I'm quite new to whole 3d CG and now I've got some issues with shape in figure 1 and my test is shown on figure 2. My question is if I have to use more details on it(more sided tube) or is there another option? I want to add more platforms to hold the end of axle like you see on second figure but its hard to edit it with for example 40 sided tube because of so much polygons.
Hello! I`m a noob in this black magic craft of "hard surface" modeling so I will like to ask for some help or advice. Im trying to model a small holes in a Cylinder but with out to get strange artifacts in the main cilinder body, and I`m not getting it
tnx! Perna I guess I`m getting the concept... first I tried to "cut the hole" right in the midle of the edge. but that was a worst end result than the cut hole in the center of the plane... so I asume that you are telling me that first I need a much more dense sided cylinder to start, right?
@perna tnx for your help! but the more I look the link you post the less I understand it. any way tnx for trying to help I guess I´m far more noob than I imagine. need to keep practicing
@perna tnx for your help! but the more I look the link you post the less I understand it. any way tnx for trying to help I guess I´m far more noob than I imagine. need to keep practicing
i feel the same. And i feel so bad about it, because Perna is trying his hardest to help us noobs!
Would you consider as a bad habit to make a quick mockup of a model, eye balling everything, cut non consistent edge support... and then, once you know more precisely how your loops have to be organized, start over the final model, preserving curves and stuff ?
I find difficult to not be empirical sometimes, when you have different curves and hard breaks. Probably because i don't have a lot of subd experience too.
I am really new here , and working on a game project with UDK , but modularity is not my best friend for now.
Im learning modularity and technic for make it good, the basic logic is in my head now, thank god, but i have some problems with retopo, and modelling it.
@perna@Noors@wirrexx Even I know I`m a noob, I`m not afraid to engage dificult modeling task, even if I know it will take me twice time then a experienced modeler. I came up with a personal way o cheating : I model the shape in Zbrush Shadow box or inside Max with booleans, and the I use retopo tools to layout a consisten edge flow to suport the final mesh... the same proces for organic modeling aplied to Hard surface. It is not the best way, it takes twice time, but it get the job done... and in the process of laying out new topo, I understand some things about proper polyflow and edge suport
Yeah subd requires a twisted evil mind (no wonder why perna excels at it) , less intuitive than zbrush or booleans for defining shapes. Zbrush comes to a point where doing a hard surface mockup is as fast as subd, kinda like boolean. Not forced to focus on shape and topology at the same time. I don't see cheating here, just clever use of your tools.
I'm not confident enough in my zbrush skills tho, i still prefer to edit control points.
Btw, if i'm not mistaken, the shading issue in your cylinder is due to your scene using 2 default lights instead of 1
configure viewports > lighting and shadows > 1 light
Something to keep in mind is that ZBrush is fast to put something together but offers nothing in terms of iteration. If someone wants a change, you'll be rebuilding it again. In proper subd, you can remove a few edge loops and iterate a LOT faster.
Yeah sure, + max modifier pile. Depends of the problematic, i don't think there are general rules. If it helps, it helps.
Good luck to make that Paul Pepera cam in zbrush hehe.
Make it flat first with 48-64 segments, then add a modifier to make it rounded (like FFD(cyl)). You can also use soft-selection to make it rounded but then can't change the shape as easily afterwards.
This is assuming you use max. But I'm sure there are ways to do similar things in other software.
I'm having a total nightmare modelling this part, if I use a polysphere and work the shape out it starts pinching at the corners. Please help!
This is how I modeled it:
- Cylinder (many sides);
- Inset the top side and raise the center vertex (with soft selection) to create the dome shape;
- cut the hole out;
- delete three quarters of the mesh;
- optimize the quarter (delete useless loops, collapse edges etc.)
- symmetry on x and y axes
- done!
Earlier in this thread, I asked how to do this shape. Someone pointed me in a good direction, but I came up with a slightly different solution. I thought I'd post it up here for documentations sake.
Her's a shape that i have trouble with wrapping my head around. I want the 3 small cylinders and the large outer ring to be one piece. Hardest part is for me that the small cylinders stick out a bit on the top, also keeping the inner edges of the large ring relatively hard.
I guess i could just brute force it with lots of geo and bevels but was wondering if there is a more elegant solution.
The closest i have found to this problem in this thread is a revolver drum but it's inverted and not exactly what i want to achieve.
I am practicing some hard surface stuff in Maya. But i have some topology and pinching problems. Here are the screenshots. Can you help me to understand what i am doing wrong? I am also adding the .obj file. Thanks in advance.
Theory is all nice and dandy. But sometimes a practical demonstration is necessary for it to *click* when it comes to slightly more complex shapes then your two examples, especialy for us folks who haven't yet modelled a plethora of different things. So i don't think this thread is going away anytime soon even when it all boils down to the same fundamentals.
Either way your contribution to this thread is highly appreciated. I'll give this shape another try tonight and post my results. At least then if it's still borked you can tell me exactly where my brain has computation errors of the provided info.
Indeed it is! And that was the sort of kick in the right direction i needed.
Please don't get frustrated when we ask such questions and have trouble to understanding while we're still in the middle of learning the skills and most importantly lacking the experience.
Of course i'm confused from time time. Otherwise i wouldn't post in this thread. I'm sure it's the same for many others. I would compare that with muscle memory that hasn't built yet. Only it concerns my thinking process to modeling. I do practice and my modeling is getting better and quicker. But i'm not out of the stage yet where i don't have to think hard about some things that are second nature to someone with more experience.
That starts with simple things like how many cylinder sides are necessary for this shape. You have a pretty good idea about it without even thinking much about it. I on the other hand still look at it and think, ok ther's 3 smaller cylinders so i can model it in thirds. So will 36 sides do for the outer ring or will that cause some pinching around the inner edge when merged with the smaller one? 72 maybe? But then maybe that's too much fiddle work and i'm thinking too complicated (sure felt so). Same questions for the smaller cylinders. etc. So your demonstration is a big help to understand what must change in my thinking approach.
When you show it like that it makes me jealous I don't have live primitives! I also liked the diagram of what sub-d is actually doing to the mesh on a previous page, thanks.
What gets frustrating is not questions, obviously, but when someone dismisses theory and demands a demonstration. It's not just that it's lazy (I'm talking generally now), but it hurts the artist as well, as that kind of entitled attitude means always being a follower.
I think you are projecting a bit. I know you talk generally but certainly that is aimed at me aswell. The truth is i messed around with this shape for two hours last night after work. Not because i'm lazy but because i want to get better. Likewise i post here not out of entitlement but for the same reason that i want to get better. Maybe it's my fault that it came off as such tho because i was too embarassed to show my pathetic attempts.
Someone less experienced will often feel overwhelmed and over-complicate things, thinking that there are all sorts of aspects to something that they're missing, when in fact it's quite straight-forward.
Exactly. And in my case your wonderful illustration and little video was much more eye opening then the two pictures from the page before. I actualy think i understand what they are about just how to apply it in every practical situation didn't click with me yet. I even learned something new about modifiers from the video that i didn't thought of before. So please don't let it discourage you when people basicly ask the same stuff over and over again.
This is model from a car, its not subd but it has so many polygons, how do you model this?
Im thinking one way could be making it subd and then optimize it (delete edge loops).
it's actually very common for car guys to only use subd on localized sections. you make the main curves, smooth them out, add edge bevels and details and optimize. it's especially common in simulation products where the car bodies don't use normal maps, and instead use a mesh that's 100,000 tris or higher.
This is how I modeled it:
- Cylinder (many sides);
- Inset the top side and raise the center vertex (with soft selection) to create the dome shape;
- cut the hole out;
- delete three quarters of the mesh;
- optimize the quarter (delete useless loops, collapse edges etc.)
- symmetry on x and y axes
- done!
I modeled an interesting shape last night. It was a bit of a challenge and I cheated a bit with floaters, but the detail will be pretty small on the final model (and hidden under the model). If anyone wants to try taking on the challenge, have fun.
This is awesome stuff, Pern. I can kind of visualize how things will smooth ( I usually visualize a vert in the middle of the edge and imagine the existing verts moving inwards a bit - it's not entirely accurate but it helps) - My question though, is how did you put together the cage in the top image so accurately?
You can assume that people will subdivide till they got almost a perfect circle, and between iteration 3 or... 8, radius won't change much, so i'm not sure the number of iterations is so important. I wonder if a script could make a "geopoly" from your lowpoly so the subd is a perfect circle, or matches a specific spline.
I have seen you mention a couple of times that applying a bend after turbosmooth is bad practice.
Is that because in your opinion, everything you make that way could have been made without that "trick" (like in the examples/pictures you posted), or are there other reasons for that.
And just wanted to mention that you posting here is really awesome, I have fixed/improved a couple of things, or things that in the future will be handling differently because off all those tips/remarks you made
The only times I will use 3 or above is if it's a very simple and large shape with a smooth curve. Also I prefer to subdiv through artifacts than redo topology, no reason to spend more time on something you can get rid of in a second. Also sometimes when using the edge creasing feature in softimage you have to smooth 3 times to get it to crease well, but it allows you to keep the topology simpler.
well you could calculate the limit surface of the catmull-clark subd realtively easy, either recursively, inputing the amount of iterations you will do, or non recursively to get a theorethical limit surface.
How would you model a cage for a nice hemisphered capsule ? There's probably been solutions here, didn't find them. I'd like to NOT use spherify. I can kind of manage with 8 sides, gets harder with 16.
perna: I was bored and I tried to replicate the same thing but my capsule is extruding the opposite way. Its bothering me that i can't seem to get it to be like yours lol.
edit: oh lol I forgot the wire parameter. Did you put a wire parameter on the symmetry translation on Z axis?
onion: Yes, the symmetry Z is [Face Extrude modifier].Amount/2.
However, half the height of the initial box also needs to be taken into account, and I can't remember how to gracefully access the two pieces of data in one wire formula (and have the updates work correctly)... so I ended up using a hack with XForm translating the whole thing.. but that's not exactly ideal.. so, anyone? I'm sure I've done this successfully in the past
could an attribute holder with dummy attributes work? sort of as an inbetween to do the face extrude/2 and then add the original sphere's radius. plus you can make a prettier interface to control all the paramters . I'll give it a try should no one else do it before I have time to.
Still i'm not getting this. After reading and re reading Perna's other SUBD posts in which I understand, this still stumps me. How is looking at this suppose to help my sub D skills? I get it somewhat still not understanding the full grasp of this example. Any help would be appreciated.
Replies
Don't be afraid to whack some more polys in there, it's a high poly anyways.
What I`m doing wrong?!
tnx for your time and patiences
[IMG][/img]
i feel the same. And i feel so bad about it, because Perna is trying his hardest to help us noobs!
I find difficult to not be empirical sometimes, when you have different curves and hard breaks. Probably because i don't have a lot of subd experience too.
I am really new here , and working on a game project with UDK , but modularity is not my best friend for now.
Im learning modularity and technic for make it good, the basic logic is in my head now, thank god, but i have some problems with retopo, and modelling it.
Here is the pict:
http://kepfeltoltes.hu/view/130925/Elem01_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg
How should i model this?
I thinking in two way simple plane or box modelling, or make it from splines, but spline is still not comfortable to me .
Can you help me out guys?
Thanks!
Viktor
I'm not confident enough in my zbrush skills tho, i still prefer to edit control points.
Btw, if i'm not mistaken, the shading issue in your cylinder is due to your scene using 2 default lights instead of 1
configure viewports > lighting and shadows > 1 light
Good luck to make that Paul Pepera cam in zbrush hehe.
This is assuming you use max. But I'm sure there are ways to do similar things in other software.
I'm looking old chap, this stuff is some high tech next level shit. lol
This is how I modeled it:
- Cylinder (many sides);
- Inset the top side and raise the center vertex (with soft selection) to create the dome shape;
- cut the hole out;
- delete three quarters of the mesh;
- optimize the quarter (delete useless loops, collapse edges etc.)
- symmetry on x and y axes
- done!
I guess i could just brute force it with lots of geo and bevels but was wondering if there is a more elegant solution.
The closest i have found to this problem in this thread is a revolver drum but it's inverted and not exactly what i want to achieve.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x98ol2zrlxvtfay/01.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zxssok8qsqy2ao5/02.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iuyxch76jlxsxpg/03.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyiidtew6apw4yr/04.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oupc0i7z9pqfmc3/05.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vp1wnk9uu8wouxv/06.jpg
obj file.
Theory is all nice and dandy. But sometimes a practical demonstration is necessary for it to *click* when it comes to slightly more complex shapes then your two examples, especialy for us folks who haven't yet modelled a plethora of different things. So i don't think this thread is going away anytime soon even when it all boils down to the same fundamentals.
Either way your contribution to this thread is highly appreciated. I'll give this shape another try tonight and post my results. At least then if it's still borked you can tell me exactly where my brain has computation errors of the provided info.
Indeed it is! And that was the sort of kick in the right direction i needed.
Please don't get frustrated when we ask such questions and have trouble to understanding while we're still in the middle of learning the skills and most importantly lacking the experience.
Of course i'm confused from time time. Otherwise i wouldn't post in this thread. I'm sure it's the same for many others. I would compare that with muscle memory that hasn't built yet. Only it concerns my thinking process to modeling. I do practice and my modeling is getting better and quicker. But i'm not out of the stage yet where i don't have to think hard about some things that are second nature to someone with more experience.
That starts with simple things like how many cylinder sides are necessary for this shape. You have a pretty good idea about it without even thinking much about it. I on the other hand still look at it and think, ok ther's 3 smaller cylinders so i can model it in thirds. So will 36 sides do for the outer ring or will that cause some pinching around the inner edge when merged with the smaller one? 72 maybe? But then maybe that's too much fiddle work and i'm thinking too complicated (sure felt so). Same questions for the smaller cylinders. etc. So your demonstration is a big help to understand what must change in my thinking approach.
I think you are projecting a bit. I know you talk generally but certainly that is aimed at me aswell. The truth is i messed around with this shape for two hours last night after work. Not because i'm lazy but because i want to get better. Likewise i post here not out of entitlement but for the same reason that i want to get better. Maybe it's my fault that it came off as such tho because i was too embarassed to show my pathetic attempts.
Exactly. And in my case your wonderful illustration and little video was much more eye opening then the two pictures from the page before. I actualy think i understand what they are about just how to apply it in every practical situation didn't click with me yet. I even learned something new about modifiers from the video that i didn't thought of before. So please don't let it discourage you when people basicly ask the same stuff over and over again.
Im thinking one way could be making it subd and then optimize it (delete edge loops).
Awesome examples perna! Wish I had the time to make a good wiki page out of this thread, so many great tips in here.
The model is from Forza, so i guess they maybe use CAD files
This is awesome stuff, Pern. I can kind of visualize how things will smooth ( I usually visualize a vert in the middle of the edge and imagine the existing verts moving inwards a bit - it's not entirely accurate but it helps) - My question though, is how did you put together the cage in the top image so accurately?
Only on rare occasions.
I have seen you mention a couple of times that applying a bend after turbosmooth is bad practice.
Is that because in your opinion, everything you make that way could have been made without that "trick" (like in the examples/pictures you posted), or are there other reasons for that.
And just wanted to mention that you posting here is really awesome, I have fixed/improved a couple of things, or things that in the future will be handling differently because off all those tips/remarks you made
I'll go with a cube/turbosmooth 1 or 2/spherify/turbosmooth.
edit: oh lol I forgot the wire parameter. Did you put a wire parameter on the symmetry translation on Z axis?
I was making this exact thing with wired params just a couple months ago. Max can be really fun sometimes.
could an attribute holder with dummy attributes work? sort of as an inbetween to do the face extrude/2 and then add the original sphere's radius. plus you can make a prettier interface to control all the paramters
Still i'm not getting this. After reading and re reading Perna's other SUBD posts in which I understand, this still stumps me. How is looking at this suppose to help my sub D skills? I get it somewhat still not understanding the full grasp of this example. Any help would be appreciated.