Hand Painted Face -Critique Needed
polycounter lvl 7
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Hey everyone, I haven't done much hand painted work before and I am having a ton of trouble with this model. It keeps coming out all wrong for how I want it to look.
I want it to look tall and gaunt, like deep cheeks or strong cheek bone or whatever its called, but it keeps coming out looking like Handsome Squidward. If anyone could give me some brush tips, pointers or a paintover or anything that'd be great.
Hugh Laurie was the closest face to how I want him to look I could find.
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I'm reshaping the head a little bit now and adding some geo, though I don't want to spiral out of control with polies here, the idea is as low as possible.
Could you highlight where you mean the shadows are off though? I thought they looked okay personally just it's the wrong face. I'm not seeing it and it would help if you pointed out what you mean or else I'll probably just do it again.
I made you a quick paintover. It's not the best, but it's late!
I think you ought to be more conscious about the shapes that you want to capture and how they respond to lighting. The most obvious example of this is the the lips. The upper and lower lip are about equally bright, while, in real life, your upper lip points down (and is unlit) and your lower lip points up (and is lit). Another example is the cheeck, which has a hard edge between light and dark, while people don't have sharp edges on their faces. The upper part of the eye socket (between the eye and the brow) seems to turn darker the higher it gets, suggesting an inward arc, when it should be an outward arc. The rule for lowpoly lighting is usually very simple, the light comes from the front and above. All you have to ask is if something is pointing up or down. The cheekbones point upwards, but not all the way down to below the nose, and mostly not as much as the nose either (as you suggested it by painting the cheeks in one slab of value).
Furthermore, you'll really need to get a better grasp on the anatomy. I wouldn't expect you to take years of study before finishing this, but it's not too hard to closely compare your model to reference or your own face. The shape of the eye, for example, is plain wrong, as are the sizes of the nostril and the philtrum. The mouth is very small; a rough guideline is that the corners of the mouth should line up with the pupils.
Oh, one last thing to remember: just because eyes are white doesn't mean they glow. Eyes aren't exactly in the most light-receiving area of the face, so they're generally darker than you think.
I don't agree that I'm some sort of rube who needs years of study though just because I got the direction of light and face shape a little off. I appreciate all your other pointers though, and I'm going to quickly do a rough paintover with that in mind. I'm having real trouble getting getting the UV to match up with the face because in photoshop its 100% flat and it becomes hard to tell what is where when you work in it too long.
ps, he reminds me of christopher walken
There, decidedly marked improvement, right? Except in the actual mesh, which is still being a problem. And it didn't even take years of study. :poly136:
I know what you mean, though I never squished it inward myself at all, the UVs just aren't working out for me at all. I'm having trouble drawing the face and modeling the face to the same shape, I want it to be thin and tall yet it keeps coming out all wrong.
there was a great paintover some posts back that had the basics , really read what he wrote .
Fixed up the face mesh a bit, no change to the texture yet.
@Johny/; do you mean now or in the original image? It wasn't that I wasn't following my refs then, I simply wasnt using Hugh Laurie at the time, I can show you the ref I had from before which is actually pretty close to it, its just the lighting on his face was directly from the front, not slightly above, which lead to how it looked.
And by paint over some posts back do you mean Zwebbie's because I thought I followed it pretty well..
Anyways, I fixed a few things by reuving it, but its mostly a planar map directly on the face to get things started right now, I have to fix the jaw in particular as it's gotten too narrow looking.
But seriously.....you got the painting skills, you just need to refine how you start out. It's getting a lot better!
Haha yes I know, I was thinking it was looking too much like Walken as Max Shreck myself as well. From Handsome Squidward to Max Shreck, there's a six degrees separation for you.
While its looking better as a head/face now, I'm thinking he feels a bit too old for what I was going for, like Bill from L4D is old but he is believably looking, this guy looks frail and unlikeable.
and now with wires, for zakhar2. EDIT: Though the head is still changing loads the more I work on it. New image soon.
Ugh, I tried to soften up the wrinkles and deep creases a bit but it just went horribly wrong. And here I thought I was making some progress.
What I WANT it to scream when you look at is "I'm between twenty and thirty years old, grew up years before my time and now live confidently in a world torn by war and monsters." If you don't immediately think this then it's wrong and needs more work.
And not "I'm the goddamn Frakenstein's Monster." Which is all I seem to be getting.
I don't understand what I am doing wrong though, the more wrinkles there are, the older it looks, yet more I try to remove them, the more a stupid amorphous inhuman blob I get. I don't some random bald space marine or chizeled Superman face yet that's all I am getting and it's frustrating even looking at photos of teenagers and stuff.
Shading on the nose is a little funny right now and the ear is messed up because I was resizing the head and didn't fix the UV yet. I'm still not sure yet though, something about the face feels too bulging outwards, not human face like, too weird.
Excellent critique. Generous instruction too if I may add.
...and yeah the rest of us noticed you said nothing about anyone being "a rube." I guess some just can't ignore that little sting that can come with critique.
In my opinion there is a difference between constructive criticism and saying someone needs a better grasp of anatomy that years of study will take.
And -I- noticed you never noticed that I noticed and pointed out that it was all great and useful critique too. Did you notice that?
Probably not the best example but you get the idea.
Also I'm not sure the ears will work in their current form, I think you'd have to model them in at least a little bit.
Right now I think the way you're modeling is destroying any opportunity you have to properly define the planes of the face. You could properly shade it on the texture and it will not hold up if the underlying modeling isn't supporting it correctly.
Now your in the awkward position of creating the texture first and hoping it will hold up on its own, tail wagging the dog so to speak.
Just like how your original image rode rough shot over the planes of the face, your model needs to be redone with the same focus on the planes of the face, AND using quads, loops, rings and the occasional triangle.
http://philippefaraut.com/store/reference-casts/planes-of-the-face.html
Also check out the gallery... Philippe Farau is simply amazing.
Check out Dave Kings video tutorials about speed modeling he has some great tips on creating a head from scratch, that lays down a foundation of proper edge loops.
[ame]
Once you learn to model with edges and loops, you can down and up res the model fairly easily, you can take it to high poly, or down to iPhone spec without really screwing up the model, its a much more efficient way to work.
I don't think Zwebbie meant to single you out in that way... Getting a good grasp of anatomy DOES take years of study and practice for most of us. I think he was just saying that even despite this there were some simple things you could easily adjust to improve your model/texture.
The human head is less wide in front than in the back so that could be part of the "bulging" look of your model. The cheekbones are probably much wider than they should be right now, especially compared to the photo reference you included. Perhaps it might help to go ahead and add more polygons to get a better grasp of the shape you want and then reduce it again later.
Don't really want to add fuel to this fire but he specifically said that he WOULDN'T expect you to take years to study anatomy just that you could probly grab some ref online and fix the model and texture accordingly.
His crit was quite frankly excellent and obviously he spent the time to help you out man.
I think your texture painting skills are fairly good to be honest you should probly like people before me had said redo the actual head model to get a better effect from the texture keep going though I look forward to the finish product
The only point I want to make its not like this is the first face model I have ever done. That's all. I'm getting a real "play with your blocks while the adults do the real work.' vibe mixed in with all the good crits.
On that point, I'll have another update tomorrow.
Oh and @Vig, it's 'N64 Golden Eye' lowpoly because I want it to be low poly. Have you even looked at the faces in WoW for example? It's not that out there.
Cheese posted a good example, currently my head is more polygons then I originally intended, so I might use that as a guidline to reduce some that are unnecessary.
Also without further ado, current update to the head. No changes in the texture, this is solely reshaping the topology.
I think Ill try to find some more references, it still feels a little narrow/wide in the cheeks to cheek bone area. I -want- him to have like gaunt sunken cheeks, but not to look unnatural. Like, that stringy malnourished look. Oh and the ears are obviously wrong, UV is all messed up over there as Im still focusing on face-shape.
Saving a few polys isn't all its was cracked up to be back in the day. Most processors, yes even iPhones can push a decent amount of triangles so that we don't have to don't have to go back to super nasty ultra triangulated nightmares. It's also becoming more and more unacceptable to have characters speak and not open their mouths. As soon as the face starts deforming its easy to tell who is working efficiently and cleanly and who is not.
Advantages of using loops and rings:
About your model, if you're interested in making every tri count you could cut out about 15-30 and properly round out the nose with 4-8 of those that where saved. If you're going to use "but the tech can't handle it" as an excuse, the make sure you're using every last tri to its fullest.
I'm sure there are some games that you can find that still triangulate heads and use wonky geometry but I'm not sure that's the best way, and I'm not sure because they do it, you should close yourself off to exploring another way to work that might offer more flexibility and more believable results.
Food for thought:
Taken from here: http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/product/213/Head-Modeling-for-Games
This illustrates it pretty well. You could remove and collapse a few rings and loops on even this (which he does later) and get something lower poly in the range your looking at without resulting to a crazy triangulated nightmare.
That is the last I'll say about edge flow, take it or leave it, its up to you.
You're the only one here trying to imply that I think loops and rings are unimportant, even if you are just mocking me. When did I ever call anyone a dumb bastard or say their methods are wrong?
Considering I spent roughly the last four months working with a team on Iphone tech, atlas-ing all my textures and optimizing everything because it can only render up to roughly 7,000 tris at a time, I think I'm well versed enough to say that it obviously can't run SC2.
I don't know where you get this idea that you are the only person who knows what is the current standard for 3D graphics, not to mention ignoring all my other valid points about the divide between 2D and 3D that you didn't address for whatever reason. Maybe you think its unacceptable for a face not to animate, but I think it's pretty obvious this face was never made to deform in any way, shape, or form.
I'm a 3D Artist, not a two year old. I know what loops and rings are. I'm well aware there are wasted tris on this model, that's why it's called a work in progress. It's when a model is still being worked on, you know? As in not finished yet. I'm not saying it's low poly because DS or Iphone tech cant handle it, I'm making it low poly because I choose to and that is my decision. The only reason I brought up those systems was to refute your point that everyone in the world is working highest poly and only high poly. It's okay to accept you were wrong.
If you started to act like an adult maybe then we could have a civil conversation on current tech standards. =/ If you'd like to get off your high horse I can show you some of my other, higher poly, faces I have modeled that were made to animate and have all the proper edgeloops and flows in place.
I'm sure you're a good person but with this kind of behavior I just sorta feel sorry for you. I'm not going to be intimidated or something just because you have a higher post count or more popular then I am or do or something like that when I know what I'm saying is valid and you are just making fun of me like a grade school bully.
Dude, take a chillaxative. It sounded to me like a little friendly ribbing, and his crits have been spot on. From what I understand, he's trying to teach you something that everyone agrees is important but you, and he's just poking fun.
That said, you're model is improving greatly. I actually think that your painting is fine, and your latest iteration of the mesh is vastly improved; the planes of the face seem to read a LOT better. I think the shape of the skull in the rear could use a little tweaking, and I think part of why your face seems odd is that there doesn't appear to be any definition between the jaw and the neck. Anyways, keep up the work, but relax a little! No one here's trying to offend.
I want criticism, or else I wouldn't be here asking for it. Just because I don't follow it all to the dot or have a different opinion doesn't automatically make me the bad guy though. =/
I almost feel like making a new user account just to break from the stigma everyone seems to associate with me. 'Boot-guy,' 'Robot-guy.'
On that note, here is the face again. I optimized the triangles now that the shape is working out better, its 172 tris now, I might be able to reduce it more but i don't want to sacrifice too much of the detail.
I know what you mean by lack of definition near the neck though, especially since there is no neck there for it to be defined yet. My next task is going to be to work on the rest of the head now that the face is mostly good.
I might recommend dropping photos on the spots you want to paint well, dirty them up with some ps filters, paint over them, and learn that way. Also showing a low spec model in context (how it will be viewed on its platform of choice) can help. Even Marcus Fenix looks bad when your more zoomed in than the developers expected.
This and only this.
As for photo overlays, I actually was putting pieces of real faces into it and painting over them, just not very extensively. I sorta felt like I was cheating or plagiarizing reality or taking the easy way out or whatever you want to call it. Usually I'd hold them up side to side and try to imitate the face rather then paint it over directly. That face's lips are actually mostly my lips. :poly136:
You're right about the distance too, you'll probably never see the face as close as I am showing you now. I figured a larger image would be easier to critique, even if its highlighting parts that normally wouldn't be seen.
good luck dude. and try not to be so butt hurt! remember this is the INTERNET! hahah
Haha yeah. Anyways, one last sneak peek at the rest of the model you won't see again for a while, mainly because its still pretty preliminary and terrible.
Bad proportions all over, etc. You just can rip it apart loads since even I know it's not that great right now.
Well... just because the engine you worked with was chugging at 7,000 tris (which seems closer DS spec? my company does PC, Wii and Iphone/ipad games) doesn't mean other engines are doing that. I suggest you check out the Epic Citadel demo that was recently released, its pushing more than 7,000 tris per screen, granted that Iphone 4 and ipad but that will quickly become the norm as apple moves to phase out the old tech like they always do at lightening speed.
*Edited*
Never-mind. Everyone else has pretty much said it. It's really not worth it.
madmuffin if you spent less time defending yourself and just going "Thanks for the help" chances are your model and texture would be better by now. Just because you claim yourself a "3D ARTIST" doesn't mean you have to be ignorant.
Also, I'd like to point out that this is meant to be a community of sharing and learning, and it's not going to do you much good, lashing out like that when all Vig meant to do was offer help.
Given that this is a forum, and most advice is conveyed through text, sometimes emotion is something that can get lost in translation. But even then, if anyone were to come off as rude, it still wouldn't do you any good to just jump to conclusions and make an ass out of yourself now would it? Remember that if you assume, it makes an ass out of u and me (yes that was a bad joke)
So suck it up, concentrate on the important bits that people type, look at your own work in comparison to examples, and just tweak what doesn't look right. Get stuck, ask for help, read the crits, and be on your way. Simple as that, there's simply no reason anyone would have a vendetta against you in the first place.
Either way, I've had my say, just wanted to get that off me chest, let that be the end of that.
/rantoff
peace
I'm being insulted and made fun, and yet for some reason I keep being told that I'm the one who should calm down, that I'm the one who is lashing out, that I shouldn't defend myself when real honest critique degenerates into personal insults and just say 'Thank you' when people are being flat out rude and offensive.
I'm sorry so many people here have a hard time filtering out their attitude when all I want to do is make a nice, low poly model. I didn't realize that anything less the 20,000 polygons was so stigmatized like this, or that I'm a horrible deranged individual for not putting in the edge loops to make it animate when I never intended for it to animate anyways.
achillesian has been one of the few rational people among others in this thread and I thank them for that, I just wish there could be more objective and constructive critisism that isn't colored by ignorance and personal preference.
I'm still going to keep posting updates though and listening to actual critique, even if all I get is unprovokedly bashed over and over just because it's me.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41232
perhaps this thread will be of more interest to you
There is no point whatsoever in arguing at all. By continuing this misunderstanding, you are drawing attention away from your model while you really don't seem to want to. So just drop it and move on.
You were making great progress, don't let a silly quarrel stop that!;)
That's how I feel, I just wish people knew when to drop it. I'm at work right now but I'll have another update once I get home.
That last post you made kind of contridicts it though, but it's fine. Let's take this as a clean start. There's no point in us artists getting in fights, we all need each other to progress:thumbup:
Can't wait to see the update!:)
Wait what? The best advice you got was to basically ignore what everyone says and do what you want?
Your model has improved loads from the first post to the latest update so something is working.
One point though. This is Polycount, everyone is made fun of to some extent. You might as well get used to it, it's nothing personal. And having a thick skin is good for an artist, makes you less likely to be hurt when people point out your flaws. Just a thought...