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Blender 2.6 Modeling Tools. What's missing and what do you want?

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  • Mongrelman
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    Mongrelman polycounter lvl 18
    Improving moving faces along normals would be good. Currently it doesn't just move it along the face's normal it also scales it too.
  • haba_haba
    Ah ok. I have never experienced this tbh. Maybe it would be worth submitting a bug.


    Ahh, I see what you mean. Is this how selection works in other 3d packages? It seems reasonable to me that the current implementation is correct, as with each face you select containing 4 edges and 4 verts and when you change to edges or verts, those same edges or verts are still selected.
    ...
    Maybe it's reasonable, maybe not. Anyhow it would be nice to have an option to change it
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    Click the button in the image to get what you're talking about, which is exactly what kat is saying

    blender.png

    There's one glaring problem with it though, in face mode, all faces are split from each other. That's not good. They need to change that.
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    greevar wrote: »
    There's one glaring problem with it though, in face mode, all faces are split from each other. That's not good. They need to change that.
    Split?
  • kat
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    kat polycounter lvl 17
    @ metalliandy: I'd be happy with bevel (which you already mentioned)!

    @ greevar: submit a bug report and see if that's actually an ommission rather than designed feature.
  • kat
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    kat polycounter lvl 17
    Split?
    Yeah he means when you select a vert or edge it also selects neighbouring elements, it doesn't do that when using face select.
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    kat wrote: »
    @ metalliandy: I'd be happy with bevel (which you already mentioned)!

    Bevel ftw!
    kat wrote: »
    Yeah he means when you select a vert or edge it also selects neighbouring elements, it doesn't do that when using face select.


    Yea, it's been like that since at least 2.49b. It's definitely worth submitting it as a bug report...the behaviour doesn't seem very logical.
  • 9skulls
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    9skulls polycounter lvl 13
    Whow, a Blender thread here? How come I never seen it before. Oh well, I guess I need to leave the pimpin'-thread more often :P

    About the topic here. Just a minor thing that bugs me. Let's say you have one basic quad, and you go to edit mode, select 2 opposite vertices and press F to create an edge between the two. You'd think that the quad is now divided into 2 tris since that is what it looks like, right? But no. It doesn't. It's still just a one big quad with one crossing edge that doesn't really do any good. So why can't Blender be wise enough to split the quad for me, if I was to "cut" the quad with a new edge like that?

    Yes, I know, I could use CTRL+T to triangulate the quad but for me sometimes the edge thing feels more natural.

    + Also proper edge cut tools, as someone pointed out earlier.
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    9skulls wrote: »
    Whow, a Blender thread here? How come I never seen it before. Oh well, I guess I need to leave the pimpin'-thread more often :P

    About the topic here. Just a minor thing that bugs me. Let's say you have one basic quad, and you go to edit mode, select 2 opposite vertices and press F to create an edge between the two. You'd think that the quad is now divided into 2 tris since that is what it looks like, right? But no. It doesn't. It's still just a one big quad with one crossing edge that doesn't really do any good. So why can't Blender be wise enough to split the quad for me, if I was to "cut" the quad with a new edge like that?

    Yes, I know, I could use CTRL+T to triangulate the quad but for me sometimes the edge thing feels more natural.

    + Also proper edge cut tools, as someone pointed out earlier.

    Nice idea. It would be great if Blender was a little more intelligent in this way :)
  • Vrav
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    Vrav polycounter lvl 11
    There are a lot of illogical things... are we just supposed to submit these as bugs? I'm always worried they're considered features. For example, opacity pressure has never worked when painting in the image editor...

    metalliandy: any idea on the possibility of splitting up selections and actual actions/modifications into two different undo stacks?
  • Arkadius
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    Arkadius polycounter lvl 13
    Vrav wrote: »
    metalliandy: any idea on the possibility of splitting up selections and actual actions/modifications into two different undo stacks?

    Oh please no! Not all of us would like this!

    I think a decent and fluid cut tool simliar to XSI or silo would be a nice addition.

    Background constraints and snapping similar to modo would be nice as well!
  • Vrav
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    Vrav polycounter lvl 11
    Arkadius wrote: »
    Oh please no! Not all of us would like this!

    It'd be optional, of course!
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    Vrav wrote: »
    There are a lot of illogical things... are we just supposed to submit these as bugs? I'm always worried they're considered features. For example, opacity pressure has never worked when painting in the image editor...

    metalliandy: any idea on the possibility of splitting up selections and actual actions/modifications into two different undo stacks?
    I dont think this would be very likley tbh...the undo system in Blender is crude and needs to be revamped before they can consider doing anything like that.

    As for the opacity issue, yea that sounds like a bug. AFAIK, Opacity should work when using a tablet and there is a bug currently under investigation regarding pressure sensitivity. Don't worry about them saying its a feature after you report...you might have found something that got overlooked somehow. Happens all the time :)
    Arkadius wrote: »
    I think a decent and fluid cut tool simliar to XSI or silo would be a nice addition.

    Background constraints and snapping similar to modo would be nice as well!
    BMesh will include a comprehensive knife tool, AFAIK :)
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    BMesh will include a comprehensive knife tool, AFAIK :)

    Will it be possible to turn off Bmesh if you don't want to work in Ngons?
  • metalliandy
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    metalliandy interpolator
    greevar wrote: »
    Will it be possible to turn off Bmesh if you don't want to work in Ngons?
    I don't think so. I'm guessing it will be the same as Max.
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    greevar wrote: »
    Will it be possible to turn off Bmesh if you don't want to work in Ngons?

    why not just work in a way that wont create them, and you could also write a simple script that selects all faces with >4 sides.

    besides your just slowing yourself down not useing them, even if your making a mesh that is all quads, it can help speed things up to use ngons here and there and quad it up later by adding edges and making cuts.
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    passerby wrote: »
    why not just work in a way that wont create them, and you could also write a simple script that selects all faces with >4 sides.

    besides your just slowing yourself down not useing them, even if your making a mesh that is all quads, it can help speed things up to use ngons here and there and quad it up later by adding edges and making cuts.

    I like quads. It's easy to create and control edge flow.
  • Michael Knubben
    Aaargh, long post lost ('expired token'... It seems to clear the Quick Reply box, damn.), not feeling like retyping it all. In short: I've been keeping a document with my thoughts on Blender, I'll clean it up and post it, I've already shared it with Metalliandy.

    What I want from Blender is more customisablity to replicate my workflow, one that's formed through years of using Silo (and Wings before that). Selection Highlighting, consistent Sticky Key functionality where it makes sense, Something like Voidworld's 'Streamline Tools' (which are themselves a lot like Wings' Advanced UI), Radial Menus, multi-selection mode (I will explain the difference between this and shift-clicking vert, edge and face in Blender)
    Blender already has a lot going for it, now I think I just need a few things to replicate my workflow. Its default keymap is silly, with its reliance on the first letter of the tool's name (which has extremely limited use, falls apart quickly with added tools), but that's fixable now Keymaps are no longer broken (I hear Brecht fixed them in 2.6, haven't been able to check).

    Greevar: I don't believe you'll be able to 'turn off' ngons. But Bmesh brings a lot more than just Ngons. It brings a more modern mesh system, basically. This video goes into detail on some of the things it enables: http://vimeo.com/6430167
  • equil
    where is the teapot primitive tool?
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    equil wrote: »
    where is the teapot primitive tool?

    Blender has a monkey head instead of a teapot. It serves the same purpose.
  • Mongrelman
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    Mongrelman polycounter lvl 18
    Is there a way to toggle the manipulator on an off? can you select a face then orient the manipulator to that? If they're not already in that would be handy.
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    Mongrelman wrote: »
    Is there a way to toggle the manipulator on an off? can you select a face then orient the manipulator to that? If they're not already in that would be handy.

    Ctrl+space hides the manipulator.
  • Dim
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    Dim polycounter lvl 10
    Then alt+space>Normal to align the widget to the face.
  • Michael Knubben
    Someone was asking for more pivot options, and I found someone's mockup from a while ago: http://www.flickr.com/photos/63231715@N00/2433645591/in/photostream

    What do you think?

    Edit: Also, speaking of moving things along normals, and local/global space, here's what I propose: http://www.wings3d.com/paulthepuzzles/aavectors.html and http://www.wings3d.com/paulthepuzzles/aamagnets.html

    Both these articles deal with Wings3d's tools for managing the axis and influence of your operation, whether it's scaling, rotating or moving. I may be biased, having made my first steps into 3d in Wings, but this has always seemed a very elegant solution to what may at times be a complicated situation.

    If I find a nice video on the subject, I will post that as well, as it's the sort of thing that makes more sense in motion.

    edit: Here's a good one on the magnets. As you can see, they're very similar to soft selection, but they offer control above and beyond what you can easily achieve with that.
    [ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoaWs1LVC98[/ame]

    And a shorter, simpler one, in which you can see someone playing around with masking, as well as the magnet curve and radius:
    [ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY060K2CHJ4[/ame]

    Aaand here's one for the vector operations (choosing the axis along which to execute an operation):
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-O8PB0njFo"]Pick Axis to Scale Along.avi - YouTube[/ame]
  • Michael Knubben
    As for Leilei's request concerning mirroring, here's how I'd like to see it done:

    Mirror Geometry: this command will mirror an object over a world-coordinates axis. If the object overlaps the axis, the overlapping portion will be deleted and replaced by the mirror. All vertices within the merge tolerance along the axis center will be merged.

    Calculate Symmetry: This command will attempt to find symmetrical components on an object by looking for vertices which should be mirrors of each other topologically, based on a central seam. If a single edge is selected when this function is called, the mirror seam will be determined by that edge. If there is no selection or anything other than a single edge is selected, the mirror seam will be determined automatically based on the axis selected in the options. Symmetry will also be enabled for the object. Once symmetry has been calculated and as long as it is enabled, edits made to one side of the model will be reflected in the other side. Unlike with instance mirroring, you can edit either side (or both sides at once) of the mesh. The shape will also subdivide properly and displacement painting will be mirrored as well. Newly created geometry added via commands such as Bevel and Extrude should also be mirrored properly automatically. Note that this command will not immediately move any geometry to make it visually symmetrical, (for that, use Restore Symmetry after calculating symmetry, or use Mirror Geometry) but future geometry edits will move affected geometry to make it symmetrical. This means that you can leave portions of your model asymmetrical even while you are working with symmetry. Just don't edit those parts while symmetry is enabled.

    Symmetry Mode: You can use this command to enable or disable symmetry on your model. If symmetry has not yet been calculated (see Calculate Symmetry), it will be calculated before being enabled. You may wish to temporarily disable symmetry in order to add asymmetrical details to your model.

    Restore Symmetry: If you have calculated symmetry (see Calculate Symmetry) for your model, you can use Restore Symmetry to force selected geometry to be symmetrical across the current mirror plane by moving any selected vertices to match their counterparts if necessary. (It is possible for your model to have symmetry assigned, but still have the vertices in asymmetrical places.) If you want to restore symmetry to only part of a model, you can select a portion in face, edge, or vertex mode and only that portion will be affected.

    (copied from Silo's manual)
    I've put the most relevant part in italics. This feature is enormously helpful, and feels borderline magical. It's probably witchcraft, which I'm not sure the GPL license allows.
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    MightyPea wrote: »
    Someone was asking for more pivot options, and I found someone's mockup from a while ago: http://www.flickr.com/photos/63231715@N00/2433645591/in/photostream

    What do you think?

    Edit: Also, speaking of moving things along normals, and local/global space, here's what I propose: http://www.wings3d.com/paulthepuzzles/aavectors.html and http://www.wings3d.com/paulthepuzzles/aamagnets.html

    Both these articles deal with Wings3d's tools for managing the axis and influence of your operation, whether it's scaling, rotating or moving. I may be biased, having made my first steps into 3d in Wings, but this has always seemed a very elegant solution to what may at times be a complicated situation.

    If I find a nice video on the subject, I will post that as well, as it's the sort of thing that makes more sense in motion.

    edit: Here's a good one on the magnets. As you can see, they're very similar to soft selection, but they offer control above and beyond what you can easily achieve with that.
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoaWs1LVC98

    And a shorter, simpler one, in which you can see someone playing around with masking, as well as the magnet curve and radius:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY060K2CHJ4

    Aaand here's one for the vector operations (choosing the axis along which to execute an operation):
    Pick Axis to Scale Along.avi - YouTube

    Blender already does the "magnet" stuff. It's called proportional editing (O and Alt+O for connected vertices only) and it works pretty much the same as what you're talking about and it uses a vector curve to control the falloff. Blender also can scale along any axis by pressing X,Y, or Z. You can also lock out an axis by pressing Shift and the axis you want to exclude (e.g. Shift+Z, which would scale on X and Y only).
  • Michael Knubben
    Since you didn't go into specifics, I will tell you what I know about Blender's proportional editing and its axis/pivot control, and you can hopefully tell me how to get closer to the described behaviour?

    You can select 'enabled' under proportional editing, as well as 'connected' which is like 'surface' in Wings. You can control its fallof/radius with the mousewheel. How can I select a vert to define the outer edge of the fallof in a precise manner? How can I mask faces from its influence? (hiding doesn't work, I've tried)

    With the vector operations, I know I can create a new axis based on my selection with ctrl+alt+space, and it's automatically selected. During the operation I press the shortcut key for the axis I want twice to get the local one*, the one I just marked. Then to set a pivot during the operation would (I think) involve switching snapping to vertices and turning it on(or holding ctrl), then clicking to place the pivot. Now, after this operation, your pivot is still in that location, and your transform orientation is still set to the custom one. Did I miss anything?

    It's mostly a matter of workflow in this case, but I hope you agree the video is more self-evident? It visualises any vectors involved, and it's limited to the tool being used, meaning your transform orientations don't pile up in the list with names such as Face.001 through .022

    *something which isn't immediately self-evident, as I don't know which axis corresponds to which in my custom selection. If the graphical representation worked with local transform orientations (MMB) that might help, but I don't believe that's possible?

    Also, thanks for mentioning it, but what in my post made you think my demands were limited to 'wanting to scale on the x, y and z axis'? (I realise you were pointing out the shortcut keys, but still... ;) )
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    MightyPea wrote: »
    Since you didn't go into specifics, I will tell you what I know about Blender's proportional editing and its axis/pivot control, and you can hopefully tell me how to get closer to the described behaviour?

    You can select 'enabled' under proportional editing, as well as 'connected' which is like 'surface' in Wings. You can control its fallof/radius with the mousewheel. How can I select a vert to define the outer edge of the fallof in a precise manner? How can I mask faces from its influence? (hiding doesn't work, I've tried)

    With the vector operations, I know I can create a new axis based on my selection with ctrl+alt+space, and it's automatically selected. During the operation I press the shortcut key for the axis I want twice to get the local one*, the one I just marked. Then to set a pivot during the operation would (I think) involve switching snapping to vertices and turning it on(or holding ctrl), then clicking to place the pivot. Now, after this operation, your pivot is still in that location, and your transform orientation is still set to the custom one. Did I miss anything?

    It's mostly a matter of workflow in this case, but I hope you agree the video is more self-evident? It visualises any vectors involved, and it's limited to the tool being used, meaning your transform orientations don't pile up in the list with names such as Face.001 through .022

    *something which isn't immediately self-evident, as I don't know which axis corresponds to which in my custom selection. If the graphical representation worked with local transform orientations (MMB) that might help, but I don't believe that's possible?

    Also, thanks for mentioning it, but what in my post made you think my demands were limited to 'wanting to scale on the x, y and z axis'? (I realise you were pointing out the shortcut keys, but still... ;) )


    "Aaand here's one for the vector operations (choosing the axis along which to execute an operation):"

    That's where I got the idea that you wanted to scale on an axis. I didn't realize you meant non-standard axes. Yes, being able to control the axis of operation so that it can be done somewhere between axes rather than an absolute X,Y, or Z would be very useful.
  • Dim
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    Dim polycounter lvl 10
    MightyPea wrote: »
    meaning your transform orientations don't pile up in the list with names such as Face.001 through .022

    If you look in the operator tab after you create a custom orientation, there's an option to overwrite previous ones, rather than create a new one.
    MightyPea wrote: »
    something which isn't immediately self-evident, as I don't know which axis corresponds to which in my custom selection. If the graphical representation worked with local transform orientations (MMB) that might help, but I don't believe that's possible?

    This is entirely possible, look here: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1449468&postcount=31

    I typically keep my widgets visible at all times, even though I never use them, just so I know which axis I'm transforming around.
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    i forget the command but there was a way to save custom orientations to in that same menu.

    ya control+alt+spacebar, by default, saves the current widget orientation, for later use on any selection.

    would also be nice if it could pop up a rotate widget around the current widget so you can changes it's orientation that way too.
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    passerby wrote: »
    i forget the command but there was a way to save custom orientations to in that same menu.

    ya control+alt+spacebar, by default, saves the current widget orientation, for later use on any selection.

    Yes, but can you reorient the manipulator manually (i.e. rotate) to create a custom orientation? That would be highly useful.
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    greevar wrote: »
    Yes, but can you reorient the manipulator manually (i.e. rotate) to create a custom orientation? That would be highly useful.

    dont use blender much so that is what i found sofar, haven't seen a way to manually rotate the manipulator aside from rotate a other object and saveing the orientation.
  • kat
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    kat polycounter lvl 17
    greevar wrote: »
    Yes, but can you reorient the manipulator manually (i.e. rotate) to create a custom orientation? That would be highly useful.
    Individual elements can be rotated by specific values via the Properties panel ("N") - "Rotatation" X/Y/Z. Or similar from "Object" properties (button with the orange cube on it). Also hold "Ctrl" whilst rotating to snap.

    I've never done this myself but it might be possible to create a new "Custom Property" with a custom rotation value that can then be reused. This only appears available from the main properties panels (on the right) though.
  • Dim
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    Dim polycounter lvl 10
    Typically I'll just use an empty if I have a specific orientation I want to get. It takes very little time to create and delete (2 keyboard shortcuts), so I can't imagine them making a system that would actually be faster.
  • Michael Knubben
    Dim: I might be missing something, but that doesn't seem to work with the MMB axis selection at all, which is what I asked for. It's a graphical way of selecting the axis, rather than pressing x, y or z, and I much prefer it. The downside to it just seems to be that you can't access the local axis that way.
  • Vrav
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    Vrav polycounter lvl 11
    What MightyPea is describing here is something I also regret not having. Since the MMB axis selection is always locked to global, you have to use the manipulator to shift something around on a local or custom axis... way less awesome than grab + mmb.

    I think it'd be cool to snap the ortho view to a custom axis, then have view-based MMB transform locks... I do most of my tweaking in 3D ortho view, so it feels like more view-oriented precision would be cool... without using manipulators.
  • kat
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    kat polycounter lvl 17
    If I'm understanding what you're after correctly, the widget can do it to a limited extent but it's a bit tricky to control because it depends on the orientation of the scene and how the mouse moves relative to that.

    - Set an "Orientation" then LMB a widget pointer to initiate an action. MMB hold (not click) and drag the selection about, it *should* move relative to the previously set orientation ("Normal" for example).
    - With the same Orientation set, LMB a pointer then MMB click, this causes the action to toggle between, and 'lock' to, the global/local axis, ignoring the previously set orientation.

    It's slightly backwards (bit clumsy?) to the way you're wanting (being able to switch axis in the middle of an action?) but if you know that MMB+click is perma-locked to Global/Local, then all you do is set your general editing to something other than that before hand and do one-or-the-other of the above when working to get your 'custom' action.
  • Mongrelman
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    Mongrelman polycounter lvl 18
    Dim wrote: »
    If you look in the operator tab after you create a custom orientation, there's an option to overwrite previous ones, rather than create a new one.

    I've just had a go with this and whenever I create a new custom orientation it just adds it to the list and unchecks that box, so I end up with a stack of custom ones instead of the same one being overwritten.
  • Michael Knubben
    What Mongrelman says! Same thing with the 'release to confirm' toggle that appears there with grab etc., I just can't figure out how to set that as a default, and I'd quite like to.
    Kat: I'll check out your suggestion later, thanks.

    edit: I figured it out, you set this in user prefs>input. search for the command, and its options are listed after you click its little arrow.
  • Vrav
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    Vrav polycounter lvl 11
    'Confirm on Release' is something I haven't quite figured out myself. For example, I have a key bound to transform.edge_slide which, when tapped, causes the edge to slide and you can hit lmb to confirm or rmb to cancel. Whether or not I check the 'Confirm on Release' box in this shortcut's info box, that's how it behaves. It'd be nice to just have a sticky behaviour where you hold down the button to slide and releasing ceases that behaviour, and that's what I'd expect from 'Confirm on Release'.

    As for custom orientations, they always auto-name to Face for example, replacing the same one. 'Overwrite previous' in the transform.create_orientation shortcut works for me. Also, you can always bind another key combo to transform.delete_orientation if you wind up with too many for some reason.
  • Michael Knubben
    Vrav: I figured it out after I posted (edited it in, you might've missed it), you need to set this in your keymap. Just find the tool, check the relevant box in there and save your user prefs.

    The sticky key behaviour you're asking for is something I'd like to be able to set globally, though. Or just as a part of a redesign of Blender's shortcuts. It's something I've grown to rely on very much, through the use of Silo.
  • Michael Knubben
    9skulls wrote: »
    Let's say you have one basic quad, and you go to edit mode, select 2 opposite vertices and press F to create an edge between the two. You'd think that the quad is now divided into 2 tris since that is what it looks like, right? But no. It doesn't. It's still just a one big quad with one crossing edge that doesn't really do any good. So why can't Blender be wise enough to split the quad for me, if I was to "cut" the quad with a new edge like that?

    Bmesh has this, luckily! It's what's called 'connect' in most other software, which 'subdivide' can aproximate, but not in the case you mention (at least I think not). Here's a picture of it working in Bmesh: http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2184/bmeshy.png
  • Shadownami92
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    Shadownami92 polycounter lvl 7
    How about a sort of Tri-Count tally somewhere? Would be nice, and maybe even have it count the triangles of mirrored objects from the Mirror Modifier?

    That last part isn't too necessary but it is a little tedious to triangulate all of my mesh pieces just to find how how many triangles I have.
  • Andreas
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    Andreas polycounter lvl 11
    CTRL T, CTRL Z is too tedious? You should see what Max users have to go through!
  • Frankie
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    Frankie polycounter lvl 20
    Also no one really cares about tri count :D
  • passerby
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    passerby polycounter lvl 12
    Andreas wrote: »
    CTRL T, CTRL Z is too tedious? You should see what Max users have to go through!

    max, maya and most other apps can show you the poly count in polys or tris in the hud though, so there is no need for any step to see that info
  • Michael Knubben
    Andreas: Glance up? I think I can manage.
  • .morph3us
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    .morph3us polycounter lvl 14
    i'm hope i am not too late to the party.
    one thing i really enjoy at max is the instant undo.

    you change an object, a spinner, whatever and see its not going the way you want it?
    just rightclick while still having the left mouse button down and the modifier/object will reset to its stage it had before you changed that particular thing.
  • Mongrelman
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    Mongrelman polycounter lvl 18
    Hmm, the right click undo works for me. I'm still using 2.57 if that is relevant.
  • greevar
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    greevar polycounter lvl 6
    Blender tells you up top how many faces there are in a scene. If you want the object's poly count, just select it and enter edit mode.

    Edit: ah, I see. Faces, not triangles.
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