bold move, but I think WAYWO should probably stay, if only for people to just 'show off' what they're doing without wanting to get serious crits or have to have it completely finished, as well as not needing to take up another thread space on the main board
yeah I think we need the waywo thread or something like it... or at least I do. It's a great place to post stuff you dont want or need crits on. Just kind of a "hey here's some cool shit I've been doodling with" thing. Making it image only is a reasonable idea.
I wouldn't worry about taking up space. If the thread dies off, it'll die off quickly to the next page (P&P is our most popular forum).
I can't help but read the 'I want a place to show something without wanting crits' as 'I want some where to feed an ego I may or may not have'.
EDIT: TO clarify that. I don't mean you all have ego's that need to be fed. But generally when I post something I'd rather have a place for people to specifically comment of critique on, rather than dump it in a fray and move on. To me, whats the point?
Continue you posting though, its helping.
Whatever we end up doing - keeping it, moving it, closing it, new features, etc. it'll be with your best interests in mind.
I can't help but read the 'I want a place to show something without wanting crits' as 'I want some where to feed an ego I may or may not have'.
well, about this..
that's exactly what it is for a lot of people.
we're artists. a lot of us like a push, or a kind word. it motivates us to do more. even if it's only from one person out of thousands. so yeah, a place where we can get a quick ego boost sounds like something that might be worth having if it's going to benefit people.
HOWEVER.
it's also a great place to just see what everyone has been up to in one fell swoop... which returns us to the initial problem of people going there are ignoring other threads, however I think each still serve their purpose. There's going to be critical info in the P&P threads that won't be found elsewhere.
as for what actually happens to it, I'm personally indifferent. I just think it's worthwhile to keep or perhaps re-imagine into something similar but maybe more efficient?
I just like being able to go to the thread and see what everyone has been up to rather quickly - I still go to the other threads often.
On that note - lets pretend the WAYWO thread isn't there. It's gone, and you have to make a post for whatever you're working on.
How does that thread - where all you have to do is a title and drop the image in, maybe a line or 2 explaining it - not 'feed the ego'? To me I would think it would do it more-so, since that thread is all about you and your work? :P Ya know?
Or is it that the adding of a title and the feeling of obligation behind a thread is just too much?
Another question: How would WAYWO feel if you were only allowed to post images, no commenting. If you want comments you have to make your own thread. Yay? Neigh?
I'm not a fan of moderating behavior with things like 'images only' 'finished works only' 'no comments' 'only 2d' etc.
You could unsticky it? I don't particularly care if you do or don't though. (although I think there are too many stickies overall...)
I would advocate combining the speed modeling sticky, the low poly art sticky, and the wwaywo sticky all into one thread. There's really no reason for all 3...
EDIT: and also, many of these forums have stickies that could all be combined. Get rid of clutter!
Or is it that the adding of a title and the feeling of obligation behind a thread is just too much?
I think the reason WAYWO is so popular, is because it's so popular - what I mean is that you know your post will be seen by a ton of people, but you also know its going to be quickly overlooked. You don't have to necessarily commit to a thread. It just sits there, and people can check it when they want to. Think of it like a Twitter - people post small blips of images that they are working on, that people may be interested in, in a kind of 'take it or leave it' fashion. Whereas a thread suggests more commitment and "Hey, please give your feedback". If we encouraged new threads for every small project, the main thread page would be flooded with small, one-off posts. Thats sort of how the sketchbook threads came about, though I think their implementation has a bit to be desired.
I vote either kill WAYWO, or make it image only, if possible.
Make it like the homepage at CGHub. Just the most recently posted images from other threads.
Some kind of automated thing that is constantly updating with the most recently uploaded images and when you click on an image it takes you to the thread where it was posted.
Make it like the homepage at CGHub. Just the most recently posted images from other threads.
Some kind of automated thing that is constantly updating with the most recently uploaded images and when you click on an image it takes you to the thread where it was posted.
Just a thought.
I love CGHub's setup for what it is, but I can't speak for the community of it (which is polycount's best aspect by far).
the issue with their homepage is that it's plagued with same-ism. even if there are tons of new images added every day, the 'board' or whatever the image homepage is, is 90% of the same stuff for weeks, or at the very least, the same artists. (from my experience visiting, I could be wrong)
It's cool, and maybe something like that could be an option... I don't know.
Make it like the homepage at CGHub. Just the most recently posted images from other threads.
Some kind of automated thing that is constantly updating with the most recently uploaded images and when you click on an image it takes you to the thread where it was posted.
I'm a WAYWO fiend and mainly due to the fact it feels nice to contribute to... its something thats moving and full of different things and i dont care if anything i posts get comments/asspats or what, i just feel all the better for keeping a thread like that alive. I post almost exclusively in a speedpaint thread on another board too.
I end up tinkering on a lot of small things and the subjects vary so much that well... the sketchbook thread is ideal for me, ill occasionally crosspost or have a WIP in the WAYWO and finished shit in my sketchbook. This isnt for not wanting crits though, id definately love to hear peoples opinions but at the same time i think id be asking too much of someone if i posted a thread that i updated with wips and whatnot.. all of a sudden im asking something of your time and i often feel like what ive made doesnt warrent bumping a thread and trying to get someone to say something... ill ask one on one instead, right emil! :E
In short though I dont really mind what happens as long as it doesnt end up like conceptart.org - a mass of overlooked threads across tens of subsections with everyone flocking to the 5 star threads. Perhaps the WAYWO is good in that it does expose you to a lot of work from different people?
I vote either kill WAYWO, or make it image only, if possible.
The same. I don't think it is a good thread for feedback and the such. Conversations get twisted and turned into others and before you know it you have no idea what people are referring to.
I don't see why there aren't more (singular) bumps in the WayWo thread linking to people's actual work threads, ie, showing what they're working on, and providing that image preview with a link to where feedback can be delivered. Maybe it's too many clicks.
I guess it is kind of obnoxious to repost the same image(s) in multiple spots though.
If the waywo thread were locked, but new posts were made that had the thread title, and the images posted within a thread, automatically for you all to see that might be cool. Then, if you want to comment, you click on any of the images to go to the thread directly.
Exactly what I was thinking when I was making a sandwich just now, adam!
Basically a centralized directory or gallery that points towards threads. But where, then, would people post who are not looking for feedback? Page-to-page, the waywo thread wavers between people who want/need feedback and people who are already awesome and post inspiring/educational images to look at.
Which is the thread's true purpose, and how can we have access to both without becoming a star-based ego-rating site? I'm just worried that if thread creation becomes mandatory, many amazing artists would stop posting their cool tidbits. If I were posting something myself, I would not want to make a new thread, but would rather keep a sketchbook-type thread (if not in the sketchbook section itself) to catalogue "what I am working on." But that's me.
It's reliable when I need a creative inspiration fix, provides a place for me to reciprocate and dump anything that might be inspirational for someone else, and there are less clicks to see art. It's like the thread is machine-gunning awesome directly into my eyes.
If there are new posts in the WAYWO thread, I can be sure there will be new art (well, 95% of the time). Other threads I don't know until I actually get in there. If there's no art, I have to back out and roll the die with another thread.
Polycount's WAYWO thread is one of the reasons why i initially joined the polycount community:
After all these years, the pimping section and WAWYO thread has generally remained 'undiluted' and streamlined - void of all the crappy threads/ dead topics that plagues cgtalk (which unfortunately seems to be developing in gameartisans.org - and i'm sure which eventually contributed to cgchats demise).
I would contribute this continued awesomeness mainly to the skill level, dedication and support of the artist's and the admins like yourself.
Much like the 'design/navigation' rules/dogma of a portfolio, the current pimp thread/WAWYO minimizes the need to delve through pages of fluff and irrelevant comments to get to the actual content. I currently like the idea that WAWYO is for w.i.p's and if finished (Ben.....), or if the artist is inclined for more exposure (for whatever reason/critique/gratification) he/she/it can create a sep. thread.
I can understand the need to evolve and update for the future (woot! web 2.0..or iWeb), but a lot of the ideas/suggestions presented (please correct me if i'm wrong) lean towards emulating aspects of forums that we want to avoid(i.e. separating topics into sub-topics, sub-sub-topics and sub-sub-sub topics) in order to retain what makes polycount an effective and unique community.
If the waywo thread were locked, but new posts were made that had the thread title, and the images posted within a thread, automatically for you all to see that might be cool. Then, if you want to comment, you click on any of the images to go to the thread directly.
Maybe you should elaborate before you get ignored, aesir
The idea being you guys want a quick way to see if threads are up your alley or not, and this would do that. It just wouldn't feed the 'ego' aspect of WAYWO discussed earlier.
But it would be nice to have in another place. Isolated streaming image update hub on what threads are what sounds super useful. Though it is not entirely unlike thread thumbnails or a frontpage gallery, it would ideally be unbiased, an automated resource to check in on what is being posted.
I'm remembering the main thread for entries during DomWar that allowed people to update the image and info with a link to their individual thread; made it easier to browse the forum. So very convenient. Kind of like an 'expand all' that threads first posts together for easy perusal.
This just hit me, and its why I personally dislike the WAYWO thread: Entirely TOO much good art gets posted there that I would normally comment on, but don't because it'll just get lost in the fray too quickly. And really, what am I going to do? Post a critique to someone's post in there just to have it followed up by Johnny Art's newest torso model or rock sculpt? I dunno, its a waste of time for me to comment with anything besides "Badass!", I feel.
So much badass art is in the thread that all I feel we can do is view, and not talk about. And if it were in its own thread, we could.
I don't entirely 'get' the ego aspect, because really my ego gets more from a thread dedicated to me (me! me! me!) and what I am doing than a simple little post in WAYWO.
I'm still going to push for the roll-over feature - as its separate from WAYWO and doesn't effect its presence - and I think would be a wicked addition to the boards.
This thread right now is very awesome, by the way. I love hearing about the habits you guys have within the site. A very good understanding is coming from this - even if I don't entirely dig it myself (doesn't matter if I do or don't, really).
I definately like the idea of having an automatically generated WAYWO thread that allows for linking to where the images are posted... be it sketchbooks or threads in p n p. That could potentially be the best of both worlds surely?
What if the Sketchbook thread was WAYWO? I mean, it pretty much is - at this point - a more elaborate WAYWO thread. You can dump your stuff there and forget about it if you'd like. From there we can do this whole automated mumbo-jumbo 'Sketchbook Updates' that is essentially the WAYWO thread, but listing all the images that're new to Sketchbook.
how's about we end this massive compulsion to organize and categorize polycount to rigidly adhere to someone's idea of what an artist is and how one is supposed to act. Some people like the WAYWO thread --obviously more than making a thread of their own. why would we force these people to express themselves in the way YOU want them to express themselves? What's the fucking point? did it ever occur to you that if as you narrow down the means of human expression, you're quickly narrowing the range of people who will express themselves on this forum?
trying to hard to make the world like yourself, people.. instead of changing to match the world.
Here's some unavoidable logic, and a simple choice:
creating more rigid rules for how we should express ourselves slowly builds a community of people who only express themselves in that way.. duh. in other words, you're defining what an artist is, and only supporting THAT type of expression. it's assuming that you've got some sort of ultimate perspective.
The choice -- it's perfectly FINE if you guys want to move polycount into being a place where only linear, structured, overly-organized people hang out, but in my opinion (and i'd be happy to back it up) you all will suffer as artists and human beings.
you'll think that you're getting better, but you'll just be narrowing your scope so that you surround yourself with people who validate what you already do. you'd cull expressions that you don't see as fitting with what you already want, instead of changing YOURSELF to understand them:
in other words, you'd be a coward.
the choice is between accepting or repressing difference. accept everything and it'll be chaos... but what's happening around here lately is almost the opposite of that.
Okay. You should re-read the thread before asking what the point is. It's been brought up form both sides of the awesome coin.
Who's saying anything about rigid rules? We are interested in looking for a way for artists to be able to dump their artwork AND get feedback on it because that is what we do here. And if that is all wrapped up in an easy way to view ALL art work quickly, rather than dump through one thread after another than perfect. Mission accomplished.
Thanks for the reply but you've missed the point from where I came in to this thread. The point isn't to force rules to get people to post a certain way, it's for us to better understand habits - pose questions about said habits - and see if there's a solution for that are fitting for both sides. And if I didn't articulate that well enough than I apologize but your tone speaks otherwise.
Polycount is not an image dump. It's not here for you to stop in, post an image, and carry on just to check back a day later and see how much praise the image got. There's absolutely no benefit in that to the development in a skillset. None.
Sexy videogame art. Post. Comment. Criticize. Feedback. Discussion.
I don't entirely 'get' the ego aspect, because really my ego gets more from a thread dedicated to me (me! me! me!) and what I am doing than a simple little post in WAYWO.
Ego is a complicated term, and I feel bad discussing it; what do I know about the psychology of other artists? Who am I to say so many artists are probably shy and don't want to face criticism (knowing they can improve on their own), or are successful and badass yet insecure? When, perhaps, they simply don't have time for (potentially meaningless) discussion between work and life, so they just post their stuff to the quick-moving art dump thread, are done with it, and move on.
I don't know! It is perplexing. Oh, the quandaries of life. For example, my avatar is green because I'm shy and wish to voice individuality without standing out. It is a form of social camouflage.
I like WAYWO. It's probably the best place on the entire Internets.
It's also, I think, good to keep P&P threads to a minimum. Already it is so that if you have a title that isn't particularly catchy, you get thrown off the first page in a day. That's already a bit too dynamic for my tastes. In seperate threads, famous Polycounters, who don't particularly need advice as badly, will get more hits than newbies who are out for it. WAYWO is great because you guarantee there's good art and people will visit it, and while you're visiting it, you can easily comment on whoever you think needs it most. (In theory. In reality, we get whole pages of lauding comments anyway. I hate those and try never to post unless I also have something to criticise)
Personally I'd rather see the sketchbooks go, or be merged with P&P again. They really don't get much attention besides 'keep going'; a poorer place for criticism than either WAYWO or P&P, if you ask me, and it's very hard to link between other places.
To be honest, I've never actually thought of using WAYWO as a directional hub for P&P, posting your progress from a thread and linking to it. That always seemed like double posting to me. It's an interesting thought, though.
I should mention that I can enjoy what WAYWO is. I view it every day while I drink my coffee. I just don't like feeling like a dirty ol' admin viewing it as it doesn't entice me to want to post about what I am looking at. Where as the individual threads do.
Ego is a complicated term, and I feel bad discussing it; what do I know about the psychology of other artists? Who am I to say so many artists are probably shy and don't want to face criticism (knowing they can improve on their own), or are successful and badass yet insecure? When, perhaps, they simply don't have time for (potentially meaningless) discussion between work and life, so they just post their stuff to the quick-moving art dump thread, are done with it, and move on.
I don't know! It is perplexing. Oh, the quandaries of life. For example, my avatar is green because I'm shy and wish to voice individuality without standing out. It is a form of social camouflage.
how's about we end this massive compulsion to organize and categorize polycount to rigidly adhere to someone's idea of what an artist is and how one is supposed to act. Some people like the WAYWO thread --obviously more than making a thread of their own. why would we force these people to express themselves in the way YOU want them to express themselves? What's the fucking point? did it ever occur to you that if as you narrow down the means of human expression, you're quickly narrowing the range of people who will express themselves on this forum?
trying to hard to make the world like yourself, people.. instead of changing to match the world.
Here's some unavoidable logic, and a simple choice:
creating more rigid rules for how we should express ourselves slowly builds a community of people who only express themselves in that way.. duh. in other words, you're defining what an artist is, and only supporting THAT type of expression. it's assuming that you've got some sort of ultimate perspective.
The choice -- it's perfectly FINE if you guys want to move polycount into being a place where only linear, structured, overly-organized people hang out, but in my opinion (and i'd be happy to back it up) you all will suffer as artists and human beings.
you'll think that you're getting better, but you'll just be narrowing your scope so that you surround yourself with people who validate what you already do. you'd cull expressions that you don't see as fitting with what you already want, instead of changing YOURSELF to understand them:
in other words, you'd be a coward.
the choice is between accepting or repressing difference. accept everything and it'll be chaos... but what's happening around here lately is almost the opposite of that.
we are trying to understand and make the the site work better for the users. period.
In case you're forgotten, we've been doing this longer than any other game art website. We've not done this by stiffing or restricting people's participation on this site. In fact, its been quite the opposite. We are here because we've followed what the community has wanted and provided that. In case you weren't in the know but this site used to be a Quake 2 models depot. Guess what? The community showed that they wanted more than that. Guess what? We did that. We are trying to continue to polish this beast we call polycount so that it continues to serve the needs of the community. This isn't about any single person's agenda.
Your wiliness proclaim that we're trying to redefine the way the world works or that we're stiffing someone's free expression? All total bullshit on your part. You are so full of idealistic shit and jargon that you have inexplicably pushed into us in your post that have completely destroyed your real point. Which actually might be something simple like: "ohnos change! I'm unsure about this."
Mister Warner, you sir, are a fool, or perhaps an idiot if you are more comfortable with that label. I'm comfortable with either; whatever works within your world of idealistic free-form thought.
I should mention that I can enjoy what WAYWO is. I view it every day while I drink my coffee. I just don't like feeling like a dirty ol' admin viewing it as it doesn't entice me to want to post about what I am looking at. Where as the individual threads do.
Maybe you should elaborate before you get ignored, aesir
yea, yea, i know not helpful at all.
My basic thesis is that the best design is the most simple. Many of the ideas being tossed around seem to be complicating things with no real gain. Do people really need a thread with a directory to current threads with pictures? We have a current thread directory already.
While I agree that too much good art gets posted in the waywo thread, that really should have their own threads, that's the user's choice to put his work an area that limits discussion.
I also agree that the waywo thread serves to cull an over abundance of threads in the P&P area, a usefulness that shouldn't be underrated. If it were to disappear, then I suspect many new users asking for help would have their threads ignored more often than they are now.
The digital sketchbook section, while not a necessary element to the forum, is a nice way of keeping all your current unimportant projects in one place for others to view. I think it works as more of a 2d area to the majority who use it. I don't think most people do or would use it to post the types of things that are usually posted in the waywo thread (although I'm sure if you tried to get people to move in that direction, it would be possible). However, the more you move in that direction, the more you have two separate sub-forums, both of which have the same type of art in it, just separated by a posting format where threads are separated by user rather than by piece. That seems needlessly complicated.
If people real feel it's too difficult to find good work, than you can adopt conceptart.org's system of having thumbnails next to a thread. However, that is a feature that I turned off because it takes up too much space, and I already look at all the threads (for the most part).
Why did this thread become a kill/keep WAYWO discussion. Leave WAYWO alone!
I personally get most of my inspiration from WAYWO, as do many other fellow polycounters. I don't see why its even being discussed.
I think Adam brings a good topic into the discussion, which is How do we improve the quality of the PnP forum? The idea of a rollover image preview, a rating system similar to ConceptArt.org, a dedicated gallery that links to peoples threads, those are all amazing ideas which can be implemented as icing on the already delicious PnP cake. But to take away something as poular as WAYWO with the excuse that its not a good place to crit, or that art gets overlooked, or whatever... I just don't get it. The thread gained its rightful place at the top of the PnP forums because people flocked to it, because people wanted it, because people are inspired by it, because people come to polycount for it. You dig? I'm all for improving polycount by making it easier to get to the good stuff, and opening a wider door for feedback on the stuff that gets into the WAYWO thread. But killing WAYWO is just gonna piss a lot of people off. Its better to show them a better way first and just let WAYWO die on its own. Polycount is the fucken best, I love that we are discussing on how to make it better.
Try to answer this: why do people love WAYWO? and then implementing those reasons to the rest of the forums. and then we can celebrate the day WAYWO gets unstickied, but for all the right reasons.
aesir and master, VERY good feedback on the issue. Master I am pretty well in tune with what you're saying. I am not after removing WAYWO, just improving P&P. The initial thought was 'kill WAYWO and more threads will be posted' but clearly that is not an option.
I can't wait to see what you guys do when the forums are rearranged! (3D & 2D first, General second, etc.)
This just hit me, and its why I personally dislike the WAYWO thread: Entirely TOO much good art gets posted there that I would normally comment on, but don't because it'll just get lost in the fray too quickly.
that is why I love the waywo thread, i'm much more likely to stumble across something awesome in there than digging through twenty threads with dry and boring titles that don't make me want to clicky
what would work, but would require futzing with the boards an awful lot would be for the waywo thread to be some sort of amalgamation of a thread and board, you visit the thread like normal, but only posts with pictures are displayed, and when you click that post is nests the comments on it underneath the post itself.
wow, getting into it with R13, this is a first. tell me, if i call you an idiot, will you ban me? i've never been martyred before.
Polycount, in more people's opinion than mine, has become a lot more rigid over the past while. I'm not against change at all -- it just always seems to be towards a type of organization that i don't agree with. Posting 'nonsense' is frowned uppon -- "we have a thread for that" -- well who decides what's nonsense, there's a lot of stuff that makes me an artist. who says what's relevant and what isn't? now -- I don't bitch about this stuff, cuz i figure "fine, they're probably right, we shouldn't have a forum full of spam. and besides, most people seem to agree" but this seems to be a process that's just generalizing out. first it was silly videos. now polycount isn't my blog. well what is it for exactly? who decides? do I have a vote?
well I'm fucking voting right now, and i'm being called an idiot. thaaaaaaaaaaaaaatss retarded, isn't it? yes it is.
look guys, it's been quite obvious for a while here that I've been fitting in less and less with the mainstreem way that things are going here, and that's fine. I'm well aware of the tension between myself and some of the mods.
it could be that I just don't fit anymore and i should tip out the door.. but I'm not going to just leave the place that I've posted at for 10 years without speaking my mind. if you think that's idiotic....
btw, if you think I'm an idealist who believes in free-form thought, then you didn't read the last bit of my post, where I qualified what I said.
that is why I love the waywo thread, i'm much more likely to stumble across something awesome in there than digging through twenty threads with dry and boring titles that don't make me want to clicky
what would work, but would require futzing with the boards an awful lot would be for the waywo thread to be some sort of amalgamation of a thread and board, you visit the thread like normal, but only posts with pictures are displayed, and when you click that post is nests the comments on it underneath the post itself.
I think we actually have this feature already but I can't apply it to one specific thread, it has to be applied to an entire forum. I *think*. It's called threaded view, I believe.
Techncially no, its not just for pimping off finished works of art, its also for previewing what you're working on.
One of the most valuable reasons why people use polycount is that as they're working they can get advice and course corrections as they go so they have something better to pimp off.
It's most beneficial if they post at the end of each stage.
Post the sculpt/model before unwrapping.
Post the unwrap before baking and materials.
Post the final model.
If they wait until the end they'll probably be told that they f-ed up an earlier stage and they need to go back and a fix it, which they'll hang their head in shame and never bother posting art again until its perfect, read: never again.
A good P&P thread has the OP come out looking like this guy or this guys. Notice the big smiles through bruised faces, that's a good thread, someone learned something and had something worth looking at by the time it was all done.
The whole P&P name thing came up when we discussed changing the name of "2D/3D Discussion" to "Technical Talk" because people had trouble figuring out where to post technical questions. P&P was left alone because WIP/Finished art was boring and holy hell you couldn't change two things at once back then without everyone soiling themselves.
Maybe its time for a newer more vanilla name that makes sense to the masses?
"It's most beneficial if they post at the end of each stage.
Post the sculpt/model before unwrapping.
Post the unwrap before baking and materials.
Post the final model.
"
Yes!!! But if it's neither, you are only starting the project and want some help, or stopped in the middle at a certain point, wish to post and see what people would suggest you to do otherwise in terms to achieve your task?
I use Technical Talk section for that "<.<"
As for the name I can only think "not so pimping preview" <.< Or I missed out the name you guys have been voting for.
Keep it simple, Pimping and Previews should be used however anyone wants to use it. We don't need a gallery because polycount isn't for showing off your work, its a place to learn and build a portfolio.
If you want to see finished art go to people's websites.
John... it's not what you say so much as how you say it. You always jump in and debate something or other and start calling names, preaching your opinions as if they are widespread fact. I haven't even been here for a fraction of the time you have, but I have learned that much about your posting habits.
I hate to get off on this tangent, but you shouldn't be "getting into it" with anyone; that's hardly constructive, and not really a debate - namecalling is a personal issue - and if it's "becoming a lot more rigid" to behave like adults when it comes to treating one another with respect (and presenting one's ideas without yon angstful spite) then I'm all for it.
But, with a join date post-1995, the value of my personal preference towards peaceable interpersonal maturity is sort of moot. Just seems common sense, is all, coming from the outside world.
edit: and really I should have sent this in a PM. Whoops.
Keep it simple, Pimping and Previews should be used however anyone wants to use it. We don't need a gallery because polycount isn't for showing off your work, its a place to learn and build a portfolio.
If you want to see finished art go to people's websites.
I think we actually have this feature already but I can't apply it to one specific thread, it has to be applied to an entire forum. I *think*. It's called threaded view, I believe.
users can turn it on themselves, but it doesn't work like i'd like, it shows the posts in a seperate frame and the content of the post below the frame.
while we're on the subject of features, the view all posts on the old boards was VERY nice
users can turn it on themselves, but it doesn't work like i'd like, it shows the posts in a seperate frame and the content of the post below the frame.
while we're on the subject of features, the view all posts on the old boards was VERY nice
You mean where you can break the paging and just have it show every reply on 1 page?
Replies
I can't help but read the 'I want a place to show something without wanting crits' as 'I want some where to feed an ego I may or may not have'.
EDIT: TO clarify that. I don't mean you all have ego's that need to be fed. But generally when I post something I'd rather have a place for people to specifically comment of critique on, rather than dump it in a fray and move on. To me, whats the point?
Continue you posting though, its helping.
Whatever we end up doing - keeping it, moving it, closing it, new features, etc. it'll be with your best interests in mind.
well, about this..
that's exactly what it is for a lot of people.
we're artists. a lot of us like a push, or a kind word. it motivates us to do more. even if it's only from one person out of thousands. so yeah, a place where we can get a quick ego boost sounds like something that might be worth having if it's going to benefit people.
HOWEVER.
it's also a great place to just see what everyone has been up to in one fell swoop... which returns us to the initial problem of people going there are ignoring other threads, however I think each still serve their purpose. There's going to be critical info in the P&P threads that won't be found elsewhere.
as for what actually happens to it, I'm personally indifferent. I just think it's worthwhile to keep or perhaps re-imagine into something similar but maybe more efficient?
I just like being able to go to the thread and see what everyone has been up to rather quickly - I still go to the other threads often.
On that note - lets pretend the WAYWO thread isn't there. It's gone, and you have to make a post for whatever you're working on.
How does that thread - where all you have to do is a title and drop the image in, maybe a line or 2 explaining it - not 'feed the ego'? To me I would think it would do it more-so, since that thread is all about you and your work? :P Ya know?
Or is it that the adding of a title and the feeling of obligation behind a thread is just too much?
Another question: How would WAYWO feel if you were only allowed to post images, no commenting. If you want comments you have to make your own thread. Yay? Neigh?
You could unsticky it? I don't particularly care if you do or don't though. (although I think there are too many stickies overall...)
I would advocate combining the speed modeling sticky, the low poly art sticky, and the wwaywo sticky all into one thread. There's really no reason for all 3...
EDIT: and also, many of these forums have stickies that could all be combined. Get rid of clutter!
I like the WAYWO thread, sometimes its easier to see cool stuff then browsing every single thread in P&P..
ben
I think the reason WAYWO is so popular, is because it's so popular - what I mean is that you know your post will be seen by a ton of people, but you also know its going to be quickly overlooked. You don't have to necessarily commit to a thread. It just sits there, and people can check it when they want to. Think of it like a Twitter - people post small blips of images that they are working on, that people may be interested in, in a kind of 'take it or leave it' fashion. Whereas a thread suggests more commitment and "Hey, please give your feedback". If we encouraged new threads for every small project, the main thread page would be flooded with small, one-off posts. Thats sort of how the sketchbook threads came about, though I think their implementation has a bit to be desired.
In short, I vote for keeping it the same.
Make it like the homepage at CGHub. Just the most recently posted images from other threads.
Some kind of automated thing that is constantly updating with the most recently uploaded images and when you click on an image it takes you to the thread where it was posted.
Just a thought.
I love CGHub's setup for what it is, but I can't speak for the community of it (which is polycount's best aspect by far).
the issue with their homepage is that it's plagued with same-ism. even if there are tons of new images added every day, the 'board' or whatever the image homepage is, is 90% of the same stuff for weeks, or at the very least, the same artists. (from my experience visiting, I could be wrong)
It's cool, and maybe something like that could be an option... I don't know.
Neat idea!
I'm a WAYWO fiend and mainly due to the fact it feels nice to contribute to... its something thats moving and full of different things and i dont care if anything i posts get comments/asspats or what, i just feel all the better for keeping a thread like that alive. I post almost exclusively in a speedpaint thread on another board too.
I end up tinkering on a lot of small things and the subjects vary so much that well... the sketchbook thread is ideal for me, ill occasionally crosspost or have a WIP in the WAYWO and finished shit in my sketchbook. This isnt for not wanting crits though, id definately love to hear peoples opinions but at the same time i think id be asking too much of someone if i posted a thread that i updated with wips and whatnot.. all of a sudden im asking something of your time and i often feel like what ive made doesnt warrent bumping a thread and trying to get someone to say something... ill ask one on one instead, right emil! :E
In short though I dont really mind what happens as long as it doesnt end up like conceptart.org - a mass of overlooked threads across tens of subsections with everyone flocking to the 5 star threads. Perhaps the WAYWO is good in that it does expose you to a lot of work from different people?
The same. I don't think it is a good thread for feedback and the such. Conversations get twisted and turned into others and before you know it you have no idea what people are referring to.
I guess it is kind of obnoxious to repost the same image(s) in multiple spots though.
If the waywo thread were locked, but new posts were made that had the thread title, and the images posted within a thread, automatically for you all to see that might be cool. Then, if you want to comment, you click on any of the images to go to the thread directly.
INTERESTING!
Basically a centralized directory or gallery that points towards threads. But where, then, would people post who are not looking for feedback? Page-to-page, the waywo thread wavers between people who want/need feedback and people who are already awesome and post inspiring/educational images to look at.
Which is the thread's true purpose, and how can we have access to both without becoming a star-based ego-rating site? I'm just worried that if thread creation becomes mandatory, many amazing artists would stop posting their cool tidbits. If I were posting something myself, I would not want to make a new thread, but would rather keep a sketchbook-type thread (if not in the sketchbook section itself) to catalogue "what I am working on." But that's me.
I guess Ferg says it.
It's reliable when I need a creative inspiration fix, provides a place for me to reciprocate and dump anything that might be inspirational for someone else, and there are less clicks to see art. It's like the thread is machine-gunning awesome directly into my eyes.
If there are new posts in the WAYWO thread, I can be sure there will be new art (well, 95% of the time). Other threads I don't know until I actually get in there. If there's no art, I have to back out and roll the die with another thread.
Polycount's WAYWO thread is one of the reasons why i initially joined the polycount community:
After all these years, the pimping section and WAWYO thread has generally remained 'undiluted' and streamlined - void of all the crappy threads/ dead topics that plagues cgtalk (which unfortunately seems to be developing in gameartisans.org - and i'm sure which eventually contributed to cgchats demise).
I would contribute this continued awesomeness
Much like the 'design/navigation' rules/dogma of a portfolio, the current pimp thread/WAWYO minimizes the need to delve through pages of fluff and irrelevant comments to get to the actual content. I currently like the idea that WAWYO is for w.i.p's and if finished (Ben.....), or if the artist is inclined for more exposure (for whatever reason/critique/gratification) he/she/it can create a sep. thread.
I can understand the need to evolve and update for the future (woot! web 2.0..or iWeb), but a lot of the ideas/suggestions presented (please correct me if i'm wrong) lean towards emulating aspects of forums that we want to avoid(i.e. separating topics into sub-topics, sub-sub-topics and sub-sub-sub topics) in order to retain what makes polycount an effective and unique community.
just my feelings.
I think this is terrible.
The idea being you guys want a quick way to see if threads are up your alley or not, and this would do that. It just wouldn't feed the 'ego' aspect of WAYWO discussed earlier.
Again, though, its just an idea.
I'm remembering the main thread for entries during DomWar that allowed people to update the image and info with a link to their individual thread; made it easier to browse the forum. So very convenient. Kind of like an 'expand all' that threads first posts together for easy perusal.
So much badass art is in the thread that all I feel we can do is view, and not talk about. And if it were in its own thread, we could.
I don't entirely 'get' the ego aspect, because really my ego gets more from a thread dedicated to me (me! me! me!) and what I am doing than a simple little post in WAYWO.
I'm still going to push for the roll-over feature - as its separate from WAYWO and doesn't effect its presence - and I think would be a wicked addition to the boards.
This thread right now is very awesome, by the way. I love hearing about the habits you guys have within the site. A very good understanding is coming from this - even if I don't entirely dig it myself (doesn't matter if I do or don't, really).
So.. keep it coming!
What if the Sketchbook thread was WAYWO? I mean, it pretty much is - at this point - a more elaborate WAYWO thread. You can dump your stuff there and forget about it if you'd like. From there we can do this whole automated mumbo-jumbo 'Sketchbook Updates' that is essentially the WAYWO thread, but listing all the images that're new to Sketchbook.
/braindump
how's about we end this massive compulsion to organize and categorize polycount to rigidly adhere to someone's idea of what an artist is and how one is supposed to act. Some people like the WAYWO thread --obviously more than making a thread of their own. why would we force these people to express themselves in the way YOU want them to express themselves? What's the fucking point? did it ever occur to you that if as you narrow down the means of human expression, you're quickly narrowing the range of people who will express themselves on this forum?
trying to hard to make the world like yourself, people.. instead of changing to match the world.
Here's some unavoidable logic, and a simple choice:
creating more rigid rules for how we should express ourselves slowly builds a community of people who only express themselves in that way.. duh. in other words, you're defining what an artist is, and only supporting THAT type of expression. it's assuming that you've got some sort of ultimate perspective.
The choice -- it's perfectly FINE if you guys want to move polycount into being a place where only linear, structured, overly-organized people hang out, but in my opinion (and i'd be happy to back it up) you all will suffer as artists and human beings.
you'll think that you're getting better, but you'll just be narrowing your scope so that you surround yourself with people who validate what you already do. you'd cull expressions that you don't see as fitting with what you already want, instead of changing YOURSELF to understand them:
in other words, you'd be a coward.
the choice is between accepting or repressing difference. accept everything and it'll be chaos... but what's happening around here lately is almost the opposite of that.
Who's saying anything about rigid rules? We are interested in looking for a way for artists to be able to dump their artwork AND get feedback on it because that is what we do here. And if that is all wrapped up in an easy way to view ALL art work quickly, rather than dump through one thread after another than perfect. Mission accomplished.
Thanks for the reply but you've missed the point from where I came in to this thread. The point isn't to force rules to get people to post a certain way, it's for us to better understand habits - pose questions about said habits - and see if there's a solution for that are fitting for both sides. And if I didn't articulate that well enough than I apologize but your tone speaks otherwise.
Polycount is not an image dump. It's not here for you to stop in, post an image, and carry on just to check back a day later and see how much praise the image got. There's absolutely no benefit in that to the development in a skillset. None.
Sexy videogame art. Post. Comment. Criticize. Feedback. Discussion.
Ego is a complicated term, and I feel bad discussing it; what do I know about the psychology of other artists? Who am I to say so many artists are probably shy and don't want to face criticism (knowing they can improve on their own), or are successful and badass yet insecure? When, perhaps, they simply don't have time for (potentially meaningless) discussion between work and life, so they just post their stuff to the quick-moving art dump thread, are done with it, and move on.
I don't know! It is perplexing. Oh, the quandaries of life. For example, my avatar is green because I'm shy and wish to voice individuality without standing out. It is a form of social camouflage.
It's also, I think, good to keep P&P threads to a minimum. Already it is so that if you have a title that isn't particularly catchy, you get thrown off the first page in a day. That's already a bit too dynamic for my tastes. In seperate threads, famous Polycounters, who don't particularly need advice as badly, will get more hits than newbies who are out for it. WAYWO is great because you guarantee there's good art and people will visit it, and while you're visiting it, you can easily comment on whoever you think needs it most. (In theory. In reality, we get whole pages of lauding comments anyway. I hate those and try never to post unless I also have something to criticise)
Personally I'd rather see the sketchbooks go, or be merged with P&P again. They really don't get much attention besides 'keep going'; a poorer place for criticism than either WAYWO or P&P, if you ask me, and it's very hard to link between other places.
To be honest, I've never actually thought of using WAYWO as a directional hub for P&P, posting your progress from a thread and linking to it. That always seemed like double posting to me. It's an interesting thought, though.
S'bout it, really.
ahaha..
Also, this.
we are trying to understand and make the the site work better for the users. period.
In case you're forgotten, we've been doing this longer than any other game art website. We've not done this by stiffing or restricting people's participation on this site. In fact, its been quite the opposite. We are here because we've followed what the community has wanted and provided that. In case you weren't in the know but this site used to be a Quake 2 models depot. Guess what? The community showed that they wanted more than that. Guess what? We did that. We are trying to continue to polish this beast we call polycount so that it continues to serve the needs of the community. This isn't about any single person's agenda.
Your wiliness proclaim that we're trying to redefine the way the world works or that we're stiffing someone's free expression? All total bullshit on your part. You are so full of idealistic shit and jargon that you have inexplicably pushed into us in your post that have completely destroyed your real point. Which actually might be something simple like: "ohnos change! I'm unsure about this."
Mister Warner, you sir, are a fool, or perhaps an idiot if you are more comfortable with that label. I'm comfortable with either; whatever works within your world of idealistic free-form thought.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g192/achmedthesnake/geriatrics-love-the-apple-store-too.jpg
yea, yea, i know not helpful at all.
My basic thesis is that the best design is the most simple. Many of the ideas being tossed around seem to be complicating things with no real gain. Do people really need a thread with a directory to current threads with pictures? We have a current thread directory already.
While I agree that too much good art gets posted in the waywo thread, that really should have their own threads, that's the user's choice to put his work an area that limits discussion.
I also agree that the waywo thread serves to cull an over abundance of threads in the P&P area, a usefulness that shouldn't be underrated. If it were to disappear, then I suspect many new users asking for help would have their threads ignored more often than they are now.
The digital sketchbook section, while not a necessary element to the forum, is a nice way of keeping all your current unimportant projects in one place for others to view. I think it works as more of a 2d area to the majority who use it. I don't think most people do or would use it to post the types of things that are usually posted in the waywo thread (although I'm sure if you tried to get people to move in that direction, it would be possible). However, the more you move in that direction, the more you have two separate sub-forums, both of which have the same type of art in it, just separated by a posting format where threads are separated by user rather than by piece. That seems needlessly complicated.
If people real feel it's too difficult to find good work, than you can adopt conceptart.org's system of having thumbnails next to a thread. However, that is a feature that I turned off because it takes up too much space, and I already look at all the threads (for the most part).
conclusion: K.I.S.S. (not the rock band)
I personally get most of my inspiration from WAYWO, as do many other fellow polycounters. I don't see why its even being discussed.
I think Adam brings a good topic into the discussion, which is How do we improve the quality of the PnP forum? The idea of a rollover image preview, a rating system similar to ConceptArt.org, a dedicated gallery that links to peoples threads, those are all amazing ideas which can be implemented as icing on the already delicious PnP cake. But to take away something as poular as WAYWO with the excuse that its not a good place to crit, or that art gets overlooked, or whatever... I just don't get it. The thread gained its rightful place at the top of the PnP forums because people flocked to it, because people wanted it, because people are inspired by it, because people come to polycount for it. You dig? I'm all for improving polycount by making it easier to get to the good stuff, and opening a wider door for feedback on the stuff that gets into the WAYWO thread. But killing WAYWO is just gonna piss a lot of people off. Its better to show them a better way first and just let WAYWO die on its own. Polycount is the fucken best, I love that we are discussing on how to make it better.
Try to answer this: why do people love WAYWO? and then implementing those reasons to the rest of the forums. and then we can celebrate the day WAYWO gets unstickied, but for all the right reasons.
I can't wait to see what you guys do when the forums are rearranged!
that is why I love the waywo thread, i'm much more likely to stumble across something awesome in there than digging through twenty threads with dry and boring titles that don't make me want to clicky
what would work, but would require futzing with the boards an awful lot would be for the waywo thread to be some sort of amalgamation of a thread and board, you visit the thread like normal, but only posts with pictures are displayed, and when you click that post is nests the comments on it underneath the post itself.
Polycount, in more people's opinion than mine, has become a lot more rigid over the past while. I'm not against change at all -- it just always seems to be towards a type of organization that i don't agree with. Posting 'nonsense' is frowned uppon -- "we have a thread for that" -- well who decides what's nonsense, there's a lot of stuff that makes me an artist. who says what's relevant and what isn't? now -- I don't bitch about this stuff, cuz i figure "fine, they're probably right, we shouldn't have a forum full of spam. and besides, most people seem to agree" but this seems to be a process that's just generalizing out. first it was silly videos. now polycount isn't my blog. well what is it for exactly? who decides? do I have a vote?
well I'm fucking voting right now, and i'm being called an idiot. thaaaaaaaaaaaaaatss retarded, isn't it? yes it is.
look guys, it's been quite obvious for a while here that I've been fitting in less and less with the mainstreem way that things are going here, and that's fine. I'm well aware of the tension between myself and some of the mods.
it could be that I just don't fit anymore and i should tip out the door.. but I'm not going to just leave the place that I've posted at for 10 years without speaking my mind. if you think that's idiotic....
btw, if you think I'm an idealist who believes in free-form thought, then you didn't read the last bit of my post, where I qualified what I said.
I think we actually have this feature already but I can't apply it to one specific thread, it has to be applied to an entire forum. I *think*. It's called threaded view, I believe.
"It's most beneficial if they post at the end of each stage.
Post the sculpt/model before unwrapping.
Post the unwrap before baking and materials.
Post the final model.
"
Yes!!! But if it's neither, you are only starting the project and want some help, or stopped in the middle at a certain point, wish to post and see what people would suggest you to do otherwise in terms to achieve your task?
I use Technical Talk section for that "<.<"
As for the name I can only think "not so pimping preview" <.< Or I missed out the name you guys have been voting for.
Keep it simple, Pimping and Previews should be used however anyone wants to use it. We don't need a gallery because polycount isn't for showing off your work, its a place to learn and build a portfolio.
If you want to see finished art go to people's websites.
I hate to get off on this tangent, but you shouldn't be "getting into it" with anyone; that's hardly constructive, and not really a debate - namecalling is a personal issue - and if it's "becoming a lot more rigid" to behave like adults when it comes to treating one another with respect (and presenting one's ideas without yon angstful spite) then I'm all for it.
But, with a join date post-1995, the value of my personal preference towards peaceable interpersonal maturity is sort of moot. Just seems common sense, is all, coming from the outside world.
edit: and really I should have sent this in a PM. Whoops.
Facepalm followed by swift uppercut.
It's for both you dink!
users can turn it on themselves, but it doesn't work like i'd like, it shows the posts in a seperate frame and the content of the post below the frame.
while we're on the subject of features, the view all posts on the old boards was VERY nice
I should of said "If you want to see a gallery of finished art go to people's websites."
You mean where you can break the paging and just have it show every reply on 1 page?
yeah
i tried it on the waywo thread once
was epic