I'm pretty sure he's never claimed that he creates original art.
Personally, I wouldn't be too surprised if in the future characters were started by much more complex base meshes, with the unique character features being added on top by artists. This will, of course, not prevent them from being 'orginal'. But - much like with speedtree - it will rely entirely on how much time the studio wants to invest in making use of artists. Some studios will inevitably be fine with what ships in this mythological character package.
As to original themes, as was pointed out with that painting... I think that's almost too subject to discuss to any real extent. What one considers cliche and trite might have incredible novelty to someone else.
It's fully possible to do that already, but as proven you'll have a hard time maintaining quality if stuff isn't made inhouse, like packages of art, or anything outsourced, depending on the visual importance of the asset in question, characters usually have a high importance rating in a game.
Here's on the other discussed scenario:
In the future when people can conjure holodecks out of the imagination of their mind, it'll most likely end up looking like a photo-realistic second-life world, it wont be pretty.
Most people don't have the trained mind to be creative or create stuff that previously didn't exist, heck some artists are limited by only being able to create from a picture.
These guys can conjure the most realistic nazi vs raptor battles in the holodecks since the computer would know a nazi and raptor looks, but the real interesting worlds and characters in games didn't exist, even master chief or marcus phoenix were created out of imagination from a massive amount of references gathered through the profession experience of a bunch of artists.
Tools change, but the artistic mind of what looks good, and the creative side of making something that does not exist will always be needed.
And:
How did OP check what basemesh people used on their character other than the few cases he posted progession from start to make the assumption, most often you'll never know what they used.
How did OP check what basemesh people used on their character other than the few cases he posted progession from start to make the assumption, most often you'll never know what they used.
I saw works in progress, hehe
/edit: Yes, in the end it doesn't matter.
Umm, I'm pretty sure he registered here and pretty much straight away dissed every other artist on here...
I just want to see his efforts, thats all. :thumbup:
Please state the quotes indicating his dis-es? I am pretty sure when he started this thread, he just wanted to know if everyone else feels that the originality of art works has been dying over time.
Last I checked the Forum code of conduct and policies. I didnt see anywhere written that you must be an artist to register for this forum and many who are here havent even posted their work or are artists to begin with.
Also I didnt read anywhere in that conduct about person must post his art to prove his arts and then he can ask such questions. Like I said and you have failed to do that is to cool your effin mind and think through what the OT was all about.
Asking someone to post his art just because he asked one question to you all "artists" is kinda putting that someone in discouraging isolated position dont you think?
hm dunno it also depends a lot on where ıomeen comes from, here in germany artist usually is fancy pants painter/sculptor/performance artist - who either starves to be free and do his art or cashes in tons of money for his paintings/sculptures/whatever.
For my job descriptions isn't even one english word without the term artist in it, im a 3d Grafiker, which is a 3d graphics artist in english, it could be translated as production or commercial artist as well, but still there is the word artist in it.
Artist in german is Künstler, if i'd call myself 3d Künstler people would react entirely differently on what i do because here its just not the same - i don't claim to be an artist _here_ but in english there is just no other way to express what i am doing.
Anyways i'm using pretty much the same basemesh on every character i do, be it a toony airborn character or the more realistic approach on my comicon entry or even the sheep, same basemesh with minor tweaks if needed - it totally doesn't matter, heck i didn't even create that basemesh myself its the mudbox baseman with some changes i needed for my work, i also worked quite some time from Arsh's basemesh, did my own before and afterwards and worked from the baseman a lot - it totally doesn't influence the final result at all - but well what do i know, i'm not an artist i'm a graphics dude working for games and movies
Please state the quotes indicating his dis-es? I am pretty sure when he started this thread, he just wanted to know if everyone else feels that the originality of art works has been dying over time.
Last I checked the Forum code of conduct and policies. I didnt see anywhere written that you must be an artist to register for this forum and many who are here havent even posted their work or are artists to begin with.
Also I didnt read anywhere in that conduct about person must post his art to prove his arts and then he can ask such questions. Like I said and you have failed to do that is to cool your effin mind and think through what the OT was all about.
Asking someone to post his art just because he asked one question to you all "artists" is kinda putting that someone in discouraging isolated position dont you think?
anyways, moving back to the topic.
Why is it so unreasonable to express curiosity and request to see what a person - who evidently has very high standards of originality - has made?
I don't get why you get so damn defensive about people asking another user for artwork.. O.o
hm dunno it also depends a lot on where ıomeen comes from, here in germany artist usually is fancy pants painter/sculptor/performance artist - who either starves to be free and do his art or cashes in tons of money for his paintings/sculptures/whatever.
For my job descriptions isn't even one english word without the term artist in it, im a 3d Grafiker, which is a 3d graphics artist in english, it could be translated as production or commercial artist as well, but still there is the word artist in it.
Artist in german is Künstler, if i'd call myself 3d Künstler people would react entirely differently on what i do because here its just not the same - i don't claim to be an artist _here_ but in english there is just no other way to express what i am doing.
Anyways i'm using pretty much the same basemesh on every character i do be it a toony airborn character or the more realistic approach on my comicon entry or even the sheep, same basemesh with minor tweaks if needed - it totally doesn't matter, heck i didn't even create that basemesh myself its the mudbox baseman with some changes i needed for my work, i also worked quite some time from Arsh's basemesh, did my own before and afterwards and worked from the baseman a lot - it totally doesn't influence the final result at all - but well what do i know, i'm not an artist i'm a graphics dude working for games and movies
Same here, in sweden the word for artist is konstnär, which has a way more fancy artsy meaning than the "3d grafiker" which would be my title, same spelling as yours.
But yeah, it helps seperate the fact that I'm making products and cool looking stuff, not art :P
Would anyone call a fashion designers or graphics designers (logotypes, magazine layouts etc) artists in the same sense?
Would anyone call a fashion designers or graphics designers (logotypes, magazine layouts etc) artists in the same sense?
As a graphic designer, I personally don't see myself as an artist, nor do any of the other designers i know, it's not about making pretty pictures, it's about communication first and for most. Though as an illustrator also, that I can call myself an artist.
Commercial/professional/paid work - I am not an artist, personal work - I am an artist.
For me art is about you, what you want and feel etc.
Design is about your target market, someone other than yourself. It's about communication and portrayal, you're given a brief and you have to execute it following the requirements, sometimes you have room for originality, sometimes not. But originality for originality sakes in this doesn't always work, if it can't be justified (particularly in graphic design) it doesn't belong.
As a graphic designer, I personally don't see myself as an artist, nor do any of the other designers i know, it's not about making pretty pictures, it's about communication first and for most. Though as an illustrator also, that I can call myself an artist.
Commercial/professional/paid work - I am not an artist, personal work - I am an artist.
For me art is about you, what you want and feel etc.
Design is about your target market, someone other than yourself. It's about communication and portrayal, you're given a brief and you have to execute it following the requirements, sometimes you have room for originality, sometimes not. But originality for originality sakes in this doesn't always work, if it can't be justified (particularly in graphic design) it doesn't belong.
Note, that the above is around graphic design.
Yeah, I simplified it a bit by saying "making it look nice"
I guess it's up to everyone if they want to see themself as an artist or not.
I guess it's up to everyone if they want to see themself as an artist or not.
Just throwing this in here: Why do we use the word "artist" then? If it describes something different for each of us, then how can we even use it?
Don't get me wrong everybody has his own opinion, and that's good.
because it is the common use of this word in english? as stated before - there is quite a bit of a difference between artists and commercial artists in other languages, i am neither a designer nor an illustrator in most cases. So what am i, job wise spoken? I'm a 3d artist, its just what my job is called in english - of course you can ask this question, but it's somewhat useless as this development has been started decades, maybe even centuries ago - i don't know but it is how its normally used - live with it
i am not an artist i am a 3d artist, or graphics artist or game artist or whatever you'd like to call me, i guess the difference in english is the word in front of the "artist" part that makes the difference?
because it is the common use of this word in english? as stated before - there is quite a bit of a difference between artists and commercial artists in other languages, i am neither a designer nor an illustrator in most cases. So what am i, job wise spoken? I'm a 3d artist, its just what my job is called in english - of course you can ask this question, but it's somewhat useless as this development has been started decades, maybe even centuries ago - i don't know but it is how its normally used - live with it
i am not an artist i am a 3d artist, or graphics artist or game artist or whatever you'd like to call me, i guess the difference in english is the word in front of the "artist" part that makes the difference?
Yes, you are right
So what's original then? Do we even need to discuss about this? Do we even need to think about things at all? I'm just pushing the discussion. Truth is, that there will never be enough words.
lol, nice to see that the thread has finally somewhat arrived at its original topic.
But on the subject of the word 'artist,' I agree with what has been said mostly in the last couple posts.
I am American, and I've always felt that the word artist is thrown around a little too loosely here. I like how there are delineations between a commercial artist and a 'traditional' artist in other cultures. I've done some illustrations for books (like, educational text books), and I would in no way consider them art. I was given perimeters , and I worked around them. So without much opportunity for creative expansion or personal expression, its hard for me to classify anything as art. Now I've yet to work professionally in the game industry, but I will say that I gain a lot more personal satisfaction from working on game-related stuff than I do from other media, so I guess that qualifies more as art for me personally. But again, I haven't done it professionally, so who knows, it may be the same way.
On the subject of originality... I don't think there really is such a thing. Everything is derived to some degree. Everything that we do in life plays off of past experiences or builds upon collective knowledge, so how can you dub anything you do 'original' as you're only building upon humanity's pile. For me, the 'art' is in how the artist does play off of the collective in order to tap into some psychological vein when working his/her craft. The beauty of it, is in the head game.
Call me a bleak jackass, but thats just how i've always felt. With the subject of 'art' I guess it all boils down to the "-in the eye of the beholder" line, so really, a rule can't be set for it and...
Why is it so unreasonable to express curiosity and request to see what a person - who evidently has very high standards of originality - has made?
I don't get why you get so damn defensive about people asking another user for artwork.. O.o
Because my little curious friend. Demanding one's art to be accepted in some community makes one feel small and possibly insulted. It makes one feel that he does not belong here as well. Especially when he's just starting out and trying to adjust himself in the community.
You have to assume one thing straight. many people who newly join this community are still learning to be some what artists and many of them are willing to start learning to be an artist, and many of them are just interested in becoming one.
That also means that you are in no position to ask one's work if he/she just wants start some sort of discussion, unless you are lending him a job. It also makes someone think that you are about to judge him based on his level of arts which is seriously not acceptable in my books.
EDIT: Would you not talk to him if he's no artist at all? If you wont, wouldnt take make you a selfish being? Oh wait, do not answer that because I had experience with you and few other Pcers in the past, regarding the same thing.(Apologies for this persona attack but he asked for it)
But you felt it appropriate to post someone else's hard work and call that 'kitch'. Which to me certainly sounds like a 'diss'.
I clearly stated that it's my opinion about the image and I wanted to know yours and I accept yours. I also said, that I liked this image a lot. It's even saved in my folder for inspiration. Do you know the definition of kitsch? I suggest you to read something about it, if you don't. There are even kitsch-artists out there. Jeff Koons for example. Except, that he makes it on purpose. I don't see anything offensive about the term "Kitsch". I'm sorry, if you did.
/edit
I even made kitschy images by myself. I enjoy it!
It's impossible to be original all the time.
Obviously we arent gonna discuss this I doubt anyone would with this format.
We are. Please read the thread. If you don't understand something, then go away or ask politely. I would send you this as a PM, but you would post it here. Stay away, if you don't get it. I wont write you a "How to understand this thread for Dummys". But you could look at my first post in this thread. I added a few things. Now give us a statement on the topic or leave. Or stay and ruin everything. And stop fighting, nobody is fighting here.
I just dont see the point in this thread is all. Art is subjective, and means that what I call art, anyone could dismiss. Theres no end game to this, no conclusion, just personal opinion. Not like a debate where theres 2 sides but unlimited possible outcomes. Its like asking a 1000 people what love is?
Why not just make some art, try to be as original as you can and have fun with it? If we all tried to make the most original work ever we would go insane and output a model every 3 years.
That's why we discuss. To deepen our understanding. We exchange each others opinions and statements. I wondered why there are even words like "Kitsch" "Art" or "Originality" if it's not used to communicate.
Because my little curious friend. Demanding one's art to be accepted in some community makes one feel small and possibly insulted. It makes one feel that he does not belong here as well. Especially when he's just starting out and trying to adjust himself in the community.
You have to assume one thing straight. many people who newly join this community are still learning to be some what artists and many of them are willing to start learning to be an artist, and many of them are just interested in becoming one.
That also means that you are in no position to ask one's work if he/she just wants start some sort of discussion, unless you are lending him a job. It also makes someone think that you are about to judge him based on his level of arts which is seriously not acceptable in my books.
EDIT: Would you not talk to him if he's no artist at all? If you wont, wouldnt take make you a selfish being? Oh wait, do not answer that because I had experience with you and few other Pcers in the past, regarding the same thing.(Apologies for this persona attack but he asked for it)
Whoa. This is some serious flame bait. However, I will tell you I didnt stop talking to you because of artisic levels of any kind. Reason PM'ed to you, since you absolutely have to know..
If you already have your mind made up about all this why make a thread to discuss it. Seems like you have 3 forts up on any point someone makes. Everything you post is very vague. Your not even posting a real arguement just saying mis-screwed statements. That leads to questions.
Agreed.
Looks like your trying to backtrack a little iomeen. Maybe next time you think of starting a thread that's going to achieve nothing but insult an awful lot of hard working people, don't?
That's why we discuss. To deepen our understanding. We exchange each others opinions and statements. I wondered why there are even words like "Kitsch" "Art" or "Originality" if it's not used to communicate.
edit
I'm not sure about this point. It must be more.
Like people said before in this thread: Art has a different meaning in a lot of languages.
Its just too vague, next you will wanna know whats the meaning of life then? why does god let children die from poverty? why are we here? why does that guy keep stealing my parking space?
You need to condense this all down. maybe ask what makes a good character design or environment? making original art seems like a rhetorical question to me is all. And then why do we have these words, such as art, kitsch blah blah? its ridiculous.
first was why is everyone using the same base meshes? then its whats original art? then its whats art? then its what does art even mean? you are de evolving pokemon style
starting to sounds like a blog to me is all and theres hardly any useful information here.
I know if I dont see the point then dont post here but come on, this is getting silly.
This comes up now and then, people kind of obsessed with being original. There's no way to deny the influence of those who came before you, this documentary really explains this nicely:
Well, throwing back to a page or so ago, the reason there will be a need for artists is to create things that haven't been created before and, even beyond that, to make it "art." You speak of a time when we have a huge library of photo realistic assets. Barring the fact that capitalism exists and libraries like that would probably be largely private, think about the art of illustration as an example. I think its principles apply to any form of art. There's a point beyond photo realism where art lies. To quote a personal hero artist, Andrew Loomis:
Today with color photography and the excellence of the camera going perhaps further in that respect, we are surfeited with realism par excellence, until mere lifelike representation is not enough. There is no other course than somehow to go beyond obvious fact to pertinent fact, to characterization, to the emotional and dramatic, to selection and taste, the simplification, subordination, and accentuation.
This is a from the introduction to the book Figure Drawing For All It's Worth. Loomis goes on to talk about how art is your personality coming through the page and how every artist needs to find their own style and way of presenting the things they see.
I think this idea is very pertinent to this conversation, both about what art is and how the future will hold up with advancing technology and simple passage of time.
And beyond just realism, I'm sure there will always be art to be made of things that don't exist and have not existed before, which will always be original, and the artist behind it will only make it more so (hopefully).
Replies
It's fully possible to do that already, but as proven you'll have a hard time maintaining quality if stuff isn't made inhouse, like packages of art, or anything outsourced, depending on the visual importance of the asset in question, characters usually have a high importance rating in a game.
Here's on the other discussed scenario:
In the future when people can conjure holodecks out of the imagination of their mind, it'll most likely end up looking like a photo-realistic second-life world, it wont be pretty.
Most people don't have the trained mind to be creative or create stuff that previously didn't exist, heck some artists are limited by only being able to create from a picture.
These guys can conjure the most realistic nazi vs raptor battles in the holodecks since the computer would know a nazi and raptor looks, but the real interesting worlds and characters in games didn't exist, even master chief or marcus phoenix were created out of imagination from a massive amount of references gathered through the profession experience of a bunch of artists.
Tools change, but the artistic mind of what looks good, and the creative side of making something that does not exist will always be needed.
And:
How did OP check what basemesh people used on their character other than the few cases he posted progession from start to make the assumption, most often you'll never know what they used.
/edit: Yes, in the end it doesn't matter.
I didn't diss anyone and I registered, because I'm interested. Please read my last post.
/edit: I also edited my last post: I meant "I never said that art isn't original." not "I never said that art is original."
Please state the quotes indicating his dis-es? I am pretty sure when he started this thread, he just wanted to know if everyone else feels that the originality of art works has been dying over time.
Last I checked the Forum code of conduct and policies. I didnt see anywhere written that you must be an artist to register for this forum and many who are here havent even posted their work or are artists to begin with.
Also I didnt read anywhere in that conduct about person must post his art to prove his arts and then he can ask such questions. Like I said and you have failed to do that is to cool your effin mind and think through what the OT was all about.
Asking someone to post his art just because he asked one question to you all "artists" is kinda putting that someone in discouraging isolated position dont you think?
anyways, moving back to the topic.
For my job descriptions isn't even one english word without the term artist in it, im a 3d Grafiker, which is a 3d graphics artist in english, it could be translated as production or commercial artist as well, but still there is the word artist in it.
Artist in german is Künstler, if i'd call myself 3d Künstler people would react entirely differently on what i do because here its just not the same - i don't claim to be an artist _here_ but in english there is just no other way to express what i am doing.
Anyways i'm using pretty much the same basemesh on every character i do, be it a toony airborn character or the more realistic approach on my comicon entry or even the sheep, same basemesh with minor tweaks if needed - it totally doesn't matter, heck i didn't even create that basemesh myself its the mudbox baseman with some changes i needed for my work, i also worked quite some time from Arsh's basemesh, did my own before and afterwards and worked from the baseman a lot - it totally doesn't influence the final result at all - but well what do i know, i'm not an artist i'm a graphics dude working for games and movies
Why is it so unreasonable to express curiosity and request to see what a person - who evidently has very high standards of originality - has made?
I don't get why you get so damn defensive about people asking another user for artwork.. O.o
Same here, in sweden the word for artist is konstnär, which has a way more fancy artsy meaning than the "3d grafiker" which would be my title, same spelling as yours.
But yeah, it helps seperate the fact that I'm making products and cool looking stuff, not art :P
Would anyone call a fashion designers or graphics designers (logotypes, magazine layouts etc) artists in the same sense?
As a graphic designer, I personally don't see myself as an artist, nor do any of the other designers i know, it's not about making pretty pictures, it's about communication first and for most. Though as an illustrator also, that I can call myself an artist.
Commercial/professional/paid work - I am not an artist, personal work - I am an artist.
For me art is about you, what you want and feel etc.
Design is about your target market, someone other than yourself. It's about communication and portrayal, you're given a brief and you have to execute it following the requirements, sometimes you have room for originality, sometimes not. But originality for originality sakes in this doesn't always work, if it can't be justified (particularly in graphic design) it doesn't belong.
Note, that the above is around graphic design.
Yeah, I simplified it a bit by saying "making it look nice"
I guess it's up to everyone if they want to see themself as an artist or not.
Just throwing this in here: Why do we use the word "artist" then? If it describes something different for each of us, then how can we even use it?
Don't get me wrong everybody has his own opinion, and that's good.
i am not an artist i am a 3d artist, or graphics artist or game artist or whatever you'd like to call me, i guess the difference in english is the word in front of the "artist" part that makes the difference?
Yes, you are right
So what's original then?
But on the subject of the word 'artist,' I agree with what has been said mostly in the last couple posts.
I am American, and I've always felt that the word artist is thrown around a little too loosely here. I like how there are delineations between a commercial artist and a 'traditional' artist in other cultures. I've done some illustrations for books (like, educational text books), and I would in no way consider them art. I was given perimeters , and I worked around them. So without much opportunity for creative expansion or personal expression, its hard for me to classify anything as art. Now I've yet to work professionally in the game industry, but I will say that I gain a lot more personal satisfaction from working on game-related stuff than I do from other media, so I guess that qualifies more as art for me personally. But again, I haven't done it professionally, so who knows, it may be the same way.
On the subject of originality... I don't think there really is such a thing. Everything is derived to some degree. Everything that we do in life plays off of past experiences or builds upon collective knowledge, so how can you dub anything you do 'original' as you're only building upon humanity's pile. For me, the 'art' is in how the artist does play off of the collective in order to tap into some psychological vein when working his/her craft. The beauty of it, is in the head game.
Call me a bleak jackass, but thats just how i've always felt. With the subject of 'art' I guess it all boils down to the "-in the eye of the beholder" line, so really, a rule can't be set for it and...
[ame]
Because my little curious friend. Demanding one's art to be accepted in some community makes one feel small and possibly insulted. It makes one feel that he does not belong here as well. Especially when he's just starting out and trying to adjust himself in the community.
You have to assume one thing straight. many people who newly join this community are still learning to be some what artists and many of them are willing to start learning to be an artist, and many of them are just interested in becoming one.
That also means that you are in no position to ask one's work if he/she just wants start some sort of discussion, unless you are lending him a job. It also makes someone think that you are about to judge him based on his level of arts which is seriously not acceptable in my books.
EDIT: Would you not talk to him if he's no artist at all? If you wont, wouldnt take make you a selfish being? Oh wait, do not answer that because I had experience with you and few other Pcers in the past, regarding the same thing.(Apologies for this persona attack but he asked for it)
But you felt it appropriate to post someone else's hard work and call that 'kitch'. Which to me certainly sounds like a 'diss'.
I clearly stated that it's my opinion about the image and I wanted to know yours and I accept yours. I also said, that I liked this image a lot. It's even saved in my folder for inspiration. Do you know the definition of kitsch? I suggest you to read something about it, if you don't. There are even kitsch-artists out there. Jeff Koons for example. Except, that he makes it on purpose. I don't see anything offensive about the term "Kitsch". I'm sorry, if you did.
/edit
I even made kitschy images by myself. I enjoy it!
It's impossible to be original all the time.
We are. Please read the thread. If you don't understand something, then go away or ask politely. I would send you this as a PM, but you would post it here. Stay away, if you don't get it. I wont write you a "How to understand this thread for Dummys". But you could look at my first post in this thread. I added a few things. Now give us a statement on the topic or leave. Or stay and ruin everything. And stop fighting, nobody is fighting here.
That's simply not true like a lot of the things you say. Now smile a little bit and keep a peaceful mind!
Why not just make some art, try to be as original as you can and have fun with it? If we all tried to make the most original work ever we would go insane and output a model every 3 years.
edit I'm not sure about this point. It must be more.
Like people said before in this thread: Art has a different meaning in a lot of languages.
Whoa. This is some serious flame bait. However, I will tell you I didnt stop talking to you because of artisic levels of any kind. Reason PM'ed to you, since you absolutely have to know..
Agreed.
Looks like your trying to backtrack a little iomeen. Maybe next time you think of starting a thread that's going to achieve nothing but insult an awful lot of hard working people, don't?
Its just too vague, next you will wanna know whats the meaning of life then? why does god let children die from poverty? why are we here? why does that guy keep stealing my parking space?
You need to condense this all down. maybe ask what makes a good character design or environment? making original art seems like a rhetorical question to me is all. And then why do we have these words, such as art, kitsch blah blah? its ridiculous.
first was why is everyone using the same base meshes? then its whats original art? then its whats art? then its what does art even mean? you are de evolving pokemon style
starting to sounds like a blog to me is all and theres hardly any useful information here.
I know if I dont see the point then dont post here but come on, this is getting silly.
Everything is a Remix
This is a from the introduction to the book Figure Drawing For All It's Worth. Loomis goes on to talk about how art is your personality coming through the page and how every artist needs to find their own style and way of presenting the things they see.
I think this idea is very pertinent to this conversation, both about what art is and how the future will hold up with advancing technology and simple passage of time.
And beyond just realism, I'm sure there will always be art to be made of things that don't exist and have not existed before, which will always be original, and the artist behind it will only make it more so (hopefully).