"It's most beneficial if they post at the end of each stage.
Post the sculpt/model before unwrapping.
Post the unwrap before baking and materials.
Post the final model.
"
Yes!!! But if it's neither, you are only starting the project and want some help, or stopped in the middle at a certain point, wish to post and see what people would suggest you to do otherwise in terms to achieve your task?
I use Technical Talk section for that "<.<"
As for the name I can only think "not so pimping preview" <.< Or I missed out the name you guys have been voting for.
I can see that. Especially if you thought the name was "Pimping Previews" as in check out these pimping previews. But its a dual purpose forum its a "forum to show off your artwork and get feedback."
My understanding of tech talk was a place "to ask technical questions about 2D/3D software, exporting, level editors etc. Post shaders and scripts."
Why is photoshop CS4 slower than CS2?
I get this error when I export to ASE, what gives?
Anyone know of a good "find n-gon" script?
Max turns my spheres blue when I don't use it for a long time?
Technique questions sometimes pop up. lets discuss the best joint topology. But normally that stuff comes to light when someone points it out in a P&P thread.
Things like critiques on topology, painting technique, even unwrapping all end up in the critique forum P&P.
Tech talk: Problems to solve.
P&P: Bow before the amazing art or give them a nudge in the right direction.
I'm not trying to pigeon hole your posting style just explain how I've seen it working.
I would like to chime in to agree with John Warner. Polycount used to have a lot of different people like, you know, modders. The front page used to be about modding.
These days we have pros, and people who want to learn how to "tighten up the graphics on level 3". Hardly any 2D at all even.
I can see that. Especially if you thought the name was "Pimping Previews" as in check out these pimping previews. But its a dual purpose forum its a "forum to show off your artwork and get feedback."
My understanding of tech talk was a place "to ask technical questions about 2D/3D software, exporting, level editors etc. Post shaders and scripts."
Why is photoshop CS4 slower than CS2?
I get this error when I export to ASE, what gives?
Anyone know of a good "find n-gon" script?
Max turns my spheres blue when I don't use it for a long time?
Technique questions sometimes pop up. lets discuss the best joint topology. But normally that stuff comes to light when someone points it out in a P&P thread.
Things like critiques on topology, painting technique, even unwrapping all end up in the critique forum P&P.
Tech talk: Problems to solve.
P&P: Bow before the amazing art or give them a nudge in the right direction.
I'm not trying to pigeon hole your posting style just explain how I've seen it working.
I understand what you are trying to explain Vig.
A week ago there was a person who wanted to discuss the head topology and posted his thread in 2d/3d pimp n previews. 2 hours later I found that thread was moved to technical talk, so I figured the technical talk is the place to discuss both. issues regarding your topology strategy, and the technical technical talk the one you just explained.
i'm glad you didn't pm. i'll reply once for the sake of discussion, but lets do a lil' pm thing if you want to keep going.
fair point. yes, I do get pissy sometimes. this topic in particular has me upset fbecause i feel as if i've seen a few people be stomped in a few ways and my justice button is going off.
truth be told, i guess i just don't care. I dont hate anyone, i'm not trying to be dominant, there are just so many reasons why being soft is pointless. I spent a lot of time saying "hey, i dig what you're doing.. but I kinda think that maybe this other thing is cool. but hey, maybe it's just me" -- and really, it's just a waste of goddamn time, because it's ambiguous, and if there's a value conflict, it's next to impossible that speaking that way is going to make it clear.. either way, perhaps I am going to war in one-too-many-contexts. I'll think about it.
Here's a perspective from 'the other side of the fence' such as it is. I'm fairly new to 3d and game art. I'm not in the industry and probably won't be any time soon. I don't post WIP/waywo because my work's not there yet...I don't need help with composition and lighting when I'm still learning how to make good shapes and get my bakes right. I'm at a point where I know what's wrong with my art, I just need to figure out how to fix it. I don't post questions in Tech Talk because, and I'm not shitting here, every single one of my questions in the last year has already been asked and answered, either here or with a google search. And yet I come here every single day and read everything new in general discussion, p&p and tech. All of 'em. It's a rare day that I don't learn something new or get inspired all over again from PC.
What I want out of the revamped PC is informational organization...an easier way to find answers to my problems, to find the latest innovation from the people who are doing it, the fresh perspective on cg art. The last thing I want to do is stifle someones creativity or willingness to post, but if PC is going to be a place to exchange ideas and information, that exchange has to have some sort of structure to it. I think things like thread tags and mouseover images goes a long way towards being unobtrusively helpful. A big part of my learning process has been seeing how other people make their art, and a lot of that has come through seeing wires and UVs in the P&P threads. Whether it's the OP posting updates or crits from other members, there's more sexy info lurking in P&P than anywhere else on the internet, especially for people like me that are just learning the ropes.
The waywo thread has a ton of cool stuff in it, but it's a fucking braindrain to look through. It's all over the place and hard to sort through the non sequitur crits and backpatting around the art. It's also fucking massive...god forbid you didn't save that image you wanted, it'd take you half the day to find it again. It seems like a good idea on paper, but in practice it's messy. There ought to be a better way to implement it.
Again, this is just my two cents from a newbie who really likes the place. You're the people who are making and posting the art that inspires and educates me, so in the end I guess whatever makes you all more productive/happy works for me.
Hows it go, "There's no such thing as asking a foolish question only fools that don't ask?"
The problem with "I'm not there yet I'm just figuring it out" is that other people are having the same problems and can learn for your posts also. Plus when someone asks, people normally chime in with all different suggestions. Google might give you an answer but people here might come up with 2-3 ways that are better or they might help you or other people in other ways on other projects.
Sometimes I know my answer isn't "quite what they're looking for" but because I post the ball gets rolling. The question might go unanswered if no one starts things off. I think people are paranoid about ruining their rep or saying something stupid and they just need to get over it. No one ever learns to run without learning to walk, no one learns to walk without first falling down. The faster you face plant the faster you get learn to run.
"There's no such thing as asking a foolish question only fools that don't ask."
It's a fair point. In my defense, I'm usually googling stuff like references or mental ray settings...stuff that isn't really game art related and I don't want to clutter Tech Talk with. The questions I have that are already answered on here are things like 'why does my normal map have wavy lines where the cylinder is'...do we really need another one of those posts? I really am early enough in the learning curve that it's stuff that's been asked and answered ad nauseum, usually by several people with varying perspectives. There's also times where I kinda know the answer, I just need a nudge in the right direction, or need to find that post I read 2 months ago...stuff that would again be clutter because I'm too lazy to search. When I finally get to the point where things aren't so basic and I'm plateaued on the learning curve, I'll certainly post questions and hopefully other people can get as much from the answers as I do.
I am conflicted about WAYWO. I love the aspect of being able to go there and just look at a lot of good art. I love that if you post there your work will be seen by lots of people. I dislike that it's not a good place for comments. And it bothers me that people would just view that and not other WIP threads. I think the preview that links to each thread is a great middleground.
I really like the idea of eliminating WAYWO, but I also fear it. All of that traffic channeled into a handful of other threads which continue to get bumped and push smaller threads off of the front page. And what can you do short of shamelessly bumping your own thread to get it back up there? Actual progress updates aren't that frequent and in the meantime your thread just sits there lifeless.
I guess the Dominance Wars are a great example of WIP forums without WAYWO. There is still a large amount of politics involved. You have to keep posting in other people's threads to get yourself noticed so those people post in your thread and it can be a lot of work just to get your thread viewed.
For me, I feel like there's pressure to post in WAYWO just to get your work seen. Every WIP thread I have created has gotten posts, but never gone past two pages. Maybe it's just a fear that I still have lingering from other forums, where you will only get posts if you're good or have made friends, but I always feel like if I create a thread it's not going to get looked at. I have no way of knowing if people are viewing it and just not commenting or if it's being overlooked. On other places, beside the tread title and latest post there's a number of thread views. I like being able to see how much I am being viewed. However, that is like stars in its own way. Maybe make it so that only the thread starter can see how much interest their thread is getting?
Well, however I feel about not getting my threads seen. Polycount is still the best community around for equal opportunity thread viewing and commenting, so eliminating WAYWO could work.
I'm gonna talk about how I use the Internet for a minute. There's a bunch of stuff I want to mention in case it's helpful, but I think I'll end up with a wall of text if I try to tie it all together, so I'm going to boldify the main ideas for your reading convenience.
I almost never post on GA because their site design feels like an explosion of contests, ads, and subforums, and there's pictures everywhere. I don't even know where to begin. But the only subforum I check regularly there is the Finished Work forum because it usually has a good combination of good new work that's inspiring and kind of shoddy work that's educational in the way that I can see what's wrong with it and try to avoid making the same mistakes. The same thing is true of finished and in-progress work on P&P here, but that page of nothing but pictures and star-ratings they have over there is pretty slick and faster than reading over thread titles.
When I post in WAYWO, it's because it's the closest I can get to posting anonymously or temporarily. I might be alone on this one, but I don't want a reputation or any kind of perceived Internet persona when it comes to my work. Perhaps I'm paranoid, but I'm troubled by the notion that if I keep posting stuff I don't finish or that's of low quality or I need a lot of help with things here, or I just post things people don't like, that when I start applying for industry jobs, someone might recognize me and be like, "Oh, no. Don't hire that guy. He's a douche. Just look what he posts on Polycount". I know that's probably not likely to happen unless I make an enormous ass of myself, but it keeps me from starting new threads in P&P anyway. In WAYWO, it's almost like posting something on an imageboard. Maybe I'll get some crits or even some encouragement, maybe not, but either way it'll be lost in the din of a thousand other posts and largely forgotten, so I can get some feedback and there's a lot less pressure to be awesome.
To put that in terms I think more people can relate to: Posting in something like the WAYWO thread is more like just showing something your working on to a friend or coworker and getting a few words of feedback, where starting a new thread in P&P is more like pinning your stuff up on the wall and asking for a group critique.
Personally, the people I know offline who I might otherwise casually show my work to in such a manner know nothing about 3d, games, or art in general; so when it's time for a little "hey cool, man" or "the wrists are too thin and the eyes are a little big" to keep me going, I look for somewhere to post online to get the same effect. Recently, the closest thing has been WAYWO, or to a lesser extent, the sketchbook threads. What would be ideal, I think, is a completely temporary board (more like a chat room with pictures almost, I guess) where things get purged after so long so we can stop in and see what people are working on currently or post up some stuff to get a few words about it, but then it's gone after xx posts or x days instead of lingering there as a record of what you were working on 6 months ago.
Just my thoughts on it, of course. I'm not suggesting any of that would necessarily be best for everyone.
.I don't need help with composition and lighting when I'm still learning how to make good shapes and get my bakes right
well that's kindof putting the cart before the wheels honestly. But maybe that's a side effect of gameart getting too technical, and aspiring 3D artists who just want to be 'good at threedee', leaving many aspects uncovered. I dunno.
But anyways. I think the shift in quality is something that inevitably happens when forums grow bigger. I doesnt mean that stuff get better or worse, its more about the cosy home feeling fading aways because of so many things being posted.
I am actually wondering if the thread/linear nature of a ubb forum fits anymore. We know that adding subforums is not a solution. In that regard I admire CGhub. I don't think it's the best system yet, but at least they tried some sort of a paradigm shift with the collage approach.
I would say the worse way to go would be Zbrushcentral. "WOOOOOOOOOO you're a master you should be toprowwww!" - to me it's obvious that its not the solution so we can eliminate that already.
I think a step in the right direction would be thread thumbnails.
Then maybe, a more efficient thread filtering system. And making the filter box as a big part of the forum layout. Something suggesting 'what would you like to browse today', in a way :
One could be interested in seing the most recent posts, somebody else would maybe want to see only threads with 3+ pages, maybe someone in a helping mood would like to see the posts made by the most recently registered users, and so on.
This would also let the viewer filter post by thread starters without having to use the broken search feature. (type Belias in there, instant acid trip!)
Scriptspot did something similar recently, a big search box becoming the core of their search engine. To me it made it one of the best script website just because of that.
well that's kindof putting the cart before the wheels honestly. But maybe that's a side effect of gameart getting too technical, and aspiring 3D artists who just want to be 'good at threedee', leaving many aspects uncovered. I dunno.
Sorry, I didn't explain myself very well there. I actually have a fairly strong grasp of composition and things like color theory, light sourcing, etc from a graphic design background. I could do block outs and color palettes all day long, but don't really have the skills to replace the placeholders with anything decent. Completing the puzzle for me is learning how to actually do the technical end of modeling and texturing, then start putting things out there for people to crit.
I am actually wondering if the thread/linear nature of a ubb forum fits anymore. We know that adding subforums is not a solution. In that regard I admire CGhub. I don't think it's the best system yet, but at least they tried some sort of a paradigm shift with the collage approach.
I actually had this discussion with my wife a few days ago, about the move to integrate various forms of online interaction and how the 'standard' of things like forums will work in the long run. Stuff like Google Wave and some other tech being thrown around in the university system shows promise to integrate things like forums, image hosting, video and blogs into a multithreaded environment that offer more flexibility for people to choose how they get their information. I think what we're talking about here is a basic idea of that...giving people more options in a transparent and unobtrusive way. In the end, I think things like forums are just going to be a piece of an extended system.
@Artifice I wish there was a way just to view all active threads in a list, and if you rolled over the thread title and held it there for a second, it would show you the first pic posted in the thread.
Yup Artifice, exactly.
I think the one thing to avoid tho, is to go the 'social networking' way. I know it's tempting and I think some forums are actually trying that already, but it could become quite a crybaby corner hehe. Again, I could see it happen on ZBC and become a fanboy wetdream/mess.
It would be nice to gather example links showing nice filtering systems in action. Anyone?
(I see what you mean now about the technical sides of things now. I think that now its really about observing how others do it and slowly learn from there - gameart takes time! But youll get there, especially with that visual background that you have. good luck!)
@Artifice I wish there was a way just to view all active threads in a list, and if you rolled over the thread title and held it there for a second, it would show you the first pic posted in the thread.
Live forum you mean? I remember RIOT games have used it on their league of legends forums.
The updated thread takes the first place in the slot and if you hover the mouse cursor over it it'll show you a message box showing the brief of the OP.
@ZacD: If I'm not mistaken, Adam said the mouseover image thumbnails are planned. The list is a great idea, the question is how to determine what's 'active'. It'd be cool for the user to have (easy) control over the displayed threads...things like only display before a certain date, only posted in in the last 12 hours, only threads with images, only threads over 3 pages, etc. Then have the option to display with a thumbnail, display as a list, display with the first line of the post and on and on.
What would really be cool is to have everything tagged and threaded together, sort of like a wiki. All images are databased and indexed by tags, so you could view all the images on the site. Or you could view all the images by member x, or all the images in a thread, etc. Then you could click through one image to the post it came from, or to images with the similar tags or whatever. One user could choose to set his polycount up to look just like it does now, another could choose to have it like cghub (something like 'main page: display most recent 30 images')
(this is all hypothetical...I'm not actually suggesting any of this for PC, at least in the foreseeable future)
What it really comes down to is three things: how you organize your data, how you display your data and how you link your data. The real freedom would come with a system that opened display and linking to the user as opposed to the author or admin. When you break the linear system of current forums, you end up with a lot of new and interesting options.
Just to validate John's post a bit here, Polycount is definitely losing something for me as well.
Kinda makes me sad. I like a lot of things about this community, but shit like "This isn't your blog" turn me off hugely. It's pretty blatant censorship, which I can't stand. Like John said, it essentially amounts to certain community members projecting what their beliefs of useful discussion are to everyone, which is ridiculous. Especially because, personally, I've found a lot of the threads those very people say are useless are more useful than the threads posted by the censors.
Not only that, if we're attracting the kinds of "artists" that only want to talk about art, it's a community I'd say will inevitably go in a bad direction, as that is pretty unhealthy, and uncreative attitude.
I suppose for me it's a bit of a different perspective though, because as I move more towards the design and scripting side of game development the parts of polycount I can connect with becomes more limited to the creative side and the discussion side. With both those being increasingly limited... things just aren't looking that great.
Like Ninja's said, it feels like there used to somehow be a bit more variety.
And r13's reply to John definitely didn't inspire confidence in the leadership around here. (Calling someone and idiot or retard? Why don't you just pull out poopy head next eh?)
Wow... I feel like I have to tread carefully, posting in this thread... So I'll keep it short.
I like the WAYWO thread, a lot. If there's one thread I'll make 100% certain to check whenever I come on here, it's that one. I LIKE seeing all the latest stuff people have going on. I LIKE getting a whole bunch of it at once, giving me a lot of variety in one go. I LIKE the amount of criticism on there. No, it's usually not much, but I'm sure if people wanted more feedback, they could make their own thread. I LIKE seeing the huge variance is the skill level, be it seasoned pro, or newbie just starting out. And even more, I really like seeing people's gradual improvement through the things they post in WAYWO.
I LIKE having somewhere to throw some piece of art I've been working on in, be it traditional painting or 3D art. Why would I make my own thread to post one image of a painting I've done...? I like the feeling of getting something out there, having pride in working on my own art. But the pressure of starting my own thread for that... can feel daunting. Like others have said, in WAYWO, you know you'll get the largest amount of people possible taking a look.
Most of all, I can't help but think, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Why get rid of WAYWO? It's clear that it's a very popular thread, so why does it need to go? If you're not a fan, choose another thread, no one is making you click on it.
Okay, so keeping this short turned out to be a big LIE... but my point is really just this: I like the WAYWO thread, and would be very upset to see it go.
Well Tulk on one side you got 'idiot', on the other side you got 'coward', caps locks, and some kind of weird self-fueled idealism. I think it evens out pretty nicely hehe.
To go back to the subject. I think that the very simple core of the issue is that, the change we feel happening is simply because PC grew so big and yet the personal goals that posters try to achieve are much less defined than before.
It used to be members deciding to get their hands dirty and struggle with game engines and mod tools to get amateur yet vibrant products across. Mods, maps, ingame characters. (for either the art of it, the technical challenge itself, or even just for laughs). It's a very targeted aim, yet it spreads across many disciplines (2d, 3d, animation, even composition for map making).
This is what I like/liked about PC, and this is what drives me to browse the forums everyday - that one desire for completion that game artist have, and the variety and creativity that use to come from that (BrotherGrimms anyone?)
I also have no shame to admit that I would gladly filter threads like 'my game art teacher told me to post here, so here is that hand model I just made, how can I tighten the normalmaps please?', out of my daily browsing. I am all for knowledge sharing, but I am also a firm advocate of learning by facing challenges and trying to get better. But maybe it's just a matter of self taught VS game school education, I dunno. Plus there are great schools out there too so mybe it's all irrelevant, I dunno.
And yeah it's funny too because I feel very different from Mezz, maybe because of being somewhat of an oldtimer. For me PC is about seing something developed from start to finish, in a thread to go back to. Only a painting to post? Well, start a thread with it, and keep it alive by posting more paintings!! It's as simple as that.
I guess I am not much of the kind to just want to get tons of cool pictures in my face as fast as possible. I'd rather enjoy the feeling of knowing that someone is currently crafting out a kickass texture, then coming back to the thread the next day to see progress and/or sharp constructive criticism.
The other reason why I feel attached to that individual thread structure, is that I know that the best feedback I got in the past leading to personal growth and progress, came from just that - posting progress threads, feeding them regularly, and collecting feedback from there to then improve the current or next piece. It doesnt need threads bumps and updates every day ; it doesnt even need to be finished in the end. But later on it's progress you remember making, and growth to build upon.
To go back to the subject. I think that the very simple core of the issue is that, the change we feel happening is simply because PC grew so big and yet the personal goals that posters try to achieve are much less defined than before.
It used to be members deciding to get their hands dirty and struggle with game engines and mod tools to get amateur yet vibrant products across. Mods, maps, ingame characters. (for either the art of it, the technical challenge itself, or even just for laughs). It's a very targeted aim, yet it spreads across many disciplines (2d, 3d, animation, even composition for map making).
As much as anything that seems to be just due to the increased complexity of game art now adays. You can't knock out a complete top notch model in a day or two now. It's all become incredibly complex so that communal spirit that came from the likes of everyone texturing up an SDK that someone has posted has diminished considerably. Given that we're not likely to return to the halcyon days of Quake 3 any time soon, the mood here is something that we're stuck with. It's also probably in no small part because so many of us are now game art professionals instead of eager kids making models to play with in our games.
well back in older polycount days no one was contributing to SDKs to get a job. It was for the fun and the weird 'art' of it. Nothing prevents that to come back, and the artistry involved in crafting beautiful diffuse texture would serve every aspiring modeler under the sun out there. I know character skintones because I painted them on diffuse textures and on digital paintings before, not because I downloaded some cool SSS shader.
Speaking of increased production time too. It boogles my mind how wasteful some modelers are these days. There are soooo many ways to build highpoly models fast, yet everyone seems to believe wrong facts like "everything should be quads", or even , "everything should be turbosmoothed", and cage wireframe look cool when they are so dense it looks shaded. It's just not true, and if one place can educate on such things, that's PC!
And yeah it's funny too because I feel very different from Mezz, maybe because of being somewhat of an oldtimer. For me PC is about seing something developed from start to finish, in a thread to go back to. Only a painting to post? Well, start a thread with it, and keep it alive by posting more paintings!! It's as simple as that.
I guess I am not much of the kind to just want to get tons of cool pictures in my face as fast as possible. I'd rather enjoy the feeling of knowing that someone is currently crafting out a kickass texture, then coming back to the thread the next day to see progress and/or sharp constructive criticism.
The other reason why I feel attached to that individual thread structure, is that I know that the best feedback I got in the past leading to personal growth and progress, came from just that - posting progress threads, feeding them regularly, and collecting feedback from there to then improve the current or next piece. It doesnt need threads bumps and updates every day ; it doesnt even need to be finished in the end. But later on it's progress you remember making, and growth to build upon.
I agree, I also prefer it to be that way. But it's not like that doesn't exist now. There are still a lot of WIP threads. It's just with WAYWO people have the choice whether they want to conform to that style of posting. While I think it would be nice if that's all there was, should it really be forced (not that you are necessarily suggesting this)? Like Adam mentioned earlier, WAYWO was created and made popular by the users. Who's to say it wouldn't spring up again?
Maybe just unstickying it would be an option for now, see if it stays as popular.
flysoup & pior, some great insight. Thanks fellas, I enjoyed reading your replies.
Tulkamir it really is infuriating that you're painting this picture of the team throwing up white flags all over the place when a.) That's not the case at all and B.) you've completely ignored rogue13's point: *EVERYTHING* we do is for what we think is the best for this community. And so far that strategy has worked beautifully for the past 12 years.
We asked that thread's be kept on topic or of interest to an art community as best they can. Boohoo?
I would apologize to you that Polycount doesn't feel the same for you, but I am not sorry for wanting this place to be the video game art resource and not a place for random Pyscho Babble posts and heated political topics. If you can't handle that, thats not our problem. And you know what? I personally don't mind the odd political thread, morality post, or general 'blog' post. Hell, the most popular thread in GD is off-topic and as of writing this has 3,735 replies. But when that off-topic trains gets rolling half of GD becomes off-topic and we have to make a post reminding people what we are here.
That's it for me on this specifically, its time to get back on topic:
WAYWO isn't going anywhere nor will its function change, for now. I'm really just interested in making P&P a more streamlined experience for finding posts that our members want to view and hopefully comment on.
What is everyone's thoughts on Technical Talk getting sub-forums for all major 3D engines/packages? It's a little difficult / bit of a pain in the ass sifting through our MEGA THREADS looking for specific information. If we had a sub-forum then posts with topics could be made, and the experience of finding information that you're after would be made easier.
Sub-forums don't clutter the main forum listing - they don't even show up. You'd have to click in to Technical Talk, then click on the 'Unreal Development Kit' forum link. Which, really, is less work than clicking through the MT's just to find what you're after Thoughts?
I can see where both sides are coming from. On one hand there are far more casual posters who could derail polycount if they just post anything and everything. On the other hand I miss the days when you would come here and just see people posting anything and everything, but there wasn't any censorship necessary because everyone was so about game art you didn't need to tell people that was the focus. The community kinda censored itself because the regulars posted so often.
Things really have changed a lot. Too many fairweather posters, poppin' in to make the same crate or pistol and never posting again. Seems like comments and critiques aren't making anyone any better these days, makes posting in P&P a waste of time. Sure every now and then there's the kick ass post from someone who knows what they're doing, but half the time it's because they've been laid off since they lost a job. Everyone's just too burned out to contribute, be it with school or work.
Who knows what the future holds, sure has been a long time since the last kick ass thing to learn or help each other with. Zbrush, normal maps, UDK are all distant memories, same with the unearthly and comic con challenge. The new polycount launch should be fun, maybe that'll get us off our lazy asses.
On a personal note, I'm gearing up to do my first stylized hand painted environment scene. Have high hopes for it and want at least a bit done and in the portfolio by GDC, so there should be rapid progress. Might make for a fun pimping and preview post, starting on the concepts tommorow, should have a new thread by the end of the day.
If P&P's going to be getting the image-on-hover feature (which sounds great), it would be cool to have an option to view the topic list as nothing but those images as well. Like scaled down but not too small to see, maybe with a little number showing how many more images there are in the thread. Threads with hot art but dull titles would be easier to spot that way and more topics might fit on the page. Plus it'd be fun to look at.
Crazy - you should post a thread like mine, for your environment. Document every process and write about it. I haven't built more than a couple of cliff faces and some bushes and already I've learned a TON. And apparently a few others have as well. Not too mention.. its fun to just up and write about what you're doing. It's motivating and once posted, invigorating.
Loud and clear Adam, been following your thread! I've got some pretty cool ideas baking in my head involving decals and envitonmental props and I've got plenty of cool UDK tricks i learned on the last Unearthly Challenge that i was too rushed to post about. Just thinking about it really does add to the motivation. It's been too long since i had a thread that I was actively working on, can't wait .
TT subforums is a great idea, those megathreads are a bit daunting.
Another solution could be when a question is answered, the polycount wiki could be updated under the page of that program's Q&A's. Probably takes too much work, but it would be nicely organized, and would eliminate a lot of those same questions that are formulated differently each time.
We asked that thread's be kept on topic or of interest to an art community as best they can. Boohoo?
Then start closing all these useless blog posts about people saying "yay I got a new job." Wtf do I care about their personal lives. Nothing to discuss there.
I think splitting things up by package (assuming you mean programs ie max maya etc) is bad juju. Engines, sure. They all work differently and have very specific ways of doing things. Programs on the other hand can be easily abstracted between each other. Dividing into package sub boards means less people will put eyes on the question, thus less answers. As Vig brought up earlier, part of the magic here is that people with different experiences and backgrounds post on the same threads with different ideas. Splitting it up means that the people with the answers have to click more to check all the new threads, which will inevitably lead to less posts.
Then start closing all these useless blog posts about people saying "yay I got a new job." Wtf do I care about their personal lives. Nothing to discuss there.
Yeah, because actually doing art for a living is not a great milestone in anyones artistic development.
"Yay I got a new job!"-threads are something completely different than a the ton of threads like "Omg, look at this dog on jet-skis!!11!" or the "Should I clip my toenails?"-threads we would have without the polycount is not your blog rule.
The it's not your blog rule came from threads that were like "I've been feeling shitty lately and can't seem to make any decent art" not the random threads.
And while getting a job is a great milestone for any artist, it leaves nothing to discuss. Just a series of congrats. Useless.
However, for a community, it's nice. I think we need to decide whether we're an art discussion board, or a community of artists.
Polycount is NOT your blog. If you have a topic of reasonable discussion to post, then by all means, please post away and let the intelligent discussion begin. However, these random posts of "I ate cookies today" or "My car is blue" or whatever really need to come to an end. They provide no topic for discussion and are generally useless and become filled with lolcats and such anyway..
I personally think that art-block and general procrastination is a very relevant topic. Just recently, I replaced my entire playlist with a sample of brown noise, and some audio-books for unwrapping. I personally find it a bit hard to both be creative, and tenacious enough just to get the stuff done a very hard balance to maintain.
Polycount even before it was polycount has always been and will always be what is best for the community.
When shit was new, q2pmp was the place to go and see what the next hot thing was for a player model pack. People would post their SDKs and before the week was done three people had already made either a new skin for it or a new skin pack.
It was amazing. You didn't have people posting (the same shit I post now btw) a bunch of unfinished work.
I mention my own failure to finish anthing I post because I feel that with the way the industry has evolved and shaped the communities, we've lost a lot of what made doing this fun to begin with.
I hate to say it, but now days when i look at P&P, I look at the art and think, "would I pay for that to be put in a game?"
This is my bad, and after reading the feedback from the question and the comments and questons posted by moderators and people in the WAYWO thread, I am really able to see how I feel about the way the forum has progressed... and evolved.
I truly believe the current setup has bread this culture in the polycount forum that rewards equaly unfinished work and finished work. And people have started viewing the foums to see what their competition is doing, to make their buddy feel good about their half finished head sculpt (i'm even guilty of this shit)... when it should be about fostering collaboration, learning and fun.
I particularly enjoy the mini comps.
I've been reading this forum since (hiperbaly alarm) FOREVER and EVAR!
and recently have felt very detached from the art and the people on the forum... like a wall flower.
Most of that is from the lack of interesting posts I see...
I feel the WAYWO thread is providing a service o the community... but it's also taking away the thing that made the forum/community great.
There's no consequence to posting in the WAYWO thread, but there's also no real value in it either.
The WAYWO thread allows people to randomly post stuff that people can comment on or not... if you make a bad model and it's in the WAYWO thread just above something else that bobo or b1ll isn't going to finish, then it's likely there won't be any feedback given on it. because the thread will be very quickly filled with "NIce dude!" and "eye-Sex!!!"
(I also do this)
So the thing that made Polycount great, is the thing that the people who love the WAYWO thread are trying to avoid... Very Interesting.
The WAYWO thread is a way to get your PC rocks off while you got some downtime at home/work... but because so much cool shit is being posted there, a lot of people aren't looking at the other threads or posting in them/contributing to the community...
What I really liked about it (old days) was that the not interesting or generally rediculous posts often times fell off the list... so only the really intersting shit got bumped... we were disceplined in that way.
NOW, we are lazy and self serving, it would seem... "I feel good when I fire and forget my renders at the internet"...
But what does that really contribute to the community?
What does a new finished work forum contribute to the community? -- Now, I can truly see... it also would contribute nothing to the polycount community.
The tagging methods talked about and the previews are all sounding like things that could be tried? I don't think it would change much, and it wouldn't even have to be a [Potfolio] prefix... but just a tag applied that no one needs to read... then people could simply filter the things they wanted to see that day.
Personally, I do like to look at all the different types of posts... sketchbooks, portfolios, W.I.P, finished work... it's just some days, I know i only want to look at a group of portfolios for 5 or 10 minutes/hours
or, finished work...
I now see that my original question should have been, "how do you guys feel about the level of control you have over the type of content you see?"
This could potentially do away entirely with the individual forums? Thoughts on this?
Instead of "General Discussion thread" or "Pimping and previews..." it works more like the generic browser in Unreal Ed? Thoughts on that?
But I also agree with JWarner's message (however some may or may not feel about his delivery.)
And agree (as it seems adam does as well) that enforcing rigid structure to the posting could be harmful to the community. And, I don't believe polycount admins would ever go down that path.
Polycount has been such a great resource for so many artists (this is forum is the reason a lot of us have a job in the industry now... or in the past) and I'd like to keep it a valuable tool for artists who are professionals, students, or hobbiests.
One way we do that is by not hiding behind the floods of posts in a single location, but ask ourselves. What value does this post make to the community, and flagging it appropriately for the people who want to come here to do a specific thing... be it waste time, learn something, or get they jaw dropped.
I'm all for splitting off the engine specific megathreads into their own sub forums. Maybe less people will ask the same old questions in the Marmoset and Unreal threads because it'll be easier to find info that way.
Please no rating systems for threads, let the contents be it art or text speak for themselves. I hate that aspect about other forums...
I personally visit the WAYWO thread maybe 1 out of 4 times I load up Polycount. Sometimes you just want to see some cool stuff and it almost always delivers, but like others have said there are rarely any critiques or learning going on there so it's of less interest to me. I have no problems with it staying up stickied as it is now.
A thumbnail view of Pimping and Previews might be nice, don't know how that would work for portfolio threads though.
I hope Polycount can remain the very human experience that it has been for so long and not become another sterile corner of the internet. Someone once described Polycount as a dive bar, I believe that description fits very well and is what I love about it. Just like a dive bar you go there to socialize, all the "this is not your blog" stuff comes off as very anti social to me. Maybe we could split General Discussion into "on topic" and "off topic" sub forums so there's a place where people who just want to be emo or rant about politics can do so. I know we don't want to split the forums so much we become a gameartisans or cgsociety (shudder...) but it seems there is a community split here between those that like the purely on topic posts and those that like both.
We asked that thread's be kept on topic or of interest to an art community as best they can. Boohoo?
I agree with the spirit of Kubs post "this isn't your blog" as it aims to curb the useless spam that pops up and keep things relevant. But I think it gets misinterpreted, not necessarily by the mods and admins but by average joe users which probably does more to keep lurkers lurking...
So just to clarify:
Inane BS that flops out of a 6th graders keyboard, totally unnecessary?
Things that might not directly relate to the industry but artists might find interesting, ok?
Personally I would hate to have to draw a big thick black line connecting the dots from whatever is interesting, back to the industry in some way like I did with the recent post about NASA. I felt I had to tack on the "and this might effect future developers in some way" just to dodge the "this isn't your blog" post that was sure to follow.
It seem like "this isn't your twitter account" might fit better than blog. There are some super relevant blogs out there (like Ricks) that I would gladly see posted in GD, super relevant and informative and right on target. I get what Kub was saying but I think people take it to mean anything you post on a blog even interesting relevant stuff is bad.
I think it was Gauss that had a "think before you post" article, it would probably be good to update it and include it in the FAQ of the site or sticky it in GD or something.
Quick recap:
- Thumbnails in P&P, cool idea, if it can be updated by the OP even better.
- WAYWO kept around with a focus more like the "post one nice photo" thread, great.
What is everyone's thoughts on Technical Talk getting sub-forums for all major 3D engines/packages? It's a little difficult / bit of a pain in the ass sifting through our MEGA THREADS looking for specific information. If we had a sub-forum then posts with topics could be made, and the experience of finding information that you're after would be made easier.
In general, i really do not like the idea of split forums up into app specific. I think i have a very good reason for this as well. Me personally i know a little bit about a lot of apps, and can give help/insight on a lot of topics, even if i'm not an expert in something like max. Also, many issues that people have on an artistic basis in a certain program may have universal solutions, ei: most stuff in the "how you model dem shapes" and most every sub-d related thread every created in tech talk, most of these end with solutions that are more or less universal to every app that supports sub-d. Many issues people have with normal maps are transferable, etc etc etc.
Now contrary to that, i do think there are a few exceptions; Marmoset, UE3, any other game engine, Xnormal... These are great examples because issues with these applications are virtually 100% purely technical and almost always completely exclusive to the given app. Xnormal you could also make an argument that many general normal map questions have universal solutions, but it has such a large userbase here, and often entirely technical solutions that merit its own sub-forum.
So, Max/Maya/Modo subforms = BIG NO
Game engines/Xnormal = BIG YES
all the "this is not your blog" stuff comes off as very anti social to me. Maybe we could split General Discussion into "on topic" and "off topic" sub forums so there's a place where people who just want to be emo or rant about politics can do so. I know we don't want to split the forums so much we become a gameartisans or cgsociety (shudder...) but it seems there is a community split here between those that like the purely on topic posts and those that like both.
I do sort of agree with your point, but it's kind of the final step forums take before they are riddled with people who are there just for a forum to discuss just that. "Off-topic stuff" and have a mild interest in game art, if that. And speaking from experience. I used to be an avid member on Facepunch(The forum related with the development of Garry's Mod). For the most part, people would post there model ports, or model and rig there own characters into the mod and share uploads and whathaveyou. But my point is the forum started out and drove a large community of the users to create their own content, and generally be a nice addition to the user-base. But over a few years, the forums got very generalized and the more popular threads were no longer what the content devs were up to, it was what was happening in the "Fast threads" or "General Discussion". And this is a watered down version of 4chan most of the time. As I do love the forum still, it just kind of fell apart, with a lot of the senior members still posting some nice stuff, but it's not the same feeling of a mod forum. It's just a separate thing entirely.
Now I'm not saying there is no room for discussion outside of more serious things, or games related topics. But that's kind of what separates Polycount away from a million other forums. The work alone is enough to keep many lurkers at bay, with one check over the P&P section, the quality of work shown can really be intimidating. And can motivate you to work on your skills before you post, or post seeking true advice. Not just "I make cylinder. Discuss." And the people here actually do their homework. If it's something I've been helped out with in the IRC channel or on the forums themselves, it's a helpful community that is actually driven in a pretty similar direction. But I could be wrong.
As for the Technical Talk, I think an organized area would be pretty nice, and probably get some of the less programming oriented individuals a little more interested in the technical aspects of it all. Maybe a large resource of helpful texts and desk references. Or the pros and cons of different level engines. Okay, I'll stop babbling now.
The question here is what does it add to polycount? Are you making the user experience better by posting a thread on how your waffle didn't taste as good with light syrup as apposed to regular syrup this morning?
There are plenty of outlets if you want to blog, plenty of places like 4chan etc if you want to post random pictures on the internet, plenty of sites like somethingawful if you want a hilarious internet forum to post on.
Just having a "anything goes" policy only serves to make polycount less unique, and less appealing to the core members of the community, people who have that sole desire to discuss games, tech, movies, and other relevant-nerdy shit that goes along with being involved in the games community in some form. This is the user base that polycount will ALWAYS cater to. Because these are the people who make polycount what it is.
If this pisses off people who only want to come here to post cat pictures, or rant about they're day... So be it, i really dont see how that is a negative side effect at all. Because it adds nothing of substance to the community. On top of that, there are many, BETTER outlets for this sort of thing.
Homer: All work and no play make Homer something something
Marge: Go crazy?
Homer: Don't mind if I do....
I get the hardcore "stay on topic, its all game art all the time 365" attitude, I've made great use of it at different times in my life. But really I like a well balanced polycount too. I think a little off topic is good since staying on target that often can wear you down and make you less creative.
Some of our members have been marinating in game art longer than some of the newer posters have been alive... Sometimes a switching flavors is great.
I personally think that being crazy focused teetering on obsession for long periods of time (weeks or months) can rob you of what makes an artist great and put you in a rut. It's good for learning new things and practicing. But after that you need to spice it up and do other things and think about other stuff so your brain doesn't have a chance to get dusty.
What I'm getting at is some people need to focus and not be pulled off subject, some people need some distraction to stay fresh and since we're all different people at different stages I think we should keep things loose and leave it up to the members as to which sub forums they think are appropriate for them instead of "lock it down and button it up" so someone somewhere doesn't get pulled off subject.
I think one of the reasons why facepunch fell apart was the caliber of users it attracted after the HL1 mod scene fell apart. Also factor in the raise of other sites that catered more to the higher caliber users needs, wooing them away.
Replies
My understanding of tech talk was a place "to ask technical questions about 2D/3D software, exporting, level editors etc. Post shaders and scripts."
Why is photoshop CS4 slower than CS2?
I get this error when I export to ASE, what gives?
Anyone know of a good "find n-gon" script?
Max turns my spheres blue when I don't use it for a long time?
Technique questions sometimes pop up. lets discuss the best joint topology. But normally that stuff comes to light when someone points it out in a P&P thread.
Things like critiques on topology, painting technique, even unwrapping all end up in the critique forum P&P.
Tech talk: Problems to solve.
P&P: Bow before the amazing art or give them a nudge in the right direction.
I'm not trying to pigeon hole your posting style just explain how I've seen it working.
These days we have pros, and people who want to learn how to "tighten up the graphics on level 3". Hardly any 2D at all even.
I understand what you are trying to explain Vig.
A week ago there was a person who wanted to discuss the head topology and posted his thread in 2d/3d pimp n previews. 2 hours later I found that thread was moved to technical talk, so I figured the technical talk is the place to discuss both. issues regarding your topology strategy, and the technical technical talk the one you just explained.
I guess I was wrong.
i'm glad you didn't pm. i'll reply once for the sake of discussion, but lets do a lil' pm thing if you want to keep going.
fair point. yes, I do get pissy sometimes. this topic in particular has me upset fbecause i feel as if i've seen a few people be stomped in a few ways and my justice button is going off.
truth be told, i guess i just don't care. I dont hate anyone, i'm not trying to be dominant, there are just so many reasons why being soft is pointless. I spent a lot of time saying "hey, i dig what you're doing.. but I kinda think that maybe this other thing is cool. but hey, maybe it's just me" -- and really, it's just a waste of goddamn time, because it's ambiguous, and if there's a value conflict, it's next to impossible that speaking that way is going to make it clear.. either way, perhaps I am going to war in one-too-many-contexts. I'll think about it.
What I want out of the revamped PC is informational organization...an easier way to find answers to my problems, to find the latest innovation from the people who are doing it, the fresh perspective on cg art. The last thing I want to do is stifle someones creativity or willingness to post, but if PC is going to be a place to exchange ideas and information, that exchange has to have some sort of structure to it. I think things like thread tags and mouseover images goes a long way towards being unobtrusively helpful. A big part of my learning process has been seeing how other people make their art, and a lot of that has come through seeing wires and UVs in the P&P threads. Whether it's the OP posting updates or crits from other members, there's more sexy info lurking in P&P than anywhere else on the internet, especially for people like me that are just learning the ropes.
The waywo thread has a ton of cool stuff in it, but it's a fucking braindrain to look through. It's all over the place and hard to sort through the non sequitur crits and backpatting around the art. It's also fucking massive...god forbid you didn't save that image you wanted, it'd take you half the day to find it again. It seems like a good idea on paper, but in practice it's messy. There ought to be a better way to implement it.
Again, this is just my two cents from a newbie who really likes the place. You're the people who are making and posting the art that inspires and educates me, so in the end I guess whatever makes you all more productive/happy works for me.
The problem with "I'm not there yet I'm just figuring it out" is that other people are having the same problems and can learn for your posts also. Plus when someone asks, people normally chime in with all different suggestions. Google might give you an answer but people here might come up with 2-3 ways that are better or they might help you or other people in other ways on other projects.
Sometimes I know my answer isn't "quite what they're looking for" but because I post the ball gets rolling. The question might go unanswered if no one starts things off. I think people are paranoid about ruining their rep or saying something stupid and they just need to get over it. No one ever learns to run without learning to walk, no one learns to walk without first falling down. The faster you face plant the faster you get learn to run.
It's a fair point. In my defense, I'm usually googling stuff like references or mental ray settings...stuff that isn't really game art related and I don't want to clutter Tech Talk with. The questions I have that are already answered on here are things like 'why does my normal map have wavy lines where the cylinder is'...do we really need another one of those posts?
I really like the idea of eliminating WAYWO, but I also fear it. All of that traffic channeled into a handful of other threads which continue to get bumped and push smaller threads off of the front page. And what can you do short of shamelessly bumping your own thread to get it back up there? Actual progress updates aren't that frequent and in the meantime your thread just sits there lifeless.
I guess the Dominance Wars are a great example of WIP forums without WAYWO. There is still a large amount of politics involved. You have to keep posting in other people's threads to get yourself noticed so those people post in your thread and it can be a lot of work just to get your thread viewed.
For me, I feel like there's pressure to post in WAYWO just to get your work seen. Every WIP thread I have created has gotten posts, but never gone past two pages. Maybe it's just a fear that I still have lingering from other forums, where you will only get posts if you're good or have made friends, but I always feel like if I create a thread it's not going to get looked at. I have no way of knowing if people are viewing it and just not commenting or if it's being overlooked. On other places, beside the tread title and latest post there's a number of thread views. I like being able to see how much I am being viewed. However, that is like stars in its own way. Maybe make it so that only the thread starter can see how much interest their thread is getting?
Well, however I feel about not getting my threads seen. Polycount is still the best community around for equal opportunity thread viewing and commenting, so eliminating WAYWO could work.
I almost never post on GA because their site design feels like an explosion of contests, ads, and subforums, and there's pictures everywhere. I don't even know where to begin. But the only subforum I check regularly there is the Finished Work forum because it usually has a good combination of good new work that's inspiring and kind of shoddy work that's educational in the way that I can see what's wrong with it and try to avoid making the same mistakes. The same thing is true of finished and in-progress work on P&P here, but that page of nothing but pictures and star-ratings they have over there is pretty slick and faster than reading over thread titles.
When I post in WAYWO, it's because it's the closest I can get to posting anonymously or temporarily. I might be alone on this one, but I don't want a reputation or any kind of perceived Internet persona when it comes to my work. Perhaps I'm paranoid, but I'm troubled by the notion that if I keep posting stuff I don't finish or that's of low quality or I need a lot of help with things here, or I just post things people don't like, that when I start applying for industry jobs, someone might recognize me and be like, "Oh, no. Don't hire that guy. He's a douche. Just look what he posts on Polycount". I know that's probably not likely to happen unless I make an enormous ass of myself, but it keeps me from starting new threads in P&P anyway. In WAYWO, it's almost like posting something on an imageboard. Maybe I'll get some crits or even some encouragement, maybe not, but either way it'll be lost in the din of a thousand other posts and largely forgotten, so I can get some feedback and there's a lot less pressure to be awesome.
To put that in terms I think more people can relate to: Posting in something like the WAYWO thread is more like just showing something your working on to a friend or coworker and getting a few words of feedback, where starting a new thread in P&P is more like pinning your stuff up on the wall and asking for a group critique.
Personally, the people I know offline who I might otherwise casually show my work to in such a manner know nothing about 3d, games, or art in general; so when it's time for a little "hey cool, man" or "the wrists are too thin and the eyes are a little big" to keep me going, I look for somewhere to post online to get the same effect. Recently, the closest thing has been WAYWO, or to a lesser extent, the sketchbook threads. What would be ideal, I think, is a completely temporary board (more like a chat room with pictures almost, I guess) where things get purged after so long so we can stop in and see what people are working on currently or post up some stuff to get a few words about it, but then it's gone after xx posts or x days instead of lingering there as a record of what you were working on 6 months ago.
Just my thoughts on it, of course. I'm not suggesting any of that would necessarily be best for everyone.
well that's kindof putting the cart before the wheels honestly. But maybe that's a side effect of gameart getting too technical, and aspiring 3D artists who just want to be 'good at threedee', leaving many aspects uncovered. I dunno.
But anyways. I think the shift in quality is something that inevitably happens when forums grow bigger. I doesnt mean that stuff get better or worse, its more about the cosy home feeling fading aways because of so many things being posted.
I am actually wondering if the thread/linear nature of a ubb forum fits anymore. We know that adding subforums is not a solution. In that regard I admire CGhub. I don't think it's the best system yet, but at least they tried some sort of a paradigm shift with the collage approach.
I would say the worse way to go would be Zbrushcentral. "WOOOOOOOOOO you're a master you should be toprowwww!" - to me it's obvious that its not the solution so we can eliminate that already.
I think a step in the right direction would be thread thumbnails.
Then maybe, a more efficient thread filtering system. And making the filter box as a big part of the forum layout. Something suggesting 'what would you like to browse today', in a way :
One could be interested in seing the most recent posts, somebody else would maybe want to see only threads with 3+ pages, maybe someone in a helping mood would like to see the posts made by the most recently registered users, and so on.
This would also let the viewer filter post by thread starters without having to use the broken search feature. (type Belias in there, instant acid trip!)
Scriptspot did something similar recently, a big search box becoming the core of their search engine. To me it made it one of the best script website just because of that.
Hope this helps!!
Sorry, I didn't explain myself very well there. I actually have a fairly strong grasp of composition and things like color theory, light sourcing, etc from a graphic design background. I could do block outs and color palettes all day long, but don't really have the skills to replace the placeholders with anything decent. Completing the puzzle for me is learning how to actually do the technical end of modeling and texturing, then start putting things out there for people to crit.
I actually had this discussion with my wife a few days ago, about the move to integrate various forms of online interaction and how the 'standard' of things like forums will work in the long run. Stuff like Google Wave and some other tech being thrown around in the university system shows promise to integrate things like forums, image hosting, video and blogs into a multithreaded environment that offer more flexibility for people to choose how they get their information. I think what we're talking about here is a basic idea of that...giving people more options in a transparent and unobtrusive way. In the end, I think things like forums are just going to be a piece of an extended system.
I think the one thing to avoid tho, is to go the 'social networking' way. I know it's tempting and I think some forums are actually trying that already, but it could become quite a crybaby corner hehe. Again, I could see it happen on ZBC and become a fanboy wetdream/mess.
It would be nice to gather example links showing nice filtering systems in action. Anyone?
(I see what you mean now about the technical sides of things now. I think that now its really about observing how others do it and slowly learn from there - gameart takes time! But youll get there, especially with that visual background that you have. good luck!)
Live forum you mean? I remember RIOT games have used it on their league of legends forums.
The updated thread takes the first place in the slot and if you hover the mouse cursor over it it'll show you a message box showing the brief of the OP.
What would really be cool is to have everything tagged and threaded together, sort of like a wiki. All images are databased and indexed by tags, so you could view all the images on the site. Or you could view all the images by member x, or all the images in a thread, etc. Then you could click through one image to the post it came from, or to images with the similar tags or whatever. One user could choose to set his polycount up to look just like it does now, another could choose to have it like cghub (something like 'main page: display most recent 30 images')
(this is all hypothetical...I'm not actually suggesting any of this for PC, at least in the foreseeable future)
What it really comes down to is three things: how you organize your data, how you display your data and how you link your data. The real freedom would come with a system that opened display and linking to the user as opposed to the author or admin. When you break the linear system of current forums, you end up with a lot of new and interesting options.
Just the msg box part? Yes it does.
Kinda makes me sad. I like a lot of things about this community, but shit like "This isn't your blog" turn me off hugely. It's pretty blatant censorship, which I can't stand. Like John said, it essentially amounts to certain community members projecting what their beliefs of useful discussion are to everyone, which is ridiculous. Especially because, personally, I've found a lot of the threads those very people say are useless are more useful than the threads posted by the censors.
Not only that, if we're attracting the kinds of "artists" that only want to talk about art, it's a community I'd say will inevitably go in a bad direction, as that is pretty unhealthy, and uncreative attitude.
I suppose for me it's a bit of a different perspective though, because as I move more towards the design and scripting side of game development the parts of polycount I can connect with becomes more limited to the creative side and the discussion side. With both those being increasingly limited... things just aren't looking that great.
Like Ninja's said, it feels like there used to somehow be a bit more variety.
And r13's reply to John definitely didn't inspire confidence in the leadership around here. (Calling someone and idiot or retard? Why don't you just pull out poopy head next eh?)
I like the WAYWO thread, a lot. If there's one thread I'll make 100% certain to check whenever I come on here, it's that one. I LIKE seeing all the latest stuff people have going on. I LIKE getting a whole bunch of it at once, giving me a lot of variety in one go. I LIKE the amount of criticism on there. No, it's usually not much, but I'm sure if people wanted more feedback, they could make their own thread. I LIKE seeing the huge variance is the skill level, be it seasoned pro, or newbie just starting out. And even more, I really like seeing people's gradual improvement through the things they post in WAYWO.
I LIKE having somewhere to throw some piece of art I've been working on in, be it traditional painting or 3D art. Why would I make my own thread to post one image of a painting I've done...? I like the feeling of getting something out there, having pride in working on my own art. But the pressure of starting my own thread for that... can feel daunting. Like others have said, in WAYWO, you know you'll get the largest amount of people possible taking a look.
Most of all, I can't help but think, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Why get rid of WAYWO? It's clear that it's a very popular thread, so why does it need to go? If you're not a fan, choose another thread, no one is making you click on it.
Okay, so keeping this short turned out to be a big LIE... but my point is really just this: I like the WAYWO thread, and would be very upset to see it go.
To go back to the subject. I think that the very simple core of the issue is that, the change we feel happening is simply because PC grew so big and yet the personal goals that posters try to achieve are much less defined than before.
It used to be members deciding to get their hands dirty and struggle with game engines and mod tools to get amateur yet vibrant products across. Mods, maps, ingame characters. (for either the art of it, the technical challenge itself, or even just for laughs). It's a very targeted aim, yet it spreads across many disciplines (2d, 3d, animation, even composition for map making).
This is what I like/liked about PC, and this is what drives me to browse the forums everyday - that one desire for completion that game artist have, and the variety and creativity that use to come from that (BrotherGrimms anyone?)
I also have no shame to admit that I would gladly filter threads like 'my game art teacher told me to post here, so here is that hand model I just made, how can I tighten the normalmaps please?', out of my daily browsing. I am all for knowledge sharing, but I am also a firm advocate of learning by facing challenges and trying to get better. But maybe it's just a matter of self taught VS game school education, I dunno. Plus there are great schools out there too so mybe it's all irrelevant, I dunno.
But yeah filter systems ftw.
I guess I am not much of the kind to just want to get tons of cool pictures in my face as fast as possible. I'd rather enjoy the feeling of knowing that someone is currently crafting out a kickass texture, then coming back to the thread the next day to see progress and/or sharp constructive criticism.
The other reason why I feel attached to that individual thread structure, is that I know that the best feedback I got in the past leading to personal growth and progress, came from just that - posting progress threads, feeding them regularly, and collecting feedback from there to then improve the current or next piece. It doesnt need threads bumps and updates every day ; it doesnt even need to be finished in the end. But later on it's progress you remember making, and growth to build upon.
As much as anything that seems to be just due to the increased complexity of game art now adays. You can't knock out a complete top notch model in a day or two now. It's all become incredibly complex so that communal spirit that came from the likes of everyone texturing up an SDK that someone has posted has diminished considerably. Given that we're not likely to return to the halcyon days of Quake 3 any time soon, the mood here is something that we're stuck with. It's also probably in no small part because so many of us are now game art professionals instead of eager kids making models to play with in our games.
Speaking of increased production time too. It boogles my mind how wasteful some modelers are these days. There are soooo many ways to build highpoly models fast, yet everyone seems to believe wrong facts like "everything should be quads", or even , "everything should be turbosmoothed", and cage wireframe look cool when they are so dense it looks shaded. It's just not true, and if one place can educate on such things, that's PC!
I agree, I also prefer it to be that way. But it's not like that doesn't exist now. There are still a lot of WIP threads. It's just with WAYWO people have the choice whether they want to conform to that style of posting. While I think it would be nice if that's all there was, should it really be forced (not that you are necessarily suggesting this)? Like Adam mentioned earlier, WAYWO was created and made popular by the users. Who's to say it wouldn't spring up again?
Maybe just unstickying it would be an option for now, see if it stays as popular.
Tulkamir it really is infuriating that you're painting this picture of the team throwing up white flags all over the place when a.) That's not the case at all and B.) you've completely ignored rogue13's point: *EVERYTHING* we do is for what we think is the best for this community. And so far that strategy has worked beautifully for the past 12 years.
We asked that thread's be kept on topic or of interest to an art community as best they can. Boohoo?
I would apologize to you that Polycount doesn't feel the same for you, but I am not sorry for wanting this place to be the video game art resource and not a place for random Pyscho Babble posts and heated political topics. If you can't handle that, thats not our problem. And you know what? I personally don't mind the odd political thread, morality post, or general 'blog' post. Hell, the most popular thread in GD is off-topic and as of writing this has 3,735 replies. But when that off-topic trains gets rolling half of GD becomes off-topic and we have to make a post reminding people what we are here.
That's it for me on this specifically, its time to get back on topic:
WAYWO isn't going anywhere nor will its function change, for now. I'm really just interested in making P&P a more streamlined experience for finding posts that our members want to view and hopefully comment on.
What is everyone's thoughts on Technical Talk getting sub-forums for all major 3D engines/packages? It's a little difficult / bit of a pain in the ass sifting through our MEGA THREADS looking for specific information. If we had a sub-forum then posts with topics could be made, and the experience of finding information that you're after would be made easier.
Sub-forums don't clutter the main forum listing - they don't even show up. You'd have to click in to Technical Talk, then click on the 'Unreal Development Kit' forum link. Which, really, is less work than clicking through the MT's just to find what you're after
Things really have changed a lot. Too many fairweather posters, poppin' in to make the same crate or pistol and never posting again. Seems like comments and critiques aren't making anyone any better these days, makes posting in P&P a waste of time. Sure every now and then there's the kick ass post from someone who knows what they're doing, but half the time it's because they've been laid off since they lost a job. Everyone's just too burned out to contribute, be it with school or work.
Who knows what the future holds, sure has been a long time since the last kick ass thing to learn or help each other with. Zbrush, normal maps, UDK are all distant memories, same with the unearthly and comic con challenge. The new polycount launch should be fun, maybe that'll get us off our lazy asses.
On a personal note, I'm gearing up to do my first stylized hand painted environment scene. Have high hopes for it and want at least a bit done and in the portfolio by GDC, so there should be rapid progress. Might make for a fun pimping and preview post, starting on the concepts tommorow, should have a new thread by the end of the day.
Also, +1 for TT subforums.
Another solution could be when a question is answered, the polycount wiki could be updated under the page of that program's Q&A's. Probably takes too much work, but it would be nicely organized, and would eliminate a lot of those same questions that are formulated differently each time.
Then start closing all these useless blog posts about people saying "yay I got a new job." Wtf do I care about their personal lives. Nothing to discuss there.
If you didn't mean programs, disregard all that.
Seriously and fo true, that thread is a goldmine. I'd love to see more like it.
Yeah, because actually doing art for a living is not a great milestone in anyones artistic development.
"Yay I got a new job!"-threads are something completely different than a the ton of threads like "Omg, look at this dog on jet-skis!!11!" or the "Should I clip my toenails?"-threads we would have without the polycount is not your blog rule.
And while getting a job is a great milestone for any artist, it leaves nothing to discuss. Just a series of congrats. Useless.
However, for a community, it's nice. I think we need to decide whether we're an art discussion board, or a community of artists.
I personally think that art-block and general procrastination is a very relevant topic. Just recently, I replaced my entire playlist with a sample of brown noise, and some audio-books for unwrapping. I personally find it a bit hard to both be creative, and tenacious enough just to get the stuff done a very hard balance to maintain.
Polycount even before it was polycount has always been and will always be what is best for the community.
When shit was new, q2pmp was the place to go and see what the next hot thing was for a player model pack. People would post their SDKs and before the week was done three people had already made either a new skin for it or a new skin pack.
It was amazing. You didn't have people posting (the same shit I post now btw) a bunch of unfinished work.
I mention my own failure to finish anthing I post because I feel that with the way the industry has evolved and shaped the communities, we've lost a lot of what made doing this fun to begin with.
I hate to say it, but now days when i look at P&P, I look at the art and think, "would I pay for that to be put in a game?"
This is my bad, and after reading the feedback from the question and the comments and questons posted by moderators and people in the WAYWO thread, I am really able to see how I feel about the way the forum has progressed... and evolved.
I truly believe the current setup has bread this culture in the polycount forum that rewards equaly unfinished work and finished work. And people have started viewing the foums to see what their competition is doing, to make their buddy feel good about their half finished head sculpt (i'm even guilty of this shit)... when it should be about fostering collaboration, learning and fun.
I particularly enjoy the mini comps.
I've been reading this forum since (hiperbaly alarm) FOREVER and EVAR!
and recently have felt very detached from the art and the people on the forum... like a wall flower.
Most of that is from the lack of interesting posts I see...
I feel the WAYWO thread is providing a service o the community... but it's also taking away the thing that made the forum/community great.
There's no consequence to posting in the WAYWO thread, but there's also no real value in it either.
The WAYWO thread allows people to randomly post stuff that people can comment on or not... if you make a bad model and it's in the WAYWO thread just above something else that bobo or b1ll isn't going to finish, then it's likely there won't be any feedback given on it. because the thread will be very quickly filled with "NIce dude!" and "eye-Sex!!!"
(I also do this)
So the thing that made Polycount great, is the thing that the people who love the WAYWO thread are trying to avoid... Very Interesting.
The WAYWO thread is a way to get your PC rocks off while you got some downtime at home/work... but because so much cool shit is being posted there, a lot of people aren't looking at the other threads or posting in them/contributing to the community...
What I really liked about it (old days) was that the not interesting or generally rediculous posts often times fell off the list... so only the really intersting shit got bumped... we were disceplined in that way.
NOW, we are lazy and self serving, it would seem... "I feel good when I fire and forget my renders at the internet"...
But what does that really contribute to the community?
What does a new finished work forum contribute to the community? -- Now, I can truly see... it also would contribute nothing to the polycount community.
The tagging methods talked about and the previews are all sounding like things that could be tried? I don't think it would change much, and it wouldn't even have to be a [Potfolio] prefix... but just a tag applied that no one needs to read... then people could simply filter the things they wanted to see that day.
Personally, I do like to look at all the different types of posts... sketchbooks, portfolios, W.I.P, finished work... it's just some days, I know i only want to look at a group of portfolios for 5 or 10 minutes/hours
or, finished work...
I now see that my original question should have been, "how do you guys feel about the level of control you have over the type of content you see?"
This could potentially do away entirely with the individual forums? Thoughts on this?
Instead of "General Discussion thread" or "Pimping and previews..." it works more like the generic browser in Unreal Ed? Thoughts on that?
But I also agree with JWarner's message (however some may or may not feel about his delivery.)
And agree (as it seems adam does as well) that enforcing rigid structure to the posting could be harmful to the community. And, I don't believe polycount admins would ever go down that path.
Polycount has been such a great resource for so many artists (this is forum is the reason a lot of us have a job in the industry now... or in the past) and I'd like to keep it a valuable tool for artists who are professionals, students, or hobbiests.
One way we do that is by not hiding behind the floods of posts in a single location, but ask ourselves. What value does this post make to the community, and flagging it appropriately for the people who want to come here to do a specific thing... be it waste time, learn something, or get they jaw dropped.
Lots of great stuff here...
Please no rating systems for threads, let the contents be it art or text speak for themselves. I hate that aspect about other forums...
I personally visit the WAYWO thread maybe 1 out of 4 times I load up Polycount. Sometimes you just want to see some cool stuff and it almost always delivers, but like others have said there are rarely any critiques or learning going on there so it's of less interest to me. I have no problems with it staying up stickied as it is now.
A thumbnail view of Pimping and Previews might be nice, don't know how that would work for portfolio threads though.
I hope Polycount can remain the very human experience that it has been for so long and not become another sterile corner of the internet. Someone once described Polycount as a dive bar, I believe that description fits very well and is what I love about it. Just like a dive bar you go there to socialize, all the "this is not your blog" stuff comes off as very anti social to me. Maybe we could split General Discussion into "on topic" and "off topic" sub forums so there's a place where people who just want to be emo or rant about politics can do so. I know we don't want to split the forums so much we become a gameartisans or cgsociety (shudder...) but it seems there is a community split here between those that like the purely on topic posts and those that like both.
So just to clarify:
Inane BS that flops out of a 6th graders keyboard, totally unnecessary?
Things that might not directly relate to the industry but artists might find interesting, ok?
Personally I would hate to have to draw a big thick black line connecting the dots from whatever is interesting, back to the industry in some way like I did with the recent post about NASA. I felt I had to tack on the "and this might effect future developers in some way" just to dodge the "this isn't your blog" post that was sure to follow.
It seem like "this isn't your twitter account" might fit better than blog. There are some super relevant blogs out there (like Ricks) that I would gladly see posted in GD, super relevant and informative and right on target. I get what Kub was saying but I think people take it to mean anything you post on a blog even interesting relevant stuff is bad.
I think it was Gauss that had a "think before you post" article, it would probably be good to update it and include it in the FAQ of the site or sticky it in GD or something.
Quick recap:
- Thumbnails in P&P, cool idea, if it can be updated by the OP even better.
- WAYWO kept around with a focus more like the "post one nice photo" thread, great.
In general, i really do not like the idea of split forums up into app specific. I think i have a very good reason for this as well. Me personally i know a little bit about a lot of apps, and can give help/insight on a lot of topics, even if i'm not an expert in something like max. Also, many issues that people have on an artistic basis in a certain program may have universal solutions, ei: most stuff in the "how you model dem shapes" and most every sub-d related thread every created in tech talk, most of these end with solutions that are more or less universal to every app that supports sub-d. Many issues people have with normal maps are transferable, etc etc etc.
Now contrary to that, i do think there are a few exceptions; Marmoset, UE3, any other game engine, Xnormal... These are great examples because issues with these applications are virtually 100% purely technical and almost always completely exclusive to the given app. Xnormal you could also make an argument that many general normal map questions have universal solutions, but it has such a large userbase here, and often entirely technical solutions that merit its own sub-forum.
So, Max/Maya/Modo subforms = BIG NO
Game engines/Xnormal = BIG YES
I do sort of agree with your point, but it's kind of the final step forums take before they are riddled with people who are there just for a forum to discuss just that. "Off-topic stuff" and have a mild interest in game art, if that. And speaking from experience. I used to be an avid member on Facepunch(The forum related with the development of Garry's Mod). For the most part, people would post there model ports, or model and rig there own characters into the mod and share uploads and whathaveyou. But my point is the forum started out and drove a large community of the users to create their own content, and generally be a nice addition to the user-base. But over a few years, the forums got very generalized and the more popular threads were no longer what the content devs were up to, it was what was happening in the "Fast threads" or "General Discussion". And this is a watered down version of 4chan most of the time. As I do love the forum still, it just kind of fell apart, with a lot of the senior members still posting some nice stuff, but it's not the same feeling of a mod forum. It's just a separate thing entirely.
Now I'm not saying there is no room for discussion outside of more serious things, or games related topics. But that's kind of what separates Polycount away from a million other forums. The work alone is enough to keep many lurkers at bay, with one check over the P&P section, the quality of work shown can really be intimidating. And can motivate you to work on your skills before you post, or post seeking true advice. Not just "I make cylinder. Discuss." And the people here actually do their homework. If it's something I've been helped out with in the IRC channel or on the forums themselves, it's a helpful community that is actually driven in a pretty similar direction. But I could be wrong.
As for the Technical Talk, I think an organized area would be pretty nice, and probably get some of the less programming oriented individuals a little more interested in the technical aspects of it all. Maybe a large resource of helpful texts and desk references. Or the pros and cons of different level engines. Okay, I'll stop babbling now.
There are plenty of outlets if you want to blog, plenty of places like 4chan etc if you want to post random pictures on the internet, plenty of sites like somethingawful if you want a hilarious internet forum to post on.
Just having a "anything goes" policy only serves to make polycount less unique, and less appealing to the core members of the community, people who have that sole desire to discuss games, tech, movies, and other relevant-nerdy shit that goes along with being involved in the games community in some form. This is the user base that polycount will ALWAYS cater to. Because these are the people who make polycount what it is.
If this pisses off people who only want to come here to post cat pictures, or rant about they're day... So be it, i really dont see how that is a negative side effect at all. Because it adds nothing of substance to the community. On top of that, there are many, BETTER outlets for this sort of thing.
And to be clear - the sub-forums would be ENGINE specific, not 3D tool specific. (No 3DSMax/Maya sub forums, but Unreal/Crytek/etc. yes).
Homer: All work and no play make Homer something something
Marge: Go crazy?
Homer: Don't mind if I do....
I get the hardcore "stay on topic, its all game art all the time 365" attitude, I've made great use of it at different times in my life. But really I like a well balanced polycount too. I think a little off topic is good since staying on target that often can wear you down and make you less creative.
Some of our members have been marinating in game art longer than some of the newer posters have been alive... Sometimes a switching flavors is great.
I personally think that being crazy focused teetering on obsession for long periods of time (weeks or months) can rob you of what makes an artist great and put you in a rut. It's good for learning new things and practicing. But after that you need to spice it up and do other things and think about other stuff so your brain doesn't have a chance to get dusty.
What I'm getting at is some people need to focus and not be pulled off subject, some people need some distraction to stay fresh and since we're all different people at different stages I think we should keep things loose and leave it up to the members as to which sub forums they think are appropriate for them instead of "lock it down and button it up" so someone somewhere doesn't get pulled off subject.
I think one of the reasons why facepunch fell apart was the caliber of users it attracted after the HL1 mod scene fell apart. Also factor in the raise of other sites that catered more to the higher caliber users needs, wooing them away.