Adam, I think this is a fantastic idea and I know I've spoken about something like this with someone here on Polycount at lengths. I seriously thought it was you. Hmm....
I'm still trying to figure out how something like this could conceivably work with artists from such different disciplines. How do character artists and environment artists work together on the same project without some framework like an actual game to build upon?
As JacqueChoi mentioned, character artists generally work much more closely with animators, while enviro guys tend to work with the actual designers and whatnot. There isn't a ton of overlap on these sorts of things unless you have some sort of large character tightly integrated into the environment itself.
Speaking of which, if you wanted to do an art collaboration with character and environment guys, something like a boss fight arena would probably be the best bet.
I would argue to keep the community Adam, you need to require one of the eight BE a student or hobbyist for each team. That yes, by god, they may not be up to the rest of the teams standards, but working with them will help them get better. Just limit what these people do to the smaller things in the project.
Otherwise its coming off as a complete whose-who of Polycounts pros. Which, just makes this a less desirable community if only the top tier can contribute to things like this. I would also argue that some of the top tier may not have the passion of the student or hobbyist. So it might be good for both sides.
-The Pro picks up the eagerness of the younger.
-The younger picks up the dicipline and new ways of creating better from the Pros.
I'm not saying letting anyone be this 8th person. Still have that portfolio review, but leave the spot in each team for those you think would help complete each one. So the student character artist who work is ok can make background characters in a crowd scene. Or the environmental artist who only has a few works and is slow works on a team where there only needs to be a few assets with people who know the tools.
Maybe I misread you Adam, but sometimes I do wonder if you have forgotten your roots.
oXY - You're suggesting something I never stated. Not only that, but to suggest I've forgotten my roots when I'm proposing an idea that I would hope an entire community of artists would learn from is pretty insulting.
From my OP: "This would be a 100% transparent experiment by professionals or highly talented artists." How you got "no students" out of this I have no idea.
As for the rest of what you've written: Anyone can contribute to any of their own projects and team up with whomever they'd like to with anything on Polycount. There is an intended design to the idea I've proposed that does not fit that ideal but shouldn't stop anyone - studenty, hobbyist, professional, etc. - from doing their own thing along these lines.
Yeah, Oxy, I think you missed something... The whole point of this seems to be for the benefit of the not-so-pros here on polycount. Posting their work as they go, and perhaps mini tutorials, and answering questions- that helps us non-pros BIG time. If Adam is forgetting his roots, well, he's doing a bad job of it.
I really really like this idea. And I'd love to see what you guys could whip up.
From my OP: "This would be a 100% transparent experiment by professionals or highly talented artists."
Let me put it this way.. Why can't one of those on your own team be say kHellstr http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94914 ?? Why can't you deem that one of the stipulations for any of these official collaborations?
Having the POV on the team itself from someone outside your Pro way of creating professionally would help as well with the write ups. It would be a better fit
Because otherwise it becomes just a glorified tutorial without actual contribution from the community other than feedback and questions. Reading and writing about how something is done are great but DOING, especially with OTHERS whom are BETTER is 100X educational.
As for the rest of what you've written: Anyone can contribute to any of their own projects and team up with whomever they'd like to with anything on Polycount.
Thats a cope out. By attempting this, your saying that all collaborations are treated equally here on Polycount. I belive either you are fooling yourself if you believe that. Which will have more sway and eyes? A group of up and comers who post a project that you "might" announce on the site. Or a group of pros only you are apart of who create a project. I can tell you which I would follow given that choice.
I'm still trying to figure out how something like this could conceivably work with artists from such different disciplines. How do character artists and environment artists work together on the same project without some framework like an actual game to build upon?
As JacqueChoi mentioned, character artists generally work much more closely with animators, while enviro guys tend to work with the actual designers and whatnot. There isn't a ton of overlap on these sorts of things unless you have some sort of large character tightly integrated into the environment itself.
Speaking of which, if you wanted to do an art collaboration with character and environment guys, something like a boss fight arena would probably be the best bet.
I don't think the lack of overlap is an issue really. Everyone would have their own things to work on and if they need to interface with each other, cool. If not, also cool. Just write about how its going and what you're tackling (and how you're tackling it) and thats fine. It's about the end product and how we individually got to it.
The end product, obviously, would have to incorporate all the disciplines involved some how.
It's an interesting idea but...
I'm concerned that this could turn into a spectator sort of thing. Where instead of people asking questions/learning/participating it turns into a thread of replies mostly consisting of 'OMGz teh awesomez!!1!'. If that could be avoided then I think this idea has a lot of merit.
I'm not sure "pros" is the best term to use for what Adam is looking for, Adam is looking for people that have a history of being able to do awesome break downs of their project, workflows, and tricks. I'd like to see content everyone can benifit from, pro to someone with no 3d experience.
Oxy I feel like you're sitting there while the entire purpose of what I am proposing goes flying over your head. Choi's reply is also spot on. Please read it.
not really even sure why ask the community if we have no say so on who works on the project. This conversation is mostly limited to those adam might choose or has chosen. As the rest just watch and don't get their hands dirty to actually learn alot hands on and knee deep.
Would you benefit from interfacing with talented artists who are all working towards 1 singular goal and documenting their process as much as possible? And when its done you get something awesome to run around in and see up close while remembering all of the technical or artistic achievements that happened to get to that end result?
Regardless of your answer to this question, thats the purpose of me asking. Its not 'hey who do you want to see collaborate?' but rather 'would you benefit from this?'. Yes? OK how. No? OK why not?
We're getting replies from both sides of the spectrum so there's definitely purpose to asking.
I'm about to head out for the evening and will be back later, but here's what I've gathered so far. Typically I would post this to the Polycount team to deliberate on, but I'll post it here since its a discussion I'm having with the community.
Most people seem to like the idea of such a project happening on Polycount.
A few people would like to participate in the project themselves, but as a way of learning a few tricks themselves rather than teach others what they know.
A few people are entirely against the idea because they feel it would alienate the community.
A number of people just want to collaborate with others on something, anything, it seems.
Because I left out any mention of the actual project itself, there's some confusion.
I'd love to watch the livestream of some of the Artists working.
+1 to this. Think it would help a tonne with the whole documentation process, for example when Racer did his livestream for the RC Buggy was just interesting hearing him talk about his approach to texturing the model. Might be not doable with audio since the person will probably be distracted but an idea. I'm all for this idea as the one thing I really enjoyed was the learning process happening in each BRAWL challenge thread. Both from a technical and artistic standpoint.
State your purpose! (holds up a gun threateningly)
Here is my interpretation
-To have a project created by professionals that the community can chime in and watch during the creation.
Here is what I am explaining to you.
-To have a project created by Polycount artists from a group of Pros AND up and coming hobbyists or students that the community can chime in and watch during the creation.
I think something will be lost in the process if it is just all pros. The first hand viewpoint that hobbyist can bring to the project creation with the write ups especially that you would have overlooked that the community here that is trying to get better can appreciate.
I go back to what I just said above
"Reading and writing about how something is done are great but DOING, especially with OTHERS whom are BETTER is 100X educational." I mean cmon, even your list is who you know you can work with. Not building new contacts with non professionals you work with outside the feedback you get.
Adam, I forget, did you partake of that Joust re-imagination back in the day? When you still were trying to break in. The one anyone could contribute to? Try to remember back to those times and what would have helped you the most.
JacqueChoi. I say bullshit. It didn't start this way, and its only attitudes like yours that have made it feel this way.
I don't think the idea is bad. I think it was a bad choice to air it in front of everyone in the way you did, Adam. If you are going to pick the dudes, then write them all an email and keep it gravy.
I will also say I find the unlikelihood of a squad of dudes finishing a project in their free time as a collective in any sane amount of time pretty staggering.
TLDR: The idea is fine. The presentation was bad. Good luck herding the kittens.
Oxy: As someone who teaches hobbyists as a second job I can say wholeheartedly that, sucka, you crazy. What you are describing is exactly what polycount already is. Watching a student learn can be pretty frustrating as a process. Only after the class is over is it apparent that they have learned.
I'm just as impatient as you stoofoo if not more. Thats why you limit it to one for these, and a person that has experience. Just not at the Pro level yet. So their anatomy might not be 100% correct or that they work ineffectively.
I would like to see someone from this range respond to my critique though versus those in the industry already. I really think many of you have forgotten what it was like.
I don't think the idea is bad. I think it was a bad choice to air it in front of everyone in the way you did, Adam. If you are going to pick the dudes, then write them all an email and keep it gravy.
I will also say I find the unlikelihood of a squad of dudes finishing a project in their free time as a collective in any sane amount of time pretty staggering.
TLDR: The idea is fine. The presentation was bad. Good luck herding the kittens.
Thats pretty much my thought on this. I came in to this thinking that if it was a resounding 'YES!' that getting people together would be the most difficult part of this, nevermind if we actually finish something. That said, I wouldn't be asking people to help openly on the forum like this. It would all be through email.
Going forward I doubt this idea would come to fruition - mainly due to scheduling and time people can commit. In the end, it may just be me and a couple of dudes busting on some art and documenting it. It wouldn't be officially released through Polycount or anything.
Oh fwiw, stoofoo is right. Should have gotten it all set up and just announced it Adam. By asking for feedback before hand on such a touchy subject your bound to get replies like mine.
The downside though announcing and doing with no interaction with the community before hand just lessons the sense of community and more of a commercial instruction site feeling. (Talked to versus talked with)
I will be frank I am not a fan of this Idea what so ever but if it does get off the ground Oxy what would keep you from following along with the said "pros"? You said people would feel disconnected in a way by not partaking in this. When you watch tutorials or cooking shows don't you generally test the theory?
Do so in this case as well, most of the time when a dvd or a tutorial is released about 20% of it is actually something worth soaking in. Same will be said with a collabe project like this, The thing to take away from a project like this is the little things not so much the recreation of what is being done but maybe a few hot key tricks or normal map painting of photoshop layer tricks.
Those type of things will make you a better artist and you probably can recreat them into your workflow alot faster as well.
I think people are getting a little too caught up in who can and who can't participate. Read the thread title (Lurkers, Professionals and Students - OXY, I'm looking at you).
This isn't a matter of watch me and my industry buddies make some artwork for you to fap over. It's an opportunity for the vast talent of Polycount to come together, to create and document their workflow and process of creating AAA quality content to share with the Polycount Community as a learning tool. Anyone who thinks this is a bad thing should get their head checked.
I'd love to be apart of this, but would I be "good enough"? Probably, not. But do I care that I'm not "good enough"?. Of course not! Because I still get to watch this project evolve, I get to see how other artists work, I get to learn neat tips and tricks from their workflow that I can later use in my own arsenal.
Just because Adam threw out a few names of higher profile Polycount members, that doesn't mean that they ARE the team. It was just an example. Chances are half if not all of those names mentioned won't even have the time to participate in this.
And finally, this is all just speculation, gauging interest. This isn't something that will kick off tomorrow. We are trying to see if the community would be interested in a project like this and we do appreciate the feedback (the positive and the negative).
Ryan Hawkins no I don't most times. I note any shortcuts though. I get the best for my own way of learning hands on with another. I'm more haptic/touch based learning personally.
But in a way I found this all funny. We work or want to work in interactivity but what was being proposed was not so much.
I hope my disagreement/POV will not be held against me.
You might as well do a contest and have top tier people release their files just like it happened with the Brawl with Jordan. (/thread)
Seriously though, I'm not a fan of the idea neither. I'm with Oxy on the fact having a decent hobbyist/student in would make it a better learning experience for the one picked and the others out of the loop, because they would learn from the possible mistakes this guy would make while he gets great criticism from pros.
If not it could just be another contest in teams like we had in the past, where you Adam, could mail pro friends and make a dreamteam.
Please do not get me wrong but I fail to see the point of this thread.
This community is built around people sharing game art.
People come here to see good artists share good art.
And then you ask if the folks around here would be interested to see a bunch of good artists make good art together.
I highly doubt anyone would be against it.
What this thread does instead is polarize the community because what you're proposing is not what some people would expect of something called "The Polycount Art Project".
You can't objectively choose the limited number of participants especially publically, so if this thing is to happen in the most politically correct way, I suggest close down the thread, find the people to participate and then open a "We got together and decided to make this" thread in P&P. Everything else seems pretty moot and could generate unnecessary negativity.
I agree with others that there are a lot of structural problems with the idea and that, between work, personal projects and just general busy schedules, it'd be like herding cats to try and get a bunch of people together to work on a single project.
Here's what I gather so far about what people DO WANT:
To see pros and skilled individuals working to make awesome shit.
To be able to learn from the process those pros use.
To have access to the final assets for learning purposes.
Live streams and video recordings and basically just a ton of documentation to refer back to at a later date.
Here's what I gather so far about what people DO NOT WANT:
A small elite group that isn't very connected to the PC community beyond being high-profile artists.
Being unable to participate, even indirectly in the form of QA stuff in WIP threads.
Generally excluding the community in any way.
Here's what I propose as an alternative: Polycount Open Tutorial Season
Get a handful of artists from different disciplines. Have each of them lay the groundwork for a small, individual project that is focused on their specific set of skills. For example, somebody like Snefer could lay out the design for a fully modular UDK level that only uses like four models and two channels in an RGB texture, or Virtuosic could come up with a concept for some mind-blowing crazy fucking shader that spawns super models from the space between nothingness.
Once you have these people and their preliminary materials gathered, they all to start threads in P&P with a standardized naming convention. Over the course of the next month or two, they provide detailed descriptions of the techniques they use to achieve whatever they're doing. Maybe they have some script or custom lighting setup or workflow tips or modeling methods. Who cares? Just make sure they're willing and able to show a ton of documentation, and make sure they're also willing to release their work to Polycount as downloadable stuff.
Once that's started, do a weekly recap featuring the progress and highlights from each thread until they're all finished. Once everybody's done, release everything to the community. Hell, have the artists release updates to stuff as they're working on them. Let people take a look at WIP models and Zbrush doodles and UDK levels with broken lighting.
Just some food for thought. I have no idea how feasible it would actually be, or if it could even work, but it doesn't have the dangerous pitfall of making a group of people work together online.
I really think some people are over-thinking this a bit and almost taking it personally.
From reading Adam's op, this sounds like it would essentially be a series of tutorial lessons or a workshop that happens to fit together into something you can experience inside of a game-engine at the end instead of just a video or pdf file. The fact that it would be higher level artist who applied to participate (it says that quite clearly) is just like any other online workshop you'd follow.
as someone who, I think fits your lower experience range oXYnary, I fail to see how people would learn more watching me screw up than simply watching the pro's get it right the first time. Unless they've taken the initiative to follow along at home, they're still just watching.
Actually that's not a bad idea. I was looking up the Flow Maps thread earlier today and I found it interesting cause the guys in that thread were working together to get Flow Maps working in UDK and this one individual acted as a tutor and tried to encourage the rest of the guys to figure it out. He knew the answer but he witheld it at first and then wrote a lengthy explanation. From there the others broke it down and they all started discussing how to improve the material shader with less nodes etc
At the end someone posted a tutorial on how to make flow maps work and combined with what the guys discussed in that thread, I had all I needed to learn how it all worked.
I honestly think it'd be more beneficial if a topic is chosen like "How to make great lighting" and the whole community can contribute their ideas and there could be a discussion compared with examples. Could be a weekly thing or something. Like a seperate forum section for "The Weekly Debate".
Cause while I'd love to see some top artists make my eyes fall out of my stalks I'd probably prefer something that improves my skillset. My latest project could benefit from a discussion on how to make good looking floating islands for example. It'd be neat to see someone document each step. One guy might say "Oh I used 3DCoat to make the basic shape and then sculpted it in Mudbox" or another might be like "well I think it'd be faster and easier if you blocked it out in Max and generated a normal in Crazybump."
I suppose in a way it'd be like a more advanced version of the "How do you make that shape" thread.
Why not just make a mod or stand alone Free2play? if your going to all the effort the bring a team together and what not.
A lot more time and planning would need to be put into that and it would risk a lot more chance of losing steam after a few weeks than a smaller art project would.
The thing that seemed off to me about this is what ever happened to a talented person writing a tutorial?
I remember the old Varga tutorial from that one Domwar. I must have went through that thing a hundred times over the course of a year. So much to learn from just looking at a guy who documented his workflow. In fact, that was always the best thing about Domwar. You see an awesome entry, and you can do more than just stare at it, you can click the thread to see how it was made from beginning to end. People ask questions, the whole nine yards.
Now we have things like this project, and the one Hazardous is doing. We're talking applications, exclusive groups, some of these things are even paid now.
There isn't necessarily anything wrong with these things individually. In fact, I think Hazardous' take on it takes it to the next level. It's one thing to see how a talented person makes something. It's another to see that person critique lesser work, and seeing how that person thinks. But the trend overall is just unappealing. Not gonna go on an end-of-the-world rant saying the community is ruined. But simply that it's changing from what I remember and what I got into. And it's changing into something that's unappealing (to me).
As far as getting people to just post some art and talk about it, I thought the competitions did a pretty good job at that. Brawl went pretty well didn't it? I know Domwar back in the day was pretty inspiring. Isn't that basically what this project is? There's a theme (like in those competitions), you have people making art for that theme, then post it with progress and answer questions. Sounds like a good'ol competition to me. Just that this one excludes everyone who isn't in that group.
As far as getting people to just post some art and talk about it, I thought the competitions did a pretty good job at that. Brawl went pretty well didn't it? I know Domwar back in the day was pretty inspiring. Isn't that basically what this project is? There's a theme (like in those competitions), you have people making art for that theme, then post it with progress and answer questions. Sounds like a good'ol competition to me. Just that this one excludes everyone who isn't in that group.
I don't disagree with this. I do think there are two sides to it, though.
On the one hand, yes, you're correct. It would exclude people and that is kind of uncool depending upon how it's handled.
On the other, if it's put together the right way, it could be a lot more helpful and educational than just clicking through somebody's WIP thread.
I don't think I have a solution to making it overly exclusive, so I definitely think it's something that warrants consideration and discussion.
Actually that's not a bad idea. I was looking up the Flow Maps thread earlier today and I found it interesting cause the guys in that thread were working together to get Flow Maps working in UDK and this one individual acted as a tutor and tried to encourage the rest of the guys to figure it out. He knew the answer but he witheld it at first and then wrote a lengthy explanation. From there the others broke it down and they all started discussing how to improve the material shader with less nodes etc
At the end someone posted a tutorial on how to make flow maps work and combined with what the guys discussed in that thread, I had all I needed to learn how it all worked.
that was such an awesome thread. Still need to make that tool for maya :poly141:
I think the idea in general is great and would love to see something come of this.
In regards to the debate about having an amateur participate, I say nay. If you want to watch a professional train a noob, just go sit in on a class at your local Art Institute or w/e. I think that process is something that is very visible and easily accessible to everyone. Even just by going through P&P, you can find that.
But seeing a team of pros making things, interacting with each other, and simulating a production like environment? That's not easy to for people to observe. And I say get the most elite people you possibly can. Who wouldn't want to see the best artists collaborating together?
Please do not get me wrong but I fail to see the point of this thread.
This community is built around people sharing game art.
People come here to see good artists share good art.
And then you ask if the folks around here would be interested to see a bunch of good artists make good art together.
I highly doubt anyone would be against it.
What this thread does instead is polarize the community because what you're proposing is not what some people would expect of something called "The Polycount Art Project".
You can't objectively choose the limited number of participants especially publically, so if this thing is to happen in the most politically correct way, I suggest close down the thread, find the people to participate and then open a "We got together and decided to make this" thread in P&P. Everything else seems pretty moot and could generate unnecessary negativity.
+1
This is something that you could have done without actually making a thread, Im sure you have all the guys "you" want to work with on your MSN anyways.
You should of gauged their interest on the project not polycounts.
I guess we can agree to disagree. I feel you're completely wrong. This has always been a difficult industry to break into. I graduated in 2000, and of my graduating class only 2 of us managed to find work in 3D.
clip
The people that require the motivation of someone else shoving them and coddling them will never make it anywhere in life.
I say, DO IT! If this can be done and succeed then why not. I believe it would still be a learning experience for even those that participate, because they may be working with other professionals they never have had the opportunity to work with in a studio setting. That can lend to some headaches as much as learning like when any team is formed at a studio for a title that has yet to be created/proven. You can put a "dream" team together and things can still fall apart, not that I'm saying they would or dooming the project...that would be a trolling. I think this could be awesomely valuable to the community as a whole, especially if the transparency does retain being 100% throughout the process and is documented in full and not just a slide show with subtitles of "this first, some stuff happened here, and voila!" Detailed documentation would be very productive. This is definitely going to be an undertaking of some great self sacrifice for those involved with the only reward being the gratitude of community and people who happen upon the resulting information without knowing such a thing existed. I'm definitely interested to see how this all pans out. You have a thumbs up from me.
I think the idea is fine but like a few others not the way it was presented. I dont think there should have been any thread created to judge how the polycounters feel because dose it really matter if there excluded from doing actual work?
I think the idea is solid and cool but it should have been something set up behind closed doors, just getting the people you would want in this project first. Then actually start something, again dont show people until you guys know you have a little bit going instead of having nothing to show.
You can still show it off to the community, answer questions and stuff about work flows ideas blah blah blah. There is no need to connect this to Polycount, it can just be 8 talented artists all deciding to work on a project and they want to showcase it off to the community and document there process.
That is how I think it should have been done/handled. The idea is solid to have an elite group of artists working on a project but first see if they want to do it, and then get some work done to show so you dont have threads like these which people bitching. No need to say this is a Polycount project.
For community driven projects I think the contests are the best and should continue and take precedents over something like this. Reading articles, tutorials and talking to skilled artists is great but the ONLY way you will improve is if you actually DOING things.
I was going to suggest something similar to this, but on a smaller scale. 4 people max, and as a competition for all PC.
You could lead one team and have them document everything, but at least this way everyone can contribute.
Extrapolating this idea a bit -- a group competition with elite invitation only team 'captains' who draft their teams could be fun.
addendum: Oxy, i don't really understand your attitude. What is your central objection to the idea?
Yes, what Skakerzero and joseph said. Btw people around here get their panties in a twist easily (realizing this NOW! after reading thru this thing) just make art. jesus!
Not sure if this would be viable, but have you considered multiple teams to make it some kind of competition? Or are we looking for something different, because we've always done competitions here? Either way I don't think it's really much of a "community project" if only a handful of people do all the work.
Replies
Damn old age...forgetting shit..
You recognize a great man for your humbleness
As JacqueChoi mentioned, character artists generally work much more closely with animators, while enviro guys tend to work with the actual designers and whatnot. There isn't a ton of overlap on these sorts of things unless you have some sort of large character tightly integrated into the environment itself.
Speaking of which, if you wanted to do an art collaboration with character and environment guys, something like a boss fight arena would probably be the best bet.
Otherwise its coming off as a complete whose-who of Polycounts pros. Which, just makes this a less desirable community if only the top tier can contribute to things like this. I would also argue that some of the top tier may not have the passion of the student or hobbyist. So it might be good for both sides.
-The Pro picks up the eagerness of the younger.
-The younger picks up the dicipline and new ways of creating better from the Pros.
I'm not saying letting anyone be this 8th person. Still have that portfolio review, but leave the spot in each team for those you think would help complete each one. So the student character artist who work is ok can make background characters in a crowd scene. Or the environmental artist who only has a few works and is slow works on a team where there only needs to be a few assets with people who know the tools.
Maybe I misread you Adam, but sometimes I do wonder if you have forgotten your roots.
From my OP: "This would be a 100% transparent experiment by professionals or highly talented artists." How you got "no students" out of this I have no idea.
As for the rest of what you've written: Anyone can contribute to any of their own projects and team up with whomever they'd like to with anything on Polycount. There is an intended design to the idea I've proposed that does not fit that ideal but shouldn't stop anyone - studenty, hobbyist, professional, etc. - from doing their own thing along these lines.
I really really like this idea. And I'd love to see what you guys could whip up.
You could lead one team and have them document everything, but at least this way everyone can contribute.
Let me put it this way.. Why can't one of those on your own team be say kHellstr
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=94914 ?? Why can't you deem that one of the stipulations for any of these official collaborations?
Having the POV on the team itself from someone outside your Pro way of creating professionally would help as well with the write ups. It would be a better fit
Because otherwise it becomes just a glorified tutorial without actual contribution from the community other than feedback and questions. Reading and writing about how something is done are great but DOING, especially with OTHERS whom are BETTER is 100X educational.
Thats a cope out. By attempting this, your saying that all collaborations are treated equally here on Polycount. I belive either you are fooling yourself if you believe that. Which will have more sway and eyes? A group of up and comers who post a project that you "might" announce on the site. Or a group of pros only you are apart of who create a project. I can tell you which I would follow given that choice.
I don't think the lack of overlap is an issue really. Everyone would have their own things to work on and if they need to interface with each other, cool. If not, also cool. Just write about how its going and what you're tackling (and how you're tackling it) and thats fine. It's about the end product and how we individually got to it.
The end product, obviously, would have to incorporate all the disciplines involved some how.
I personally find the really good student/amateur artists tend to separate themselves, and are incredibly self-directed.
I'm concerned that this could turn into a spectator sort of thing. Where instead of people asking questions/learning/participating it turns into a thread of replies mostly consisting of 'OMGz teh awesomez!!1!'. If that could be avoided then I think this idea has a lot of merit.
This this this this this
Would you benefit from interfacing with talented artists who are all working towards 1 singular goal and documenting their process as much as possible? And when its done you get something awesome to run around in and see up close while remembering all of the technical or artistic achievements that happened to get to that end result?
Regardless of your answer to this question, thats the purpose of me asking. Its not 'hey who do you want to see collaborate?' but rather 'would you benefit from this?'. Yes? OK how. No? OK why not?
We're getting replies from both sides of the spectrum so there's definitely purpose to asking.
+1 to this. Think it would help a tonne with the whole documentation process, for example when Racer did his livestream for the RC Buggy was just interesting hearing him talk about his approach to texturing the model. Might be not doable with audio since the person will probably be distracted but an idea. I'm all for this idea as the one thing I really enjoyed was the learning process happening in each BRAWL challenge thread. Both from a technical and artistic standpoint.
Here is my interpretation
-To have a project created by professionals that the community can chime in and watch during the creation.
Here is what I am explaining to you.
-To have a project created by Polycount artists from a group of Pros AND up and coming hobbyists or students that the community can chime in and watch during the creation.
I think something will be lost in the process if it is just all pros. The first hand viewpoint that hobbyist can bring to the project creation with the write ups especially that you would have overlooked that the community here that is trying to get better can appreciate.
I go back to what I just said above
"Reading and writing about how something is done are great but DOING, especially with OTHERS whom are BETTER is 100X educational." I mean cmon, even your list is who you know you can work with. Not building new contacts with non professionals you work with outside the feedback you get.
Adam, I forget, did you partake of that Joust re-imagination back in the day? When you still were trying to break in. The one anyone could contribute to? Try to remember back to those times and what would have helped you the most.
JacqueChoi. I say bullshit. It didn't start this way, and its only attitudes like yours that have made it feel this way.
I will also say I find the unlikelihood of a squad of dudes finishing a project in their free time as a collective in any sane amount of time pretty staggering.
TLDR: The idea is fine. The presentation was bad. Good luck herding the kittens.
I would like to see someone from this range respond to my critique though versus those in the industry already. I really think many of you have forgotten what it was like.
Thats pretty much my thought on this. I came in to this thinking that if it was a resounding 'YES!' that getting people together would be the most difficult part of this, nevermind if we actually finish something. That said, I wouldn't be asking people to help openly on the forum like this. It would all be through email.
Going forward I doubt this idea would come to fruition - mainly due to scheduling and time people can commit. In the end, it may just be me and a couple of dudes busting on some art and documenting it. It wouldn't be officially released through Polycount or anything.
The downside though announcing and doing with no interaction with the community before hand just lessons the sense of community and more of a commercial instruction site feeling. (Talked to versus talked with)
Do so in this case as well, most of the time when a dvd or a tutorial is released about 20% of it is actually something worth soaking in. Same will be said with a collabe project like this, The thing to take away from a project like this is the little things not so much the recreation of what is being done but maybe a few hot key tricks or normal map painting of photoshop layer tricks.
Those type of things will make you a better artist and you probably can recreat them into your workflow alot faster as well.
Just My Two Cents/
This isn't a matter of watch me and my industry buddies make some artwork for you to fap over. It's an opportunity for the vast talent of Polycount to come together, to create and document their workflow and process of creating AAA quality content to share with the Polycount Community as a learning tool. Anyone who thinks this is a bad thing should get their head checked.
I'd love to be apart of this, but would I be "good enough"? Probably, not. But do I care that I'm not "good enough"?. Of course not! Because I still get to watch this project evolve, I get to see how other artists work, I get to learn neat tips and tricks from their workflow that I can later use in my own arsenal.
Just because Adam threw out a few names of higher profile Polycount members, that doesn't mean that they ARE the team. It was just an example. Chances are half if not all of those names mentioned won't even have the time to participate in this.
And finally, this is all just speculation, gauging interest. This isn't something that will kick off tomorrow. We are trying to see if the community would be interested in a project like this and we do appreciate the feedback (the positive and the negative).
But in a way I found this all funny. We work or want to work in interactivity but what was being proposed was not so much.
I hope my disagreement/POV will not be held against me.
Ben said it a lot more eloquently than I:
http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/money_mouth.htm
Seriously though, I'm not a fan of the idea neither. I'm with Oxy on the fact having a decent hobbyist/student in would make it a better learning experience for the one picked and the others out of the loop, because they would learn from the possible mistakes this guy would make while he gets great criticism from pros.
If not it could just be another contest in teams like we had in the past, where you Adam, could mail pro friends and make a dreamteam.
This community is built around people sharing game art.
People come here to see good artists share good art.
And then you ask if the folks around here would be interested to see a bunch of good artists make good art together.
I highly doubt anyone would be against it.
What this thread does instead is polarize the community because what you're proposing is not what some people would expect of something called "The Polycount Art Project".
You can't objectively choose the limited number of participants especially publically, so if this thing is to happen in the most politically correct way, I suggest close down the thread, find the people to participate and then open a "We got together and decided to make this" thread in P&P. Everything else seems pretty moot and could generate unnecessary negativity.
Here's what I gather so far about what people DO WANT:
Here's what I gather so far about what people DO NOT WANT:
Here's what I propose as an alternative: Polycount Open Tutorial Season
Get a handful of artists from different disciplines. Have each of them lay the groundwork for a small, individual project that is focused on their specific set of skills. For example, somebody like Snefer could lay out the design for a fully modular UDK level that only uses like four models and two channels in an RGB texture, or Virtuosic could come up with a concept for some mind-blowing crazy fucking shader that spawns super models from the space between nothingness.
Once you have these people and their preliminary materials gathered, they all to start threads in P&P with a standardized naming convention. Over the course of the next month or two, they provide detailed descriptions of the techniques they use to achieve whatever they're doing. Maybe they have some script or custom lighting setup or workflow tips or modeling methods. Who cares? Just make sure they're willing and able to show a ton of documentation, and make sure they're also willing to release their work to Polycount as downloadable stuff.
Once that's started, do a weekly recap featuring the progress and highlights from each thread until they're all finished. Once everybody's done, release everything to the community. Hell, have the artists release updates to stuff as they're working on them. Let people take a look at WIP models and Zbrush doodles and UDK levels with broken lighting.
Just some food for thought. I have no idea how feasible it would actually be, or if it could even work, but it doesn't have the dangerous pitfall of making a group of people work together online.
From reading Adam's op, this sounds like it would essentially be a series of tutorial lessons or a workshop that happens to fit together into something you can experience inside of a game-engine at the end instead of just a video or pdf file. The fact that it would be higher level artist who applied to participate (it says that quite clearly) is just like any other online workshop you'd follow.
as someone who, I think fits your lower experience range oXYnary, I fail to see how people would learn more watching me screw up than simply watching the pro's get it right the first time. Unless they've taken the initiative to follow along at home, they're still just watching.
At the end someone posted a tutorial on how to make flow maps work and combined with what the guys discussed in that thread, I had all I needed to learn how it all worked.
I honestly think it'd be more beneficial if a topic is chosen like "How to make great lighting" and the whole community can contribute their ideas and there could be a discussion compared with examples. Could be a weekly thing or something. Like a seperate forum section for "The Weekly Debate".
Cause while I'd love to see some top artists make my eyes fall out of my stalks I'd probably prefer something that improves my skillset. My latest project could benefit from a discussion on how to make good looking floating islands for example. It'd be neat to see someone document each step. One guy might say "Oh I used 3DCoat to make the basic shape and then sculpted it in Mudbox" or another might be like "well I think it'd be faster and easier if you blocked it out in Max and generated a normal in Crazybump."
I suppose in a way it'd be like a more advanced version of the "How do you make that shape" thread.
A lot more time and planning would need to be put into that and it would risk a lot more chance of losing steam after a few weeks than a smaller art project would.
I remember the old Varga tutorial from that one Domwar. I must have went through that thing a hundred times over the course of a year. So much to learn from just looking at a guy who documented his workflow. In fact, that was always the best thing about Domwar. You see an awesome entry, and you can do more than just stare at it, you can click the thread to see how it was made from beginning to end. People ask questions, the whole nine yards.
Now we have things like this project, and the one Hazardous is doing. We're talking applications, exclusive groups, some of these things are even paid now.
There isn't necessarily anything wrong with these things individually. In fact, I think Hazardous' take on it takes it to the next level. It's one thing to see how a talented person makes something. It's another to see that person critique lesser work, and seeing how that person thinks. But the trend overall is just unappealing. Not gonna go on an end-of-the-world rant saying the community is ruined. But simply that it's changing from what I remember and what I got into. And it's changing into something that's unappealing (to me).
As far as getting people to just post some art and talk about it, I thought the competitions did a pretty good job at that. Brawl went pretty well didn't it? I know Domwar back in the day was pretty inspiring. Isn't that basically what this project is? There's a theme (like in those competitions), you have people making art for that theme, then post it with progress and answer questions. Sounds like a good'ol competition to me. Just that this one excludes everyone who isn't in that group.
I don't disagree with this. I do think there are two sides to it, though.
On the one hand, yes, you're correct. It would exclude people and that is kind of uncool depending upon how it's handled.
On the other, if it's put together the right way, it could be a lot more helpful and educational than just clicking through somebody's WIP thread.
I don't think I have a solution to making it overly exclusive, so I definitely think it's something that warrants consideration and discussion.
starting a discussion thread about whether work is worth doing is another story
that was such an awesome thread. Still need to make that tool for maya :poly141:
In regards to the debate about having an amateur participate, I say nay. If you want to watch a professional train a noob, just go sit in on a class at your local Art Institute or w/e. I think that process is something that is very visible and easily accessible to everyone. Even just by going through P&P, you can find that.
But seeing a team of pros making things, interacting with each other, and simulating a production like environment? That's not easy to for people to observe. And I say get the most elite people you possibly can. Who wouldn't want to see the best artists collaborating together?
+1
This is something that you could have done without actually making a thread, Im sure you have all the guys "you" want to work with on your MSN anyways.
You should of gauged their interest on the project not polycounts.
I can also clearly see in this thread the division between experience/student and more importantly the lessons already being learned on both sides.
Must be great to be you huh?
I think the idea is solid and cool but it should have been something set up behind closed doors, just getting the people you would want in this project first. Then actually start something, again dont show people until you guys know you have a little bit going instead of having nothing to show.
You can still show it off to the community, answer questions and stuff about work flows ideas blah blah blah. There is no need to connect this to Polycount, it can just be 8 talented artists all deciding to work on a project and they want to showcase it off to the community and document there process.
That is how I think it should have been done/handled. The idea is solid to have an elite group of artists working on a project but first see if they want to do it, and then get some work done to show so you dont have threads like these which people bitching. No need to say this is a Polycount project.
For community driven projects I think the contests are the best and should continue and take precedents over something like this. Reading articles, tutorials and talking to skilled artists is great but the ONLY way you will improve is if you actually DOING things.
Extrapolating this idea a bit -- a group competition with elite invitation only team 'captains' who draft their teams could be fun.
addendum: Oxy, i don't really understand your attitude. What is your central objection to the idea?