would be my feeling exactly. a solid ' yes ' for no other reason than i'd want to see more kick ass art coming to the party. even if i myself would rather go it alone ( with little hope of finishing admittedly ). those that want to compete under their own steam. more power to 'em. those that aren't so comfortable with their own concepts but really want to bring their 3D craftsmanship. sweet
ultimately you could throw an entire fucking studio at a dom war entry and it doesn't guarantee they'd produce work the likes of a peppi. or a kite. or a foreverendering. or the list of other top tier single competitors. so. fuck it. let's have some fun
My own selfish opinion:
It's just a shame that it is viewed as an individual effort. I can't help but feel the quality of submissions versus any other Dominance War/videogame art competition ever would be improved ten-fold. And really, that's what I love the most about the Dominance War; seeing some quality videogame art.
aye. this is what gets me.
this has been a great discussion so far with very valid points from both sides of the issue.
I know I'd prefer to do my own concept all the way through, but I also know that If I had someone more skilled in concepting do it (or at least help me out) so that I had a much clearer vision, the end result would be MUCH much better. and personally I would like to see just how far I could take something. I do environments for work so I don't get much of a chance to do characters, let alone high poly fully sculpted ones, so I'm super excited for this. just kinda wish I wasn't limited by my concepting abilities as much now, but it's just another hurdle.
and I agree that we work from concepts at work so it feels natrual to follow that, but it all depends on how you interpret the contest I guess. either way it should be awesome watching this bad boy unfold.
however I must admit it DOES sound a lot less forum vs forum and more person vs person now. There's so many forums now that it's a 'war' between everyone vs. select sides, which loses focus imo.
It's always been person vs person at the core of the contest. Its a team competition/war as much as Survivor is about community and team work. I want PC to succeed as much as anyone but I'm not always sure we can look to the past to tell us what to do now in the ever changing present.
I agree with bounchfx and that as more and more forums get added, the rivalry kind of dies down and its easier to focus on DW less as a forum war, and more as a contest. I think if it was 3 years ago and it was PC vs CGchat there would probably be more yes votes. But because the contest has morphed and changed, so has peoples views of how it should be run.
The only reason I would vote yes, is to see a old fashioned forum team win. But if the team win doesn't account for much, I have to vote no. Because it reads too much like one person is using a moped to run a marathon. Unfortunately the way things have gone with each war the War has taken a back seat to the Contest.
If i could just find someone to concept my idea for me then find someone else to model it for me, and then get someone to texture it for me I'd be able to compete. Sorry but that's what this sounds like to me. Dominance War to me has always been a team effort. Based on each communities team of artists to help one another come up with the best ideas instead of a select few dictating the ideas for the rest to crank out.
In the previous wars, I remember deciding which forum to pick because I wanted the best input and critiques when i was going to make my ammunition/art for the team. I remember getting help from Rawkstar, Kite, Singh, Rv_el, ThatDon, etc to make the best entry I could for my forum. Instead of us teaming up and making 1-2 entries we got 5+ done all exceptional in their own right. With the help and inspiration from the entire community. Half of the War is trying to round up the best artists to your forum to make awesome art and give critiques so that you can lob as many awesome pieces of art at the enemy. I mean as this comp gets bigger and bigger and more and more people enter it's actually even more critical that people bring their own ideas to the table so that forum has a better chance at taking the crown.
My first dom war with team polycount last year was awesome. You guys rock and your crits and support made the war worth the effort. I learnt sooo much and got to participate in something epic. I dont care if we have to enter as individuals or not because thats all it is "entry" - the participation in the war and the work in progress threads are where the magic happens. Go polycount!
I have to say no also. It should be more about what you can personally do, rather then who you know and what they can do for you. I also think concepts should not be required since not everyone works that way.
Same here. Even though I'm pretty bad at concepting, I'd rather work on my own on some underworked concepts as long as I have the model in my mind than have someone do it for me.
sheesh, didn't the rules say only two people could work on the project?
I'm probably not going to even make a token thread this year, I was looking forward to it like a dentist appointment "sigh, I guess I'm going to compete in the dom war this year"
16 hours until DW 4 begins. Can the time go by any slowwwwwer. I've literally been watching the clock since yesterday. 16hrs, pshhh... I'm going to the bar.
I say no. It's kind of abstract but if you apply this idea to the 2d side then I could come up with some bad ass character thumbnails and then team up with a person with super duper rendering skills to polish off the final illustration. Just seems like it would be a bit unfair to the other 2d artists.
However having a team category would probably work out well.
I said yes, because to me this has always been a *modeling contest* and what matters is the execution of the final model, much more than the concept itself. You guys make it sound like getting a 30 minute sketch from a friend, and then doing a full month of free time work on your own end to finish somehow gives you this huge advantage. Lets get serious here, in the end it is who can make the best *MODEL* not concept.
I think there is a very logical way to look at the whole situation, as that is to look back to past contests that let you use a concept artist.
Did the people who got help with their contests go on to make the best entries? Not by any stretch of the imagination, the people who have the skills to make a great concept for themself, and finish their model have always seemed to do the best. So the idea that this is somehow a great injustice and totally unfair is way off base.
Same with the idea that the best will just team up and PWN everyone, that is just silly, the best guys have egos and want to do it all on thier own. Again, this is not what happened in the past.
To me i think allowing people to use someone else's concept is a great way to expand the contest out to people who would not have otherwise joined.
I don't have a problem with someone sitting on the sidelines tossing some ideas and quick sketches around for people to use.
Sketch Guy: I'll put these sketches on this park bench and walk away.
3D guy: I'll come by in 10 min. If I win, I'll place a small package with your cut on the same park bench...
I think it adds a weird dimension if they "team up" with one specific person, that would entail doing more then just some quick idea sketches if you're on a team. When the terms Solo VS Team start cropping up things just get uncomfortable. I guess what I'm getting at is considering that the 2D concept itself, isn't really whats being judged in the 3D contest, its weird to call them a team.
I think in years past, teams consisted of a 2D artist and a 3D artist, both working on the same model in whatever capacity they decided on? It's all foggy... They're going to do what they're going to do, it will all be nitpicked to death and everyone will be overly critical but in the end, the winners have always deserved their win so it all works out.
It's probably going to come down to a Concept/3d Artist compeition. Sooooo I think I will start hunting for a good concept artist to help me out this year, if I can find time to do it ( and convince the wife to let me:P) And hopefully someone would want to team up with me to fight for Polycount.
I don't know if I can enter this year. But the main thing for me is, I spend all day creating others' concepts in 3d. The Dominance War is an opportunity for me to try out my own ideas, with a deadline that forces me to push them forward. Even though I'm not the strongest concept artist, and would probably be better off with someone more experienced doing the concepting for me, I enjoy practicing something a little out of my range.
Plus it's more fun to have complete control over the idea/aesthetic. I think it's pretty enjoyable to develop the idea of a character over time. The only real downside is how time consuming it can be. I think it took me 2 weeks before I settled on what I wanted to do last year.
As for other people teaming up, it wouldn't really make a difference to me either way. The better the artwork overall, the more everyone is going to push to improve. But I personally look at this comp as a chance to stretch my legs.
personally I believe that the battle is won at the concept stage
completly agree with Spark there. And I don't think that making it a 1 vs 1 match will destroy the team feeling. No one is arguing against good criticism, paint overs, suggestions... but 2 people working on the same entry... doesn't seem fair. Unfortunatly good concept artist are rare on these mainly 3D forums ,there are some great ones, but not enought for every 3D artist.
Actually, making it 1 on 1 would increase the community help. Everyone is alone, with weak points, so we'll need a lot of help from others. Allowing concept+3dartist teams will have a lot of teams working isolated, by them selves, just posting to keep the comunity up to date. Don't want to point at anyone, but check the team Bigun thread from the second DW. Dividing the communty in small teams will kill the old DW feeling...
I have noticed the interaction on the various competing forums growing smaller and smaller as the years go by. When I first started lurking here DW1 was just over and the entry threads were packed with crits and comments. I competed in DW2 and learned more in a few weeks than I had in an entire year from the crits I recieved but even so, there were a lot fewer comments going around than the year before. Last year just plain sucked, partly because I didin't have the time to finish but mostly because there were so many entries that there just wasn't enough advice to go around. I did my best to encourage a few entries I liked but even I didn't put in as much effort as I did the year before. The larger the comp gets, it seems, the less we all help eachother out and the more we focus purely on our own entries.
That would be fine if everyone entering had a shot at winning but most of us don't, we are amatures, students and hobbiests just looking to improve our work and have a good time with the team (whatever forum you side with). Last year I used the excuse that I didn't have time and dropped out of the war but in truth I was discouraged by the sheer volume of competitors and the rather underwhelming sense of team spirit.
I'm psyched about DW4 seeing as this year I SHOULD have the time to complete an entry. Lets hope PC can pull together again and get the spirit back and hopefully, the crown.
I definitely dont think that "spirit" will ever come back. Too many competitors, not enough posters and more importantly not enough time for the limited number of posters to comment on everyone's threads. There'll be a few outstanding competitors who a whole bunch of people will comment on every day, but 90% of the entries wont get a fraction of that attention.
I dont see any way to fix this for a competition of this size, because it really is hard to post a lot of comments every day especially when theres going to be like 100 updates/comments each day as well
Ya I don't think people are posting any less just their posts are getting spread out so thin now.
I just try to focus on 2-3 entries I really think I can help out and push them like crazy. Then I sprinkle little 1-2 line crits on the entries that maybe are being forgotten.
B
Xaltar, I think it depends on what you are looking to gain from joining a comp of this caliber. The skill level ranges from beginner to pro. Many of the pros and and people with demanding job/family schedules are just barely finding time to work on their own entries. So the lack of comradery doesn't surprise me. Nor does the amount of entries as this contest has some really great prizes and a ridiculous amount of exposure.
That would be fine if everyone entering had a shot at winning but most of us don't, we are amatures, students and hobbiests just looking to improve our work and have a good time with the team (whatever forum you side with). Last year I used the excuse that I didn't have time and dropped out of the war but in truth I was discouraged by the sheer volume of competitors and the rather underwhelming sense of team spirit.
I don't know man, but I think that entering a contest you don't think you have a chance of winning is discouraging enough. However I do hope you find your way in this comp and that you create a stunning piece of work. I think rooster posted a thread that will tweak your nips a bit
P.S. I am representing GA and I plan on putting my foot all up in Polycunt Arse! If avoiding a foot to ass experience doesn't encourage you, I don't know if anything will :thumbup:
Actually, making it 1 on 1 would increase the community help. Everyone is alone, with weak points, so we'll need a lot of help from others. Allowing concept+3dartist teams will have a lot of teams working isolated, by them selves, just posting to keep the comunity up to date. Don't want to point at anyone, but check the team Bigun thread from the second DW. Dividing the communty in small teams will kill the old DW feeling...
Yeah, that's the point.
The bad side of all this, is that all who doesn't know how to draw, or concept, will want to have a great concept/idea to do for the competition, it's very comprehensible. Thinking it better, they should feel like "outside" of competition due to their lack of skills for the most important thing, the design. It may be unfair aswell.
[joke]
If there are team for concepts, it would be great to have a team with people for:
1. concept & design
2. Modelling
3. Mapping
4. Texturing
5. Presentation
6. etc.
¬¬
[/joke]
forget the joke, if you win against 2, you can say you are better than them, and of course that you are more competitive and skilled! you have spirit! :S
BTW, teams are not the important thing in this comp, is to choose a forum, and do a great work alone, that's all. It's a competition, and called dominance war...
I see totally unfair to count with the help of a buddy for concepts. I could ask help to some talented buddies to do the work in parts, so we could take advantage over other participants. This is something noone w0n't know, beacuse this is the internet. Imagine a team of 5 people doing 2 or more entries, with the work well reparted and working in "assembly line", perfect!. It's unfair...
There aren't colors with all this, i have seen ppl switching forums like bees with flowers... teams forums are an excuse to participate, to englobe more participants, and to make a great entry depend all of us.
I'm impatient to see what happens... and i wonder if i can stop playing games in my free time. I'm really fed up of 3d work and all its fucking monotony as to be making more of the same. How do you get enough motivation? i'm empty :poly141:
I say no, and I can't stress it enough. I look at this as a competition, be it 2D or 3D it is to show ones skills. Pit one another against eachother, and see who prevails.
I can see a great injustice being done to someone with solid concept skills, who is planning to model, uv and texture it aswell. To me, it is just another critical phase that seperates pros from joes.
I honestly see saying yes as weakness. Besides. Its for fun, and you'd be learning more.
Replies
ultimately you could throw an entire fucking studio at a dom war entry and it doesn't guarantee they'd produce work the likes of a peppi. or a kite. or a foreverendering. or the list of other top tier single competitors. so. fuck it. let's have some fun
Remember this isn't about individuals, it's about stomping Game Artisans into the dirt and defeating all other comers for the glory of Greentooth.
aye. this is what gets me.
this has been a great discussion so far with very valid points from both sides of the issue.
I know I'd prefer to do my own concept all the way through, but I also know that If I had someone more skilled in concepting do it (or at least help me out) so that I had a much clearer vision, the end result would be MUCH much better. and personally I would like to see just how far I could take something. I do environments for work so I don't get much of a chance to do characters, let alone high poly fully sculpted ones, so I'm super excited for this. just kinda wish I wasn't limited by my concepting abilities as much now, but it's just another hurdle.
and I agree that we work from concepts at work so it feels natrual to follow that, but it all depends on how you interpret the contest I guess. either way it should be awesome watching this bad boy unfold.
however I must admit it DOES sound a lot less forum vs forum and more person vs person now. There's so many forums now that it's a 'war' between everyone vs. select sides, which loses focus imo.
either way. EXCITED!
I agree with bounchfx and that as more and more forums get added, the rivalry kind of dies down and its easier to focus on DW less as a forum war, and more as a contest. I think if it was 3 years ago and it was PC vs CGchat there would probably be more yes votes. But because the contest has morphed and changed, so has peoples views of how it should be run.
The only reason I would vote yes, is to see a old fashioned forum team win. But if the team win doesn't account for much, I have to vote no. Because it reads too much like one person is using a moped to run a marathon. Unfortunately the way things have gone with each war the War has taken a back seat to the Contest.
If i could just find someone to concept my idea for me then find someone else to model it for me, and then get someone to texture it for me I'd be able to compete. Sorry but that's what this sounds like to me. Dominance War to me has always been a team effort. Based on each communities team of artists to help one another come up with the best ideas instead of a select few dictating the ideas for the rest to crank out.
In the previous wars, I remember deciding which forum to pick because I wanted the best input and critiques when i was going to make my ammunition/art for the team. I remember getting help from Rawkstar, Kite, Singh, Rv_el, ThatDon, etc to make the best entry I could for my forum. Instead of us teaming up and making 1-2 entries we got 5+ done all exceptional in their own right. With the help and inspiration from the entire community. Half of the War is trying to round up the best artists to your forum to make awesome art and give critiques so that you can lob as many awesome pieces of art at the enemy. I mean as this comp gets bigger and bigger and more and more people enter it's actually even more critical that people bring their own ideas to the table so that forum has a better chance at taking the crown.
Dom War is about to begin!!
B
Same here. Even though I'm pretty bad at concepting, I'd rather work on my own on some underworked concepts as long as I have the model in my mind than have someone do it for me.
I'm probably not going to even make a token thread this year, I was looking forward to it like a dentist appointment "sigh, I guess I'm going to compete in the dom war this year"
16 hours until DW 4 begins. Can the time go by any slowwwwwer. I've literally been watching the clock since yesterday. 16hrs, pshhh... I'm going to the bar.
However having a team category would probably work out well.
I think there is a very logical way to look at the whole situation, as that is to look back to past contests that let you use a concept artist.
Did the people who got help with their contests go on to make the best entries? Not by any stretch of the imagination, the people who have the skills to make a great concept for themself, and finish their model have always seemed to do the best. So the idea that this is somehow a great injustice and totally unfair is way off base.
Same with the idea that the best will just team up and PWN everyone, that is just silly, the best guys have egos and want to do it all on thier own. Again, this is not what happened in the past.
To me i think allowing people to use someone else's concept is a great way to expand the contest out to people who would not have otherwise joined.
Sketch Guy: I'll put these sketches on this park bench and walk away.
3D guy: I'll come by in 10 min. If I win, I'll place a small package with your cut on the same park bench...
I think it adds a weird dimension if they "team up" with one specific person, that would entail doing more then just some quick idea sketches if you're on a team. When the terms Solo VS Team start cropping up things just get uncomfortable. I guess what I'm getting at is considering that the 2D concept itself, isn't really whats being judged in the 3D contest, its weird to call them a team.
I think in years past, teams consisted of a 2D artist and a 3D artist, both working on the same model in whatever capacity they decided on? It's all foggy... They're going to do what they're going to do, it will all be nitpicked to death and everyone will be overly critical but in the end, the winners have always deserved their win so it all works out.
Spark
Plus it's more fun to have complete control over the idea/aesthetic. I think it's pretty enjoyable to develop the idea of a character over time. The only real downside is how time consuming it can be. I think it took me 2 weeks before I settled on what I wanted to do last year.
As for other people teaming up, it wouldn't really make a difference to me either way. The better the artwork overall, the more everyone is going to push to improve. But I personally look at this comp as a chance to stretch my legs.
completly agree with Spark there. And I don't think that making it a 1 vs 1 match will destroy the team feeling. No one is arguing against good criticism, paint overs, suggestions... but 2 people working on the same entry... doesn't seem fair. Unfortunatly good concept artist are rare on these mainly 3D forums ,there are some great ones, but not enought for every 3D artist.
Actually, making it 1 on 1 would increase the community help. Everyone is alone, with weak points, so we'll need a lot of help from others. Allowing concept+3dartist teams will have a lot of teams working isolated, by them selves, just posting to keep the comunity up to date. Don't want to point at anyone, but check the team Bigun thread from the second DW. Dividing the communty in small teams will kill the old DW feeling...
That would be fine if everyone entering had a shot at winning but most of us don't, we are amatures, students and hobbiests just looking to improve our work and have a good time with the team (whatever forum you side with). Last year I used the excuse that I didn't have time and dropped out of the war but in truth I was discouraged by the sheer volume of competitors and the rather underwhelming sense of team spirit.
I'm psyched about DW4 seeing as this year I SHOULD have the time to complete an entry. Lets hope PC can pull together again and get the spirit back and hopefully, the crown.
I dont see any way to fix this for a competition of this size, because it really is hard to post a lot of comments every day especially when theres going to be like 100 updates/comments each day as well
I just try to focus on 2-3 entries I really think I can help out and push them like crazy. Then I sprinkle little 1-2 line crits on the entries that maybe are being forgotten.
B
I don't know man, but I think that entering a contest you don't think you have a chance of winning is discouraging enough. However I do hope you find your way in this comp and that you create a stunning piece of work. I think rooster posted a thread that will tweak your nips a bit
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=61464
P.S. I am representing GA and I plan on putting my foot all up in Polycunt Arse! If avoiding a foot to ass experience doesn't encourage you, I don't know if anything will :thumbup:
Yeah, that's the point.
The bad side of all this, is that all who doesn't know how to draw, or concept, will want to have a great concept/idea to do for the competition, it's very comprehensible. Thinking it better, they should feel like "outside" of competition due to their lack of skills for the most important thing, the design. It may be unfair aswell.
[joke]
If there are team for concepts, it would be great to have a team with people for:
1. concept & design
2. Modelling
3. Mapping
4. Texturing
5. Presentation
6. etc.
¬¬
[/joke]
forget the joke, if you win against 2, you can say you are better than them, and of course that you are more competitive and skilled! you have spirit! :S
BTW, teams are not the important thing in this comp, is to choose a forum, and do a great work alone, that's all. It's a competition, and called dominance war...
I see totally unfair to count with the help of a buddy for concepts. I could ask help to some talented buddies to do the work in parts, so we could take advantage over other participants. This is something noone w0n't know, beacuse this is the internet. Imagine a team of 5 people doing 2 or more entries, with the work well reparted and working in "assembly line", perfect!. It's unfair...
There aren't colors with all this, i have seen ppl switching forums like bees with flowers... teams forums are an excuse to participate, to englobe more participants, and to make a great entry depend all of us.
I'm impatient to see what happens... and i wonder if i can stop playing games in my free time. I'm really fed up of 3d work and all its fucking monotony as to be making more of the same. How do you get enough motivation? i'm empty :poly141:
I can see a great injustice being done to someone with solid concept skills, who is planning to model, uv and texture it aswell. To me, it is just another critical phase that seperates pros from joes.
I honestly see saying yes as weakness. Besides. Its for fun, and you'd be learning more.
Cheers.
No Teams, groups or collaborations. Everything must be made by 1 single person