Am I stupid? (Serious qeustion) School stuff
polycounter lvl 18
Hello good citizens of polycount!
Warning, Incoming wall of text! <
I'm sorry In advance
I forget if school questions are supposed to be posted elsewhere or not here at all, but here goes.
I have recently started attending the Art Institute of Washington. The Media Arts and Animation Bachelors.
This course cost 80,000 mutha fuggin dollars.
I am not rich. By far.
That means after graduation I'd pay about 800 a month for ten years, for student loans.
I can bailout, losing not to much money.
I've attended a drum total of 3 days at the school, basically paying people about 46 dollars a minute to teach me things I already know. I know that these are the beginning days and intro classes. advanced classes coming later.
(I realize I'm probably starting to sound like and ass at this point)
I'd like to one get a job as environmental/character/concepter/3D-animator/artist. Then I dunno become the first human president of space, grow a bitchin mustache, put my brain in a robot body etc.
I'm pretty green when it come to 3D, And digital art in general, I have taught myself (with a lot of help from polycount! and other sites) I'm pretty self driven and have been able to learn pretty quickly.
Here's some pictures to help your eyes stop bleeding from text (old threads, not really watching any but the first)
Some 3D - first-ish 3Dcharacter
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=57583
Some 2D Digital Stuff
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=55663
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=56325
Ok... maybe your eyes are still bleeding
By no means am I saying I'm ready to go into the, biz I've got a long way to go for sure.
Uhmm.. so what the hell am I asking...
Does a degree make much difference in getting a job, or pay?
I've been told all kinds of things about starting in the industry, most say you start around 30000
Any advice, opinions would be great.
I guess I could also use a kick in the ass. I'll get the boots If necessary.
I apologize to anyone who took it upon themselves to read this wall of text.
I deeply appreciate your help and time. Thank you.
I'll probably have more questions later.
Warning, Incoming wall of text! <
I'm sorry In advance
I forget if school questions are supposed to be posted elsewhere or not here at all, but here goes.
I have recently started attending the Art Institute of Washington. The Media Arts and Animation Bachelors.
This course cost 80,000 mutha fuggin dollars.
I am not rich. By far.
That means after graduation I'd pay about 800 a month for ten years, for student loans.
I can bailout, losing not to much money.
I've attended a drum total of 3 days at the school, basically paying people about 46 dollars a minute to teach me things I already know. I know that these are the beginning days and intro classes. advanced classes coming later.
(I realize I'm probably starting to sound like and ass at this point)
I'd like to one get a job as environmental/character/concepter/3D-animator/artist. Then I dunno become the first human president of space, grow a bitchin mustache, put my brain in a robot body etc.
I'm pretty green when it come to 3D, And digital art in general, I have taught myself (with a lot of help from polycount! and other sites) I'm pretty self driven and have been able to learn pretty quickly.
Here's some pictures to help your eyes stop bleeding from text (old threads, not really watching any but the first)
Some 3D - first-ish 3Dcharacter
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=57583
Some 2D Digital Stuff
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=55663
http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=56325
Ok... maybe your eyes are still bleeding
By no means am I saying I'm ready to go into the, biz I've got a long way to go for sure.
Uhmm.. so what the hell am I asking...
Does a degree make much difference in getting a job, or pay?
I've been told all kinds of things about starting in the industry, most say you start around 30000
Any advice, opinions would be great.
I guess I could also use a kick in the ass. I'll get the boots If necessary.
I apologize to anyone who took it upon themselves to read this wall of text.
I deeply appreciate your help and time. Thank you.
I'll probably have more questions later.
Replies
Is that sarcasm or are you seriously going to spread yourself across that many disciplines?
I graduated from an AI in 2003, paid a fraction of what you're paying, and I still don't think it was worth the money.
Sorry I wasn't being clear, I mean basically I want to delve in those and see where I want to go from there I guess.
Did you go to the same school? Noticed your from Fairfax, I'm in fredericksburg,
Did you learn anything useful?
What course did you take?
How was getting a job?
-Sorry question barrage.
I pay 15 grand for 3 years... its really in-expensive compared to other schools, but that's all i was willing to pay for such a course that is still in its "new" age (Game design/ development).
that said- jason lavoie is right. 80 grand is a metric fuck ton of money, ESPECIALLY if your self driven. get a day job, come home- and learn yourself... The internet is an amazing tool.
2 small copper discs.
So that's what I did and it worked for me. Just thought I'd share. Best of luck in your decisions!
Its good to see you actively thinking about how you want to do things. Ill try to make this as cohesive as possible without to much random ramblings, so here we go:
Personally I have found from experience that when it comes to art jobs its what you can show in the folio that matters, not what school you went to and all that. School can help guide you if you lack proper motivation/resources for learning.
80k is a hell of a lot of money, especially for AI, no offense to anyone but most of the stuff that comes out of AI is sketchy at best, although like anythin else there are exceptions and ive seen some bangin' work from some AI grads. It all really comes down to each individual person and the way they think would be best to accomplish their goals.
I am self taught and it does feel good not having to pay for any student loans, some of my other co workers are still paying theirs off and are a year older than me. through some chance of pure luck ( absolutely no under the desk pole smokin'.....i swear) I was able to land a job at 20 and kinda took it from there for the last year or so.
If i was to take a program at school I probably would be either still paying it off or still going to school, which for me I wouldnt be able to stand. If you know you can find the resources for learning (polycount is a great start) and are good with tossing your work to the wolves and really listening and applying critiques then I would say that you could probably say screw it and save yourself an assload of cashola.
School however can provide structure and force you to keep working on your portfolio even if you dont really feel motivated, that 80k you gotta pay back will be a good source of motivation. Ive heard many tales of late night folio work and such from co-workers. remember, going to school does not guarantee a job nor does it flick a switch and make you a kick ass artist. from what ive seen, it doesnt really effect starting salary either.
One of the hardest things to do on your own though is to refine yout focus. you said you want to be a environmental/character/concepter/3D-animator/artist, I would choose one of those and focus on it non stop. trying to be a jack of all trades really slows you down and employers these days are almost always looking for people who specialize in certain areas, unless its a really small studio where you might wear multiple job hats.
Focus was my biggest problem, one day i would want to do a cool creature, another some concept work, another some environment work. once i decided to focus entirely on env work I rapidly improved in that area and landed a job. so think about what you really enjoy the most and giv'er on that, cause when you get hired you will be doing it day in day out so it better be something you really like doing.
So I dont know if this helped you or not, but long story short, I dont think anyone who really wants it and has access to the internet needs to go to school for art jobs, there are so many resources out there that are way more current and up to date than what schools like AI are teaching (atleast the one here in Vancouer from what i hear)
the ingredients for success are pretty much free man : Time, perseverance, ability to learn, listen and apply lessons to future work, and most important: a solid work eithic where you dont get bogged down by your failures, but move past it and keep on givin'er. that plus polycount, gnomon and eat 3d dvds etc :P( so its not all free)
all this is just advice/personal opionions blah blah blah, you gotta really consider what you think is the best path for yourself and stick to it.
cheers
If you need to have a Bachelors I suggest you go to the cheapest college you can find, for traditional art. Work on your portfolio all along, and you'll certainly be ready when you graduate (if you stay active on polycount and keep working).
Personally, I am a recent grad, and have a ton of debt from school. I only wish I would have thought things threw more than I did like you are now.
A degree by itself is worth shit, generally, and so is all the other commercial bull they cram into your business "how to be a pro" classes. All that matters is your work.
I spent more then half my time at AI teaching myself what the school should have been teaching, but was locked in more or less sense I'd already spent 10's of thousands their and couldn't justify leaving without a diploma.
The problem with AI is that they will teach the basics of a number of subjects, but past that the entire education falls apart. That's why the vast majority of AI grads have poor portfolios, they rely on the school to teach them what they're supposed to know but then just end up with a greatly extended set of lessons in the basics and nothing more.
Holy fuck, think again what ur doing to urself!
Not to brag or anything but I went to a school for 2 yrs getting payed to do it and then got myself a kick ass job...
Where I have been your school doesnt mean jack, its not like a company would go: Yeah we see this kick ass stuff you make but we are still not sure because you dont have this super school to back you up.
question: How long have you been doing 3d? and maybe art in general? Do you need this school?
800$ a month, hmm dont know about the wages over there or cost of living at the level you want to live on but i guess i pay 100-200$ a month for food. give me 3 months of student loans and i can live for 2 yrs.
Second, like everyone else is saying; $80k is WAY too much. Where did you get that number? Is that based on something you've calculated? I've never had a school tell me how much my degree would total in the end. I just completed my Bachelors in Computer Science and I only spent about $20k.
If $80k is truly what it will cost you, then get out now. If you want advanced learning, take some independent courses somewhere. If they'll allow you to sign up for them now(no pre-reqs), take them at your school, then drop.
The impression I've gotten from hanging around this place is, those who go to school, basically use it as time to create a portfolio. Beyond that, it doesn't seem like most people here go to school for design, and still manage to get into the industry. With graphics, you can prove yourself with your work, where most other careers require the degree as proof of talent.
If you REALLY want to go to school, use the time to get a different degree (as a backup), and focus on developing your graphics skills on your own.
Media Arts and Animation at Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale, it took me roughly 3 years to find a job because I was like most of the students = a mediocre jack of all trades. Good thing I had two semesters of Director, everyone knows how much employers love interactive portfolios!
I knew the degree was roughly $40k when I went but through a twist I only ended up saddled with about $15k in dept. If I had to pay $800 a month I don't think I could live here in Northern VA, it would definately have to be a multiple roomate type of living situation.
I went in 1998 and the majority of the student body was full of kids who either wanted to be Disney animators, in the Film VFX industry, or just drew anime all the time. I don't know how much the degree has changed but it's really an animation degree.
About 2006 I started focusing on environment art and about a year later got a job at Mythic
And an $80,000 loan doesnt mean that you pay 800 for 10 years, there's varying intrest rates for each and every loan as well, which would probably make it closer to 1000 for 18 or 20 years.
Point blank, they should show these people what and how long you will be paying for this for years to come, and they dont, because it will scare you off.
You do not need a piece of paper to get a job, just your portfolio. I got mine and 38k in debt still to pay off, and I learned a little there at school, but the vast majority was here and via IRC with the PC bunch. Schools, are usually behind the times and teach in a general manner, it's up to you to learn the in depth portions of a program.
to be honest only thing I feel that I got from AI in tampa was an open mind and more focused attention, which compared to the pros isn't that great at all. Im graduating with a 3.5 GPA or so and really don't feel like the most talented nor smartest guy out there.
I think your ahead of many people finding a community like this, but if you want some kind of degree education go to a local community college and get that from there for a lot cheeper. the rest can be done with training videos and on your own time (and with a sense of dignity).
-my two cents
if I could do it over I would take a loan out for just 10-15k (whatever I need to live for x amount of years) and just spend all that time learning (or fine get a job during that time if you want, whatever) non stop. it's a hell of a lot cheaper and you'll have all the time you want to practice. just takes a lot of self motivation but hey - how bad do you want the job?
That doesn't mean school isn't a good option for you, though. It's a good place to meet people and give you some structure. If you want to go the 4 year route, take your basic classes at CC and transfer credits to a better school. Whether that's a state university doing fine arts, or going to a private art school with a better rep like scad or aau is up to you. Keep in mind, though, that pretty much all schools that teach this stuff have a certain amount of bullshit going on. VFS, for the internet reputation it has gained, still puts out plenty of crap graduates, and sells people on unreal hopes and dreams. Gnomon might be a good option and animation mentor looks good if you want to do strictly animation.
I think if you can find the motivation within yourself to succeed, you will be fine without school. With all the people on this board and others that were disillusioned by their experiences, you'll have no shortage of help.
4 years Game Art and design
I pay close to 500 a month and only make 32 k a year
Pros:
My biggest pro is the friends I met and the contacts I made as a result of attending. It also keeps the whip cracking if you are getting lazy.
Cons:
I had 70k plus in loans when i got out.
Their career services don't do much to get you a job.
I felt like most of the time I knew more than the teachers did on subjects.
Don't go, get out while you can. Polycount will do wonders. If I wouldnt have spent countless hours on here and working my butt off in my free time, I wouldn't have landed a position.
Consider a smaller fine arts school with a light workload, and just live at home and work on 3d art with the goal of specializing in one area of 3d art.
Although i have yet to attain a job i think its the best decision i have ever made, although my parents and people that dont now anything about gameart think i screwed myself over not going to school, and no employer will hire me without a diploma :P
and yes you are stupid for considering even paying that much!
At some point in your life you may wind up with not having a degree holding you back...but I doubt it. This is entirely a skill-based industry, and the skills required are easily demonstrable, even to people who don't understand what exactly it is you do
It is, however, important to study. If you need school to get you to focus 40 hours of your week or more on learning your craft, then by all means, do it. But if you can focus 40 hours a week on learning this in your free time, then don't shell out the 80k for the degree.
Pretty much every art college sucks - they make their money off of passing kids who put in the bare minimum. They may employ people who can teach you, but most of those classes will not teach you much.
However, a school will provide an easy way to meet like-minded people who can give you valuable critique, and expose you to a number of talented and driven folks (who will still be outnumbered by the number of shitty artists).
Ultimately the degree is a piece of paper, nothing more. It has very little value in this industry. Making friendships and connections with folks who are also learning and very passionate about art, however, is a valuable experience that art school can provide. But so can polycount
Also, focus on your strength first, don't run around like a headless chicken trying to be a skilled artist in every discipline. If you really need a diploma, then get a fine arts degree. That's just my opinion.
quote from an animator friend "AM blows Ai out of the water, not even close"
If youre in a position to sponge a bit then get your head down seriously for a full year and youll grow a fuckton. As much as ive said that I hated my school I didnt hate the luxurys it afforded me -> 3 years without working to play games and work out what I wanted to do, I also didnt dig myself a deep hole either as I was living at home 2/3 years.
This being said though, if youre set on school it could be worth finding somewhere a damn sight cheaper as 80k is a mammoth amount!
Yes, if you want knowledge and not a degree. AM is a certificate just like VFS, and not a degree program.
I can directly relate to what PolyHertz is saying, about getting in too deep before realizing the truth. About halfway in, you start teaching yourself stuff because the teachers don't know it or understand it fully to teach competently. The only benefit of going to an Ai is a Bachelor's degree. Oh wait, you can get that at alot of other (read: CHEAPER) schools and learn so much more. If you want to do art, go to a fine arts school, and post here on PC for the 3D stuff. Digital art is still art: just with the word digital attached. Same fundamentals, different tools.
For that 80.000 dollar you could:
- buy a plane ticket to my country(1.000)
- rent a house for four years(20.000 )
- buy a decent car(10.000)
- go to a better school(from what I can make up from the replies)
- get a better degree(6.000 for the entire 4 years you'll be going to school, in my country you get a scholarship of about 150-250 a month, so you basically end up with more money after you completed your study)
- buy me some beers(30
- be able to legally drink, smoke pot, gamble, visit hookers(ewww), travel europe, meet me(PRICELESS, all of these could be bad for your health tough, especially the last one)
- buy a plane ticket back to the united states(1.000)
Hell, even after all that stuff you'd still have about 20.000 dollar left to spend
PS: I'd definately encourage you to go to a school, teaching yourself is great for your art skills, but it won't teach you anything about teamwork, project management, communication and all that stuff. It could give you a big advantage against other 'self trained' artists out there if you do it right, especially if you want to move up in the industry(the best art directors aren't always the guys who can draw the prettiest pictures in my experience)
Downloading the pandarian brewmaster skin may have just saved my ass a lot of trouble and debt.
No wonder when going to class I had a gut wrenching feeling I was digging myself a huge pit. Like a lot of people said I felt like I was paying people 46 dollars a minute to teach me how to count.
I'm going to catch a lot of shit from my parents for this...
Thank you all so much.
Could I ask a favor, if some people could post anything that would act as a flame shield as I may show this thread to my parents, they pretty firmly believe in getting a degree, suggesting that a portfolio is what really matters to get in to the business,... has not gone well in the past to say the least.
I think I need to definatly find a cheaper school at the very least.
I will probably post agian pretty soon, I'll be able to watch this thread a lot as I have some days off.
I've got a lot to think about.
As someone who has a brother who got his degree overseas - all of those subsidized scholarships, etc, aren't provided for non-citizens, so he couldn't fly over there to take advantage of it
This is tough, but you need to convince them. The main reason I went to Ai(I wanted to go to Gnomon at the time) was because my parents believed a 4 year degree meant something and "at least I could fall back on it if the art thing didn't work out". Well, if that's the attitude you're going to take, you might as well get the cheapest BA you can find because it means as much. Now that I've been out for a couple years, been working since mid '05, they realize that it wasn't the best choice in hindsight.
Not sure what it's going to take for them to understand, but take this example. I did hiring at my last job, and the first thing I looked at when we got an app was the portfolio. If it was good enough, then I looked at the resume, then the cover letter. When it came down to it, the applicant's education played no part in our decision. It was strictly portfolio and personality(interview).
I don't think you should necessarily give up on the idea of going to school, but the path you're on right now is not a good one. The placement rate of graduates is more like 5%, rather than the 95% or whatever they tell you.
80k for the skills to do
[ame]
[ame]
[ame]
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if you feel you HAVE to do a school get a traditional art course and master the bassics
Dear parents, your son is a highly self-motivated individual and is very confident in his choice to avoid AI (or whatever gaming school). He does not condone school, but rather, he based his decision on numerous advice given by people who actually work in the industry. He is confident that he will propel him self in the learning of all the technical and artistic aspects that is involved in producing quality, industry standard game art.
Financially, it is a very smart choice, as saving $80,000 on tuitions is just a good as earning $80,000 as any qualified accountant will tell you. This monetary prowess can only be attributed to the fantastic upbringing he must of had!
Though, his journey will be difficult and be filled with many obstacles, he has promised to tackle them responsibly and in a mature manner. He will seek employment to satisfy whatever monthly costs he may have, hence removing any finacial burden on you, the parents.
You, as the parents, should be very proud at raising such a fine son. A son who has grown up to make such a mature decision as this!
The School is only about 3000 a year for a 2 year course. Much cheaper.
Tomorrow I'm finding out how much money AI is going to wretch from me and face the flames when I tell my parents.
Wish me luck.
Now start a Jesters work thread, join some competitions, fight for Polycount in the Dominance war!
Cya around debt free! :P
This is a brilliant move. You can learn for free, everything you would have at AI, here on PC and the internet in general. Except here you're actually learning from industry pros. Just make sure to stay motivated, keep pushing yourself and do atleast one art related task every day, even if its just a sketch, a little work on a model, just do something.
Which better school do you refer to? Im just curious