Original art
I wonder why all the base meshes look the same lately. Does ZBrush come with a humanoid base mesh?
Soon there will be finished heads anybody can manipulate, like a character in a game and most people will call that art.
/edit:
To generate less confusion in this thread, I'd like to add a view thinks to this post.
What I want to bring up in this discussion, is the question where the borders to originality and kitsch are. In fact there are no borders, but everybody has a personal border where he considers something as "kitsch" or as "wow, that's original!" Please read my post about Kitsch.
I also want to discuss how far automation will go in the future. Will there be characters like in a game, you can manipulate, just to make work faster? Would it still be possible to make original things with that?
Finally I want to add one last thing: Ofcourse it's impossible to talk about these things based on works posted here. Many are made for commercial use with deadlines and limits. But I am talking about art in general. Not about your art! So don't be offended.
Soon there will be finished heads anybody can manipulate, like a character in a game and most people will call that art.
/edit:
To generate less confusion in this thread, I'd like to add a view thinks to this post.
What I want to bring up in this discussion, is the question where the borders to originality and kitsch are. In fact there are no borders, but everybody has a personal border where he considers something as "kitsch" or as "wow, that's original!" Please read my post about Kitsch.
I also want to discuss how far automation will go in the future. Will there be characters like in a game, you can manipulate, just to make work faster? Would it still be possible to make original things with that?
Finally I want to add one last thing: Ofcourse it's impossible to talk about these things based on works posted here. Many are made for commercial use with deadlines and limits. But I am talking about art in general. Not about your art! So don't be offended.
Replies
You shouldn't take that literal. Ofcourse I meant "a lot base meshes look the same." What I mean is that they are actually using the same meshes to build characters from.
/edit: We have slogan generators, we have name generators, we have story generators, we even have humanoid model generators. This will increase until everything is possible for everyone.
And no, most good artists use their own base-meshes, not the zbrush defaults or such.
You are right, most good artists use their own meshes. But I didn't talk about artists. I am talking about the view of the people about art and what it may become, if everybody can call himself an artist. Good artists use their own meshes. Most people use ZBrush defaults. And most people are no good artists.
When that day comes, I hope holodecks exist.
Hehe,
I'm sure there will be an "original ideas" generator too.
Its called Poser...just look on Deviant Art.
Oh, I totally forgot about Poser. But Poser doesn't bring that much features to get close to a real artist. Yet.
DeviantArt is a good example. I wonder where the borders are. Are there even borders or will we all become the same?
There will always be people who want something new, something you can't just find somewhere. And there will always be people who appreciate a genuine original. Additionally, your average person just doesn't have any eye for what looks even halfway decent. You know all those HORRIBLE tattoo websites you can find? The scary thing about them is that people take pictures of them actually trying to show them off. In their heads, that's awesome looking stuff.
Yeah I'm not worried.
Well, I'm not that sure.... Imagine the distant future like you say, we are at photorealistic level in gameart, can't really distinguish real from cg (visually i'm not talking about animation here which is way more complex), every game asset is based or completely ripped off real world material (digitalized environnment props and such).
What an artist (by that I mean an "industry artist"), can bring more to that ?
Eventually the "real artists" (I don't like saying that but it's these little groups scattered everywhere that does creation without bothering about mainstream targets) will do "casual games", since the only thing they can bring forward is transformed reality (remember the photorealistic part) that will probably be, judging by the industry's evolution, judged by the masses as "children games" like most of wii game that use stylisation as an alternative path of "realism".
Now I'm not sure since it's masse's money that interest the corporation, that artists will be that necessary to produce a game... A small group maybe but certainly not as large as now and in the near future.
You know I totally agree machines can't replace artists, but they can remplace "gifted copyists" pretty well when the technological evolution is sufficient. Remember painting and photography ! Yes they both coexists, but compare the number of amateur and pro protograph publishing nice photos on the net these days, and the number of gifted painters...
This is good, thank you. Everything that's now original will change, though, and that's good. People will aways try to find new ways and create new things. But this is just an optimistic view, like mine is pessimistic. I wonder what's more realistic. Or I just can't see it, because I am an average person?
Who is right in our world? The majority or the minority?
I always get sceptical when I say to somebody "this thing looks wrong, because of..." and most likely the answer I get is "but it looks good to me and to most people".
Wow. I'd never rely on that statement that the majority is right, reason being. If the majority points to a pencil stroke on canvas and call it an art and minority would say that "that is just a pencil stroke." I'd probably use a my common sense and side with minority.
as for the core topic of this thread:
This evolution to ease in terms of art is also demanding more. Like take pre Zbrush times for example. It was really hard to create such animation models that were close to realism. Though there were few softwares that helped out but the demand for realistic game characters back then was not so high. Now you think of it Zbrush was a breakout in the Game / 3d Animation industry that made things a hell lot easier for the artist but that also brought the productivity demand to high.
Bottom line, the more it'll get easier the higher the demand from consumers it'll have.
Me neither, but I get sceptical because it includes a lot more. For example turn that around: If the majority points at a pencil stroke and says "even a kid can do that" and the minority says it's art.
There are a lot of very abstract works, that are working exactly on that topic in a different way and I think they are very good, even though many people who call themselves artist would shake their heads.
I see,
Sorry, I didn't read your post properly.
(I don't know the artist, use tineye.com if you want to know it)
I think this is Kitsch. What do you guys think? Is it original? Is it art?
first step: create that level of art
second step: maybe create modern art or anything else, if not fall back to step one.
Skip step one:
charlatan
Also what Pior said.
//Rant on: In addition: Calling well executed stuff 'kitsch' for what reason ever, for example the subject calling something kitsch not beeing able to produce that level of realism/lighting/mood is just typical //Rant Off
Discuss.
Digi art is no different to any other form of art, it takes skill and disipline to master.
Mecha pict? i'd call that art.
it's defiantly art.
And you think you are right in this case?
However I was reffering to Karl Marx about originality in that case and just wanted to bring up some counter-argument. If you guys take internet discussion that serious, I'm really worried of a flame war instead of discussing an interesting topic.
/another edit Yes, me too.
Actually art(-work/-ificial) is to create something, so I'm not sure where the borders are. Some people say that Kitsch is not art. If we worry about doing original things all the time, we would make nothing at all, because it would become too frustrating. Also we couldn't enjoy much, because "new" things are very rare out there.
Well. Welcome to Polycount bro.
In some cases you cant tell artists that they are right or wrong because they are doing whats given to them by their studios they work at. They have to meet certain deadlines and provide certain level of detailed 3d models, so I dont blame them using anything like zbrush, or ready-made skeletal mesh etc.
But for others its a good thing to discuss about even if they post lame gifs and laugh at the thread to discourage the gravity of discussion instead of discussing it.
That's the point where art turns commercial and the borders become blurred for a lot of people.
And yes, I know that we need to survive somehow. I sell my skills as well.
/edit
Actually I was planning to discuss with you guys what you think is new and what's original, in our opinions, about the pic I posted. I thought this is a pretty good example, because it's representing our personal borders very well.
As a matter of fact if your opinion is nicely articulated and justified, you will have a hard time starting a flame war here. This place is more professional than it looks.
As for pissing everybody off - again, its a context thing. The last piece you posted and that you referred to as kitsch based on your own opinion of it, has all the qualities of a typical pre-production painting done for an ambitious movie or game project set in a flashy fantasy far future. As such, its value is in the establishing of mood, lighting, material properties and visual design language for a specific entertainment/story telling piece.
Such a picture could be used (very effectively) by an art director to make sure that all the departments he or she leads attain their visual target. (are the surfaces reflective enough ? and so on). As such, this is an excellent piece of production art, hitting all the right marks and executed perfectly. Reducing it to 'kitsch' is just a personal opinion that you express ; it has no relevance to whether or not this is art or not, and wether it is good or not. Speed Racer anyone ?
I think the reason why this thread might annoy people is not because of your opinions being deranging or 'against the mainstream' ; it is mostly because your basemesh comment showed a lack of knowledge of the subject matter (no, basemeshes are not what makes most zbrush work looking similar ; similar stuff happens because of the artists lack of originality or ideas, not because of a given tool!) and it seems like your are heading in a similar direction with your comment on that space piece.
In the end, such discussions also tend to annoy artists because they always end up to be quite sterile. I think that on this forum, everybody has a better time giving constructive criticism on pieces of artwork and helping each other, rather than discussing if a piece of imagery is real good art or not forever
In short : I'd love to see your take on a beautiful space painting. I am not saying "if you cant do it, dont criticize it", because that would be stupid. Quite the opposite - it seems like you have a definitive taste on things (since you took the time to start this thread) so now I am curious!
My take in searching for a painting on the web or my take in making a picture by myself? I think I'm a way too lazy bastard to do that for this thread.
I like the picture I posted a lot, but for me it's not qualified to be original.
Now, to make it clear what's my point of view: Originality is the opposite of Kitsch.
Kitsch is what's made to be beautiful by imitating things without any other reason and adding things, that don't relate to the topic. Real beauty happens, if we reduce everything to the meaning of an artwork. And originality happens, if we generate controlled evolution, if we bring up new thoughts. What's original and what's not always depends of what we already know. This means that a lot more things are original to a child than to an adult.
Kitsch is very pleasant to most people, including me, because it's easy to think about it. We already know most of a kitschy pictures content and know exactly what we enjoy there. "I like these shapes, they fit my taste." And taste is, what we experienced and what got shaped in the past by influences we have chosen to like. Maybe nature. But nature isn't artifical and that's why it can't be Kitsch. It's reduced to it's purpose and not to be beautiful to humans.
If we make a painting we should be able to explain why we use the medium and why we paint what we paint. Everything should fit together as much as possible. The more it fits, the more harmony it contains, the better it's made.
/edit
I divide an image into 3 different aspects of beauty:
1. What it teaches
2. How good it's technically made
3. If it's visually harmonic
If it's almost perfect in one aspect, it's a masterpiece in it.
If all the aspects are working together, it's a masterpiece over all.
Haha, right. I'm sitting here with a dictionary and my head is probably going to explode soon if I continue writing today.
If that's the case, then let me remind everyone again that there ARE NO original ideas left. Every story to ever exist has already be written. I don't remember the authors that famously stated this (shame on me), but the first said there was only ever ONE story, and later another author changed it to, I think, 7 different stories that could possibly be written. Take out the word 'author' and replace it with artist.
Originality nowadays, and for thousands of years, is taking what is no longer original and adding something different, changing up the formula, the details, the characters, whatever. So, if something that involves futuristic space marines seems unoriginal, you'd be right. But, if it's executed in a way that hasn't been seen before, using one's quality skills and talent, then why can't it be called 'original art'? And if you think it can't be, then stop using the word completely, because you'll never find anything you could call original again.
All artists have been influenced by the artists that came before them. No one ever picked up a pencil, a brush, a keyboard, and made a masterpiece without having been influenced, in some capacity, by their predecessors.
If I'm totally off the mark on this being a discussion on originality in art, then just ignore this post :P I just wanted to be clear on this point in case it is.
But that being said, theres tons of games out there that push the envelope and dont have silly publishers or producers ruining all the creative fun. such as Vanquish, Enslaved, LBP2, darksiders etc. Designwise you can argue that they are generic, go over there punch/shoot that, go over there punch/shoot that. But thats like explaining football/soccer as being middle aged blokes kicking a ball at each other while stuffing there pockets with huge amounts of cash. Its the added spectacle that makes these things work.
If you are talking about personal art on these boards though then I whole heartedly disagree with you. Theres alot more interesting art on these boards than you will ever see on the shelves. yes theres some generic stuff, but there always will be a soldier here and there being made.
It also seems like suicide saying on a game art forum that game art is unoriginal and boring when Im pretty sure we all see game art as a hugely creative and artistic merit. The zbrush thing I dont think you know alot about. I dont see hardly anyone using stock basemeshes from zbrush as its just not good practice, if they use their own basemeshes alot or kit bash then thats a good time saver and is necessary in production, if the artists work is always the same then thats not the base meshes fault, thats the artists fault for not switching it up enough or editing their basemesh accordingly.
end of the day though, 'Art is Subjective' and we can try our best to be as creative as possible in our designs, but there will always be someone out there who doesnt like it.
When originality is your starting point you will often find you either get nowhere and the job doesnt get done because there are too many possibilities or alternatively you create something that only a small minority appreciate. Both of those results are unnacceptable for a game artist.
Originality is a great thing and sometimes it happens because of the type of project you are working on but you as an artist are never fully going to be in control of wether somethig you do is original or not. That is most likely decided by the games press and art community way after the art is done so you may never know until that point wether your work was original or not.
Instead, state your opinion as politely as you can manage and then stop posting in the thread.
Remember that all you are saying is simply your opinion, not fact. Using a square as a start for a model is not the same as using a basemesh in the context of this conversation. Surely you understand this? He pointed to an illustration to illustrate a point. No where did he confuse the roles. He wanted to point out that, while being well made and interesting, he finds the content and subject matter to be unoriginal. This is key to his conversation.
You can think it makes no sense. That is fine. You've already made that abundantly clear. But don't be an ass and troll a thread that others might want to contribute to.
If you have an issue with a thread:
A. Do not read it/post in it
B. Contact a mod
It is not your personal responsibility to shit all over it, no matter how silly you may think it is.
People complaining that someone who makes generic looking elvs or orcs not being 'original' kinda misses out on the bigger picture of all things 'art'.
Yes it is.
Thank you soo much for clearing out the thread.
...
I'm pretty sure he's never claimed that he creates original art.
Personally, I wouldn't be too surprised if in the future characters were started by much more complex base meshes, with the unique character features being added on top by artists. This will, of course, not prevent them from being 'orginal'. But - much like with speedtree - it will rely entirely on how much time the studio wants to invest in making use of artists. Some studios will inevitably be fine with what ships in this mythological character package.
As to original themes, as was pointed out with that painting... I think that's almost too subject to discuss to any real extent. What one considers cliche and trite might have incredible novelty to someone else.
Are you guys soo stubbornly determined to dis this new PCer around? He didnt say anything about his art being original. He just spoke of it in general.
Well then, stop asking stupid questions!!
Stupid questions such as actually posting art on an art board instead of vague discussions on what is and is not original art? How could that possibly be a dis?
Plus in my oppinion, saying that base meshes look alike, is like complaining that people use the same brand of paint. Or that that the box primitive is used excessively as a starting point for hardsurface.
On the whole kitsch vs. originality thing. Why can't people just make the things they enjoy? If someone likes to make spaceships, let them. If someone else makes transvestites juggling polar bears, fine. The originality of the piece is purely the conceptual choice and shouldnt really matter at all. What we could do is discuss aestethics and technique instead.
Umm, I'm pretty sure he registered here and pretty much straight away dissed every other artist on here...
I just want to see his efforts, thats all. :thumbup:
I keep my art out of this discussion and I think it's not necessary to post it, it's not even necessary to be an artist to talk about art and originality.
I never said that art isn't original. I only brought up the question "What makes art original?" I've always been aware of the fact, that there is original art, and not so original art. What I wanted to discuss is where the borders are. In fact there are no borders, but everybody has a personal image of originality and Kitsch, a personal border. Or else it wouldn't be necessary to invent these two words "Originality" and "Kitsch". Please read my post about my view of Kitsch [here].
We also already talked about deadlines, and that it's necessary to use a base mesh. Ofcourse it is! I am just interested how far automation will go in the future.
I will add an edit to my first post in this thread.