So how is this any different then "My friends and I are getting together and creating a project and by the way we'll document the whole thing and post it on the forums".
I was part of the 'Unofficial' Polycount Collaboration Project at the beginning and despite our eagerness it fell apart, I did my best to keep it alive, and a lot of people that worked on it left. Maybe this way is better but I don't see the reason to making a thread about it.
I'm a character artist. Would love to work on a polycount group project with attainable goals that would eventually be "complete". A successful small project could pave the way for a larger one?
I'd be happy to work with other people who are trying to get better as long as there was someone with some experience who could divvy out work and at least attempt to assign deadlines.
Having some say in what that project was would be a plus, although I know what can happen if too many people have too many ideas and too much shared control.
I like the idea. There can't ever be said bad things about pro's sharing their knowledge. But, I like the challenges aswell. The mistakes and challenges that amateurs artists face are more down to my level. I tend to learn more from those threads then the pro ones since that feels like black magic most of the time.
The most ideal thing for me would combining the two. Kick off a challenge where everyone could participate. Give it some art direction rules etc and when the challenge is done, pick the best art from every catagory (Character, Env, Props etc.) and put a pro team together that way and take it to the next level.
This way the community can participate plus we get to see a pro team do their black magic :poly121:
I don't think this was EVER meant to be a "let's all get together and collaborate on the project". He even stated that.
Yeah I suppose so.
In any case I'd still be grateful that this project works as planned.
I hope we at least get some in-depth tutorials and not just "we put this and this together and came out with this" :poly124:
As a student i don't see how i would benefit from this any more than i would from watching these professionals working on their own projects which happens daily at the moment.
Just run another contest like brawl and ask people if they would release their files at the end. I'm sure i speak for every single student and even many professionals out there when i say the amount to learn from JordanW's brawl map is just insane. Plus having people competing is likely going to produce better quality art anyway, or at least in a shorter time scale?
guysguysguys i LITERALLY cannot make art without a competition or somebody holding my hand throughout the entire thing, so fuck this project that could really benefit somebody else. boo hoo hoo
Catering to students is what gameartisans does. There's not much benefit for any pro to want to do it.
Professionals want to work with other Professionals because it makes them better. There's absolutely no reason or incentive to spend their time training students or amateurs. In fact, student's get a LOT less out of it. Seeing how professionals work in a professional setting is likely a MUCH BETTER learning tool than seeing how professionals train students.
I eventually stopped reading through this because the negative replies were bewildering me.
Adam is basically proposing the grandest of all tutorials/learning experiences for free and people are complaining? I don't think this was EVER meant to be a "let's all get together and collaborate on the project". He even stated that.
I'm amazed that someone is suggesting such a potentially valuable learning experience, that could be from some of the best artists on this forum, and people are honestly upset over it or consider it a bad idea.
If someone like say Neox (just picked randomly) asked me if I wanted to see detailed documentation of some of his work, and give me the work to actually further look at and break down myself I'd never be like "nah man, bad idea".
That's likely what'll happen. We have some exciting stuff coming up with Polycount in the next few weeks so it won't be for awhile until anything happens from this conversation.
The thing that seemed off to me about this is what ever happened to a talented person writing a tutorial?
I remember the old Varga tutorial from that one Domwar. I must have went through that thing a hundred times over the course of a year. So much to learn from just looking at a guy who documented his workflow. In fact, that was always the best thing about Domwar. You see an awesome entry, and you can do more than just stare at it, you can click the thread to see how it was made from beginning to end. People ask questions, the whole nine yards.
Now we have things like this project, and the one Hazardous is doing. We're talking applications, exclusive groups, some of these things are even paid now.
There isn't necessarily anything wrong with these things individually. In fact, I think Hazardous' take on it takes it to the next level. It's one thing to see how a talented person makes something. It's another to see that person critique lesser work, and seeing how that person thinks. But the trend overall is just unappealing. Not gonna go on an end-of-the-world rant saying the community is ruined. But simply that it's changing from what I remember and what I got into. And it's changing into something that's unappealing (to me).
As far as getting people to just post some art and talk about it, I thought the competitions did a pretty good job at that. Brawl went pretty well didn't it? I know Domwar back in the day was pretty inspiring. Isn't that basically what this project is? There's a theme (like in those competitions), you have people making art for that theme, then post it with progress and answer questions. Sounds like a good'ol competition to me. Just that this one excludes everyone who isn't in that group.
Said it better than I could have man. The vibe on this site has been shifting from, "Hey lets all get better together, video game art f*ck yeah!.. is that a penis?", to more of a who's who, and we should feel lucky to get a view of public portfolio building which is getting more exposure by using the community. This thread gave me blue balls.
Said it better than I could have man. The vibe on this site has been shifting from, "Hey lets all get better together, video game art f*ck yeah!.. is that a penis?", to more of a who's who
Totally agree. Ego is a big problem in the creative field. It's not that bad on PC, to be honest, the really talented dudes on here are really sound and if anything help the less experienced a lot; its more of a case of people being egotistical on their behalf, say if you have a crit or something. It's not as bad as CGTalk has it I guess. We aren't firemen, surgeons, (good) cops, people that actually make a difference in this world, so I don't know how ego has become such a large part of this industry... where's the justification for it? We just push polies or paint pixels for a living. What we do for a career is essentially a selfish one (not saying that's a bad thing). We do it because we want to.
But yeah enough negativity. Did it manage to bypass everybody that our overlord is having his first born next month? Or is that something everybody else already knew. :poly142:
Also hope something bootiful comes out of this idea. And it better feature kittens.
I don't know i don't see how this is going to change anything, if someone feels like he wants to do a tutorial then he will do it anyways, its just a shitload of work, which is what most people usually forget. it sounds like a nice idea and no one is forced to join in, a super huge project for everyone will never work out, i mean its hard to even get a hand full of people to work on something in their freetime which takes wekks or months till it is finished, not everyone is a student and has plenty of time at hand. But maybe working in a small team boosts some of the dudes working all day and if those guys give out their informations and tutorials, i don't see why this should be a big deal, see it as a collaborative tutorial with questions and answers afterwards, in a lot of cases you will not have the chance to ask you questions to the maker when reading his/her tutorial.
Said it better than I could have man. The vibe on this site has been shifting from, "Hey lets all get better together, video game art f*ck yeah!.. is that a penis?", to more of a who's who, and we should feel lucky to get a view of public portfolio building which is getting more exposure by using the community. This thread gave me blue balls.
Mmm, I think you're polarizing the feeling of the 'whos's who' quite a bit from the notes this thread has hit. I disagree and feel that PC is still a 'fuck ya videogame art.. is that a penis?' place. But I'm up on my ivory tower with rose coloured glasses so that could just be me. :poly124:
Best to just get on and organize it at this point IMO. It's a good idea (looking at the big picture) so now let's see some planning and little picture stuff :P
Mmm, I think you're polarizing the feeling of the 'whos's who' quite a bit from the notes this thread has hit. I disagree and feel that PC is still a 'fuck ya videogame art.. is that a penis?' place. But I'm up on my ivory tower with rose coloured glasses so that could just be me. :poly124:
No, you're right, it is still that. In my first post I wasn't saying that those days are long-gone or anything. After all, I'm still here. If I saw this community go down, then it's quite simple, I'll just stop coming here. It's just a forum...
But what I was trying to say is that the trend is towards that. We're not there yet. But I keep seeing things like applications, hand-picking only certain people, paid tutorials, etc. Where in the "good ol' days" it was people writing massive tutorials that are (by definition) open for everyone, people answering questions publicly, releasing their competition-winning assets to the public, things like that.
This project for example is essentially the same thing as a competition. Only it's got a layer of applications, hand-picking "candidates", and limited places available on top of it.
...yet there's potential for literally every member of Polycount to learn something from it happening. I get your point, I just don't think its as devious an ideas as some have interpreted it.
As others have stated, I should have just gone for it. But I like discussing things with the community and I *always* know there will be polarizing differences of opinions with stuff like this. It's fun (and useful) to check in once in a while and see how you guys feel with certain ideas. I have thick skin - WE, the team, have thick skin - so when we propose things you guys might not like our feelings are never hurt. I think that's why I don't mind discussing the odd idea for the site here and there with the entire community.
This thread won't be forgotten when it comes time for our polycount project. I know for sure it will happen. What it entails - the specifics of it - I am unsure. This thread has certainly pointed us in a good direction. It'll likely be something more based on 'art for fun' than 'art for learning' where anyone can participate.
First off I hope you guys don't see our posts as personal attacks thick skinned or not, there's nothing wrong with starting a project and as the head of the site Adam and I can see why you'd want turn it into a community "thing". I'm sure the work you guys have planned will be mind blowing to see if the team of the best of the best get together and pound out a scene.
The main concern is that this could be a trend that alienates parts of this community. There was never a concern before that you were good enough to partake in the group activities of polycount, just that everyone was a polycounter and you were as welcome to post your contributions and critiques as the next guy regardless of skill level, and it's a little worrisome that this sort of blind comradre could be waning.
A lot of the fun of this site has been the blend of proffesionals and passionate hobbiests working in the same space. You end up with a lot of comical situations and laughably bad art and critique, but that's all been part of the experience of coming to PC. It also helps to appreciate the truly awe inspiring work if there are many submissions of various skill levels.
I think your project is a great idea, but there's gotta be a way you could include the rest of the community, or throw them a bone with another side project to be done on the side that doesn't interfere with the awesomeness you guys have planned.
The vibe on this site has been shifting from, "Hey lets all get better together, video game art f*ck yeah!.. is that a penis?", to more of a who's who, and we should feel lucky to get a view of public portfolio building which is getting more exposure by using the community. This thread gave me blue balls.
Everyone has their own idea of what polycount was, is, and what they want it to be. Honestly if people want more people sharing their techniques they just need to make awesome art themselves and if they feel like it, share it. I would never knock anyone for not sharing their technique or tips, a lot of people just don't have the time or don't think people would gain that much information for the effort involved.
After stepping away for a while and thinking about this for a bit I think it's a great idea. I mean christ if half of the guys on that original idea of names Adam tossed out did something together and documented all of it I know for a fact I would learn a ton.
I have years of experience but I still consider myself way behind guys like JordanW, Kevin, and Tor. Those guys are always a huge inspiration for me to push my skills and learn new things so if I got a peak inside more of what they know and how I can go about bringing that into my own work then FUCK YES PLEASE!!!
I have saved every one of Kevins threads and copied all of his text into a huge ass word doc that I go back to all the time. His insight to his workflow and pipelines he does and even his struggles is eye opening and so helpful that I couldn't thank him enough or the community.
I know as an artist I have grown more from learning on polycount and my own failed experiments than anything else and a lot of it comes from guys like this.
I think a lot of people have issue with is the names that were brought up. As artists I think we all like to think we are the best and all have egos that we like to boost up. I mean isn't that why we are always pimping our art and want that praise as well as the crits?
oXYnary - I think I might have come across as a bit of a jackass.
Basically, I LOVE helping people on individual artists. I really do. I teach part time, I've helped quite a few people over the past few years land their first jobs in the industry, and I find a lot of joy in enabling other passionate artists get to where they want in their careers.
But sometimes I get the feeling there's a LOT of guys who don't really take any initiative at all. There's a LOT of people I've encountered in this industry who just simply pay the lip-service of SAYING they want to be artists, but never put any effort into it, and completely rely on others for everything.
(Not saying all aspiring artists are like that, but a LOT are). I guess what I'm suggesting is that everyone is lumped everyone into that latter category which isn't necessarily fair.
Regardless it wasn't fair for me to assume everyone learns the same way. I definitely don't want to be the guy that hijacks a potentially golden learning opportunity for the people that really need something like this.
I hate to be the one who says it but its easy for people to say this is a good idea. If someone asked me if I'd like to see people work and share their workflow I'd say yes. Though I don't see this working for a couple reasons.
Has any community project anywhere ever been finished?
No one has time, really. Yeah we see people post art here all the time but it's a lot to get someone involved in a competition solo. I cant imagine getting multiple people with different styles working together.
It's also kinda weird to have a portfolio review process, it just makes the community seem douchy. If people want to work on a project together they'll do it, we dont need some board deciding who can work on a community project
I really don't want to sound negative, and to be honest it's kind of weird to call people out in a thread and say "Hey wouldn't it be totally awesome if X and Y Did this...." because it only leads to disappointment. It's awesome people want to see more work from me and others, heck I'd like to have more time to make more personal projects.
I hate to be the one who says it but its easy for people to say this is a good idea. If someone asked me if I'd like to see people work and share their workflow I'd say yes. Though I don't see this working for a couple reasons.
Has any community project anywhere ever been finished?
No one has time, really. Yeah we see people post art here all the time but it's a lot to get someone involved in a competition solo. I cant imagine getting multiple people with different styles working together.
It's also kinda weird to have a portfolio review process, it just makes the community seem douchy. If people want to work on a project together they'll do it, we dont need some board deciding who can work on a community project
I really don't want to sound negative, and to be honest it's kind of weird to call people out in a thread and say "Hey wouldn't it be totally awesome if X and Y Did this...." because it only leads to disappointment. It's awesome people want to see more work from me and others, heck I'd like to have more time to make more personal projects.
I think what people are worried about is not that 'pros' will go clique up and do their own thing, but rather that the newbies won't take as much from the project watching (even if it's documented) from the sidelines.
There's a dissonance here between the groups because the old hands know that learning independently is best - but have probably forgotten what it's like to be an amateur. meanwhile and the newbies don't realise that it's going to be a pain for pro's to guide them through the project, and are (realistically) worried about being shut out of development.
Here's why: Such a project would have to be extremely well documented to be effective as a learning tool. People will be frustrated they can't contribute, or that their ideas are overlooked in favour of the more experienced members. Basically I think this project will, generally speaking, but not in all cases, be more useful the higher skill level the observer.
Personal opinion: I think it's a great idea. I think it should happen. I think it's over thought out. I think this should never have been proposed as a 'community project'. because people will feel left out of the loop at first, and won't be able to contribute as much as you or they like.
TLDR: as a community project this will slowly bomb. As a transparent team project in Pimping and Previews, this would be amazing and benefit everyone.
I think the only thing that would make it seem "douchy" is if you assumed people would get butt hurt for not getting "picked", or that if you assumed the people who did get picked would for some reason act like any different as a result. I'd like to think the community is more mature than that.
I really don't see what the fuss is about, I read the OP and I read it as "Hey if we got some capable dudes/dudettes together and documented everything we did and released it to the community as a free resource, would you guys be all about that?"
And for some reason people started assuming that it was about elitism, it didn't read like that at all to me. Another thing that sort of bothers me is suggesting Adam should've just organized it anyway without posting a thread about it (which might've increased the chances of it happening, sure), but THEN we would've had folks complaining about a lack of transparency/communication.
Honestly, I think threads like this are a good example of why people don't always document things, or aren't as open about their ideas or process. It seems like as soon as you say something that's on your mind, the chances of it happening (or your drive to continue doing it) decrease very dramatically.
Honestly, I think threads like this are a good example of why people don't always document things, or aren't as open about their ideas or process. It seems like as soon as you say something that's on your mind, the chances of it happening (or your drive to continue doing it) decrease very dramatically.
Bummer.
This has nothing to do with people not documenting things, no ones stopping you, or saying anything negative about the act of documenting your workflow.
I think the only thing that would make it seem "douchy" is if you assumed people would get butt hurt for not getting "picked", or that if you assumed the people who did get picked would for some reason act like any different as a result. I'd like to think the community is more mature than that.
hahaha I can't imagine anyone would survive the game industry if they couldn't handle not getting picked
Adam is trying to put a project together, with various other community members who many considder to be the "elite" of the forum.
the goal here being, to demonstrate what a studio pipeline might be like? as in: each member of the team is responsible for a different part of the project, and unlike the goings on in a studio, this will be open for all the members to both see and learn from?
i honestly don't see how anyone can think this is a bad thing. anyone who's not already in a studio stands to learn a great deal from this, both in what they can expect to do if/when they get their jobs, and also in terms of their own personal workflows.
that a heartstopping piece of artwork will come out of it is an absolute given, but if they're as open about it, and hopefully document the process... then this will be something that makes polycount stand out even more as the best learning forum out there.
I'm coming way late to this convo, but I see this as a great opportunity. It may be really difficult to organize and what not but it would be better to get something going than to not at all.
I know for my self that I come to polycount for the community, see awesome art, and build my own skills from watching and learning from other people.
What if the next big polycount challenge could be some sort of Final Product / Process documentation slash tutorial. I know it will be subjective but when is art ever not.
The idea would be to create and incredible piece while at the same time creating an in depth look into your process. No matter what you are pro or 3 day old noob competing in something like this it will force you to self reflect on your own process. It would also force really iron out your own kinks, while at the same time giving you a chance to look at and dissect 50 other artist and their pipelines as well.
I think something like this would serve people from different disciplines better (character artist, environmnet ect.) And on top of that it would create hundreds of tutorials or process tutorials instead of just one.
With that said, I know any one can create a tutorial or what ever you want to call it, but think about the number of quality, documented projects we would get if the process documentation was as important as the final product.
Hope that makes sense. Sorry for jumping in so late.
I liked polycount better when it was more about honest feedback and cool small comps with crazily talented down-to-earth artists than the mass ass-kissing and self promotion pit that it's slowly turning to these days.
I liked polycount better when it was more about honest feedback and cool small comps with crazily talented down-to-earth artists than the mass ass-kissing and self promotion pit that it's slowly turning to these days.
So a few professionals getting together to organize an art project that will also be professionally documented is ass kissing self promotion? Settle down rascal. It just means that the project will more likely be finished and that there will be a lot of great documentation for the community to read through. Look at the Polycount Collaboration Project for example. That involved anyone who was interested and it pretty much died within a few weeks. There's still honest feedback and small competitions organized by community members all over Pimping and Previews too.
I liked polycount better when it was more about honest feedback and cool small comps with crazily talented down-to-earth artists than the mass ass-kissing and self promotion pit that it's slowly turning to these days.
If you're willing to take the time to elaborate on your feelings about Polycount I'd be willing to read it, Minos.
I'd like to know why you think it's turning in to an "ass-kissing and self promoting pit". Because, and I read a lot of threads here, I not only disagree with that sentiment but think there is more honest feedback and 'down-to-earth' artists here. Polcyount's population is growing, and therefor both sides of the feedback spectrum ("bad ass!" vs great feedback) are going to increase.
As for the comps, I hear ya. Just keep an ear to the ground and you'll see we have some fun things planned.
Also - I forget who (I think it was Jordan but I'm not completely certain) said that portfolio reviews would be douchey. And they totally would be. That is my fault for not properly articulating what I was thinking. It was essentially an additional train of thought to the notion of collaborating on this idea with obviously talented artists from Polycount. So 'reviewing' their portfolio was more or less saying that those individuals helping with the collab would need to not only show they contribute to PC but have a fantastic portfolio to boot that others would want to learn from.
Sitting here and actually reviewing portfolios with other people to join the cool club was never on my mind nor intended when I wrote that. Completely my fault for not thinking that through further before I posted it.
I just thought I'd clear that up
----
Anyway, I think I (we... the team...) have a clear idea about what sort of Polycount collaborations would and would not work with you guys. There's certainly something out there that most of you would find enjoyable, enlightening or educational.
As I said in my reply to Minos above this one: keep your ears to the ground because there should be some rumbling in the next while about something you guys are sure to love.
If you're willing to take the time to elaborate on your feelings about Polycount I'd be willing to read it, Minos.
I'd like to know why you think it's turning in to an "ass-kissing and self promoting pit". Because, and I read a lot of threads here, I not only disagree with that sentiment but think there is more honest feedback and 'down-to-earth' artists here. Polcyount's population is growing, and therefor both sides of the feedback spectrum ("bad ass!" vs great feedback) are going to increase.
As for the comps, I hear ya. Just keep an ear to the ground and you'll see we have some fun things planned.
Sure. It's just that the original post reads as a self-promotion attempt. I don't have anything against the idea and I believe it will indeed be very valuable for the community if it actually happens, but what's the point in letting everyone know that the guy who runs the community is planning to start a personal project with the big shots that 99,9% of the forum obviously won't be able to participate (directly)?
Again, nothing against the idea (which is pretty cool if you ask me) or against you or anyone else, I just think this thread is pointless and will lead to more ass-kissing.
I apologize from being brutally honest but that's just how I felt when reading the OP.
I never considered someone might read it as an attempt for me to do 'Adam Bromell presents...' and just thought people would see it as a 'Some of Polycount's best have come together to...'. Hell, I only ever thought I'd help manage/organize/motivate it while the great artists do the great art. The only bit of selfishness I wanted out of it is that I'd get to see some badass art a few minutes or a day before it was posted, if ever.
I also never considered it a "personal project". Personal in that yes I help run Polycount and it would be a great thing for Polycount to have something like this, but it was never something I would personally gain from. That's dumb. Don't be dumb.
I apologize from being brutally honest but...
Remove this thought from your brain whenever you're posting here - you should know that by now :thumbup:
but what's the point in letting everyone know that the guy who runs the community is planning to start a personal project with the big shots that 99,9% of the forum obviously won't be able to participate (directly)?
Odd interpretation. But even it that was blatantly the intent, I'd still be excited.
I never considered someone might read it as an attempt for me to do 'Adam Bromell presents...' and just thought people would see it as a 'Some of Polycount's best have come together to...'. Hell, I only ever thought I'd help manage/organize/motivate it while the great artists do the great art. The only bit of selfishness I wanted out of it is that I'd get to see some badass art a few minutes or a day before it was posted, if ever.
I also never considered it a "personal project". Personal in that yes I help run Polycount and it would be a great thing for Polycount to have something like this, but it was never something I would personally gain from. That's dumb. Don't be dumb.
Remove this thought from your brain whenever you're posting here - you should know that by now :thumbup:
What matters is the art and not the artist. That's why i said that this thread will only lead to ass kissing and to "who's who" as crazyfingers has put it, since it doesn't contain any art and not even specific details about the project. There's no need to ask if there's interest in this either as the answer is pretty obvious.
I do apologize for coming off a bit harsh on my first post though. Anyways, points taken and no hard feelings at all.
For those that think community projects don't work, check the thread entitled FoodForTheEye
What is the intention for this project? Is it to be playable?
Replies
I was part of the 'Unofficial' Polycount Collaboration Project at the beginning and despite our eagerness it fell apart, I did my best to keep it alive, and a lot of people that worked on it left. Maybe this way is better but I don't see the reason to making a thread about it.
I'd be happy to work with other people who are trying to get better as long as there was someone with some experience who could divvy out work and at least attempt to assign deadlines.
Having some say in what that project was would be a plus, although I know what can happen if too many people have too many ideas and too much shared control.
The most ideal thing for me would combining the two. Kick off a challenge where everyone could participate. Give it some art direction rules etc and when the challenge is done, pick the best art from every catagory (Character, Env, Props etc.) and put a pro team together that way and take it to the next level.
This way the community can participate plus we get to see a pro team do their black magic :poly121:
Yeah I suppose so.
In any case I'd still be grateful that this project works as planned.
I hope we at least get some in-depth tutorials and not just "we put this and this together and came out with this" :poly124:
*bawww*
back to lurking
Just run another contest like brawl and ask people if they would release their files at the end. I'm sure i speak for every single student and even many professionals out there when i say the amount to learn from JordanW's brawl map is just insane. Plus having people competing is likely going to produce better quality art anyway, or at least in a shorter time scale?
Wow.
this.
Thanks everyone for chiming in.
Said it better than I could have man. The vibe on this site has been shifting from, "Hey lets all get better together, video game art f*ck yeah!.. is that a penis?", to more of a who's who, and we should feel lucky to get a view of public portfolio building which is getting more exposure by using the community. This thread gave me blue balls.
Totally agree. Ego is a big problem in the creative field. It's not that bad on PC, to be honest, the really talented dudes on here are really sound and if anything help the less experienced a lot; its more of a case of people being egotistical on their behalf, say if you have a crit or something. It's not as bad as CGTalk has it I guess. We aren't firemen, surgeons, (good) cops, people that actually make a difference in this world, so I don't know how ego has become such a large part of this industry... where's the justification for it? We just push polies or paint pixels for a living. What we do for a career is essentially a selfish one (not saying that's a bad thing). We do it because we want to.
But yeah enough negativity. Did it manage to bypass everybody that our overlord is having his first born next month? Or is that something everybody else already knew. :poly142:
Also hope something bootiful comes out of this idea. And it better feature kittens.
Now everything has Clusterfuck written all over it, for reasons I cannot seem to figure out.
Mmm, I think you're polarizing the feeling of the 'whos's who' quite a bit from the notes this thread has hit. I disagree and feel that PC is still a 'fuck ya videogame art.. is that a penis?' place. But I'm up on my ivory tower with rose coloured glasses so that could just be me. :poly124:
Best to just get on and organize it at this point IMO. It's a good idea (looking at the big picture) so now let's see some planning and little picture stuff :P
No, you're right, it is still that. In my first post I wasn't saying that those days are long-gone or anything. After all, I'm still here. If I saw this community go down, then it's quite simple, I'll just stop coming here. It's just a forum...
But what I was trying to say is that the trend is towards that. We're not there yet. But I keep seeing things like applications, hand-picking only certain people, paid tutorials, etc. Where in the "good ol' days" it was people writing massive tutorials that are (by definition) open for everyone, people answering questions publicly, releasing their competition-winning assets to the public, things like that.
This project for example is essentially the same thing as a competition. Only it's got a layer of applications, hand-picking "candidates", and limited places available on top of it.
As others have stated, I should have just gone for it. But I like discussing things with the community and I *always* know there will be polarizing differences of opinions with stuff like this. It's fun (and useful) to check in once in a while and see how you guys feel with certain ideas. I have thick skin - WE, the team, have thick skin - so when we propose things you guys might not like our feelings are never hurt. I think that's why I don't mind discussing the odd idea for the site here and there with the entire community.
This thread won't be forgotten when it comes time for our polycount project. I know for sure it will happen. What it entails - the specifics of it - I am unsure. This thread has certainly pointed us in a good direction. It'll likely be something more based on 'art for fun' than 'art for learning' where anyone can participate.
The main concern is that this could be a trend that alienates parts of this community. There was never a concern before that you were good enough to partake in the group activities of polycount, just that everyone was a polycounter and you were as welcome to post your contributions and critiques as the next guy regardless of skill level, and it's a little worrisome that this sort of blind comradre could be waning.
A lot of the fun of this site has been the blend of proffesionals and passionate hobbiests working in the same space. You end up with a lot of comical situations and laughably bad art and critique, but that's all been part of the experience of coming to PC. It also helps to appreciate the truly awe inspiring work if there are many submissions of various skill levels.
I think your project is a great idea, but there's gotta be a way you could include the rest of the community, or throw them a bone with another side project to be done on the side that doesn't interfere with the awesomeness you guys have planned.
Everyone has their own idea of what polycount was, is, and what they want it to be. Honestly if people want more people sharing their techniques they just need to make awesome art themselves and if they feel like it, share it. I would never knock anyone for not sharing their technique or tips, a lot of people just don't have the time or don't think people would gain that much information for the effort involved.
I have years of experience but I still consider myself way behind guys like JordanW, Kevin, and Tor. Those guys are always a huge inspiration for me to push my skills and learn new things so if I got a peak inside more of what they know and how I can go about bringing that into my own work then FUCK YES PLEASE!!!
I have saved every one of Kevins threads and copied all of his text into a huge ass word doc that I go back to all the time. His insight to his workflow and pipelines he does and even his struggles is eye opening and so helpful that I couldn't thank him enough or the community.
I know as an artist I have grown more from learning on polycount and my own failed experiments than anything else and a lot of it comes from guys like this.
I think a lot of people have issue with is the names that were brought up. As artists I think we all like to think we are the best and all have egos that we like to boost up. I mean isn't that why we are always pimping our art and want that praise as well as the crits?
Anyways just my 2 and a half cents....
Basically, I LOVE helping people on individual artists. I really do. I teach part time, I've helped quite a few people over the past few years land their first jobs in the industry, and I find a lot of joy in enabling other passionate artists get to where they want in their careers.
But sometimes I get the feeling there's a LOT of guys who don't really take any initiative at all. There's a LOT of people I've encountered in this industry who just simply pay the lip-service of SAYING they want to be artists, but never put any effort into it, and completely rely on others for everything.
(Not saying all aspiring artists are like that, but a LOT are). I guess what I'm suggesting is that everyone is lumped everyone into that latter category which isn't necessarily fair.
Regardless it wasn't fair for me to assume everyone learns the same way. I definitely don't want to be the guy that hijacks a potentially golden learning opportunity for the people that really need something like this.
Has any community project anywhere ever been finished?
No one has time, really. Yeah we see people post art here all the time but it's a lot to get someone involved in a competition solo. I cant imagine getting multiple people with different styles working together.
It's also kinda weird to have a portfolio review process, it just makes the community seem douchy. If people want to work on a project together they'll do it, we dont need some board deciding who can work on a community project
I really don't want to sound negative, and to be honest it's kind of weird to call people out in a thread and say "Hey wouldn't it be totally awesome if X and Y Did this...." because it only leads to disappointment. It's awesome people want to see more work from me and others, heck I'd like to have more time to make more personal projects.
+1
There's a dissonance here between the groups because the old hands know that learning independently is best - but have probably forgotten what it's like to be an amateur. meanwhile and the newbies don't realise that it's going to be a pain for pro's to guide them through the project, and are (realistically) worried about being shut out of development.
Here's why: Such a project would have to be extremely well documented to be effective as a learning tool. People will be frustrated they can't contribute, or that their ideas are overlooked in favour of the more experienced members. Basically I think this project will, generally speaking, but not in all cases, be more useful the higher skill level the observer.
Personal opinion: I think it's a great idea. I think it should happen. I think it's over thought out. I think this should never have been proposed as a 'community project'. because people will feel left out of the loop at first, and won't be able to contribute as much as you or they like.
TLDR: as a community project this will slowly bomb. As a transparent team project in Pimping and Previews, this would be amazing and benefit everyone.
you nailed with that one, jordan.
I really don't see what the fuss is about, I read the OP and I read it as "Hey if we got some capable dudes/dudettes together and documented everything we did and released it to the community as a free resource, would you guys be all about that?"
And for some reason people started assuming that it was about elitism, it didn't read like that at all to me. Another thing that sort of bothers me is suggesting Adam should've just organized it anyway without posting a thread about it (which might've increased the chances of it happening, sure), but THEN we would've had folks complaining about a lack of transparency/communication.
Honestly, I think threads like this are a good example of why people don't always document things, or aren't as open about their ideas or process. It seems like as soon as you say something that's on your mind, the chances of it happening (or your drive to continue doing it) decrease very dramatically.
Bummer.
This has nothing to do with people not documenting things, no ones stopping you, or saying anything negative about the act of documenting your workflow.
hahaha I can't imagine anyone would survive the game industry if they couldn't handle not getting picked
yes, please.
Adam is trying to put a project together, with various other community members who many considder to be the "elite" of the forum.
the goal here being, to demonstrate what a studio pipeline might be like? as in: each member of the team is responsible for a different part of the project, and unlike the goings on in a studio, this will be open for all the members to both see and learn from?
i honestly don't see how anyone can think this is a bad thing. anyone who's not already in a studio stands to learn a great deal from this, both in what they can expect to do if/when they get their jobs, and also in terms of their own personal workflows.
that a heartstopping piece of artwork will come out of it is an absolute given, but if they're as open about it, and hopefully document the process... then this will be something that makes polycount stand out even more as the best learning forum out there.
I know for my self that I come to polycount for the community, see awesome art, and build my own skills from watching and learning from other people.
What if the next big polycount challenge could be some sort of Final Product / Process documentation slash tutorial. I know it will be subjective but when is art ever not.
The idea would be to create and incredible piece while at the same time creating an in depth look into your process. No matter what you are pro or 3 day old noob competing in something like this it will force you to self reflect on your own process. It would also force really iron out your own kinks, while at the same time giving you a chance to look at and dissect 50 other artist and their pipelines as well.
I think something like this would serve people from different disciplines better (character artist, environmnet ect.) And on top of that it would create hundreds of tutorials or process tutorials instead of just one.
With that said, I know any one can create a tutorial or what ever you want to call it, but think about the number of quality, documented projects we would get if the process documentation was as important as the final product.
Hope that makes sense. Sorry for jumping in so late.
So a few professionals getting together to organize an art project that will also be professionally documented is ass kissing self promotion? Settle down rascal. It just means that the project will more likely be finished and that there will be a lot of great documentation for the community to read through. Look at the Polycount Collaboration Project for example. That involved anyone who was interested and it pretty much died within a few weeks. There's still honest feedback and small competitions organized by community members all over Pimping and Previews too.
If you're willing to take the time to elaborate on your feelings about Polycount I'd be willing to read it, Minos.
I'd like to know why you think it's turning in to an "ass-kissing and self promoting pit". Because, and I read a lot of threads here, I not only disagree with that sentiment but think there is more honest feedback and 'down-to-earth' artists here. Polcyount's population is growing, and therefor both sides of the feedback spectrum ("bad ass!" vs great feedback) are going to increase.
As for the comps, I hear ya. Just keep an ear to the ground and you'll see we have some fun things planned.
Sitting here and actually reviewing portfolios with other people to join the cool club was never on my mind nor intended when I wrote that. Completely my fault for not thinking that through further before I posted it.
I just thought I'd clear that up
----
Anyway, I think I (we... the team...) have a clear idea about what sort of Polycount collaborations would and would not work with you guys. There's certainly something out there that most of you would find enjoyable, enlightening or educational.
As I said in my reply to Minos above this one: keep your ears to the ground because there should be some rumbling in the next while about something you guys are sure to love.
The great wall of texts.
Hot damn.
:poly124:
Can't wait to see what this brings! :poly142:
Sure. It's just that the original post reads as a self-promotion attempt. I don't have anything against the idea and I believe it will indeed be very valuable for the community if it actually happens, but what's the point in letting everyone know that the guy who runs the community is planning to start a personal project with the big shots that 99,9% of the forum obviously won't be able to participate (directly)?
Again, nothing against the idea (which is pretty cool if you ask me) or against you or anyone else, I just think this thread is pointless and will lead to more ass-kissing.
I apologize from being brutally honest but that's just how I felt when reading the OP.
I never considered someone might read it as an attempt for me to do 'Adam Bromell presents...' and just thought people would see it as a 'Some of Polycount's best have come together to...'. Hell, I only ever thought I'd help manage/organize/motivate it while the great artists do the great art. The only bit of selfishness I wanted out of it is that I'd get to see some badass art a few minutes or a day before it was posted, if ever.
I also never considered it a "personal project". Personal in that yes I help run Polycount and it would be a great thing for Polycount to have something like this, but it was never something I would personally gain from. That's dumb. Don't be dumb.
Remove this thought from your brain whenever you're posting here - you should know that by now :thumbup:
And if that is the intent, I'M STILL EXCITED.
What matters is the art and not the artist.
I do apologize for coming off a bit harsh on my first post though. Anyways, points taken and no hard feelings at all.
What is the intention for this project? Is it to be playable?