everything LRoy said is correct, but again we're talking about Dothraki... guys who even on horse get up close and personal with their curved blades. they dislike using spears, let alone lances.
now, a cavalry charge was doomed to fail anyway as there was a wall behind the Unsullied, but out in the open, a lance armed knight cavalry would tear them up no question.
anyway, we know from the books exactly how and why the unsullied aren't the army Dany will use.
C'mon, it's common knowledge by now that Daenarys will be taking on Westeros with the cast of 'My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic'.
TBH I don't care enough anymore about GoT to be angry about reading spoilers online. The show is more consistently good that the books, the books can really vary wildly in quality. This is the third pretty big spoiler I've heard about the end of ADwD, I really advice people who care to stay away from GoT related facebook posts etc.
TBH I don't care enough anymore about GoT to be angry about reading spoilers online. The show is more consistently good that the books, the books can really vary wildly in quality. This is the third pretty big spoiler I've heard about the end of ADwD, I really advice people who care to stay away from GoT related facebook posts etc.
good for you. the rest of us probably don't want people posting what happens
it is def a good idea to just stay out of any GoT discussion in general though haha.
The sword fight at the beginning was a high point for me. Nice to see Jon Snow finally getting some action later too, haha. Robb executing that dude was a pretty sweet scene. I enjoyed the episode, really excited to see where things would go.
Once again, some of my favorite scenes involved the Lannisters. As awful as they are (as people) they are easily some of the most interesting characters. Bath-time with Brienne was great, tea-time with Lady Olenna, and dinner with Tywin were all delightful. Lord Tywin once again proves what a terrible father he is. Though I don't quite understand Circe's objection to marrying Loras Tyrell. (especially after some of the other events in this weeks episode) I can't help but feel that Loras would be a much easier husband for her to deal with than Robert Baratheon.
Once again, some of my favorite scenes involved the Lannisters. As awful as they are (as people) they are easily some of the most interesting characters. Bath-time with Brienne was great, tea-time with Lady Olenna, and dinner with Tywin were all delightful. Lord Tywin once again proves what a terrible father he is. Though I don't quite understand Circe's objection to marrying Loras Tyrell. (especially after some of the other events in this weeks episode) I can't help but feel that Loras would be a much easier husband for her to deal with than Robert Baratheon.
It seemed to me, like she finally wanted to have the chance to choose for herself. I found it funny though, watching her smug face change, when she was ordered to marry him. Especially since I got the impression that she was the one that made her father aware of the arrangement with Sansa. Had she kept her mouth shut, she wouldn't be pushed into another marriage.
I just bought the first book and am about a quarter of the way through. I like the book and the show equally, and as long as I treat them as separate entities I'm not disappointed by any differences between the two.
That being said, I really enjoyed this new episode, the last one was more action packed, but I enjoy the character exposition more at times, I like learning about why people are the way they are, and understanding more about the relationships/linkages between characters. Of all the storylines going on right now, I think I'm the most interested to find out what happens with Jon Snow.
Especially since I got the impression that she was the one that made her father aware of the arrangement with Sansa. Had she kept her mouth shut, she wouldn't be pushed into another marriage.
Actually, I'm pretty sure she would have been pushed into another marriage no matter what. It was always her father's intention to re-marry her. If anything, her plotting only accelerated the process.
One of Circe's defining attributes is just how selfish and abitious she is. She wants to rule, to have all the power and respect. She isn't resistant because she wants to choose her own husband. She is resistant because she hates the idea of anyone having power over her. She wants to be able to rule and command the realm in her own right, by her own authority. It galls her that her current "power" is borrowed from the men around her.
If she were a bit more clever, and less self-centered, she would realize that being Loras Tyrell's "beard" would actually be a pretty good arangement for her. Loras is not particularly cruel or unkind. He would most likely not attempt to hold her back or refuse her. And as long as she was smart enough to keep some attractive young men around the household staff, Loras would probably leave her be most of the time. It would be a much better arrangement for her than being married to Robert.
For those of you who read the books, I'm curious about the girl in the cell.
Was her face really supposed to look like some kind of burn damage? Looked more like some kind of scales to me.
No, it was supposed to look like scales. It's a disease that turns portions of a person's body to stone (not really, stone, but hard dry and can't move it) and has the look of scales. This girl was born with it.
High point was the sword fight, amazing, and probably pretty dangerous, fair play to both the actors. I don't know why I find Clegane getting hooded and dragged around so comical but my god is it funny.
I felt the episode dragged on eventually, got a little bored towards the end.
Actually, I'm pretty sure she would have been pushed into another marriage no matter what. It was always her father's intention to re-marry her. If anything, her plotting only accelerated the process.
Oh, I agree. Her father wants to stop the rumors of her screwing her brother.
So it was guaranteed he'd push her into something again, rather than let her continue banging her bro in secrecy. I just think she didn't have the foresight to realize it.
Women in this world can be married even if they're old. Marriage here is about political and financial power, love has no role to play.
Marrying Cersei (pay attention to the spelling, guys to Loras would strengthen the alliance between houses Lannister and Tyrell. This would more or less guarantee that the families would not fight each other in the future, and come to each other's aid when needed.
Examples: Tullys helping out Rob Stark because Cat was married to Ned.
Drogo swearing to conquer Westeros because of an attack on his wife (and unborn son).
Everyone trying to marry some kid to Sansa to get closer to claiming the North.
Of course there are counter examples too: the entire army of the Vale sits idly because Lisa Tully refuses to help her sister. And of course the Lannisters conspired to basically murder Robert, despite the marriage (although I'm sure Tywin knows who's son Joffrey really is).
I just think she didn't have the foresight to realize it.
Well, yes! The maddening thing about Circe for me is that she thinks she's a lot more clever than she actually is. She's all ego, with very little competence to back it up. This makes her the perfect foil for her brother Tyrion, who has to constantly deal with being trod on by the world around him, but who is fiercely competent, capable, and clever.
Tyrion is the little nerd underdog that everyone spits on, but is constantly behind the scenes fixing everything. Circe is the vapid, venal prom queen who has grown up having everyone worship her and can't deal with anything that doesn't conform to her idea of what ought to be.
Oh, I agree. Her father wants to stop the rumors of her screwing her brother.
Banging Jaime is just an extra reason, but even if there was nothing between them, Cersei would still be used as a tool, a bargaining chip basically, to advance Tywin's political goals.
Not sure if it was mentioned in the show, but Tywin originally wanted to wed Cersei to Rhaegar Targaryen, before Robert's rebellion. But the mad King Aerys was jealous of his popularity and decided to mock him by marrying Rhaegar to the daughter of the Prince of Dorne.
It was also the reason why he admitted Jaime into the Kingsguard - those knights forsake all possessions and swear celibacy, so this way he robbed Tywin of his heir too.
No wonder that the old Lannister did not help him out during the rebellion, but decided to sack King's Landing and have his lackeys murder Rhaegar's children, with Jaime killing Aerys himself. He really pays his debts
Circe is the vapid, venal prom queen who has grown up having everyone worship her and can't deal with anything that doesn't conform to her idea of what ought to be.
She's also been deeply hurt because she was promised to marry the Dragon Prince, Rhaegar, whom pretty much everyone thought to be the best man alive (including even Ned). Instead she ended up with the drunk whoremonger Robert...
The scene with Jaime and Brienne in the bathtub was incredible. I am actually starting to grow quite fond of Jaime as a character... Never thought I'd see the day!
Marrying Cersei (pay attention to the spelling, guys to Loras would strengthen the alliance between houses Lannister and Tyrell.
It's actually more than just that. I don't know how they are planning on handling the character of Loras going forward in the series, but in the books he is the youngest of three sons. As such, he actually has very few prospects in terms of inheritance. His older brothers will most likely get their own lands and titles, but he doesn't have nearly as many options.
Given the fact that Tywin seems dead-set on screwing Tyrion out of his rightful inheritance, and Jaime seems determined to remain in the Kingsguard, whoever marries Circe will be the most likely candidate to become Tywin Lannister's heir-apparant, and the next Lord of Casterly Rock. (and by default, one of the richest and most powerful men in all of Westeros) An offer that sweet is something that the Tyrells probably wouldn't be able to refuse, and would be a solid trade-off for losing out on Sansa Stark. That Tywin is a shrewd fellow.
She's also been deeply hurt because she was promised to marry the Dragon Prince, Rhaegar, whom pretty much everyone thought to be the best man alive (including even Ned). Instead she ended up with the drunk whoremonger Robert...
You're not going to be able to convince me to feel sympathy for Circe. I've read the books, and I know exactly what she is. Boo hoo, she was forced to marry one king instead of another. She's lived her entire life in extravegant luxury, and openly despises those who aren't in her elevated station. She actively takes advantage of her own children in order to wield greater political power.
Tywin is a stone-cold, cruel, calculating asshole. But at least he doesn't actually expect anyone to love him for it. And at least he's actually good at being a stone-cold, cruel, calculating asshole. Circe has all the ego and appetite, but none of the competence. All of her relatives are ruthless, but they also have redeeming qualities that allow the audience or readers to empathize with them. Tywin is cold, but over time you come to realize that he was born into a difficult situation and had to step up for the sake of his family. Jaime seems like a vain, arrogant warmongerer, but eventually starts to grow through some of the hardships he has to face. Tyrion is one of the most likable and sympathetic characters in the story from the very beginning. Circe has none of this. She's almost as unlikable as Joffrey. (who is the very soul of malevolence)
I'm fine with having more Circe on the screen. As a character she is fascinating to watch. But you watch her for the same reason that you can't turn away from a car crash.
The scene with Jaime and Brienne in the bathtub was incredible. I am actually starting to grow quite fond of Jaime as a character... Never thought I'd see the day!
Yeah its a fairly important scene in the books too. Finding out that Westeros mock him for the very thing that saved thousands of people... took bravery, not cowardice.
The scene with Jaime and Brienne in the bathtub was incredible. I am actually starting to grow quite fond of Jaime as a character... Never thought I'd see the day!
seriously man, my favorite scene in the show so far. really, really well done.
just managed to catch up to the show (watched the last 4 episodes in one go).
the show is getting better, but... i dunno, it really feels like they cram too much into too small a space of time. and it's detrimental.
i had a conversation with someone who's fallen in love with the show, but they couldn't tell me anything about:
who is Rhaegar Targeryen?
why was Robert Beratheon king?
what was his insurgency all about?
why the words "winter is coming" are so important?
the connection between the dragons being born, and magic returning to the world (see the lightning lord and his revival as evidence of that).
and much more... i think Vargatom pointed out in the last couple of pages of this thread, the significance of Tyrion not being "allowed" his heritage from Tywin. and why Tywin is so bitter toward the Targaryens (in particular the mad king) for thier/his role in removing Jaime as an heir.
there is a huge back story to Westeros that really helps ground a lot of the characters and helps understand their motives, it also helps give more life to the world than the show portrays. all you glean from the world is that it's a typical medieval setting with sprinklings of the fantastic, but it's actually a lot deeper than that.
i dunno, it's definitely one of the better book to screen adaptations out there, but it's still extremely lacking. and it's so fucking frustrating to see people who've only watched the show grasp at straws with their "conclusions" when if they'd read the books up until the same point in time they would probably have a completely different opinion.
i dunno, it's definitely one of the better book to screen adaptations out there, but it's still extremely lacking. and it's so fucking frustrating to see people who've only watched the show grasp at straws with their "conclusions" when if they'd read the books up until the same point in time they would probably have a completely different opinion.
While I can certainly appreciate your frustration, it isn't worth getting upset over. The written word is a much easier medium to work with when it comes to exposition. In books you can dive into the head of whatever character's perspective the author is using. And Martin uses a different character's perspective for every chapter.
In a video you have to show, not tell. So it's understandable that they would spend the majority of their time showing, and not spelling out the backstory. There are a few hints here and there that they've carefully woven into the narrative, they simply aren't as evident in the series.
With any luck, the series will encourage more people to give the books a try.
Totally understand Gir, like Richard says try not to get too frustrated hah. With almost any book -> film/tv translation there is a lot to be desired. I think any LOTR book reader would say the same of the movies.
They def haven't sold the fundamental idea that winters last like 4-10 years in this world. That's kind of critical for the northern story line. The only real mention of it was from Old Nan in one of the earlier episodes. Anyone i talk to who hasn't read the books has no idea about that aspect.
Although having read the books and now watching the shows it is interesting to see how much you CAN really take out of a story while still hitting the major beats and arcs. Or for that matter, how much you can take a thinner story(the show) and really deepen it (the books). I give cudos to the writers , the're trying, there's just a shit load of depth to the books.
People who only watch the shows are having a hard enough time keeping up with all the info/characters. I think trying to go any deeper would make it frustrating. Issues like this really make you aware of how fundamentally different tv/film is from books as a story telling device.
the frustration comes when i try talking to people who've only seen the show, and they say something and i'm like "that's wrong because..." and then they're like "OMG SPOILERS! FUCKER!".
and it's NOT a spoiler, it was revealed in the book prior to the current point of the show, it's not MY fault if you choose to remain ignorant of it.
They def haven't sold the fundamental idea that winters last like 4-10 years in this world. That's kind of critical for the northern story line. The only real mention of it was from Old Nan in one of the earlier episodes. Anyone i talk to who hasn't read the books has no idea about that aspect.
I don't really agree, Ned Stark mentions it in passing with Arya and when Tyrion goes to the wall he has a brief conversation about it with the master of the citadel and lord commander. Then later Sam and Jon get scolded... "You don't know cold"
I think the show's narrative works great, a lot of information is inferred or has to be picked up in conversation about past events but that's the case with any complex narrative. This aint Transformers...
A lot of the extra stuff is in the show, it's just that viewers need to pay attention to it. I suppose if you don't watch it weekly but from the DVD/BR instead, in one day, then it should stick a lot better.
So there was plenty of talk about Rhaegar, the rebellion, the winters, it's just that your friends are probably watching a lot of other shows and can't remember everything about this one.
and it's NOT a spoiler, it was revealed in the book prior to the current point of the show, it's not MY fault if you choose to remain ignorant of it.
Heh, you want spoilers? I've got your spoilers right here!
Mild Spoiler:
Ned Stark was not Jon Snow's biological father.
Bigger Spoiler:
Lyanna Stark is Jon Snow's real mother.
Extremely Big Spoiler, do not look at this if you've only watched the show!:
Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna Stark and Rheagar Targaryen. He is half Targaryen, and will likely end up riding a dragon. (or dead, the last book ended on a bit of a cliffhanger)
Heh, you want spoilers? I've got your spoilers right here!...do not look at this if you've only watched the show
You might need to differentiate between actual spoilers (things written on paper), and speculation (things that may be hinted at, but otherwise still aren't even solidified in the books).
You might need to differentiate between actual spoilers (things written on paper), and speculation (things that may be hinted at, but otherwise still aren't even solidified in the books).
That's what makes them significant spoilers. Martin may play coy about it, but that is definitely where the story is going. You can't hint at things that strongly and not have some manner of pay-off.
the frustration comes when i try talking to people who've only seen the show, and they say something and i'm like "that's wrong because..." and then they're like "OMG SPOILERS! FUCKER!".
and it's NOT a spoiler, it was revealed in the book prior to the current point of the show, it's not MY fault if you choose to remain ignorant of it.
That's a ridiculous thing to say. Some people don't have time to read the books, and people aren't being IGNORANT just by watching the TV show and not reading the books... The TV show is exactly that, a TV show. The books are a separate entity, they aren't meant to go hand-in-hand.
I understood the long Winters thing by watching the TV show, so it is certainly explained well.
That said however, I am reading the books atm, and yes, there is a lot more detail that is missing from the show. But they do a fantastic job of selling the overall story in the show, they just have to cut out some of the smaller intricacies of the world.
You might need to differentiate between actual spoilers (things written on paper), and speculation (things that may be hinted at, but otherwise still aren't even solidified in the books).
Martin hinted about this stuff in the very first book in 1996 or so. There was no internet, no fan forums, no collaboration and arguments on speculating about stuff.
He has even talked about this in general publicly, saying he would not have dropped so many hints if he knew in advance.
Then the showrunners of the series have talked about their first meeting with Martin, and mentioned that this (the spoiler stuff) was the question they had to answer to prove that they knew their stuff. They also said that they had to guess as it was never mentioned in the books, but they guessed right.
Obviously there were hints towards it, but the fact remains that nothing is established yet. I wouldn't deem something that is both
a) an obvious suggestion almost two decades old
b) has yet to be verified within that time
as being a significant spoiler. It's old enough to drive a car, and yet it still isn't cannon. Real spoilers are the things that come seemingly from no where, things where you flip the page or cut to the next scene and think "oh, well that just happened...".
Otherwise, massive spoiler guyz: winter is coming.
As someone who has never read the books... (i honestly don't have time atm but will one day) i've been enjoying the 3rd series quite a bit, much more than the 1st & 2nd.
I'm loving Daenerys Targaryen not only is she quite the sexy minx but she's a bad ass boss too haha.
When ones favorite fantasy book series becomes a tv series of the highest outmost calibre one should be happy about that fact rather than get annoyed that people wont "get it" or miss out on subtle storytelling.
When ones favorite fantasy book series becomes a tv series of the highest outmost calibre one should be happy about that fact rather than get annoyed that people wont "get it" or miss out on subtle storytelling.
I agree,
I've read the books 3 times now, I love them, BUT I understand that the TV show is a totally different medium, and so things have to change for various reasons.
I'm content with most of the changes really, as long as you don't go into it expecting it to follow the books word for word it's fine
Eh... Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I understand where gir is coming from and agree with him, but I've kinda shifted my perspective.
Instead of getting upset at them changing up the story, I kinda pulled a "Walking dead mentality" out and keep the stories separated in my mind.
I think the major problem with this series in particular is that a good 50-70% of the story is comprised of inner-monologue from each character's perspective. So a lot of stuff that's going on inside of people's heads is not gonna be readily available for viewers of the show. That is the root of many changes thus far.. the writers just having to change what happens in order to get points across that would normally just be someone's thoughts/ideas/feelings on the situation.
Heh, you want spoilers? I've got your spoilers right here!
It takes some careful paying attention to come to those conclusions.
I think GRRM's left it open enough for him to change his mind if he decides to go a different route, too.
But yeah, I came to those conclusions too. The amount of theorizing you can do about the history in these books is awesome..in a way that's my least favorite thing about the show: the lack of subtlety... what was a reward for the astute in the books is incredibly straightforward in the show.
Anyway, here's my conjecture contribution!
Spoilers
GRRM will have to either kill or finally introduce Howlen Reed, since he's the only living character who should know Jon's patronage
Tyrion will also ride a dragon--or at the very least will make the saddles for them
Oh god I accidentally moused over some of those spoilers Richard. WHYYYYYYYY. Damn it.
I warned you! And to be fair, I actually extrapolated most of that from the first book. Most of it can be deducted from some of the internal flashbacks that Ned Stark had. There's only one other character in the books that knows for sure, and he hasn't been introduced in either the books or the TV series. Until that character arrives in the spotlight, the audience will never know for sure.
@blankslatejoe
I like your conjecture. The second one is a bit more of a stretch, but I certainly hope it comes to pass! I love Tyrion!
I warned you! And to be fair, I actually extrapolated most of that from the first book. Most of it can be deducted from some of the internal flashbacks that Ned Stark had. There's only one other character in the books that knows for sure, and he hasn't been introduced in either the books or the TV series. Until that character arrives in the spotlight, the audience will never know for sure.
@blankslatejoe
I like your conjecture. The second one is a bit more of a stretch, but I certainly hope it comes to pass! I love Tyrion!
I don't think it is too much a stretch...
Riding, maybe, but in the first book Tyrion makes Bran's saddle and is also carrying aorund tons of books about dragons and is obsessed with them. I think Martin realized he was laying it on a bit thick and so he backed off of the tyrion-as-a-dragon-loving-engineer for a few books...but now he is en route to MEET dany (later books)
the frustration comes when i try talking to people who've only seen the show, and they say something and i'm like "that's wrong because..." and then they're like "OMG SPOILERS! FUCKER!".
and it's NOT a spoiler, it was revealed in the book prior to the current point of the show, it's not MY fault if you choose to remain ignorant of it.
To be fair, this thread didn't start because "OMG THE BOOKS!"
I think it's a safe assumption that some in here have not read the books, but are really into the show. Spoiling something that happens in the books, but hasn't happened in the show yet is shitty. Who knows?... The show may inspire someone to get into the books also.
It takes some careful paying attention to come to those conclusions.
Or just reading internet forums... again, something Martin could not have predicted.
I think GRRM's left it open enough for him to change his mind if he decides to go a different route, too.
I don't think it's left open at all, there's far too much going for it
However
they were very careful not to have nearly any hints about it in the show. Although filming all those flashback scenes with a young Ned and Lyanna would have been troublesome as well.
All you get is Ned promising Jon to talk about it, and maybe stating that he is from his blood. Okay and a lot of people praising Rhaegar which could make the viewer wonder about the supposed kidnapping and rape.
Replies
now, a cavalry charge was doomed to fail anyway as there was a wall behind the Unsullied, but out in the open, a lance armed knight cavalry would tear them up no question.
anyway, we know from the books exactly how and why the unsullied aren't the army Dany will use.
gahhhhhhhhhhhhhh why would you post this
TBH I don't care enough anymore about GoT to be angry about reading spoilers online. The show is more consistently good that the books, the books can really vary wildly in quality. This is the third pretty big spoiler I've heard about the end of ADwD, I really advice people who care to stay away from GoT related facebook posts etc.
good for you. the rest of us probably don't want people posting what happens
it is def a good idea to just stay out of any GoT discussion in general though haha.
The sword fight at the beginning was a high point for me. Nice to see Jon Snow finally getting some action later too, haha. Robb executing that dude was a pretty sweet scene. I enjoyed the episode, really excited to see where things would go.
That being said, I really enjoyed this new episode, the last one was more action packed, but I enjoy the character exposition more at times, I like learning about why people are the way they are, and understanding more about the relationships/linkages between characters. Of all the storylines going on right now, I think I'm the most interested to find out what happens with Jon Snow.
Actually, I'm pretty sure she would have been pushed into another marriage no matter what. It was always her father's intention to re-marry her. If anything, her plotting only accelerated the process.
One of Circe's defining attributes is just how selfish and abitious she is. She wants to rule, to have all the power and respect. She isn't resistant because she wants to choose her own husband. She is resistant because she hates the idea of anyone having power over her. She wants to be able to rule and command the realm in her own right, by her own authority. It galls her that her current "power" is borrowed from the men around her.
If she were a bit more clever, and less self-centered, she would realize that being Loras Tyrell's "beard" would actually be a pretty good arangement for her. Loras is not particularly cruel or unkind. He would most likely not attempt to hold her back or refuse her. And as long as she was smart enough to keep some attractive young men around the household staff, Loras would probably leave her be most of the time. It would be a much better arrangement for her than being married to Robert.
I felt the episode dragged on eventually, got a little bored towards the end.
Oh, I agree. Her father wants to stop the rumors of her screwing her brother.
So it was guaranteed he'd push her into something again, rather than let her continue banging her bro in secrecy. I just think she didn't have the foresight to realize it.
Marrying Cersei (pay attention to the spelling, guys
Examples: Tullys helping out Rob Stark because Cat was married to Ned.
Drogo swearing to conquer Westeros because of an attack on his wife (and unborn son).
Everyone trying to marry some kid to Sansa to get closer to claiming the North.
Of course there are counter examples too: the entire army of the Vale sits idly because Lisa Tully refuses to help her sister. And of course the Lannisters conspired to basically murder Robert, despite the marriage (although I'm sure Tywin knows who's son Joffrey really is).
Well, yes! The maddening thing about Circe for me is that she thinks she's a lot more clever than she actually is. She's all ego, with very little competence to back it up. This makes her the perfect foil for her brother Tyrion, who has to constantly deal with being trod on by the world around him, but who is fiercely competent, capable, and clever.
Tyrion is the little nerd underdog that everyone spits on, but is constantly behind the scenes fixing everything. Circe is the vapid, venal prom queen who has grown up having everyone worship her and can't deal with anything that doesn't conform to her idea of what ought to be.
Banging Jaime is just an extra reason, but even if there was nothing between them, Cersei would still be used as a tool, a bargaining chip basically, to advance Tywin's political goals.
Not sure if it was mentioned in the show, but Tywin originally wanted to wed Cersei to Rhaegar Targaryen, before Robert's rebellion. But the mad King Aerys was jealous of his popularity and decided to mock him by marrying Rhaegar to the daughter of the Prince of Dorne.
It was also the reason why he admitted Jaime into the Kingsguard - those knights forsake all possessions and swear celibacy, so this way he robbed Tywin of his heir too.
No wonder that the old Lannister did not help him out during the rebellion, but decided to sack King's Landing and have his lackeys murder Rhaegar's children, with Jaime killing Aerys himself. He really pays his debts
She's also been deeply hurt because she was promised to marry the Dragon Prince, Rhaegar, whom pretty much everyone thought to be the best man alive (including even Ned). Instead she ended up with the drunk whoremonger Robert...
It's actually more than just that. I don't know how they are planning on handling the character of Loras going forward in the series, but in the books he is the youngest of three sons. As such, he actually has very few prospects in terms of inheritance. His older brothers will most likely get their own lands and titles, but he doesn't have nearly as many options.
Given the fact that Tywin seems dead-set on screwing Tyrion out of his rightful inheritance, and Jaime seems determined to remain in the Kingsguard, whoever marries Circe will be the most likely candidate to become Tywin Lannister's heir-apparant, and the next Lord of Casterly Rock. (and by default, one of the richest and most powerful men in all of Westeros) An offer that sweet is something that the Tyrells probably wouldn't be able to refuse, and would be a solid trade-off for losing out on Sansa Stark. That Tywin is a shrewd fellow.
Your logic is sound though
You're not going to be able to convince me to feel sympathy for Circe. I've read the books, and I know exactly what she is. Boo hoo, she was forced to marry one king instead of another. She's lived her entire life in extravegant luxury, and openly despises those who aren't in her elevated station. She actively takes advantage of her own children in order to wield greater political power.
Tywin is a stone-cold, cruel, calculating asshole. But at least he doesn't actually expect anyone to love him for it. And at least he's actually good at being a stone-cold, cruel, calculating asshole. Circe has all the ego and appetite, but none of the competence. All of her relatives are ruthless, but they also have redeeming qualities that allow the audience or readers to empathize with them. Tywin is cold, but over time you come to realize that he was born into a difficult situation and had to step up for the sake of his family. Jaime seems like a vain, arrogant warmongerer, but eventually starts to grow through some of the hardships he has to face. Tyrion is one of the most likable and sympathetic characters in the story from the very beginning. Circe has none of this. She's almost as unlikable as Joffrey. (who is the very soul of malevolence)
I'm fine with having more Circe on the screen. As a character she is fascinating to watch. But you watch her for the same reason that you can't turn away from a car crash.
Yeah its a fairly important scene in the books too. Finding out that Westeros mock him for the very thing that saved thousands of people... took bravery, not cowardice.
And the two lanisters at the end...just lol..."hey, why are you looking at me" thehhee...
seriously man, my favorite scene in the show so far. really, really well done.
the show is getting better, but... i dunno, it really feels like they cram too much into too small a space of time. and it's detrimental.
i had a conversation with someone who's fallen in love with the show, but they couldn't tell me anything about:
who is Rhaegar Targeryen?
why was Robert Beratheon king?
what was his insurgency all about?
why the words "winter is coming" are so important?
the connection between the dragons being born, and magic returning to the world (see the lightning lord and his revival as evidence of that).
and much more... i think Vargatom pointed out in the last couple of pages of this thread, the significance of Tyrion not being "allowed" his heritage from Tywin. and why Tywin is so bitter toward the Targaryens (in particular the mad king) for thier/his role in removing Jaime as an heir.
there is a huge back story to Westeros that really helps ground a lot of the characters and helps understand their motives, it also helps give more life to the world than the show portrays. all you glean from the world is that it's a typical medieval setting with sprinklings of the fantastic, but it's actually a lot deeper than that.
i dunno, it's definitely one of the better book to screen adaptations out there, but it's still extremely lacking. and it's so fucking frustrating to see people who've only watched the show grasp at straws with their "conclusions" when if they'd read the books up until the same point in time they would probably have a completely different opinion.
While I can certainly appreciate your frustration, it isn't worth getting upset over. The written word is a much easier medium to work with when it comes to exposition. In books you can dive into the head of whatever character's perspective the author is using. And Martin uses a different character's perspective for every chapter.
In a video you have to show, not tell. So it's understandable that they would spend the majority of their time showing, and not spelling out the backstory. There are a few hints here and there that they've carefully woven into the narrative, they simply aren't as evident in the series.
With any luck, the series will encourage more people to give the books a try.
They def haven't sold the fundamental idea that winters last like 4-10 years in this world. That's kind of critical for the northern story line. The only real mention of it was from Old Nan in one of the earlier episodes. Anyone i talk to who hasn't read the books has no idea about that aspect.
Although having read the books and now watching the shows it is interesting to see how much you CAN really take out of a story while still hitting the major beats and arcs. Or for that matter, how much you can take a thinner story(the show) and really deepen it (the books). I give cudos to the writers , the're trying, there's just a shit load of depth to the books.
People who only watch the shows are having a hard enough time keeping up with all the info/characters. I think trying to go any deeper would make it frustrating. Issues like this really make you aware of how fundamentally different tv/film is from books as a story telling device.
and it's NOT a spoiler, it was revealed in the book prior to the current point of the show, it's not MY fault if you choose to remain ignorant of it.
I think the show's narrative works great, a lot of information is inferred or has to be picked up in conversation about past events but that's the case with any complex narrative. This aint Transformers...
So there was plenty of talk about Rhaegar, the rebellion, the winters, it's just that your friends are probably watching a lot of other shows and can't remember everything about this one.
Heh, you want spoilers? I've got your spoilers right here!
Mild Spoiler:
Bigger Spoiler:
Extremely Big Spoiler, do not look at this if you've only watched the show!:
You might need to differentiate between actual spoilers (things written on paper), and speculation (things that may be hinted at, but otherwise still aren't even solidified in the books).
That's what makes them significant spoilers. Martin may play coy about it, but that is definitely where the story is going. You can't hint at things that strongly and not have some manner of pay-off.
That's a ridiculous thing to say. Some people don't have time to read the books, and people aren't being IGNORANT just by watching the TV show and not reading the books... The TV show is exactly that, a TV show. The books are a separate entity, they aren't meant to go hand-in-hand.
I understood the long Winters thing by watching the TV show, so it is certainly explained well.
That said however, I am reading the books atm, and yes, there is a lot more detail that is missing from the show. But they do a fantastic job of selling the overall story in the show, they just have to cut out some of the smaller intricacies of the world.
Martin hinted about this stuff in the very first book in 1996 or so. There was no internet, no fan forums, no collaboration and arguments on speculating about stuff.
He has even talked about this in general publicly, saying he would not have dropped so many hints if he knew in advance.
Then the showrunners of the series have talked about their first meeting with Martin, and mentioned that this (the spoiler stuff) was the question they had to answer to prove that they knew their stuff. They also said that they had to guess as it was never mentioned in the books, but they guessed right.
Pretty much confirms it IMHO.
a) an obvious suggestion almost two decades old
b) has yet to be verified within that time
as being a significant spoiler. It's old enough to drive a car, and yet it still isn't cannon. Real spoilers are the things that come seemingly from no where, things where you flip the page or cut to the next scene and think "oh, well that just happened...".
Otherwise, massive spoiler guyz: winter is coming.
I'm loving Daenerys Targaryen not only is she quite the sexy minx but she's a bad ass boss too haha.
I agree,
I've read the books 3 times now, I love them, BUT I understand that the TV show is a totally different medium, and so things have to change for various reasons.
I'm content with most of the changes really, as long as you don't go into it expecting it to follow the books word for word it's fine
Instead of getting upset at them changing up the story, I kinda pulled a "Walking dead mentality" out and keep the stories separated in my mind.
I think the major problem with this series in particular is that a good 50-70% of the story is comprised of inner-monologue from each character's perspective. So a lot of stuff that's going on inside of people's heads is not gonna be readily available for viewers of the show. That is the root of many changes thus far.. the writers just having to change what happens in order to get points across that would normally just be someone's thoughts/ideas/feelings on the situation.
Welp, pretty sure all the surprises are gone by now. Better read the next one a little quicker.
It takes some careful paying attention to come to those conclusions.
I think GRRM's left it open enough for him to change his mind if he decides to go a different route, too.
But yeah, I came to those conclusions too. The amount of theorizing you can do about the history in these books is awesome..in a way that's my least favorite thing about the show: the lack of subtlety... what was a reward for the astute in the books is incredibly straightforward in the show.
Anyway, here's my conjecture contribution!
Spoilers
I warned you! And to be fair, I actually extrapolated most of that from the first book. Most of it can be deducted from some of the internal flashbacks that Ned Stark had. There's only one other character in the books that knows for sure, and he hasn't been introduced in either the books or the TV series. Until that character arrives in the spotlight, the audience will never know for sure.
@blankslatejoe
I like your conjecture. The second one is a bit more of a stretch, but I certainly hope it comes to pass! I love Tyrion!
I don't think it is too much a stretch...
To be fair, this thread didn't start because "OMG THE BOOKS!"
I think it's a safe assumption that some in here have not read the books, but are really into the show. Spoiling something that happens in the books, but hasn't happened in the show yet is shitty. Who knows?... The show may inspire someone to get into the books also.
Or just reading internet forums... again, something Martin could not have predicted.
I don't think it's left open at all, there's far too much going for it
However
All you get is Ned promising Jon to talk about it, and maybe stating that he is from his blood. Okay and a lot of people praising Rhaegar which could make the viewer wonder about the supposed kidnapping and rape.
http://kotaku.com/wow-romes-most-allegedly-debauched-ruler-looks-just-487852247