What do you mean, "charge whatever they want" ? The health care monthly contribution is agreed on regularly and always very clearly stated on the payrolls of any country using it. It's such a tiny thing to pay really!
What do you mean, "charge whatever they want" ? The health care monthly contribution is agreed on regularly and always very clearly stated on the payrolls of any country using it. It's such a tiny thing to pay really!
So you are saying that paying 12E per month to get free healthcare, and 109E a month to later get free retirement money ... is a bad thing ???
I much rather go through medical bankruptcy, thank you very much. All so I can really pack a punch into the bottom like of for profit healthcare system.
Just imagine how much healthcare the US could provide with the profit part of the for profit healthcare system... Why the cost of healthcare might be on par with what you're talking about...
Hey guys, if America goes the way of Rome, we have space in Norway
I'm from Canada, and honestly I've been thinking about it. We're turning into mini America up here... not liking it at all. To live somewhere less dominated by these crazy conservative mindsets sounds soooo awesome.
Sorry if I expressed myself improperly. By free I meant, "in return". That's just semantics. "Free" as in, americans being so happy to spend their tax return on a bi flat screen TV even tho thats their own money they are getting back
I tend to believe that such a common pool system is simply... efficient. Imagine the amount of people never taking care of their retirement options here in the US, and getting screwed up in the end, having to take one more job, and so on. Having a part of your retirement provided as a return to your "cotisation" (that's how we call health care and retirement contribution in FR) is just so straightforward!
And again - it is by no means a perfect system. There ARE improvement to be found, and even more innovative solutions to be invented. But for that, you gotta do the first step, and I am very worried by how late the US are on that subject.
BTW. The idea that competition creates innovation and therefore provides the best products is very naive, I think. Don't forget the race for profit that comes with it. Think of the food industry here in the US, the cheap and processed disgusting food products leading to bad health conditions, HFCS and lack of education turning a whole nation obese... Sometimes I wish that the food industry was under a partial communist (!) structure. Yeah, I wouldn't mind contributing a small amount of money every month, to get simple, quality-controlled healthy food in return. Instead of wondering why that chicken I just had tasted so fucked up, or having to pay a premium for NATURAL food in stores.
I would say that it all boils down to the controls put in place. For instance, if my "food system" was in place, it would only work if it was controlled regularly by independent labs running their own tests. Thats the problem with the FDA in the US- not running independent tests, and instead trusting the results from the manufacturers themselves... "Tapped" was such a amazing piece of documentary on that subject.
Super complex issues, but also very interesting. Again, the only way to go ahead is, in my opinion, by taking the first step!
To me, the problem with "voting with dollars" is that most people have no clue, and would be more than happy to drink more CocaCola than water (especially if it is cheaper!) ""IT HAS ELECTROLYTES!!" hehe. That's perfect for the huge corps that are in the food business for profit.
Yeah, but it is run behind closed doors. The main difference with a state-run system, is that it is by nature as transparent as possible thanks to independent controls. This has been mentioned earlier - the more public something is, the more strictly it is controlled, and the more quality you get out of it.
I totally approve of independent local economy, thats a given. It's a very sad thing to see it disappear, and I hope the situation will change.
As a matter of fact it is reappearing, again in europe. I heard than in some cities, people have been gathering to pool together "food baskets for the week", made of a variety of quality fresh vegetables and food. The contents always changes, you cant tell in advance what you'll get if you participate in it, but youre sure to get good stuff. A good example of localized community-based ressource sharing, I think.
I would love it so much if the energy spent over pointles birth certificate debates was spent on more important fundamental matters, really.
I mean for instance. you cite shitty food, and obesity. if you look back to the pre 1950's you see there being more smaller businesses, and smaller communities with more competition. since then we've seen expansion and growth of corporations and their takeover over entire sectors. when you see a mcdonalds sprout up on nearly every corner, and in effect collectivize industries, is that not a form of communitarianism? its still collectivized. the only difference is instead of the state running the monopoly, its run by the private sector.
Out of curiosity, how would you put a stop to this from happening without using more control from the government / public at large?
It seems that generally a capitalist system leads to these giant corporations because success builds upon success. Without regulations in place it is natural that a few businesses see enough success that they are able to brute force out a lot of the smaller businesses. Which is why nearer to the start of such a system there would be more diversity and competition, but as it grows older a small amount of companies will see great success and grow giant, and others will not be able to compete. So without giving the public as a whole the ability to have some control over that, it seems inevitable.
Also, I don't think I'd see communitarianism in this kind of thing. Just because these companies become so large they become dominant in a community does not imply that they have any responsibility to the public of that community. Their major motives can remain selfish (growth / profit). The benefit to a more publicly run system is that the motives of growth / profit are replaced with emphasis on the well being of the community as a whole. Which is especially important for sectors of society that can affect the overall wellbeing of that society. So it may not be important to publically control some things (like entertainment) but it can be very important to do so for other things that are integral to the continuation of the society (such as healthcare or transportation).
So yeah, I'm quite curious as to what you would do to achieve your ideal system (the 1950's example) in a politically conservative society. My take is that it is impossible to do without public control, which implies something more socialist.
If you talk to any small business owner now (especially in the united states) you will find that there is so much regulation and red tape on small businesses
um.. not really. The US is a pretty nice place to run a business. Granted I'd love some of those Canadian subsidies but we all know they won't last.
believe me I have no faith in either party. I have no doubt that things would be exactly the same with a republican in office. ok you're basically saying hes tried to shrink the military. yet they invade Libya like it aint no thang. doesnt make sense.
Right now, we're just long range air support for a European engagement, not the same as an all out invasion, ie Iraq & Afghanistan.
McCain said there should be US troops in Libya, that's messed up, that screams prolonged engagement and not what the rebels want. Is that what the republicans want, to keep burning cash we don't have farting around in the middle east?
I bring up the military cuts because there is a lot of waste there and it consumes 1/3 of our budget and a lot of that goes to keeping our cold war clunkers running. A leaner military that has relevant hardware for today's tasks is much better for everyone. BUT a lot of jobs are created by the military and there are a lot in congress who want to cut waste but don't want to cut their waste...
you say let the free markets run wild like its a bad thing.
If we could trust them it wouldn't be a bad thing at all. Or if they owned their mistakes and dealt with the consequences of their insanely poor judgement or if they where the only people effected by that then I would be for letting them do their thing.
What I don't like is that they have this idea that they can privatize the profits and socialize the risks. Fuck off, you gamble you lose. I want laws in place so you don't fuck up my life with your bad choices. Suddenly when you want to try and claw your money back, your a socialist commie who's trying to hold bussiness back. Fuck no we where taken and guess what mother fuckers you're paying for it just as much as I am. No tax breaks to the bastards who robbed us blind. No cuts to healthcare system that makes a clinic in Botswanna look like a beach resort spa.
When their tax bill hurts them as much as it hurts me, then we can talk about fair. Personally they have a lot of making up to do... They've enjoyed the lowest tax rates and the highest income increases in recent history. I'm willing to pay a little more in taxes to shore up medicare, social security and keep our country rolling and it would be a pretty big pinch for me to pay more in taxes, but I would do it. Why do rich people think they are above civic and social responsibility?
Oh but they create jobs! Then get your asses in gear. Trickle down economics failed during Regan and it didn't work when Bush and Clinton tried it. They've had 30 years of constant showering of money to make jobs. Rich people are rich not because they spend but because they horde... Giving something to a horder and expecting them to give that way is stupid. Plus we're in no position to offer tax breaks to anyone on any level, the GOP needs to get that stupid idea out of their head, thats just spending more money we don't have and more failed policies.
he didnt wake up and say that. Goldman Sachs, Bank of America and of JP Morgan told him thru their campaign donations that mind you McCain was also paid in.
I'm not happy about the bail outs but you can't pin the cause or the "cure" on Obama, both where conceived before he was in office. The crisis was not his fault. The stimulus plan to dig us out of the hole and healthcare those where his. If you're going to get your panties in a twist, get them twisted over the right things. This BS that Obama caused the crisis is horse shit tar and feather deflection.
"I don't have to own it if I can make everyone else think it was someone else" Grow up GOP, you fucked up now tell me how you plan to fix it better than Obama can instead of telling me his plan stinks and he's a commie who eats babies.
Also the stimulus plan was largely agreed upon by everyone at the time. There are also signs that when it started to work, other factors kicked in to slow things down. If I was a cynical guy, I would point the finger back at republicans and their corporate sponsors who really don't want to see a recovery on Obama's watch. I take that back they want it to recover just enough that when/if they swoop into power they can take credit.
all I'll say is the country is being looted. what we're seeing is a faster version of the fall of Rome. The federal reserve creates massive bubbles that explode all the while keeping interest rates disgustingly low for years, and destroying the value of the dollar. I hear no talk about those issues from either party.
I agree, and they aren't talking about it because both parties have their hands dirty and can't easily point the finger at the other camp without incriminating themselves. I am glad that Obama is looking into the Oil speculation markets. There was strong proof during the last gas crunch that a lot of wall street money flowed into those markets because it was a money maker at a time that stocks where tanking. The talk of regulation brought prices back down and everyone forgot. Now... greed has reared its ugly head again and we're getting worked over, if nothing comes of this, we've all been let down.
Again... free markets left up to their own devices make a select few very rich, very quickly. Get in get the deal done, who cares about what happens tomorrow we'll both be stinkin rich. It happened in 1920 when no rules where in place, it happened in the 1980s when the rules where lax, it happened in the 1990s when the rules where relaxed and it happened in 2003-2007 when no one was watching. So yea letting the free markets ride sucks... there needs to be some kind of assurance that I won't be run down when they drive 200mph all coked up down the sidewalk again.
Replies
Some people just don't get the concept of helping others while getting help at the same time.
Just imagine how much healthcare the US could provide with the profit part of the for profit healthcare system... Why the cost of healthcare might be on par with what you're talking about...
I'm from Canada, and honestly I've been thinking about it. We're turning into mini America up here... not liking it at all. To live somewhere less dominated by these crazy conservative mindsets sounds soooo awesome.
I tend to believe that such a common pool system is simply... efficient. Imagine the amount of people never taking care of their retirement options here in the US, and getting screwed up in the end, having to take one more job, and so on. Having a part of your retirement provided as a return to your "cotisation" (that's how we call health care and retirement contribution in FR) is just so straightforward!
And again - it is by no means a perfect system. There ARE improvement to be found, and even more innovative solutions to be invented. But for that, you gotta do the first step, and I am very worried by how late the US are on that subject.
BTW. The idea that competition creates innovation and therefore provides the best products is very naive, I think. Don't forget the race for profit that comes with it. Think of the food industry here in the US, the cheap and processed disgusting food products leading to bad health conditions, HFCS and lack of education turning a whole nation obese... Sometimes I wish that the food industry was under a partial communist (!) structure. Yeah, I wouldn't mind contributing a small amount of money every month, to get simple, quality-controlled healthy food in return. Instead of wondering why that chicken I just had tasted so fucked up, or having to pay a premium for NATURAL food in stores.
But I guess I am an evil red deep inside, then ?
Super complex issues, but also very interesting. Again, the only way to go ahead is, in my opinion, by taking the first step!
To me, the problem with "voting with dollars" is that most people have no clue, and would be more than happy to drink more CocaCola than water (especially if it is cheaper!) ""IT HAS ELECTROLYTES!!" hehe. That's perfect for the huge corps that are in the food business for profit.
I totally approve of independent local economy, thats a given. It's a very sad thing to see it disappear, and I hope the situation will change.
As a matter of fact it is reappearing, again in europe. I heard than in some cities, people have been gathering to pool together "food baskets for the week", made of a variety of quality fresh vegetables and food. The contents always changes, you cant tell in advance what you'll get if you participate in it, but youre sure to get good stuff. A good example of localized community-based ressource sharing, I think.
I would love it so much if the energy spent over pointles birth certificate debates was spent on more important fundamental matters, really.
Out of curiosity, how would you put a stop to this from happening without using more control from the government / public at large?
It seems that generally a capitalist system leads to these giant corporations because success builds upon success. Without regulations in place it is natural that a few businesses see enough success that they are able to brute force out a lot of the smaller businesses. Which is why nearer to the start of such a system there would be more diversity and competition, but as it grows older a small amount of companies will see great success and grow giant, and others will not be able to compete. So without giving the public as a whole the ability to have some control over that, it seems inevitable.
Also, I don't think I'd see communitarianism in this kind of thing. Just because these companies become so large they become dominant in a community does not imply that they have any responsibility to the public of that community. Their major motives can remain selfish (growth / profit). The benefit to a more publicly run system is that the motives of growth / profit are replaced with emphasis on the well being of the community as a whole. Which is especially important for sectors of society that can affect the overall wellbeing of that society. So it may not be important to publically control some things (like entertainment) but it can be very important to do so for other things that are integral to the continuation of the society (such as healthcare or transportation).
So yeah, I'm quite curious as to what you would do to achieve your ideal system (the 1950's example) in a politically conservative society. My take is that it is impossible to do without public control, which implies something more socialist.
um.. not really. The US is a pretty nice place to run a business. Granted I'd love some of those Canadian subsidies but we all know they won't last.
McCain said there should be US troops in Libya, that's messed up, that screams prolonged engagement and not what the rebels want. Is that what the republicans want, to keep burning cash we don't have farting around in the middle east?
I bring up the military cuts because there is a lot of waste there and it consumes 1/3 of our budget and a lot of that goes to keeping our cold war clunkers running. A leaner military that has relevant hardware for today's tasks is much better for everyone. BUT a lot of jobs are created by the military and there are a lot in congress who want to cut waste but don't want to cut their waste...
http://www.npr.org/2011/04/30/135872891/a-radical-plan-to-cut-military-spending
If we could trust them it wouldn't be a bad thing at all. Or if they owned their mistakes and dealt with the consequences of their insanely poor judgement or if they where the only people effected by that then I would be for letting them do their thing.
What I don't like is that they have this idea that they can privatize the profits and socialize the risks. Fuck off, you gamble you lose. I want laws in place so you don't fuck up my life with your bad choices. Suddenly when you want to try and claw your money back, your a socialist commie who's trying to hold bussiness back. Fuck no we where taken and guess what mother fuckers you're paying for it just as much as I am. No tax breaks to the bastards who robbed us blind. No cuts to healthcare system that makes a clinic in Botswanna look like a beach resort spa.
When their tax bill hurts them as much as it hurts me, then we can talk about fair. Personally they have a lot of making up to do... They've enjoyed the lowest tax rates and the highest income increases in recent history. I'm willing to pay a little more in taxes to shore up medicare, social security and keep our country rolling and it would be a pretty big pinch for me to pay more in taxes, but I would do it. Why do rich people think they are above civic and social responsibility?
Oh but they create jobs! Then get your asses in gear. Trickle down economics failed during Regan and it didn't work when Bush and Clinton tried it. They've had 30 years of constant showering of money to make jobs. Rich people are rich not because they spend but because they horde... Giving something to a horder and expecting them to give that way is stupid. Plus we're in no position to offer tax breaks to anyone on any level, the GOP needs to get that stupid idea out of their head, thats just spending more money we don't have and more failed policies.
I'm not happy about the bail outs but you can't pin the cause or the "cure" on Obama, both where conceived before he was in office. The crisis was not his fault. The stimulus plan to dig us out of the hole and healthcare those where his. If you're going to get your panties in a twist, get them twisted over the right things. This BS that Obama caused the crisis is horse shit tar and feather deflection.
"I don't have to own it if I can make everyone else think it was someone else" Grow up GOP, you fucked up now tell me how you plan to fix it better than Obama can instead of telling me his plan stinks and he's a commie who eats babies.
Also the stimulus plan was largely agreed upon by everyone at the time. There are also signs that when it started to work, other factors kicked in to slow things down. If I was a cynical guy, I would point the finger back at republicans and their corporate sponsors who really don't want to see a recovery on Obama's watch. I take that back they want it to recover just enough that when/if they swoop into power they can take credit.
I agree, and they aren't talking about it because both parties have their hands dirty and can't easily point the finger at the other camp without incriminating themselves. I am glad that Obama is looking into the Oil speculation markets. There was strong proof during the last gas crunch that a lot of wall street money flowed into those markets because it was a money maker at a time that stocks where tanking. The talk of regulation brought prices back down and everyone forgot. Now... greed has reared its ugly head again and we're getting worked over, if nothing comes of this, we've all been let down.
Again... free markets left up to their own devices make a select few very rich, very quickly. Get in get the deal done, who cares about what happens tomorrow we'll both be stinkin rich. It happened in 1920 when no rules where in place, it happened in the 1980s when the rules where lax, it happened in the 1990s when the rules where relaxed and it happened in 2003-2007 when no one was watching. So yea letting the free markets ride sucks... there needs to be some kind of assurance that I won't be run down when they drive 200mph all coked up down the sidewalk again.