Scythe, MeintevdS, duncan: thanks a bunch dudes! You're right about the head looking too small, I shrunk the body after haz did a sculptover and I think it looks better but let me know if it still doesn't feel right!
afisher, Duncan, Saman: thanks guys, totally right! I adjusted some of that stuff, thanks. Hopefully it looks better now? As far as the knees yeah since she's got stockings and all I'll smooth it out.
Nyx: that's probably true, man. But in this case I know I'm going to cut off the arms so i can rotate them sorta however i want.
Stage 2: Round 3: 'It's dangerous to go alone! Take this sculpt-over' - (wrapping up main body/head sculpt issues)
So Haz did a sculptover for me of my last update a few days ago: (1-original, 2-haz sculptover, 3-me trying to apply his crits)
noteworthy changes: Haz suggested a ton of form tweakage to make stuff better as you can see above, but also to smooth out a lot of my anatomical detail to keep it more subtle and put the face into a more neutral position that fits with the concept and style better.
So I refined it a bit to try and align more with what Haz was suggesting, did some general refinement and reproportioning, and roughed out some bases for the clothes and all that jazz. I always struggle with how much to poly model vs. sculpt because sometimes I think having too explicit of a basemesh makes it pretty annoying to sculpt on, but then it also looks really clean and sometimes I can't just sculpt everything out from the underlying base. Some parts I left single sided (boots, chest) because they'll have heavier sculpting than other areas and I really don't like sculpting on the edges of stuff. Once i get to sculpting i'll point out any areas that i made mistakes on haha
I'm super scared of approaching the hair because I've always done really chunky stylized hair- i think i'll still lean pretty stylized but a little less chunky than usual, but then I also am unsure how much unique stuff vs. duplicate strands I'll use. I'll either get on that or detailing the clothes next now that all this basemesh stuff is sorta outta the way
This looks awesome, one thing I noticed is the split in the front of the boot. Not sure if it got left out intentionally, but it's just something I noticed.
Hang10, yeah you're right, i decided it'd be easier to just sculpt on something planar rather than having topology define the split flaps of the boot, [EDIT:] BUT i decided everyone was right and I shoulda just done it 2-sided to begin with, not sure what I was afraid of cuz it worked fine
really pretty face! there's something bizarre about her shin and knee area, with this crazy defined arch between the tibia and the sartorius... they do connect through a tendon but here it looks almost like a continuous bony connection.. softening it might help imo
... another small nitpick - the index finger is smaller than the middle finger...
I was talking with Kat today and it prompted me to post this.
Don't pose your hands like that.
Pose your forearms at 50 percent rotation. It will keep your lowpoly from collapsing when you rotate them.
Same with the wrist. Straighten them out.
Ideally all joints should be modeled at 50 percent, but for artistic reasons we don't do that. Half your forearms and wrists and your rigger will thank you for it.
Gah, also the toes.
Keep the line between your hips / knees / and toes coplaner.
thanks a bunch Katia, Duncan, Dylan, Spatz!
Intervain: thanks dude, I'll try and address the knee/tibia area, I might be exaggerating the curves way too far. As for the fingers, you're right haha, it looks like the index finger is longer because of the pose, but i think it's around the right size, i'll do a spin on my next update and would appreciate any pointouts!
hey jesse, i appreciate the insight, man!
It's really nice to hear your concerns with all your experience on proper rig-ready models.
I totally agree if this were in a production environment i'd try and make everything as perfectly rigger-friendly as possible. I still always try to stick to what's possible in production, but I've sorta been trying to keep a tiny little wall between my approach on personal vs. production work as I occasionally found I was compromising my personal vision for the sake of a really rigid production workflow even on pieces that weren't built for that environment. This is a personal struggle in that I began 3d focusing on the technical side first, and I feel it's been constricting my pursuit of art and has made me more valuable to a company as a technician than an artist before. So I've been actively trying to balance that against a more freely artistic approach.
In the case of the forearm I know the underlying arm is gonna be deleted so i can just rotate the whole thing under the sleeve, but for the rest there's no excuse other than 'I thought it looked better as a character'. I definitely agree that this makes rigging/animation more troublesome , but since I'll be rigging it I don't mind going through the extra setup. The return being assurance i won't lose sight of the character in the end due to my weak animation skills since I can't rely on a skilled animation team to do that for me. But if it doesn't work out at all, I'll definitely alter it before rigging
sorry this post is so long. Since I've been journaling all my major decisions I figured i'd fumbled with explaining why i did the posture this way :poly136:
I understand your personal artistic reasons for the pose.
The problem is that when I see a t-pose like this I immediately assume you do not know what you are doing. I can't help but think that others will think the same and in the end that can only hurt you.
Luckily I do know your art and I know you know what you're doing, but this t-pose just puzzles me.
I personally don't like rigid t-poses either and that's why I do mine in a relaxed, natural pose.
i guess he meant he wanted to know why it's wrong doing it that why since they're doing this to learn most they can...
I understand, and in my initial post I stated why that pose was technically not correct or desired when it comes to rigging. I showed the pose to some of my rigging friends and they all pretty much said they would send it back to be fixed.
This is a learning thread, and I'm giving him my advice and suggestions based on my experience.
Even if this model will not be posed by an animator, but only in Zbrush, the theories still hold up. You model joints in a 50 percent rotation so they don't lose their shape when you bend them. This all leads to being a more efficient artist.
I think skankerzero explained it in his first post: without making adjustments, some of the forms can collapse in different poses.
I've seen pretty weird bindposes used in different productions before, but that doesn't mean it's the most rig-friendly way to do it. In this case, although some people will probably think I don't know what I'm doing, a big personal goal with this course is to try and depart from my usual labcoat-approach to personal art. Like skankerzero said, I can't recommend anyone else to try this, but I think it's been one of my biggest personal hangups to improving as an artist
Stage3:Round2: 'Let's Rock!' - (finally doing the fun part of sculpting)
So finally after all that setup and base-sculpting I got to work on the main characteristics of Dizzy with her costume, hair, and accessories. I still have to do her tail-bow, but that wasn't included on the concept :poly122: so I'll probably wait to add it afterwards.
I was sure to polypaint everything roughly as i went along to be sure i had a clear vision in mind as i was sculpting, then I'd toggle the colors on/off of that subtool so i could be sure the form read right without being distracted by colors. Later, when Haz asked to see a fully grey shot of the model I realized I hadn't looked at it in grey yet! After discussing it I know it's important to step back and do that every once in a while. Without colors there's no way to hide bad forms.
The cloth was surprisingly simplistic in that there weren't a ton of fine details, mostly trim. Haz and nizza convinced me to abandon my fear of 2-sided thin geometry, and I cleaned up my bases in Max. Since I knew lotsa the pieces had trim I got a base for that selection by using the shell modifier with edge mapping set to strip or something (then use auto group by uvs to get a selection of that whole inside edge)
Artistically, the big things i want to be sure of is to make sure each material reads distinctly as its own cloth.
Hair was something I was really excited for because it's a pretty defining characteristic for Dizzy. I was experimenting with using more subtools for hair rather than lumping it into really few like i do in speedies, so it's made up of a few: The loopy was from a torus, 2 spheres for bangs, 1 for each side strip, and 1 for the main back mass of the head. This was sorta a pain to deal with and edit, it's easy to bust out pretty quick though, so I'd probably smash it down to just a few subtools before going and refining it next time. Then for the pigtails I did a main mass that I'll bake and then tendrily bits popping off of it that I'll probably just add in the low poly for more dynamism and volume.
As far as surface treatment I was much looser in areas I'm planning on painting more on to avoid having too much detail influencing the painting later. We'll see how well that works out haha
If I might make one crit, the tail kinda feels like it needs a little detailing. I assume the yellow ring will be a bow once you get to it, but the form itself could perhaps use a little form. Looking through a few of the reference images, it looks like a few of the designs have a subtle spine ridge that runs down the top of the tail. I think adding something like that and perhaps playing a little with the sectional shape might make it look nicer.
Regardless, you've got a great piece here. The rotations are kind of mesmerising.
Holy F-ing dogballs...I am in total likeness. I have a slight crush on the unpainted model for now, but I can't wait to see your texturing. Good job mate, this Dizzy's making me dizzy
" Haz and nizza convinced me to abandon my fear of 2-sided thin geometry, and I cleaned up my bases in Max. Since I knew lotsa the pieces had trim I got a base for that selection by using the shell modifier with edge mapping set to strip or something (then use auto group by uvs to get a selection of that whole inside edge) "
Would you mind going more into detail or showing a specific example of this process ?
Amazing work man.
I was also going to ask for a little more info on what you exactly did about the 2 sided thin geometry because I also always struggle when working on clothing, some parts of it are sticking on the other side after I am done sculpting, so if you have time will be great to hear how you went about that.
@gir - I have yes and it kind of does the job, but when I try to dig in it it still makes some of it stick out on the other side so I have to constantly turn it on/off and if somehow the two sides of the geometry are visible I have to work on the two sides interdependently which sometimes leads to the same result. I just thought there could be a way you guys did this that made it easier to deal with. Thanks again.
Farking amazing!!! My only gripe is the animated gif presentation you`re using so far. If the viewer wants to stop and look at a specific view they have to wait for the frames to loop which, while it isn't the end of the world is just a 'smidge' annoying.
beautiful progress...
The only thing I feel pulls it back a bit are the heels from the side view. They look a bit 'lumpy and straight' to me... Some curve could be nice. It could make the feet more feminine and sexier... [here's a rude gif:poly121: of what I had in mind for your consideration ] Love the hair
Jackablade: good point, thanks man. I'll try and get more form out of the tail :thumbup:
Intervain: awesome, thanks a ton for the crits! I love your work . I was trying to really simplify that whole area to keep it 'cute n girly' rather than 'sexy n womanly', but I think you're right that it's just too straight and boring right now
whw, Hang10, Scythe, Fred2303, Drav, A-Train, Joseph Silverman, RiotForQuiet, bugo, konstruct: Thanks a ton you guys! Really made my day
Gannon: it's nothing fancy, but I did a little gif to show what i meant about the trim. At the end of it, I sculpted with backface automasking on and separated out polygroups for specific work
konstruct: oops, i didn't post any stills of those, i was gonna make some crack about the spins making me dizzy, but then scythe went and stole my pun
edit: i also did another timelapse of hair, though im not sure if it's anything new. I pretty much did it how i do it for speedies, but the export messed up on the last section where i did the back of the head and pigtails anyway feel free to take a look if you're interested
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0L44XpvPoY"]GuiltyGear - Dizzy - 3d Hair sculpting - YouTube[/ame]
sorry for everyone whose bandwidth im destroying in this thread :poly136:
Replies
Scythe, MeintevdS, duncan: thanks a bunch dudes! You're right about the head looking too small, I shrunk the body after haz did a sculptover and I think it looks better but let me know if it still doesn't feel right!
afisher, Duncan, Saman: thanks guys, totally right! I adjusted some of that stuff, thanks. Hopefully it looks better now? As far as the knees yeah since she's got stockings and all I'll smooth it out.
Nyx: that's probably true, man. But in this case I know I'm going to cut off the arms so i can rotate them sorta however i want.
Stage 2: Round 3: 'It's dangerous to go alone! Take this sculpt-over' - (wrapping up main body/head sculpt issues)
noteworthy changes: Haz suggested a ton of form tweakage to make stuff better as you can see above, but also to smooth out a lot of my anatomical detail to keep it more subtle and put the face into a more neutral position that fits with the concept and style better.
Stage 3: Round 1: 'Suitin' up!' - (starting costume-sculpting)
I'm super scared of approaching the hair because I've always done really chunky stylized hair- i think i'll still lean pretty stylized but a little less chunky than usual, but then I also am unsure how much unique stuff vs. duplicate strands I'll use. I'll either get on that or detailing the clothes next now that all this basemesh stuff is sorta outta the way
Definitely lemme know if you don't dig something
Dat tail °;;;°
Hang10, yeah you're right, i decided it'd be easier to just sculpt on something planar rather than having topology define the split flaps of the boot, [EDIT:] BUT i decided everyone was right and I shoulda just done it 2-sided to begin with, not sure what I was afraid of cuz it worked fine
hi five.
Your tweaks to the hand are super duper.
... another small nitpick - the index finger is smaller than the middle finger...
Don't pose your hands like that.
Pose your forearms at 50 percent rotation. It will keep your lowpoly from collapsing when you rotate them.
Same with the wrist. Straighten them out.
Ideally all joints should be modeled at 50 percent, but for artistic reasons we don't do that. Half your forearms and wrists and your rigger will thank you for it.
Gah, also the toes.
Keep the line between your hips / knees / and toes coplaner.
Intervain: thanks dude, I'll try and address the knee/tibia area, I might be exaggerating the curves way too far. As for the fingers, you're right haha, it looks like the index finger is longer because of the pose, but i think it's around the right size, i'll do a spin on my next update and would appreciate any pointouts!
hey jesse, i appreciate the insight, man!
It's really nice to hear your concerns with all your experience on proper rig-ready models.
I totally agree if this were in a production environment i'd try and make everything as perfectly rigger-friendly as possible. I still always try to stick to what's possible in production, but I've sorta been trying to keep a tiny little wall between my approach on personal vs. production work as I occasionally found I was compromising my personal vision for the sake of a really rigid production workflow even on pieces that weren't built for that environment. This is a personal struggle in that I began 3d focusing on the technical side first, and I feel it's been constricting my pursuit of art and has made me more valuable to a company as a technician than an artist before. So I've been actively trying to balance that against a more freely artistic approach.
In the case of the forearm I know the underlying arm is gonna be deleted so i can just rotate the whole thing under the sleeve, but for the rest there's no excuse other than 'I thought it looked better as a character'. I definitely agree that this makes rigging/animation more troublesome
sorry this post is so long. Since I've been journaling all my major decisions I figured i'd fumbled with explaining why i did the posture this way :poly136:
The problem is that when I see a t-pose like this I immediately assume you do not know what you are doing. I can't help but think that others will think the same and in the end that can only hurt you.
Luckily I do know your art and I know you know what you're doing, but this t-pose just puzzles me.
I personally don't like rigid t-poses either and that's why I do mine in a relaxed, natural pose.
being a learning thread and all, what's so bad about the t-pose chosen?
It depends on what's supposed to be being learned.
To me personally, the t-pose has everything to do with a learning exercise.
I understand, and in my initial post I stated why that pose was technically not correct or desired when it comes to rigging. I showed the pose to some of my rigging friends and they all pretty much said they would send it back to be fixed.
This is a learning thread, and I'm giving him my advice and suggestions based on my experience.
Even if this model will not be posed by an animator, but only in Zbrush, the theories still hold up. You model joints in a 50 percent rotation so they don't lose their shape when you bend them. This all leads to being a more efficient artist.
I've seen pretty weird bindposes used in different productions before, but that doesn't mean it's the most rig-friendly way to do it. In this case, although some people will probably think I don't know what I'm doing, a big personal goal with this course is to try and depart from my usual labcoat-approach to personal art. Like skankerzero said, I can't recommend anyone else to try this, but I think it's been one of my biggest personal hangups to improving as an artist
Stage3:Round2: 'Let's Rock!' - (finally doing the fun part of sculpting)
I was sure to polypaint everything roughly as i went along to be sure i had a clear vision in mind as i was sculpting, then I'd toggle the colors on/off of that subtool so i could be sure the form read right without being distracted by colors. Later, when Haz asked to see a fully grey shot of the model I realized I hadn't looked at it in grey yet! After discussing it I know it's important to step back and do that every once in a while. Without colors there's no way to hide bad forms.
The cloth was surprisingly simplistic in that there weren't a ton of fine details, mostly trim. Haz and nizza convinced me to abandon my fear of 2-sided thin geometry, and I cleaned up my bases in Max. Since I knew lotsa the pieces had trim I got a base for that selection by using the shell modifier with edge mapping set to strip or something (then use auto group by uvs to get a selection of that whole inside edge)
Artistically, the big things i want to be sure of is to make sure each material reads distinctly as its own cloth.
Hair was something I was really excited for because it's a pretty defining characteristic for Dizzy. I was experimenting with using more subtools for hair rather than lumping it into really few like i do in speedies, so it's made up of a few: The loopy was from a torus, 2 spheres for bangs, 1 for each side strip, and 1 for the main back mass of the head. This was sorta a pain to deal with and edit, it's easy to bust out pretty quick though, so I'd probably smash it down to just a few subtools before going and refining it next time. Then for the pigtails I did a main mass that I'll bake and then tendrily bits popping off of it that I'll probably just add in the low poly for more dynamism and volume.
As far as surface treatment I was much looser in areas I'm planning on painting more on to avoid having too much detail influencing the painting later. We'll see how well that works out haha
If I might make one crit, the tail kinda feels like it needs a little detailing. I assume the yellow ring will be a bow once you get to it, but the form itself could perhaps use a little form. Looking through a few of the reference images, it looks like a few of the designs have a subtle spine ridge that runs down the top of the tail. I think adding something like that and perhaps playing a little with the sectional shape might make it look nicer.
Regardless, you've got a great piece here. The rotations are kind of mesmerising.
I do like the way the hair turned out too.
Hahaha same here! thats really beautiful man such a beautiful face and everything is top clean! awesome work congratulation!
Would you mind going more into detail or showing a specific example of this process
I was also going to ask for a little more info on what you exactly did about the 2 sided thin geometry because I also always struggle when working on clothing, some parts of it are sticking on the other side after I am done sculpting, so if you have time will be great to hear how you went about that.
That probably just solved a lot of issues I've had
The only thing I feel pulls it back a bit are the heels from the side view. They look a bit 'lumpy and straight' to me... Some curve could be nice. It could make the feet more feminine and sexier... [here's a rude gif:poly121: of what I had in mind for your consideration
Jackablade: good point, thanks man. I'll try and get more form out of the tail :thumbup:
Intervain: awesome, thanks a ton for the crits! I love your work
whw, Hang10, Scythe, Fred2303, Drav, A-Train, Joseph Silverman, RiotForQuiet, bugo, konstruct: Thanks a ton you guys! Really made my day
Gannon: it's nothing fancy, but I did a little gif to show what i meant about the trim. At the end of it, I sculpted with backface automasking on and separated out polygroups for specific work
konstruct: oops, i didn't post any stills of those, i was gonna make some crack about the spins making me dizzy, but then scythe went and stole my pun
edit: i also did another timelapse of hair, though im not sure if it's anything new. I pretty much did it how i do it for speedies, but the export messed up on the last section where i did the back of the head and pigtails
[ame="
sorry for everyone whose bandwidth im destroying in this thread :poly136: