole guy.
8 is mostly a joke, 1 and 2 are a bit 'Real is brown' for my tastes. I think I like 10, 13, 14, 6, and 7 the most personally. I don't know a whole lot of color theory or fancy things like that so I mostly just winged it, some work some don't.
I like the bright yellow pants but I can't seem to get it to work, though I've seen it done elsewhere really well with just the pants yellow, but I forget where now. Oh well.
Which ones do you guys like the most, I'll try doing some variations on the the style that is the most popular. Alternatively, anyone have any tips of how to make a good color scheme?
Who is Belias? And for that matter, something I've always wondered is who is that guy in so many people's icon? Sometimes he's Cthulhu or a piece of toast or pixel art, but it's all the same guy.
Either way, good morning from my point of view, time to do more arts.
Anyways here is a new set of color schemes. This time I like pretty much all of them.
Wut. I have always only ever been madmuffin. I've never heard of any Belias. Also I forgot to renumber the new color scheme so just go left to right top to bottom to say a number.
Rough color blockout of what 2 might look like. I did the same for 8 but it just didn't look right.
Did some more of them. Ignore the seam on the pants, pretend it's the same color, that'll be fixed after.
I like those ones too, my favorites right now are probably 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, and 11. It's so hard to choose.
I'm contemplated breaking up the texture map into layers with color sliders for each piece, namely the coat, sleeves, shirt, pants, gloves, boots, and stripes, that way people could make their own color selection. But that is for further down the road. For now I'll pick one 'standard' outfit or whatever and work with that.
EDIT: I decided to go with 4. My reasoning is I want him to be readable at night and as well as day, meaning the white coat and yellow help for this, the black coated ones are nice but I am worried this would make him blend in too much with the dark night environment. 8 and 5 aren't that dark but the next problem is that any blood on them wouldn't show well since it would be Red on Red.
But since 4 kinda looks like a Bee, I'm using the Blue from 10 instead.
And now to beautify, with stains, dirt, mud, tears, etc. And Color Variation.
The proper skintone was a major bitch to get right, and I'm still not totally 100% happy with it. It always seems like its either glowing in the dark too much, the shadows too dark, too saturated, not saturated enough, shadows too bright now, no shadows at all, bad makeup job, etc. Turns out you can tell really easy when something is wrong with the face since we see them so often.
I think I got it to a decent state though. What you're seeing is like 500+ different layers. I need to refine my process. Still some cleanup to do though, mainly around the mirror seam.
Oh and ignore the hair, it got messed up here while working.
I think you need to look at your stuff much more objectively. Look at that nostril. Why would you want to surround it by some dark outline ? Think of light falling on your object, pick two tones, and place the light and darks accordingly. And collapse all those layers, they ll only create bad habits.
Also, paint the same face you are trying to achieve, but in 2D. Then compare, fix, compare, fix. good luck!
I think you need to look at your stuff much more objectively. Look at that nostril. Why would you want to surround it by some dark outline ? Think of light falling on your object, pick two tones, and place the light and darks accordingly. And collapse all those layers, they ll only create bad habits.
Also, paint the same face you are trying to achieve, but in 2D. Then compare, fix, compare, fix. good luck!
What do you mean by objectively? The dark outline is there because it makes the nose readable from a distance and it's how the light casts. Just look at the post before this where the head is smaller, you can still see the nose defined. I looked at your linked portfolio as well and you have the same darkness around the nose in a lotofyourownpieces, so I'm not following what's wrong.
And what do you mean by paint it in 2D? Do you mean like just paint a picture of him, since I though the texture map was 2D enough. I don't paint directly on the model if that's what you mean.
And while I do collapse my layers when I am completely done with them, I don't see why it's a bad habit not too since once you collapse it you lose all ability to alter your picture with the same power. What if I wanted to make all his moles blue or something, the layer they are on is mixed in now and it wouldn't be as easy to change as it would after the fact. Like the dark parts on the hair are their own layer and it's easy to soften them up exclusively without affecting the rest of the image because I didn't collapse.
I like your work though, I don't doubt you know what you're talking about I'm just not getting it, maybe our processes just aren't compatible.
madmuffin, i would watch your attitude , so far you have been either ignoring in a snarky way valuable critiques that are given to your work , and you have gone as far as "educating" an artist of the caliber as Pior and others that have posted here.
So far the hair looks really bad , as does the head in general , proportions etc , you were given lots of help yet chose to ignore or just believe everyone is wrong.
Like this you will never improve , and i would advise you to work on your attitude first since its the worst iv seen in a while around here.
madmuffin, i would watch your attitude , so far you have been either ignoring in a snarky way valuable critiques that are given to your work , and you have gone as far as "educating" an artist of the caliber as Pior and others that have posted here.
So far the hair looks really bad , as does the head in general , proportions etc , you were given lots of help yet chose to ignore or just believe everyone is wrong.
Like this you will never improve , and i would advise you to work on your attitude first since its the worst iv seen in a while around here.
I really don't understand all the flak I'm getting around here at all. Am I not allowed to disagree in any way what so ever?
I could understand people being upset with me if I was like 'Wow you're a piece of shit and your work is terrible, never talk to me again.' but all I did was point out how his noses are similar to mine, that I don't understand what he means by objective in this context, and that I don't agree with collapsing all my layers.
I even said that I -LIKE- his work. I think you're reading too much into how I type or something and painting me like some sort of insufferable douchebag.
He didn't even say anything about the hair or proportions so I don't know where that is coming from. I've gotten lots of good critique and followed it as well as I can without ignoring or believing everyone else but me is wrong.
Maybe you should stop trying to put words or ideas in my mouth or telling me how I think and feel or am choosing to do. If I was choosing to ignore him would I even reply? I'm probably still going to make changes to the face once I get home anyways. I know it's not perfect or done but I figured he deserved a reply, because I like it when people can elaborate on their critique to help me better understand what they want me to change.
When pior says something about stuff like this it's better to just take it in without even questioning it.
Also, yes, collapse your layers, it'll make you more confident in the end when you work on it, especially with hand painted textures.
I believe this is what pior was talking about:
You're probably right. I really do like his stuff, yours is pretty nice too. While he did say "Look at that nostril." you're probably right about the bridge needing to be a little softer. Maybe not as soft as yours, I'm getting a bit of a Voldemort no nose vibe now from a distance straight on since there's no shading but still softer.
and @skayne What's wrong with his proportions? And before everyone bites my head off again think I'm saying it because I'm a huge dick, I don't mean that like I think it's perfect and you're just wrong, I'm just not seeing it, it lines up with all my reference art on ideal proportions etc 1:1. What would you do to fix it? Lengthen the arms and legs? Make his head even smaller again? I'd post my references but I'm at work right now and don't have them, I think some of them are a few pages back in the thread now though.
And again, I don't appreciate other people telling me who I am or how I think. I'm not set in my ways, I'm here to get critique from other talented artists like you guys, not to stick up my nose at everyone and pretend I'm perfect. Just because I can disagree now and again doesn't mean I'm ignoring every crit I get and not concidering them. I can't even disagree with something if I don't stop to concider it first.
dont be so defensive. you've had some kind of retort or standoffish remark to just about every critique or comment. have someone else read out loud what you've typed and you'll understand why everyone is not liking the way you respond.
also, try EVERYTHING suggested. if you dont like it, change it back. it never hurts to try because you never know when it'll give you new inspiration to do something that's better. especially if this is just practice to improve yourself, there is no harm in trying it all.
You're probably right. I really do like his stuff, yours is pretty nice too. While he did say "Look at that nostril." you're probably right about the bridge needing to be a little softer. Maybe not as soft as yours, I'm getting a bit of a Voldemort no nose vibe now from a distance straight on since there's no shading but still softer.
If you actually tried to understand what people and especially pior was getting at was that I never actually softened the nose at all, I merely made the light fall on the shapes properly and realisticly. You cannot force shadows and dark spots to appear in places they cannot.
You can however pronounce a sharper nose via the help of highlights.
If you actually tried to understand what people and especially pior was getting at was that I never actually softened the nose at all, I merely made the light fall on the shapes properly and realisticly. You cannot force shadows and dark spots to appear in places they cannot.
dont be so defensive. you've had some kind of retort or standoffish remark to just about every critique or comment. have someone else read out loud what you've typed and you'll understand why everyone is not liking the way you respond.
This is getting really long because I can only type so fast and more people keep replying while I do. Just skip to the bottom I TLDR'd.
Now I'm being criticized for I choose to word it, just because I said 'softened'? There was a hard dark edge there before and now there isn't but that's definitely not called softening. Polycount sure is harsh. "If you actually tried to understand what people and especially pior was getting at" How is this nothing more then accusational and rude?
That's not criticism, there is a difference between taking a critique and defending myself from people who just being mean and throwing personal attacks at me because they don't like me or because I don't agree, nothing to do with the art.
If I sound standoffish and defensive it's because I'm doing exactly that, standing up to people who are attacking me, and all I get are replies that essentially boil down to 'Stop standing up for yourself while we make things up about you and tell you you aren't allowed to disagree with anything, ever.'
If someone 'critiques' me saying I should have made a woman and I say no it's a man, is everyone going to be all over me like bees on honey saying 'You're ignorant, you don't listen, Don't stand up to anyone ever, don't say anything negative to anyone who's been around here longer then you, you should stop being defensive and do everything you're told.'
If we actually want to move away from mudslinging and start talking about art criticism again, Yes I will probably try making the 'light fall on the shapes properly and realistically' (Definitely not softening it), I'm sorry if it seemed like to everyone else that I am just disregarding everyone's critiques, especially where I ask them to elaborate more on it since that is obviously just how I show I'm ignoring people.
At least I don't resort to hurling personal insults and telling everyone else how they think about my replies. You can make up your own mind that I'm some ignorant asshole or something, and I'll just keep plugging away at my art, trying to improve. 'If you actually tried to understand' what I'm saying you'd realize I just want to improve my art is all, why does everyone keep trying to paint me as some sort of monster for this?
DKK I really like your post and I wish more people could be objective like you are, I don't think you sound like a cock bag at all. I'm at work right now so I don't have my references to show you, but I know what you mean about things like how perspective from non orthographic photographs throws things off, how not to match up to drawings exactly since they are just drawings after all., etc.
Again, I'm not just being standoffish because I feel like it or something, I just wish more people could be like DKK and would talk about the facts of the matter instead of coloring it with slander to make their posts longer or something. It doesn't help me in any way and it doesn't make anyone look like a bigger man for doing it.
TLDR I'm not ignoring anyone's opinions, I just disagree with some of it. Obviously the face needs work that's why I am here. DKK gives good, objective critique. Please stop slandering me and try to follow his example. I'm sorry if I'm hard to get along with.
I want to elaborate more but this is already way too long as it is. I'll try out all your critiques and more once I get home because I'm not at my PC right now.
i know its hard to let loose, but you are not your work
you neither have to defend yourself, or take every piece of criticism you can take from here, some might work better than others, some might even not apply, didn't read all of them
basicly what i'm now saying is just subjective and isn't abut your painting and such, as others already pointed out some (to me) very valid points. As far as the proportions goo, i think the biggest issue is the wild mix of pretty stylized proportions with a rather realistic face, it might not be photorealism or really naturally but it has a stylistic direction which seems to fight the style of the body which is rather toony. Now basicly there come 2 options to my mind, either redesign the head or the body - or maybe both combined will work out in the end when done, but to me - right now - it just doesn't work together as a whole.
... DKK I really like your post and I wish more people could be objective like you are, I don't think you sound like a cock bag at all.
DKK mentioned that everyone has a certain voice when typing. The quote above could be taken as "You all sound like cock bags, except DKK". It could be a very passive agressive way of insulting everyone. It might not be your intention but that's how it can come across. And reading the last 8 pages of furious defense of your artistic decisions, it's easy to read it as a thinly veiled slap at people who you don't agree with. That's what your voice comes across as. Just a thought.
DKK mentioned that everyone has a certain voice when typing. The quote above could be taken as "You all sound like cock bags, except DKK". It could be a very passive agressive way of insulting everyone. It might not be your intention but that's how it can come across. And reading the last 8 pages of furious defense of your artistic decisions, it's easy to read it as a thinly veiled slap at people who you don't agree with. That's what your voice comes across as. Just a thought.
I hope I don't sound like a cock bag, Most of the criticism I'm directing at you is criticism I wish I'd had directed at me.
I've never once outright called someone a name, nor meant to imply that everyone but DKK was a cock bag, that would be juvenile. I know there are some artists that are bad but pass it off as "It's stylized' and then really DO ignore all the critique, and that's not me.
I think the same statement of how people's voice comes across to others should be watched, not just myself. The only reason I feel like I'm being attacked is because so many people are typing like they're attacking me. If they'd have watched how they typed as well then it wouldn't have come this far.
If you actually tried to understand what people and especially pior was getting at
To me this just sounds snide and condescending, how else am I supposed to interpret it?
Also not ignoring Neox just didn't get to you yet. I'm hearing what you're saying, I know I'm not my work but just the caliber of some of the criticism gets to me.
I like criticism that is "Your art is wrong, here is why." Criticism that is like "Your art is wrong, just fix it." is not as useful, and stuff that is essentially "This is terrible, what's wrong with you?" is just rude and is meant to incense.
How would you suggest I make the face match the body, or the other way around? Originally it was much larger but everyone was like 'It's looks like a child, just fix it." Which wasn't very enlightening. I've changed the body proportions repeatedly and I though I had it good until now everyone is suddenly ripping on it again, but not really posting much in the ways of how they think I should fix it, just saying that it's bad and wrong and that I should change it. I'll have my reference posted later once I get home.
Basically what I am saying is it's easy for lots of people to say 'It's wrong' its not as easy to explain how I should fix it. It bothers me when I get lots of 'Its wrong' It's wrong, but not one 'Here is why, and how to fix it." If it's wrong now its because I don't know how to fix it, just telling me it's wrong won't make it any better.
To me this just sounds snide and condescending, how else am I supposed to interpret it?
Sorry if I came of a bit extra rude but I just want to get a point across.
Because it's easy to try to find explanations and go "yes but imo" while you should try to see where all these very experienced people are coming from, assume they are right even if it at first feels wrong.
I know I started getting better the moment I humbled up and really tried to see what all these experienced polycounters meant instead of seeing it as if it was their opinion.
I've never once outright called someone a name, nor meant to imply that everyone BUT DKK was a cock bag, that would be juvenile. I know there are some artists that are bad but pass it off as "It's stylized' and then really DO ignore all the critique, and that's not me.
I think the same statement of how people's voice comes across to others should be watched, not just myself. The only reason I feel like I'm being attacked is because so many people are typing like they're attacking me. If they'd have watched how they typed as well then it wouldn't have come this far.
To me this just sounds snide and condescending, how else am I supposed to interpret it?
I know you only said it because DKK said it but did you really have to include it in your post? Not really.
As for "If you actually tried to understand what people and especially pior was getting at" it is harsh. But this is PC. And PC IS HARSH. Personally I'd get annoyed, then take a moment to think about what it means. Then I'd realise that I might indeed be missing something since there's quite a few people telling me I'm missing the point.
You say you don't want to imply that everyone is a cockbag or call anyone names outright. But the tone of your writing lends itself well to that kind of interpretation because that's how you come across. It comes back to the attitude thing. You don't have to take everything lying down but when some very talented people point out flaws in your images, you don't go and look at their work and go "LOOK, LOOK WHAT YOU DID!". As pointed out above, Pior didn't do the same thing. Not by far. There's a very important difference and it is a hard earned difference that makes his work look fantastic. You have some ways to go yet to get there.
And lastly, the reason people are writing as if they are attacking you is because they are losing patience with a person who, after 8 pages, still doesn't get it. It's not about throwing your hands up and surrendering but being a little bit more humble, and to accept that some of these people really do know what they are talking about and they have far more experience than you do. Questioning authority is all well and good but sometimes you just need to shut up and listen.
Now go and look at Piors noses and figure out what the difference is between his work and yours. :poly124:
I know you only said it because DKK said it but did you really have to include it in your post? Not really.
As for "If you actually tried to understand what people and especially pior was getting at" it is harsh. But this is PC. And PC IS HARSH. Personally I'd get annoyed, then take a moment to think about what it means. Then I'd realise that I might indeed be missing something since there's quite a few people telling me I'm missing the point.
You say you don't want to imply that everyone is a cockbag or call anyone names outright. But the tone of your writing lends itself well to that kind of interpretation because that's how you come across. It comes back to the attitude thing. You don't have to take everything lying down but when some very talented people point out flaws in your images, you don't go and look at their work and go "LOOK, LOOK WHAT YOU DID!". As pointed out above, Pior didn't do the same thing. Not by far. There's a very important difference and it is a hard earned difference that makes his work look fantastic. You have some ways to go yet to get there.
And lastly, the reason people are writing as if they are attacking you is because they are losing patience with a person who, after 8 pages, still doesn't get it. It's not about throwing your hands up and surrendering but being a little bit more humble, and to accept that some of these people really do know what they are talking about and they have far more experience than you do. Questioning authority is all well and good but sometimes you just need to shut up and listen.
Now go and look at Piors noses and figure out what the difference is :poly124:between his work and yours.
Did I have to include it, maybe not. Was it courteous to address all of his post, I think so.
The reoccurring theme I am seeing is that everyone seems to think that I think I know what's best and that all their critique is under me or something like that. This is not the case, I've repeatedly stated how I like other people's work, listened to their critiques, made lots of changes. If I was really so full of myself he would still look like this:
Please don't say that after 8 pages I am just not getting it. I think I've made a LOT of progress since I started, people seem to be forgetting it didn't start looking like it does now at all.
And all I said is Pior's and my own nose look similar, and I honestly seriously believe they do. Sure mine isn't perfect but there is not a huge stretch of difference I have to change to make them look pretty much the same. Everyone is painting it like my nose is a purple square and I am trying to pass it off as being photo realistic and this is not the case.
I'm going to change it just like everything else I've been working on all this time.
And now to read all of Vig's post. I'm sure it's highly informative and will be useful. And not to say that I think that his is the only informative post or something. If I have to make sure I don't hurt anyone's feelings all the time it makes it really hard to give out any compliments or say anything really without paragraphs of clarifications. Just stop assuming I'm closet hating everyone or something, I'm really not.
EDIT: Lots of good stuff in there but I'll take your advice to step away from my thread for now and post more when I get home. While I don't agree with everything you're saying about me (gasp) there are lots of good points about the art.
Sweet... The drama's back...
(The following is an effort to help you keep your threads railed)
I agree that you're too sensitive to critique and defensive of your mistakes, as most artists are. This thread and 2 others are full of it. No one is putting words in your mouth or telling you what you think, they're restating a pattern of behavior, they've seen. If it needs to degrade to quoting posts and showing examples I guess that is what it will take. But seriously just relax, and open your mind.
I suggest not posting right away with a rebuttal, but sit on your post, evaluate your stuff and try to disconnect from what you've created. It seems (based on the time it takes you to respond) that you're rushing to defend "yourself". Give it a while, chew on what they're saying. Question it for sure. Test it out, please do. Experiment with it and ask for clarification.
Spend more time asking questions when you're learning than defending your choices. If you're going to defend your decisions do it with reason and logic instead of emotion. "Because I like it broken" is quickly wearing everyone out, and they'll leave you to enjoy your broken art by yourself.
Realize you're not going to go from zero to awesome in the span of one or two attempts. There's a fine line between:
"I get what you're saying and I'm having trouble and need to practice"and "I can't really get it to work. I like it this way, so you're wrong."
ANYWAY!
Going back to the face, I'm positive you're still making a few mistakes.
I see a little bit of Hugh, but a lot more Kryten.
Going from the top down.
Hair: http://www.3dtotal.com/team/Tutorials/2dhair/2dhair.php
Maybe this tutorial will help better than the others. Block in the shapes as they make sense on the 3D model not the 2D texture. This can be hard but its why I suggested using viewport canvas to get the base colors knocked in as guides.
Forehead:
When people where talking about the planes of the face and tossing around illustrations that are exaggerated it was to get you thinking about shading the face and the geometric construction. No one was implying that you take it literally and draw the sharp drastic cranial ridges. At best we had hoped for the topology to follow that somewhat. Think of a skull, picture the roundness, look at our boy Hugh, notice his forehead.
Eyebrows:
It looks like you lifted the eyebrows from a pop diva who's teased, plucked and sculpted her eyebrows. They've retreated from the middle of the forehead and are making a break for his ears. Because they're high, he looks a little surprised. Eyes: (<-this only addresses under the eyes)
The the skin under the eyes points to the nostrils on your model, when it should underline the eye and point up to the tear duct. This also leads to him looking surprised.
The pupils are stretched, colored oddly and too visible.
A good rule of thumb is, the iris rests just below the lower lid. The upper lid sits on the dark inner part of the pupil.
It helps to color the white part of the eye a fleshy color instead of "white". There are veins and connecting tissue around the eye, and because the eyes are reflective they catch light bouncing from the surrounding flesh.
Nose:
Been covered by Pior and others really well.
I'll add that the tissue sitting on the nose and under the eyes is a bit like saddle bags riding on the nose.
I also suspect that because of the lack of supporting geometry around the nose the profile is still way too pointy and the nostrils aren't supported. I think you've managed to get around people talking about this by avoiding profile shots...
Cheeks:
Kryton again.
Mouth and Chin: The coloration is wrong, this comes from it being drawn in B/W then colorized with the same color. It's a darker shade of the overall flesh tone instead of being made up of different colors.
Wow I didn't know text formatting rules got that complex. I changed my post to have italics.
I hope everyone is ready for an art dump because here comes an art dump.
First, my main references. None of this is 1:1 its more like a conglomeration of them all. Remember that I'm not trying to just make Hugh Laurie or any other one person, my original intention was semi malnourished/gaunt. Thus, the deep cheek bones, eye sockets and long face, not round and flush like a healthy person. Current skin tone doesn't really reflect this.
Next is stuff to help critiques. Full body with wires in Orthographic, Full body without wires in perspective, and again the same with the head.
And then the texture map in case anyone wants it for any reason.
And last but not least, the hair in ortho since some people expressed they still don't like it and it could use improvement.
I was just messing with the skin texture to try and match people's crits form earlier today. so the nose and a few other places are still a little screwy right now.
EDIT: Skayne just brought up Shapes and Sillhouette so lets have one of those too:
ALSO Skayne brought up a huge point I wanted to touch on:
While these proportions may have worked for Torchlight, or whatever your reference is, I can't remember, it is the style that made it believable. Neither your shapes (the silhouette of the model) nor the texture really read as anything to fantisy-ish (appropriately stylized).
This is one really common trend I see is lots and lots and lots of hand-painted work and games set exclusively in the Medieval/Fantasy genres. Lots of really nice crates and doors and horse drawn carriages etc, but maybe I just haven't looked far enough but I haven't really seen anything set in like a current era timeline yet has the same hand painted style. Cars, fire hydrants, street lights and dumpsters in a handpainted style.
This character was never meant to be medieval or fantasy, he's wearing modern clothing and is meant to exist in a modern timelime. I don't believe there should be a divide saying that handpainted is exclusive to fantasy and the closer to the current time, the more realistic your models have to become; Just because it doesn't look like Left 4 Dead 2 or Modern Warfare doesn't mean it can't be the year 20XX.
Anyways just hopes that this helps some people imagine the kind of environment he's supposed to blend in with and that I was going for. On that note if anyone knows any hand painted modern time line games, please do share.
And while I wait for replies, I'll pour over Vig's stuff again and make changes now that I'm at my PC.
Okay I should have been more specific. When I said there was no modern current hand painted I meant stylized unrealistic the way fantasy stuff is portrayed and hand painted. Like, think Torchlight in every single way, no changes only they are wearing jackets and jeans with guns, modern attire instead of leather and platemail and swords.
Yeah that Bruce Willis is definitely hand painted but he's also pretty realistic, which is not what i mean but I didn't really word it well I guess.
Anyways while trying to fix my face and match it to the kind of critique I was getting, it's steadily gone horribly horribly wrong.
Now it just looks like some sort of creepy spaced out semi realistic clay man pushed through a tube half asian Odo Fred Durst. It's completely lost all the essence it had before, it looks nothing like the face I intended it to look like and I am just generally hating it completely.
Everyone keeps pushing for more and more realism, more realistic, do these crits to make it real but the more I do that the further and further it gets from how I want it to look, massive style creep. In it's current form I can finally see what people mean by saying there is too much a difference between the face and body style, it's just horrible now. I personally loved how it looked on the left when it was still black and white because it was nice and crisp, not some hideous washed out ugly mug.
Back to Skayne though. All the points you are highlighting as what's wrong with him are exactly the points I was shooting for deliberately so I'm finding it really hard to find the words respond to your critique so that you'll understand. I've had this same problem before in other threads that I find it incredibly difficult to make other people understand what I am shooting for because words are failing me. I wish I could just project an image and just be like 'This' and everyone would be like 'Oh well now I understand.' but it doesn't work that way.
He has to have a big collar, it's part of the design. I don't know how you could possibly make it not obscure his neck since that is where the collar goes an does since it's there to block the wind on the neck, but I'm not going to just remove the collar because it's hurting his silhouette. Removing it out of the question, that is like saying 'The Xenomorph's head is too long and not working, make it a sphere.' You just don't do that. I've seen loads of characters with big collars and they worked fine so why doesn't mine.
I feel really infirm right now because I'm really struggling to put an abstract concept into words so that you get it. Like... Current existing established fantasy styled hand painting and proportions in a modern setting maybe? I don't know how to put it any better then that and it's really frustrating.
I don't mind the proportions, or the collar. And I realize you've wound up putting in a lot of hours as a direct result of the advice given in this thread.
Still, though, some of the things you're insisting upon will not make sense to anyone but you. Which is fine for personal art you're doing on your own time for the sake of nobody but you.
But if you're expecting to use it in a portfolio that other people will be seeing, and judging... Or if you're expecting essentially ANY human interactions directly or indirectly involving it, I would really recommend taking the advices given here seriously. They're not pushing for realism they're pushing for sense. Some semblance of accuracy, or reason.
I think at the moment you could really stand to take a step back and do a lot of research. I don't mean google image search, I mean studying professionals, concept art, anatomy books, take some time to do some real-world sketching and drawing. I'm not a 3D artist, I'm a 2D artist, but I can tell you that right now you're pulling largely from your own mind. You're treating your references like you're treating the people here, looking at them but not really utilizing them because they're not "exactly your style" or what you're going for. Study and some personal drawing will help, because it's your mental knowledge base right now that's lacking more than anything - and building that up will help you in all things.
If you want to push this, with that...back of head...hair...braid(?), and your current design. By all means, nobody's stopping you. Complete it in your own time and be happy that you accomplished your goal just as you wanted it and liked it. Every artist has the right to be happy with their work.
But if you put it up for critique, expect good, honest critique. That's exactly what you're getting right now.
Try dropping the shoulders a bit just to see how it looks. If it doesn't work you can just go back to what you had but i'm curious.
I think it looks a little better now, even if were the coat not there the shoulders might be a little too low now.
God I hate the face now though, he looks like an insufferable douchebag. If he was a face I would punch him. In the face. That is going to get changed quick.
and #Two Listen, all really great critique, I'll try to keep that in mind and find more and more references, It's getting late where I am right now so my mind is a little discombobulated but like, it's all really useful, I wish I had something more specific to say back. I appreciate it.
Replies
Yeah I know what you mean. The tutorial by that lady says to do it at a much larger resolution then you actually intend to show it at, and it's been going pretty well for me so far but you're right when you said I'm basically painting each individual hair, not really large broad strokes or anything.
When you say upper middle left girl is that the one with the golden brown highlights or the one with the very soft brown color? Either way I like them both, and am going to try to move less away from strands into more... 'anime' or however you want to describe it.
When have you ever seen a guy with that haircut?
PS. Desaturate your hair a good amount. It'll look less like he went to a salon and said "give me vibrant red, yellow, and orange streaks in my hair"
Why are so many people hateing on his hair? It's one of the few personal choices I make about it, and I think it looks great. If it really offends everyone I can make it all braids will, that satisfy?
If this helps: The left is what I am NOT making or shooting for. The right is much closer. Maybe I'll change his hair to like purple or something so that so many people stop getting the misconception this is supposed to be hyper realism or something.
Minor changes to help along the mirror seam and slightly lightened the darker lines. How does this look, better? Very Jet Set Radio.
Hold on wait, even better:
But seriously, I'm shooting for high vibrancy saturated hair, not plain boring brown. I like how the hair looks in the back even if no one else does and it's my prerogative to keep it that way even if it's 'wrong' and I get lambasted for it.
most people are probably hating the hair because it doesn't make any sense. I don't see how I could have horizontal hair streaks at the lower back of my head. If your aiming for something like on the right side just drop the hair on the back and it will look much more natural.
Also on your last update the hair is so extremely saturated and purple/pink, you would only see it on neon lights. I know it is possible to get with real hair but then you wouldn't also have such dark strokes in the hair. If you look at the right top hairstyle in that image the purple has a very nice feel about it, yours is just BAM in the face.
Also I would reconsider using purple, it may look good in those manga examples but I'm not sure how it would make this male character look any better, if not much worse.
Originally I was going to crit the hair grain but then I started looking around at long braided hair and found the freaky side brushed pattern and I kind of get it, but then I don't, it doesn't really seem to match the character...
Haven't looked at the whole thing in a while so here is the full guy again, with clown hair.
What Vig posted is exactly what I was going for, I'll make more of a seam in them middle where the hair is parting so it doesn't just look like one continuous flow. I know it's not common but that doesn't mean it has to be the same bald space marine you see so often.
Haha and yeah I wasn't really actually going to use that pink purple, just orange was too close to brown so I was getting a lot of 'Make it dark brown' crits. I don't know about everyone else but I'm sick to death of bald space marines or dark brown crew cuts and stuff like that.
CURRENT CHECKLIST:
-The boots got messed up earlier so I gotta fix their darkness like that.
-Re-add hair strands that fix better then the dangly parts I had before.
-?????
-Colorize
-Profit
Her hair is only like that because of the pigtails that pull her hair to the side. Your hair would not naturally flow horizontal so it's probably not the best idea to model a mans hair after a woman with a crazy hairstyle.
Pigtails it is then! Just give me a second to add the Geo.
Something tells me even if I did bother to texture this it would never look right.
Like Yotsuba but only the bottom two
The braids aren't clear enough for me to look at it and see it for what you intended. And when I do "get it," it still feels awkward because it's a pretty unique hair style decision on an otherwise "normal" character. Sometimes putting something in just because you like it isn't a good enough reason, especially if it ends up being a distracting element that hurts the effectiveness of the model as a whole. At the end of the day it's your model and you should do whatever you want. We're just pointing out that it doesn't read well at the moment.
As for the contrast and such, you would have to thin out your dark lines quite a bit more before I can see the connection with the anime-style hair you referenced. Many 3d anime style characters don't have lines in the texture because that's so view dependent and is something better served for 2d images.
Again, it's up to you, and if you like it a certain way then you should just do it and bring the model closer to completion so we can get a better idea of what you want to do.
And working towards bringing it to that completion, as borrowed from HERE I made some color sketches without actually needing to colorize the whole guy.
I like the bright yellow pants but I can't seem to get it to work, though I've seen it done elsewhere really well with just the pants yellow, but I forget where now. Oh well.
Which ones do you guys like the most, I'll try doing some variations on the the style that is the most popular. Alternatively, anyone have any tips of how to make a good color scheme?
Makes no sense.
It does to me. Also I wasn't being serious I thought that was apparent.
Who is Belias? And for that matter, something I've always wondered is who is that guy in so many people's icon? Sometimes he's Cthulhu or a piece of toast or pixel art, but it's all the same guy.
Either way, good morning from my point of view, time to do more arts.
Anyways here is a new set of color schemes. This time I like pretty much all of them.
Wut. I have always only ever been madmuffin. I've never heard of any Belias. Also I forgot to renumber the new color scheme so just go left to right top to bottom to say a number.
Rough color blockout of what 2 might look like. I did the same for 8 but it just didn't look right.
Did some more of them. Ignore the seam on the pants, pretend it's the same color, that'll be fixed after.
Which do you like the most?
Haha thanks. Is there any one color scheme you like in particular, I'm having trouble picking just one I like to go with.
Including it again here since it's a new page.
Added numbers so it was easier for people to number them.
I like 5 ,6, 8, 9, 11
With 8 and 9 being my top two picks
I'm contemplated breaking up the texture map into layers with color sliders for each piece, namely the coat, sleeves, shirt, pants, gloves, boots, and stripes, that way people could make their own color selection. But that is for further down the road. For now I'll pick one 'standard' outfit or whatever and work with that.
EDIT: I decided to go with 4. My reasoning is I want him to be readable at night and as well as day, meaning the white coat and yellow help for this, the black coated ones are nice but I am worried this would make him blend in too much with the dark night environment. 8 and 5 aren't that dark but the next problem is that any blood on them wouldn't show well since it would be Red on Red.
But since 4 kinda looks like a Bee, I'm using the Blue from 10 instead.
And now to beautify, with stains, dirt, mud, tears, etc. And Color Variation.
Heh, but not really. Just testing out the UVs for logos on the chest.
I think I got it to a decent state though. What you're seeing is like 500+ different layers. I need to refine my process. Still some cleanup to do though, mainly around the mirror seam.
Oh and ignore the hair, it got messed up here while working.
Also, paint the same face you are trying to achieve, but in 2D. Then compare, fix, compare, fix. good luck!
What do you mean by objectively? The dark outline is there because it makes the nose readable from a distance and it's how the light casts. Just look at the post before this where the head is smaller, you can still see the nose defined. I looked at your linked portfolio as well and you have the same darkness around the nose in a lot of your own pieces, so I'm not following what's wrong.
And what do you mean by paint it in 2D? Do you mean like just paint a picture of him, since I though the texture map was 2D enough. I don't paint directly on the model if that's what you mean.
And while I do collapse my layers when I am completely done with them, I don't see why it's a bad habit not too since once you collapse it you lose all ability to alter your picture with the same power. What if I wanted to make all his moles blue or something, the layer they are on is mixed in now and it wouldn't be as easy to change as it would after the fact. Like the dark parts on the hair are their own layer and it's easy to soften them up exclusively without affecting the rest of the image because I didn't collapse.
I like your work though, I don't doubt you know what you're talking about I'm just not getting it, maybe our processes just aren't compatible.
So far the hair looks really bad , as does the head in general , proportions etc , you were given lots of help yet chose to ignore or just believe everyone is wrong.
Like this you will never improve , and i would advise you to work on your attitude first since its the worst iv seen in a while around here.
I really don't understand all the flak I'm getting around here at all. Am I not allowed to disagree in any way what so ever?
I could understand people being upset with me if I was like 'Wow you're a piece of shit and your work is terrible, never talk to me again.' but all I did was point out how his noses are similar to mine, that I don't understand what he means by objective in this context, and that I don't agree with collapsing all my layers.
I even said that I -LIKE- his work. I think you're reading too much into how I type or something and painting me like some sort of insufferable douchebag.
He didn't even say anything about the hair or proportions so I don't know where that is coming from. I've gotten lots of good critique and followed it as well as I can without ignoring or believing everyone else but me is wrong.
Maybe you should stop trying to put words or ideas in my mouth or telling me how I think and feel or am choosing to do. If I was choosing to ignore him would I even reply? I'm probably still going to make changes to the face once I get home anyways. I know it's not perfect or done but I figured he deserved a reply, because I like it when people can elaborate on their critique to help me better understand what they want me to change.
Also, yes, collapse your layers, it'll make you more confident in the end when you work on it, especially with hand painted textures.
I believe this is what pior was talking about:
You're probably right. I really do like his stuff, yours is pretty nice too. While he did say "Look at that nostril." you're probably right about the bridge needing to be a little softer. Maybe not as soft as yours, I'm getting a bit of a Voldemort no nose vibe now from a distance straight on since there's no shading but still softer.
and @skayne What's wrong with his proportions? And before everyone bites my head off again think I'm saying it because I'm a huge dick, I don't mean that like I think it's perfect and you're just wrong, I'm just not seeing it, it lines up with all my reference art on ideal proportions etc 1:1. What would you do to fix it? Lengthen the arms and legs? Make his head even smaller again? I'd post my references but I'm at work right now and don't have them, I think some of them are a few pages back in the thread now though.
And again, I don't appreciate other people telling me who I am or how I think. I'm not set in my ways, I'm here to get critique from other talented artists like you guys, not to stick up my nose at everyone and pretend I'm perfect. Just because I can disagree now and again doesn't mean I'm ignoring every crit I get and not concidering them. I can't even disagree with something if I don't stop to concider it first.
also, try EVERYTHING suggested. if you dont like it, change it back. it never hurts to try because you never know when it'll give you new inspiration to do something that's better. especially if this is just practice to improve yourself, there is no harm in trying it all.
If you actually tried to understand what people and especially pior was getting at was that I never actually softened the nose at all, I merely made the light fall on the shapes properly and realisticly. You cannot force shadows and dark spots to appear in places they cannot.
You can however pronounce a sharper nose via the help of highlights.
This is getting really long because I can only type so fast and more people keep replying while I do. Just skip to the bottom I TLDR'd.
Now I'm being criticized for I choose to word it, just because I said 'softened'? There was a hard dark edge there before and now there isn't but that's definitely not called softening. Polycount sure is harsh. "If you actually tried to understand what people and especially pior was getting at" How is this nothing more then accusational and rude?
That's not criticism, there is a difference between taking a critique and defending myself from people who just being mean and throwing personal attacks at me because they don't like me or because I don't agree, nothing to do with the art.
If I sound standoffish and defensive it's because I'm doing exactly that, standing up to people who are attacking me, and all I get are replies that essentially boil down to 'Stop standing up for yourself while we make things up about you and tell you you aren't allowed to disagree with anything, ever.'
If someone 'critiques' me saying I should have made a woman and I say no it's a man, is everyone going to be all over me like bees on honey saying 'You're ignorant, you don't listen, Don't stand up to anyone ever, don't say anything negative to anyone who's been around here longer then you, you should stop being defensive and do everything you're told.'
If we actually want to move away from mudslinging and start talking about art criticism again, Yes I will probably try making the 'light fall on the shapes properly and realistically' (Definitely not softening it), I'm sorry if it seemed like to everyone else that I am just disregarding everyone's critiques, especially where I ask them to elaborate more on it since that is obviously just how I show I'm ignoring people.
At least I don't resort to hurling personal insults and telling everyone else how they think about my replies. You can make up your own mind that I'm some ignorant asshole or something, and I'll just keep plugging away at my art, trying to improve. 'If you actually tried to understand' what I'm saying you'd realize I just want to improve my art is all, why does everyone keep trying to paint me as some sort of monster for this?
DKK I really like your post and I wish more people could be objective like you are, I don't think you sound like a cock bag at all. I'm at work right now so I don't have my references to show you, but I know what you mean about things like how perspective from non orthographic photographs throws things off, how not to match up to drawings exactly since they are just drawings after all., etc.
Again, I'm not just being standoffish because I feel like it or something, I just wish more people could be like DKK and would talk about the facts of the matter instead of coloring it with slander to make their posts longer or something. It doesn't help me in any way and it doesn't make anyone look like a bigger man for doing it.
TLDR I'm not ignoring anyone's opinions, I just disagree with some of it. Obviously the face needs work that's why I am here. DKK gives good, objective critique. Please stop slandering me and try to follow his example. I'm sorry if I'm hard to get along with.
I want to elaborate more but this is already way too long as it is. I'll try out all your critiques and more once I get home because I'm not at my PC right now.
i know its hard to let loose, but you are not your work
you neither have to defend yourself, or take every piece of criticism you can take from here, some might work better than others, some might even not apply, didn't read all of them
basicly what i'm now saying is just subjective and isn't abut your painting and such, as others already pointed out some (to me) very valid points. As far as the proportions goo, i think the biggest issue is the wild mix of pretty stylized proportions with a rather realistic face, it might not be photorealism or really naturally but it has a stylistic direction which seems to fight the style of the body which is rather toony. Now basicly there come 2 options to my mind, either redesign the head or the body - or maybe both combined will work out in the end when done, but to me - right now - it just doesn't work together as a whole.
DKK mentioned that everyone has a certain voice when typing. The quote above could be taken as "You all sound like cock bags, except DKK". It could be a very passive agressive way of insulting everyone. It might not be your intention but that's how it can come across. And reading the last 8 pages of furious defense of your artistic decisions, it's easy to read it as a thinly veiled slap at people who you don't agree with. That's what your voice comes across as. Just a thought.
I only said that because:
I've never once outright called someone a name, nor meant to imply that everyone but DKK was a cock bag, that would be juvenile. I know there are some artists that are bad but pass it off as "It's stylized' and then really DO ignore all the critique, and that's not me.
I think the same statement of how people's voice comes across to others should be watched, not just myself. The only reason I feel like I'm being attacked is because so many people are typing like they're attacking me. If they'd have watched how they typed as well then it wouldn't have come this far.
To me this just sounds snide and condescending, how else am I supposed to interpret it?
Also not ignoring Neox just didn't get to you yet. I'm hearing what you're saying, I know I'm not my work but just the caliber of some of the criticism gets to me.
I like criticism that is "Your art is wrong, here is why." Criticism that is like "Your art is wrong, just fix it." is not as useful, and stuff that is essentially "This is terrible, what's wrong with you?" is just rude and is meant to incense.
How would you suggest I make the face match the body, or the other way around? Originally it was much larger but everyone was like 'It's looks like a child, just fix it." Which wasn't very enlightening. I've changed the body proportions repeatedly and I though I had it good until now everyone is suddenly ripping on it again, but not really posting much in the ways of how they think I should fix it, just saying that it's bad and wrong and that I should change it. I'll have my reference posted later once I get home.
Basically what I am saying is it's easy for lots of people to say 'It's wrong' its not as easy to explain how I should fix it. It bothers me when I get lots of 'Its wrong' It's wrong, but not one 'Here is why, and how to fix it." If it's wrong now its because I don't know how to fix it, just telling me it's wrong won't make it any better.
Sorry if I came of a bit extra rude but I just want to get a point across.
Because it's easy to try to find explanations and go "yes but imo" while you should try to see where all these very experienced people are coming from, assume they are right even if it at first feels wrong.
I know I started getting better the moment I humbled up and really tried to see what all these experienced polycounters meant instead of seeing it as if it was their opinion.
I know you only said it because DKK said it but did you really have to include it in your post? Not really.
As for "If you actually tried to understand what people and especially pior was getting at" it is harsh. But this is PC. And PC IS HARSH. Personally I'd get annoyed, then take a moment to think about what it means. Then I'd realise that I might indeed be missing something since there's quite a few people telling me I'm missing the point.
You say you don't want to imply that everyone is a cockbag or call anyone names outright. But the tone of your writing lends itself well to that kind of interpretation because that's how you come across. It comes back to the attitude thing. You don't have to take everything lying down but when some very talented people point out flaws in your images, you don't go and look at their work and go "LOOK, LOOK WHAT YOU DID!". As pointed out above, Pior didn't do the same thing. Not by far. There's a very important difference and it is a hard earned difference that makes his work look fantastic. You have some ways to go yet to get there.
And lastly, the reason people are writing as if they are attacking you is because they are losing patience with a person who, after 8 pages, still doesn't get it. It's not about throwing your hands up and surrendering but being a little bit more humble, and to accept that some of these people really do know what they are talking about and they have far more experience than you do. Questioning authority is all well and good but sometimes you just need to shut up and listen.
Now go and look at Piors noses and figure out what the difference is between his work and yours. :poly124:
Did I have to include it, maybe not. Was it courteous to address all of his post, I think so.
The reoccurring theme I am seeing is that everyone seems to think that I think I know what's best and that all their critique is under me or something like that. This is not the case, I've repeatedly stated how I like other people's work, listened to their critiques, made lots of changes. If I was really so full of myself he would still look like this:
Please don't say that after 8 pages I am just not getting it. I think I've made a LOT of progress since I started, people seem to be forgetting it didn't start looking like it does now at all.
And all I said is Pior's and my own nose look similar, and I honestly seriously believe they do. Sure mine isn't perfect but there is not a huge stretch of difference I have to change to make them look pretty much the same. Everyone is painting it like my nose is a purple square and I am trying to pass it off as being photo realistic and this is not the case.
I'm going to change it just like everything else I've been working on all this time.
And now to read all of Vig's post. I'm sure it's highly informative and will be useful. And not to say that I think that his is the only informative post or something. If I have to make sure I don't hurt anyone's feelings all the time it makes it really hard to give out any compliments or say anything really without paragraphs of clarifications. Just stop assuming I'm closet hating everyone or something, I'm really not.
EDIT: Lots of good stuff in there but I'll take your advice to step away from my thread for now and post more when I get home. While I don't agree with everything you're saying about me (gasp) there are lots of good points about the art.
(The following is an effort to help you keep your threads railed)
I agree that you're too sensitive to critique and defensive of your mistakes, as most artists are. This thread and 2 others are full of it. No one is putting words in your mouth or telling you what you think, they're restating a pattern of behavior, they've seen. If it needs to degrade to quoting posts and showing examples I guess that is what it will take. But seriously just relax, and open your mind.
I suggest not posting right away with a rebuttal, but sit on your post, evaluate your stuff and try to disconnect from what you've created. It seems (based on the time it takes you to respond) that you're rushing to defend "yourself". Give it a while, chew on what they're saying. Question it for sure. Test it out, please do. Experiment with it and ask for clarification.
Spend more time asking questions when you're learning than defending your choices. If you're going to defend your decisions do it with reason and logic instead of emotion. "Because I like it broken" is quickly wearing everyone out, and they'll leave you to enjoy your broken art by yourself.
Realize you're not going to go from zero to awesome in the span of one or two attempts. There's a fine line between:
"I get what you're saying and I'm having trouble and need to practice"and "I can't really get it to work. I like it this way, so you're wrong."
ANYWAY!
Going back to the face, I'm positive you're still making a few mistakes.
I see a little bit of Hugh, but a lot more Kryten.
Going from the top down.
Hair:
http://www.3dtotal.com/team/Tutorials/2dhair/2dhair.php
Maybe this tutorial will help better than the others. Block in the shapes as they make sense on the 3D model not the 2D texture. This can be hard but its why I suggested using viewport canvas to get the base colors knocked in as guides.
Forehead:
When people where talking about the planes of the face and tossing around illustrations that are exaggerated it was to get you thinking about shading the face and the geometric construction. No one was implying that you take it literally and draw the sharp drastic cranial ridges. At best we had hoped for the topology to follow that somewhat. Think of a skull, picture the roundness, look at our boy Hugh, notice his forehead.
Eyebrows:
It looks like you lifted the eyebrows from a pop diva who's teased, plucked and sculpted her eyebrows. They've retreated from the middle of the forehead and are making a break for his ears. Because they're high, he looks a little surprised.
Eyes:
The the skin under the eyes points to the nostrils on your model, when it should underline the eye and point up to the tear duct. This also leads to him looking surprised.
The pupils are stretched, colored oddly and too visible.
A good rule of thumb is, the iris rests just below the lower lid. The upper lid sits on the dark inner part of the pupil.
It helps to color the white part of the eye a fleshy color instead of "white". There are veins and connecting tissue around the eye, and because the eyes are reflective they catch light bouncing from the surrounding flesh.
Nose:
Been covered by Pior and others really well.
I'll add that the tissue sitting on the nose and under the eyes is a bit like saddle bags riding on the nose.
I also suspect that because of the lack of supporting geometry around the nose the profile is still way too pointy and the nostrils aren't supported. I think you've managed to get around people talking about this by avoiding profile shots...
Cheeks:
Kryton again.
Mouth and Chin:
The coloration is wrong, this comes from it being drawn in B/W then colorized with the same color. It's a darker shade of the overall flesh tone instead of being made up of different colors.
Overall skin tone and coloration tips techniques and theory:
http://www.gfxartist.com/features/tutorials/14033
http://www.gfxartist.com/features/tutorials/14030
I hope everyone is ready for an art dump because here comes an art dump.
First, my main references. None of this is 1:1 its more like a conglomeration of them all. Remember that I'm not trying to just make Hugh Laurie or any other one person, my original intention was semi malnourished/gaunt. Thus, the deep cheek bones, eye sockets and long face, not round and flush like a healthy person. Current skin tone doesn't really reflect this.
Next is stuff to help critiques. Full body with wires in Orthographic, Full body without wires in perspective, and again the same with the head.
And then the texture map in case anyone wants it for any reason.
And last but not least, the hair in ortho since some people expressed they still don't like it and it could use improvement.
I was just messing with the skin texture to try and match people's crits form earlier today. so the nose and a few other places are still a little screwy right now.
EDIT: Skayne just brought up Shapes and Sillhouette so lets have one of those too:
ALSO Skayne brought up a huge point I wanted to touch on:
This is one really common trend I see is lots and lots and lots of hand-painted work and games set exclusively in the Medieval/Fantasy genres. Lots of really nice crates and doors and horse drawn carriages etc, but maybe I just haven't looked far enough but I haven't really seen anything set in like a current era timeline yet has the same hand painted style. Cars, fire hydrants, street lights and dumpsters in a handpainted style.
This character was never meant to be medieval or fantasy, he's wearing modern clothing and is meant to exist in a modern timelime. I don't believe there should be a divide saying that handpainted is exclusive to fantasy and the closer to the current time, the more realistic your models have to become; Just because it doesn't look like Left 4 Dead 2 or Modern Warfare doesn't mean it can't be the year 20XX.
Anyways just hopes that this helps some people imagine the kind of environment he's supposed to blend in with and that I was going for. On that note if anyone knows any hand painted modern time line games, please do share.
And while I wait for replies, I'll pour over Vig's stuff again and make changes now that I'm at my PC.
Yeah that Bruce Willis is definitely hand painted but he's also pretty realistic, which is not what i mean but I didn't really word it well I guess.
Anyways while trying to fix my face and match it to the kind of critique I was getting, it's steadily gone horribly horribly wrong.
Now it just looks like some sort of creepy spaced out semi realistic clay man pushed through a tube half asian Odo Fred Durst. It's completely lost all the essence it had before, it looks nothing like the face I intended it to look like and I am just generally hating it completely.
Everyone keeps pushing for more and more realism, more realistic, do these crits to make it real but the more I do that the further and further it gets from how I want it to look, massive style creep. In it's current form I can finally see what people mean by saying there is too much a difference between the face and body style, it's just horrible now. I personally loved how it looked on the left when it was still black and white because it was nice and crisp, not some hideous washed out ugly mug.
Back to Skayne though. All the points you are highlighting as what's wrong with him are exactly the points I was shooting for deliberately so I'm finding it really hard to find the words respond to your critique so that you'll understand. I've had this same problem before in other threads that I find it incredibly difficult to make other people understand what I am shooting for because words are failing me. I wish I could just project an image and just be like 'This' and everyone would be like 'Oh well now I understand.' but it doesn't work that way.
He has to have a big collar, it's part of the design. I don't know how you could possibly make it not obscure his neck since that is where the collar goes an does since it's there to block the wind on the neck, but I'm not going to just remove the collar because it's hurting his silhouette. Removing it out of the question, that is like saying 'The Xenomorph's head is too long and not working, make it a sphere.' You just don't do that. I've seen loads of characters with big collars and they worked fine so why doesn't mine.
I feel really infirm right now because I'm really struggling to put an abstract concept into words so that you get it. Like... Current existing established fantasy styled hand painting and proportions in a modern setting maybe? I don't know how to put it any better then that and it's really frustrating.
Still, though, some of the things you're insisting upon will not make sense to anyone but you. Which is fine for personal art you're doing on your own time for the sake of nobody but you.
But if you're expecting to use it in a portfolio that other people will be seeing, and judging... Or if you're expecting essentially ANY human interactions directly or indirectly involving it, I would really recommend taking the advices given here seriously. They're not pushing for realism they're pushing for sense. Some semblance of accuracy, or reason.
I think at the moment you could really stand to take a step back and do a lot of research. I don't mean google image search, I mean studying professionals, concept art, anatomy books, take some time to do some real-world sketching and drawing. I'm not a 3D artist, I'm a 2D artist, but I can tell you that right now you're pulling largely from your own mind. You're treating your references like you're treating the people here, looking at them but not really utilizing them because they're not "exactly your style" or what you're going for. Study and some personal drawing will help, because it's your mental knowledge base right now that's lacking more than anything - and building that up will help you in all things.
If you want to push this, with that...back of head...hair...braid(?), and your current design. By all means, nobody's stopping you. Complete it in your own time and be happy that you accomplished your goal just as you wanted it and liked it. Every artist has the right to be happy with their work.
But if you put it up for critique, expect good, honest critique. That's exactly what you're getting right now.
I think it looks a little better now, even if were the coat not there the shoulders might be a little too low now.
God I hate the face now though, he looks like an insufferable douchebag. If he was a face I would punch him. In the face. That is going to get changed quick.
and #Two Listen, all really great critique, I'll try to keep that in mind and find more and more references, It's getting late where I am right now so my mind is a little discombobulated but like, it's all really useful, I wish I had something more specific to say back. I appreciate it.