3D artist + concept support for Dominance War 4?

adam

Some contest have allowed a 3D artist to partner with a concept artist for help, and some - the later ones - did not. Who knows what will or will not be allowed for Dominance War 4.

In the mean time, though, lets see what you guys think. Should someone be allowed to have a concept of their entry made for them by a friend/third-party?

Yes?
No?
Perhaps?

Difference of opinions, I am sure, will be ripe with this one so step out of line and I'll sick the flying monkeys on your asses and issue out infractions.

bounchfx

this is probably the single most contributing factor to whether or not I compete.

I will either way, and I can do concepts, but the time it takes me to nail down a concept I like can drastically increase the time I take, as well as motivation. I'd like to have the option to pair. Makes things much easier to focus on the 3d art.

dfacto

It will only raise the level of the competition, so absolutely.

Yozora

yes, but I personally wouldn't want to do it for my entry since I want to design and make my own thing

BoBo_the_seal

Well I had to say no. For some contest absolutely! But Dominance war has always seemed more of an individual battle. Who has the best all-around entry. I know it is tough but it's fun to see an individuals creativity along with execution.

- BoBo

e-freak

what Bobo said. Also learning and achievement of a finished piece is much higher if you develop from scratch to blast on your own.

Gav

I said "Who Cares?" because to me, singles have took the win (even though Mop and Tully placed high...) so it's not really a huge threat, I don't think it will tip the scales too much one way or another...it just may be really hard to organize that on the DW management side, i dunno.

But yeah, to me, I don't care one way or another...Personally, I think the benefits of working alon are higher than teaming up..but if someone really wants to get a draing from someone with interest in the subject, I'm not going to get too bent out of shape

So...I guess i actually lean more towards "yes" as I'm pro choice, so to speak...but if the answer is "no", I'm not bothered.

Mark Dygert

I have to say no also. It should be more about what you can personally do, rather then who you know and what they can do for you. I also think concepts should not be required since not everyone works that way.

Justin Meisse

considering I spend 90% of my time fretting over the concept, allowing team-ups might be the deciding factor for me. I had a partner on the first war.

ElysiumGX

Undecided. The biggest disadvantage I've had in the 2 DW challenges I've attempted, is my inability to concept what I want to do, in the level if quality I want it to be. I wish I had a talented concept artist giving me a foundation to work from. But, if that's allowed, then all the highly skilled modelers paired with the gifted concept artist would be far above the level of quality most would be able to match. So, I'm not sure. But, I think for fairness, it should be an individual competition. It just sad to admit I have no chance.

Vitor

I suck completly at concepting and team up with some concept artist would be a great step forward but I vote "no" in the end... as Bobo said, this always looked like a mano a mano challenge.

Eclipse

I probably won't enter this year if we can't team up. I don't normally like my concepts at all, let alone enough to model them to DW style completion, which is why I have never entered before =/. Just can't stay motivated long enough when it's my lame designs.

Marine

depends on how busy gauss is

killingpeople

No, because of some good reason I can't think about

NyneDown

I think it would be hard to gauge ones skills and talents if they were to team up with a concept artist. I think it's pretty important to grow as much as possible as an artist...so if that means pushing yourself to make a nice concept, so be it.

If they do, however, allow us to pair up...it would be pretty tempting. I think what I would do is come up with an original idea of my own and sketch/concept it out and run it past an actual concept artist to see what they would add/subtract from it. Helps me learn more that way anyway.

Wells

no. this is about an individual dominating - not an art team.

skankerzero

Yes, though I think there should be a seperate, team category.

Like a character in a scene with a mount. Let an env artist team up with a character artist and concept artist. or however you want to do it. mix and match 3 people.

Unleashed

I voted no.

Going off on a tangent, a competition between the various forums on making some sort of giant team project would be entertaining, some sort of simple game, maybe an open source engine predetermined at start. everyone from their respective forums could pitch in but it must be 100% transparent(stuck on the msg boards)? It would be a logistical and managerial nightmare

Luxury

I can't draw worth shit. I would greatly benefit from a good concept and concept artist.
But I vote no because that's the way that I think it should be.

Ged

personally I love both concepting and 3d art.

Then again, I would enjoy it if I could team up with a person who would love to do my uvmapping and rigging lol! just kidding but I guess there are parts of each persons workflow which frustrate them or cause them to take alot of time.

coldkodiak

You know, I was going to say yes. Studios don't always have 3d guys concepting, so why should we do any different in this challenge?

Then I thought, 3d participants can't get someone to do their rigging. Can't get them to do their textures. Nor rendering. Can't have them do anything that is considered, at times, seperate in a work environment.

So why shouldn't they have to do their concept too?


You don't need a good drawing to win the 3d contest. It helps, but yeah, guys like fausto de martini don't need a good drawing to make a kick ass model.

konstruct

I feel like 3d art is 1/2 craft, and 1/2 art- There are many rules that you have to follow to come to an end product. However, you can know all the rules forward and backward, and not have an idea of how to use it to make something look cool. It seems to me, if a concept is provided, this should be judged separately in a 3d craftsmanship competition.

Being able to reproduce something, is a bit different than coming up with your own creation.


One is 100% craft - the other is an Arnold Palmer of 3d skilliosis. :P

Snowfly

Hehe good points. Can we get other guys to write our shaders for us?

I voted no, just because guys like rv_el/kite/neox/peppi and a ton of non-winners turn out fresh work year on year, and they work solo.

konstruct

like fausto de martini don't need a good drawing to make a kick ass model.

troo dat: his drawings arent bad or anything, but his models are always lightyears better.

Emil Mujanovic

It seems that artists that don't have strong 2D skills all said yes to being able to team up, where the more experienced and refined artists are saying no.

I personally think it should be allowed, because at the end of the day, you're being judged on the final 3D model (unless you're entering the 2D challenge). Just because the 3D artist has some pro doing a concept image for them, it doesn't mean that the final model is going to turn out rad.

What's the go with this being a 1 on 1/mano a mano comp? The Dominance War isn't about every man for himself, its forum vs forum. At least that's the way I remember it.
The first Dominance War was by my favourite because it seemed like Polycount worked as a team, gauss and Ninjas smashing out paintovers/concepts like mad men helping out the dudes with weak 2D skills to help push the overall quality level of everyone's work.
The recent Dominance Wars have lost that feel in my opinion. The prizes are bigger, there are tonnes of forums involved and its looking like some of the participants are focusing on the individual aspect instead of the team/forum/community aspect (especially judging by the responses in this thread).

If there is any way that a forum can get a leg up to win the Dominance War (within the rules of course), then it has my thumbs up.

Snowfly

Well casey as long as we're pushing game art newbies to get into traditional art schools, might as well back up that sentiment for DW, yeah?

Besides, with Fred pulling in new forums every year, the forum on forum vibe is long gone...GA vs PC psshh. I'm trashtalking on CG Land!

adam

Mm.. we're all videogame art, though, and while the vibe may be 1-for-all I do think having a concept + character would be more fitting for the position.

Ryan Hawkins

Snowfly wrote: »

Besides, with Fred pulling in new forums every year, the forum on forum vibe is long gone...GA vs PC psshh. I'm trashtalking on CG Land!

But is that a bad thing to get new forums? I like it because we get to see crazy art from around the world for free.

At the end of the day were still an art community and we all have a passion for video games so whoever else shares that passion as well no matter where they are from is cool with me.

BoBo_the_seal

Again it all comes down to creativity for me. I feel it's a big part of this challenge. If you just do the modeling part it shows that you are a good technician, but it isn't a good example of your creativity.

caseyjones wrote: »

The first Dominance War was by my favourite because it seemed like Polycount worked as a team, gauss and Ninjas smashing out paintovers/concepts like mad men helping out the dudes with weak 2D skills to help push the overall quality level of everyone's work.

Yeah, I think that is the perfect way to work for people who need a little help. Gauss and Ninjas didn't create concepts for people from thin air. If I remember right, they helped people with their ideas by doing paintovers and helpful images (nothing different than what we would do in any other WIP thread). Having someone completely design a character for you to reproduce is a little different.

- BoBo

coldkodiak

You know, if people want to split the work and the prize, and the respectz, why not?

I think however though, the 3d artist shouldn't be required to know every little aspect of the presentation and work.

And I'm not coming at this from a 'I can't do that, so I'm pushing to get it opened up" position. I can rig and render and everything required for the comp, but I know some people just do it better, and like to do it. If I want to split a prize with a bunch of people... why not? Just keep them all within in the community, and treat them like super groups or something.


This reminds me of the shader debate on game artisans... haha

Wicked-J

I really wouldn't mind so much if a concept artist had the option to team up with a 3D artist, just as long as the judging system recognized a single entry and a team entry as a separate "thing".

Just like how 2D is judged separate from 3D, singles entries (in my opinion) should be judged separate from team entries, even if they are both 3D.

Just my two cents...

TheSplash

Is it fair to judge team efforts against single entries? I voted no, because i prefer an even playing field in competition.

Emil Mujanovic

Snowfly wrote: »

Well casey as long as we're pushing game art newbies to get into traditional art schools, might as well back up that sentiment for DW, yeah?

I agree, but everyone has to start from somewhere, right?
Mad props to any newbie that enters the comp and does their own concept and 3D without the help of anyone, regardless of skill level. But with a deadline as short as this one, any help goes a long long way.

BoBo_the_seal wrote: »

Gauss and Ninjas didn't create concepts for people from thin air. If I remember right, they helped people with their ideas by doing paintovers and helpful images (nothing different than what we would do in any other WIP thread). Having someone completely design a character for you to reproduce is a little different.

From memory, gauss did a bunch of quick sketches and dumped them into a thread for people to pick. If a certain sketch was picked, he would develop it a little further and then just hand it over to the artist. That's how sectaurs got his ass monster (correct me if I'm wrong, sectaurs).

He also asked people to give him idea if they wanted a concept, and from those ideas he would knock out a quick sketch or a bunch of thumbnails. Then would do another pass or two and hand it over for the 3D guy to model if they were happy with it.

Gav

What I liked about that, and sorry if this sounds kinda lame, is that that kind of team spirit made it feel more like a "war", like those guys were supplying their team members with the means to beat their opponents. As a whole, the forums was banding together to win...sure there were obvious top picks and stuff, but the point is to have the forum win...not just a single person place 1st and make off like a bandit (or at least that's what I'd like to believe )

bounchfx

I'd be all for help with concepts instead of them being done by other people, because even if we could have someone else do the concept I don't think I'd go that route, I'd want my own creation. I guess what I was looking for before was a little nudge in the right direction and some advice with concepting

aniceto

I voted yes.
some people need to be banned from using their own awful concepts >:[

like me

Emil Mujanovic

Gavimage wrote: »

What I liked about that, and sorry if this sounds kinda lame, is that that kind of team spirit made it feel more like a "war", like those guys were supplying their team members with the means to beat their opponents. As a whole, the forums was banding together to win...sure there were obvious top picks and stuff, but the point is to have the forum win...not just a single person place 1st and make off like a bandit (or at least that's what I'd like to believe )

I couldn't agree more. This is why you're a champ

Spark

For me, there should be a serperation for the challenges. One for those that fight alone, and another challenge for the ones for teams, as for Dominance war 2 I felt a serious unbalance being judged against those that had more than one fighting. The last Dominance war was balanced as you had to go all by yourself, which I think pushes you to touch those areas that your weak in, which I still suck at rendering:P

Spark

skankerzero

I just don't have the patience right now to finish a model on my own. I'd rather split the work. That's why I think there should be a team category. There's several of us that just don't feel like doing a full model on our spare time.

If I was to do a full model on my spare time, you can sure as hell bet it's not going to be for a contest where I have to follow rules and specs. That's what work is for.

Bal

Just to point out that, yeah many newbies could really use some help from a concept artist, but most of the time they are also the ones that don't have easy access to any of them, unlike many of us who are in the industry and know artists as collegues etc.

I feel people should have to do everything themselves, but can get extensive help from friends and other forum posters, such as paintovers etc, I think that's best, but I definitely understand those of you who'd rather work directly with a concept artist.

Firecracker197

Nothing shows more skill than doing a great model and executing an creative idea yourself. I would give more credit to someone who didn't go to a concept artist. We may not be concept artists but as modelers we still need to have some creative juices going, and dominance war challenges you to bring those out!

nrek

I would have to say no, just because at the end of the day I want to look back and be like "yea, that's my beastly little baby right there". The thing you guys are talking about from dom war 1 with the mass paint overs and everything sounds great, and even if we stuck with a no team solution you can still get that team spirit. Maybe have like a single thread where everyone just posts up their early concepts so we can bounce ideas off each other, it would be just like a high school art class. Someone might see a cool character and suggest that it would look even more badass with a third horn on its butt or something, which might be an idea the artist never would have considered exploring. I think a big thread like that would have more constat activity and keep everyone energized kinda like the battle of the bulge thread lol. Rather then having to wait and hope that someone pops into your personal thread and leaves you some feedback on your concept before they move on to a bigger and better thread.

Wendy de Boer

Even though my drawing and concepting skills are epic fail, I voted "no". I like the idea that you have to be a one man show for the Dominance War. It will push you to explore more facets of (game) art, which is a good thing IMHO.

kwakkie

It is unfair to those that are making their entry on their own: no.

Rens

noooo!

it just doesnt seem right..
for me its a battle that shows what a man can come up with, at all fronts, showing a big range of skill.

its also a great way to practice skills you dont use as much as others.
this is what it makes it such a great learning experience.

otherwise, why stop with 2 man, why not make it a big team battle and bring in a texture artist.. ect.

TheWinterLord

Well if you cant team up noone should be able to give critz in the forum or pmessages about ideas and stuff because then its like they are not doing their own work... Im not serious about this but I have a point what if another forum member reminds you of fixing some error u did not see, yeh its minor but a what poit will it be considered cheating and unfair for the guy not getting help?

eboy

Voted no. I consider Dom War a one man show character comp. Plus I think it's interesting to see what each individual comes up with.

kwakkie

TheWinterLord wrote: »

Well if you cant team up noone should be able to give critz in the forum or pmessages about ideas and stuff because then its like they are not doing their own work... Im not serious about this but I have a point what if another forum member reminds you of fixing some error u did not see, yeh its minor but a what poit will it be considered cheating and unfair for the guy not getting help?

Your comparison doesnt make sense because working with teams would still end up with the same problem. IE: one team would still get more tips/criticism than another, its a neccesary evil(except that its good... er..... am i still making sense? :P)

TheWinterLord

yes i guess but many people here seem to want to do their entry all by them self and not get help by other people but in previous dominance war some people will ofcourse get ideas by crits from people commenting or talking to them about their wip. Yes im just being a bit lame, infact im thinking about entering doing the concept of my own creation as i find more fun in that but I am not in Dominace war to win, I cant really unless im really lucky hehe, with that in mind i just want to see the best possible art from other people and if having a concept artist help someone to do this im all for it. But yes I agree this is a competition and its unfair if some can get concept art help and some can not.

EVIL

No - If 3d artists need concept artist to create successful pieces then I think the 2d side should have them to.

What it comes down to is that if you cannot create a successful piece 100% from scratch then your not an artist and this is a contest between artist

An artist is a person who is creative and can develop an creative idea in all fields, construction, 2d, 3d music etc. If you are depended upon having someone pre-chew the idea for you then your just a tool.

That's what I think. I'm not saying the pro's who use concept art in the biz are not artist, but I am 100% sure that every artist in the bizz can create a successful piece from scratch. from concept (concept art can be a doodle or a quick sculpt, whatever) to finished render.

The need for an concept artist in this contest is laziness, do the 2d artist complain about having to come up with an idea and a concept? nope.


I don't mind artist shooting around ideas for 3d artist to get inspiration from but full developed concepts is to much. I'd like an even playing field, so what I'm concerned, at least 90% from scratch 10% being the bouncing off designs and getting feedback and critique.

Mogster

In the first DWAR! we had an open concept thread for ppl who needed concepts etc. for the comp so I don't see why we cant do something similar?