Its a good idea for a new company, but double fine has existed for many years and has made mostly good games. If they ditched publishers earlier they would have gathered a lot of money instead of giving it to a publisher. Most of their games dont actually require a publisher (digital distribution only) so there is no need for them. They should be able to come up with $300k for something they believe in. My main fear is that this will become a trend of big companies and take away from people who actually want to make different games.
They shouldnt be in a place where they are reliant on publisher funding to make a game. The idea of a publisher to most people these days is laughable. Telltale has proven that the genre is not dead or even slightly unsuccessful.
Telltale found the niche and got into through having done many licensing-games and then scored a publishing and funding deal with gametap, they distributed sam & max exclusively to begin with.
Without that deal they would've never been able to do it.
Its a good idea for a new company, but double fine has existed for many years and has made mostly good games. If they ditched publishers earlier they would have gathered a lot of money instead of giving it to a publisher. Most of their games dont actually require a publisher (digital distribution only) so there is no need for them. They should be able to come up with $300k for something they believe in. My main fear is that this will become a trend of big companies and take away from people who actually want to make different games.
With what money?, they've been wanting to make psychonauts 2 for quite some time now, and it just hasn't happened because there's no money to get that project going.
The reason indie-developers can go without publishers is that they're incredibly small, and even then they are just as likely to crash and burn after one failed project, with their life-savings having gone into that project.
This IS good for everyone with big companies, they'll be able to make the games people want them to make, without publisher involvement, they will by definition become independent developers.
Publishing is not just about distribution, it's about actually funding the project, even digital-only projects have publishers! The recent projects they've been doing have been digital-only, but they still required publishing.
Yes, Im not against this one instance of Double Fine doing this, because of the publisher position they are in. They may not be able to afford to make the game they want to make, and this may be their attempt to break away from that, and if so good for them. Im concerned that every other company will do this same thing. For example EA/Bioware for Mass Effect 4 and create the same thing over again, because its all they know how to do, while someone who needs 1% of their budget and wants to make an interesting and different game gets no exposure.
Yes, Im not against this one instance of Double Fine doing this, because of the publisher position they are in. They may not be able to afford to make the game they want to make, and this may be their attempt to break away from that, and if so good for them. Im concerned that every other company will do this same thing. For example EA/Bioware for Mass Effect 4 and create the same thing over again, because its all they know how to do, while someone who needs 1% of their budget and wants to make an interesting and different game gets no exposure.
As far as Bioware goes, it's not within EA's interest that they'll go do that, it's actually not within any publishers interest, nor is there any point for a company to try to grab $2 million on kickstarter when they can grab $50 million from a publisher.
It'll be independant(as in not owned by a publisher) game studios that wish to do something on their own.
Its a good idea for a new company, but double fine has existed for many years and has made mostly good games. If they ditched publishers earlier they would have gathered a lot of money instead of giving it to a publisher. Most of their games dont actually require a publisher (digital distribution only) so there is no need for them. They should be able to come up with $300k for something they believe in. My main fear is that this will become a trend of big companies and take away from people who actually want to make different games.
I agree. I really look forward to this endeavor, but it doesn't seem very repeatable as a new funding method. There are maybe 10 people total with the fame and pull his name has, with a proven studio under their belt to ensure a low risk, high likelihood of the game getting made.
Kudos to DF and TS, but this doesn't actually seem like a new funding method for anyone but those who already had direct access to the old model of funding.
There's a lot of indy games that get funded through Kickstarter, I'm sure if a small indy studio got a good gameplay demo and presented itself well, it could easily get $40k for a shorter project.
I honestly just hope we dont see other big studios doing this soon..like EA or something...to no offense I was hoping to put a project up in kick started in the next few months...but now after this...im afraid that the bigger studios will take this away from indies and when people go on kick starter they will look for a new game by a mid sized game studio and give them money as a preorder and guys like us who need a few G to develop will get over looked completely.
Im just hoping im wrong about this and maybe it goes in the opposite positive direction and the attention Double Fine has brought will make more people go to that site and see more smaller games and donate to them to see them completed so we have more original and fun IP's Existing in the main stream world!
there's already a proven method for unknown indie devs - have a playable version of the game and sell access to the beta.
Also, Doublefine is the second million dollar kickstarter - the first to break a million is an iPhone stand made by some guy named Casey: link. If you make something people really want, they will fund you.
Doublefine doesn't have extra profits coming in from engine licensing or a popular online game store. They are like every other studio, they have just enough money to carry them between projects, luckily they were smart and switched to multiple small projects when Brutal Legend 2 was canceled - if they didn't it would have been yet another studio closure.
If you've never worked in the game industry and believed they could of self funded this game, well, I forgive you. Anyone else is being naive, talk like that is fine for kotaku or youtube but this is a forum of industry professionals.
one last thing, the Doublefine thing is great, it's spreading word about Kickstarter. Prior to this, I've met indie devs who have never heard of it.
It would definitely work for EA. If they make a Mass Effect 4 kickstarter page it would probably make enough to completely fund the game... Thats whats scary.
I know exactly what its like to work at a company that cant fund its own games, which is why I never want to do it again. Most big companies cant fund their own games and need publishers because they are big, and their projects need lots of brute force development which is inefficient. A company that makes games on a smaller scope can hire multi-talented people and work much more efficiently. Plus with big companies, and sometimes even small companies you have too much upper management sucking away money without actually contributing anything to the product.
Its a good idea for a new company, but double fine has existed for many years and has made mostly good games. If they ditched publishers earlier they would have gathered a lot of money instead of giving it to a publisher. Most of their games dont actually require a publisher (digital distribution only) so there is no need for them. They should be able to come up with $300k for something they believe in. My main fear is that this will become a trend of big companies and take away from people who actually want to make different games.
Yeah I can understand where you're coming from. I was reading through the kickstarter FAQs and guidelines and they don't really address large companies using their service. I am curious if publicly traded companies have prohibitions limiting where their funding comes from.
It would definitely work for EA. If they make a Mass Effect 4 kickstarter page it would probably make enough to completely fund the game... Thats whats scary.
No, it doesn't work that way, you'll find that most people did not pre-order the mass effect games, but bought them when they were released. It's not viable in any way for a giant publisher, but it is viable for small projects like this one.
More companies will jump on board, but it wont be publisher, and the companies that do wont be owned by publishers, it'll be companies that wish to develop more independantly without publisher-pressure.
Even a very humble psychonauts 2 is not going to be funded by kickstarter, it'll require 15 times the amount of this recordbreaking kickstarter project.
Ever wondered why EA or Activision haven't jumped on board humble bundle yet?
I know exactly what its like to work at a company that cant fund its own games, which is why I never want to do it again. Most big companies cant fund their own games and need publishers because they are big, and their projects need lots of brute force development which is inefficient. A company that makes games on a smaller scope can hire multi-talented people and work much more efficiently. Plus with big companies, and sometimes even small companies you too much upper management sucking away money without actually contributing anything to the product.
You're having quite a grim perspective on games, management can be good, specialized people are not a bad thing, big projects can give us games that have a bigger scope and production value as well as create a ton of more jobs.
The difference between a small company that can fund its own games and one that needs a publisher is that the small company might only hire one artist, while the big one will probably hire several dozen.
What they both have in common is that one failed product is enough to make it crash and burn.
It would definitely work for EA. If they make a Mass Effect 4 kickstarter page it would probably make enough to completely fund the game... Thats whats scary.
If BioWare wants to make Mass Effect 4 or something different without publisher money i'm totaly in
The "I'd never want to work there" comments are odd: a fairly big independent studio that can survive losing a publisher and project cancellation without laying off anyone? A studio that set aside 14 days for the employees to form mini teams and come up with new games to boost morale? Yeah, sounds like a horrible place.
Well, here we go folks. Obsidian are now looking at developing something via Kickstarter. http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/10/obsidian-want-to-know-what-you-want-them-to-make/#comment-page-8
Personally, I'd like to see Chris Avellone do another existential RPG. It doesn't necessarily have to be in the Planescape universe and definitely shouldn't be a direct sequel to Torment. Just something with a bit more going on than the average cliche riddled RPG.
Well, here we go folks. Obsidian are now looking at developing something via Kickstarter. http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/10/obsidian-want-to-know-what-you-want-them-to-make/#comment-page-8
Personally, I'd like to see Chris Avellone do another existential RPG. It doesn't necessarily have to be in the Planescape universe and definitely shouldn't be a direct sequel to Torment. Just something with a bit more going on than the average cliche riddled RPG.
Oh hell yeah. I was just about to write that if someone made a kickstarter project for an RPG in the vein of Baldur's Gate/Planscape Torment/Icewind Dale/Arcanum I would give them money in an instant.
Make it isometric, give me tons of often pointless dialogue options, witty writing and a tactical combat system and I will pay for it double.
Well its unknown how well a big hype project like Mass Effect 4 would do, but considering that Double Fine made over 1.6 million already for something that is "unpublishable", its hard to imagine that something as hyped as Mass Effect wouldnt make many times more than that if it was threatened to be the only way the game will be made.
Even if it was possible for a big company like Bioware to ditch their publisher (or owner) the resulting game wouldnt change because they are already trained to design in a certain way.
And Im not against having high budget games, its just the number of them is getting a little ridiculous these days. Without the pressure of conforming to the established market, games tend to be designed around fun instead of how the market data says they should be design. In my opinion thats why games 8 or 10 years ago were more fun, developers didnt take their projects so seriously.
Well its unknown how well a big hype project like Mass Effect 4 would do, but considering that Double Fine made over 1.6 million already for something that is "unpublishable", its hard to imagine that something as hyped as Mass Effect wouldnt make many times more than that if it was threatened to be the only way the game will be made.
Even if it was possible for a big company like Bioware to ditch their publisher (or owner) the resulting game wouldnt change because they are already trained to design in a certain way.
And Im not against having high budget games, its just the number of them is getting a little ridiculous these days. Without the pressure of conforming to the established market, games tend to be designed around fun instead of how the market data says they should be design. In my opinion thats why games 8 or 10 years ago were more fun, developers didnt take their projects so seriously.
I believe it would be totally impossible to found Mass Effect 4 through kickstarter, we talk about a budget atleast 50 times as much Double Fine has gathered so far. I suspect it costs around 100-120 million dollars to develop a game as large as a mass effect game and with the same ammount of voice acting, and then probably alot more for all the marketing and such afterwards.. I seriously doubt that it would possible to gather that ammount of money from a kickstarter project.
The reason for the large ammount of high budget games now a days is a direct result of the video game industry is starting to be seen as a high profitable industry, more and more people want in.
Well its unknown how well a big hype project like Mass Effect 4 would do, but considering that Double Fine made over 1.6 million already for something that is "unpublishable", its hard to imagine that something as hyped as Mass Effect wouldnt make many times more than that if it was threatened to be the only way the game will be made.
50.000 backers already, which would be considered an incredibly massive failure if that was the sales for a triple-a game. even $2 million is a tiny budget.
You're trying to prove something as a fact which for various reasons won't happen.
Even if it was possible for a big company like Bioware to ditch their publisher (or owner) the resulting game wouldnt change because they are already trained to design in a certain way.
Possibly, but possibly not, it's easier to think about making a game than worrying about making the investment back when you've already got the investment in there. And are focusing on making a game especially for the people that backed a project.
There are a ton of smart and creative people working on these big projects, but they do design them in ways to make money, not because it's the only thing they know, it's a bit belittling to suggest they all are.
And Im not against having high budget games, its just the number of them is getting a little ridiculous these days. Without the pressure of conforming to the established market, games tend to be designed around fun instead of how the market data says they should be design. In my opinion thats why games 8 or 10 years ago were more fun, developers didnt take their projects so seriously.
This has been disproved multiple times, mainly by the fact that people are having a ton of fun in games even today, and that shitty games were made back then, that and we have a super big thriving indie-scene that filled in that other missing part of the industry, there's a big range of games out there for everyone, and I wouldn't want it any other way.
8 or 10 years ago games were still made the same way, publishers invested, games were often streamlined, we got shitty games, we got awesome games. Companies went down, companies started up.
what it think is really pushing it over the top is tim shafer and ron gilbert's name attached. this kind of model seems to work (minecraft, overgrowth, natural selection 2 etc.). problem is i can see it one day someone going to promise big and completely fail to deliver, or deliver the game and find out that the preorderers were most of the audience(ie little to no profit). that said i'm quite excited by this, and really hope it turns out cool.
what it think is really pushing it over the top is tim shafer and ron gilbert's name attached. this kind of model seems to work (minecraft, overgrowth, natural selection 2 etc.). problem is i can see it one day someone going to promise big and completely fail to deliver, or deliver the game and find out that the preorderers were most of the audience(ie little to no profit). that said i'm quite excited by this, and really hope it turns out cool.
on the other hand, with all the money paid up front, they don't have an investment to return using profits from the game, all the profits from the game go directly to founding a new one instead of paying the debt.
Giantbombcast mentioned Doublefine was prepared to fund half of their $400,000 budget because that's usually what you have to do on Kickstarter: fund a big chunk of it yourself so it meets the goal.
I think there will be an influx of mid-size game studios trying to fund games on Kickstarter or something similar. But it will pass, because it won't work most of the time. DoubleFine had a perfect storm of events.
1. Big Publishers abandoned the Adventure Game Genre over the last decade.
2. Tim Schafer is practically the father of adventure games.
3. Tim and DoubleFine have a larger than average loyal fan base.
4. Tim and Notch made headlines the day before the Kickstart discussing Psychonauts2 on Twitter.
Big publishers won't get involved for two reasons. They don't need the money, and if they did they would be expected to expose their internal development processes. And if Big Publishers love anything more than money, it's their dirty secrets.
Not to mention Ron Gilbert the creator of Maniac Mansion and Monkey Island works at double fine as well. Having both Tim and Ron working on an adventure game is hugely exciting for adventure game fans.
I wonder what style they will go with... hand drawn with some 3d? hand drawn only? i kinda miss the curse of monkey island style... but i love full throttle where they have some 3d. I am looking fwd to this tho. It'll be great.
I think there will be an influx of mid-size game studios trying to fund games on Kickstarter or something similar. But it will pass, because it won't work most of the time. DoubleFine had a perfect storm of events.
1. Big Publishers abandoned the Adventure Game Genre over the last decade.
2. Tim Schafer is practically the father of adventure games.
3. Tim and DoubleFine have a larger than average loyal fan base.
4. Tim and Notch made headlines the day before the Kickstart discussing Psychonauts2 on Twitter.
I agree. I think a lot of people are paying more attention to the money generated without a publisher's funding and not focusing on why all that money was generated.
I'm working on a game project with a few bros and one of them suggested the kickstarter method to our lead guy. I had to voice my concern that we were all noobs who lacked Shafer's reputation, and therefore we would not be able to raise enough money.
I agree. I think a lot of people are paying more attention to the money generated without a publisher's funding and not focusing on why all that money was generated.
I'm working on a game project with a few bros and one of them suggested the kickstarter method to our lead guy. I had to voice my concern that we were all noobs who lacked Shafer's reputation, and therefore we would not be able to raise enough money.
If you make a product that people want you will get funding - look through the funded projects on Kickstarter. There are plenty of nobodies that are successfull, the first million dollar kickstarter project was just some guy making a solid aluminum iPhone stand.
There is a trend to the game section: card & board games seem to be the most successful, if you have a niche audience that is neglected by the big boys they will gladly dump buckets of cash on you.
I think kickstarter still requires a US address to set up a project. You could use indiegogo.com though. They also don't require you to meet your goal before getting the cash so even if you only manage to raise $3 they still give it to you.
$3,335,325 ... not bad! wonder how much of that they'll see in their account, anyone know how tax or such works on this? (if it even does)
That's a really good question. I do wonder how that works. Logically, it probably shouldn't be taxed. I don't see how you can call it profit if they haven't sold anything in return. But I'm sure it will be taxed, if the Facebook IPO is anything to go by.
Replies
Telltale found the niche and got into through having done many licensing-games and then scored a publishing and funding deal with gametap, they distributed sam & max exclusively to begin with.
Without that deal they would've never been able to do it.
With what money?, they've been wanting to make psychonauts 2 for quite some time now, and it just hasn't happened because there's no money to get that project going.
The reason indie-developers can go without publishers is that they're incredibly small, and even then they are just as likely to crash and burn after one failed project, with their life-savings having gone into that project.
This IS good for everyone with big companies, they'll be able to make the games people want them to make, without publisher involvement, they will by definition become independent developers.
Publishing is not just about distribution, it's about actually funding the project, even digital-only projects have publishers! The recent projects they've been doing have been digital-only, but they still required publishing.
As far as Bioware goes, it's not within EA's interest that they'll go do that, it's actually not within any publishers interest, nor is there any point for a company to try to grab $2 million on kickstarter when they can grab $50 million from a publisher.
It'll be independant(as in not owned by a publisher) game studios that wish to do something on their own.
It'll be creative projects.
I agree. I really look forward to this endeavor, but it doesn't seem very repeatable as a new funding method. There are maybe 10 people total with the fame and pull his name has, with a proven studio under their belt to ensure a low risk, high likelihood of the game getting made.
Kudos to DF and TS, but this doesn't actually seem like a new funding method for anyone but those who already had direct access to the old model of funding.
Im just hoping im wrong about this and maybe it goes in the opposite positive direction and the attention Double Fine has brought will make more people go to that site and see more smaller games and donate to them to see them completed so we have more original and fun IP's Existing in the main stream world!
Also, Doublefine is the second million dollar kickstarter - the first to break a million is an iPhone stand made by some guy named Casey: link. If you make something people really want, they will fund you.
Doublefine doesn't have extra profits coming in from engine licensing or a popular online game store. They are like every other studio, they have just enough money to carry them between projects, luckily they were smart and switched to multiple small projects when Brutal Legend 2 was canceled - if they didn't it would have been yet another studio closure.
If you've never worked in the game industry and believed they could of self funded this game, well, I forgive you. Anyone else is being naive, talk like that is fine for kotaku or youtube but this is a forum of industry professionals.
one last thing, the Doublefine thing is great, it's spreading word about Kickstarter. Prior to this, I've met indie devs who have never heard of it.
I know exactly what its like to work at a company that cant fund its own games, which is why I never want to do it again. Most big companies cant fund their own games and need publishers because they are big, and their projects need lots of brute force development which is inefficient. A company that makes games on a smaller scope can hire multi-talented people and work much more efficiently. Plus with big companies, and sometimes even small companies you have too much upper management sucking away money without actually contributing anything to the product.
Yeah I can understand where you're coming from. I was reading through the kickstarter FAQs and guidelines and they don't really address large companies using their service. I am curious if publicly traded companies have prohibitions limiting where their funding comes from.
No, it doesn't work that way, you'll find that most people did not pre-order the mass effect games, but bought them when they were released. It's not viable in any way for a giant publisher, but it is viable for small projects like this one.
More companies will jump on board, but it wont be publisher, and the companies that do wont be owned by publishers, it'll be companies that wish to develop more independantly without publisher-pressure.
Even a very humble psychonauts 2 is not going to be funded by kickstarter, it'll require 15 times the amount of this recordbreaking kickstarter project.
Ever wondered why EA or Activision haven't jumped on board humble bundle yet?
You're having quite a grim perspective on games, management can be good, specialized people are not a bad thing, big projects can give us games that have a bigger scope and production value as well as create a ton of more jobs.
The difference between a small company that can fund its own games and one that needs a publisher is that the small company might only hire one artist, while the big one will probably hire several dozen.
What they both have in common is that one failed product is enough to make it crash and burn.
If BioWare wants to make Mass Effect 4 or something different without publisher money i'm totaly in
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/10/obsidian-want-to-know-what-you-want-them-to-make/#comment-page-8
Personally, I'd like to see Chris Avellone do another existential RPG. It doesn't necessarily have to be in the Planescape universe and definitely shouldn't be a direct sequel to Torment. Just something with a bit more going on than the average cliche riddled RPG.
http://kotaku.com/5884350/outgoing-twisted-metal-creator-would-consider-kickstarter-funding-for-his-new-project-too
Oh hell yeah. I was just about to write that if someone made a kickstarter project for an RPG in the vein of Baldur's Gate/Planscape Torment/Icewind Dale/Arcanum I would give them money in an instant.
Make it isometric, give me tons of often pointless dialogue options, witty writing and a tactical combat system and I will pay for it double.
Even if it was possible for a big company like Bioware to ditch their publisher (or owner) the resulting game wouldnt change because they are already trained to design in a certain way.
And Im not against having high budget games, its just the number of them is getting a little ridiculous these days. Without the pressure of conforming to the established market, games tend to be designed around fun instead of how the market data says they should be design. In my opinion thats why games 8 or 10 years ago were more fun, developers didnt take their projects so seriously.
I believe it would be totally impossible to found Mass Effect 4 through kickstarter, we talk about a budget atleast 50 times as much Double Fine has gathered so far. I suspect it costs around 100-120 million dollars to develop a game as large as a mass effect game and with the same ammount of voice acting, and then probably alot more for all the marketing and such afterwards.. I seriously doubt that it would possible to gather that ammount of money from a kickstarter project.
The reason for the large ammount of high budget games now a days is a direct result of the video game industry is starting to be seen as a high profitable industry, more and more people want in.
50.000 backers already, which would be considered an incredibly massive failure if that was the sales for a triple-a game. even $2 million is a tiny budget.
You're trying to prove something as a fact which for various reasons won't happen.
Possibly, but possibly not, it's easier to think about making a game than worrying about making the investment back when you've already got the investment in there. And are focusing on making a game especially for the people that backed a project.
There are a ton of smart and creative people working on these big projects, but they do design them in ways to make money, not because it's the only thing they know, it's a bit belittling to suggest they all are.
This has been disproved multiple times, mainly by the fact that people are having a ton of fun in games even today, and that shitty games were made back then, that and we have a super big thriving indie-scene that filled in that other missing part of the industry, there's a big range of games out there for everyone, and I wouldn't want it any other way.
8 or 10 years ago games were still made the same way, publishers invested, games were often streamlined, we got shitty games, we got awesome games. Companies went down, companies started up.
on the other hand, with all the money paid up front, they don't have an investment to return using profits from the game, all the profits from the game go directly to founding a new one instead of paying the debt.
http://epicbattleaxe.com/notch-offers-to-fund-pyschonauts-2-with-tim-schafer/
1. Big Publishers abandoned the Adventure Game Genre over the last decade.
2. Tim Schafer is practically the father of adventure games.
3. Tim and DoubleFine have a larger than average loyal fan base.
4. Tim and Notch made headlines the day before the Kickstart discussing Psychonauts2 on Twitter.
Big publishers won't get involved for two reasons. They don't need the money, and if they did they would be expected to expose their internal development processes. And if Big Publishers love anything more than money, it's their dirty secrets.
I agree. I think a lot of people are paying more attention to the money generated without a publisher's funding and not focusing on why all that money was generated.
I'm working on a game project with a few bros and one of them suggested the kickstarter method to our lead guy. I had to voice my concern that we were all noobs who lacked Shafer's reputation, and therefore we would not be able to raise enough money.
If you make a product that people want you will get funding - look through the funded projects on Kickstarter. There are plenty of nobodies that are successfull, the first million dollar kickstarter project was just some guy making a solid aluminum iPhone stand.
There is a trend to the game section: card & board games seem to be the most successful, if you have a niche audience that is neglected by the big boys they will gladly dump buckets of cash on you.
I'm in the UK and I can donate, dunno if I can set up a project though.
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/qhk98/i_am_a_tim_schafer_ask_me_about_loom_or_anything/
That's a really good question. I do wonder how that works. Logically, it probably shouldn't be taxed. I don't see how you can call it profit if they haven't sold anything in return. But I'm sure it will be taxed, if the Facebook IPO is anything to go by.
http://venturebeat.com/2012/03/08/this-is-kickstarter/
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/355932838/crowdsourced-hardcore-tactical-shooter
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2