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How The F*#% Do I Model This? - Reply for help with specific shapes - (Post attempt before asking)

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  • admiralpixel15
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    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    @Neox Thanks for the advice and tips Sir. For instance there is this complex shape, should I model it as one part by combining different primitives or just lay it down there where it's supposed to be (like just penetrate it from the model)? This is where I get confused every time when it comes to modeling. Also every time I see detailed and complex shapes I always get intimidated and think that I cannot do it. I get jelous of people who can do such complicated, complex and detailed work (please see image to get my point). Anyways thanks in advance sir that really helps. :) 
  • Neox
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    Neox high dynamic range
    you will not manage to do this as a beginner :)

    just give it time, go from simple to complex, from rough to detailled, break down complex shapes to simpler things you can handle more easily.

    just give it time and stay at it
  • jengy
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    jengy polycounter lvl 7
    Filip5 said:
    Hey guys, I am having really hard time modeling viking ship hull. I tired it, but I didn't get even close to desired shape. Any ideas how to model side planks and that curvature ? 




    One thing that helps me time after time: learn about the actual structure and construction of real world objects.

    How was this ship made in real life? If we made these objects hundreds of years ago, then there is already a process in place that we can reproduce digitally and we probably have records of how it was made.

    My suggestion: watch a video about and read the Wikipedia page concerning the thing you are making. Learn, at least superficially, how this object is crafted. Learn the vocabulary and anatomy of the object you're studying.

    As a plus, you get to learn some history, engineering, and carry that knowledge into the future.

    Here's a page I found that might be helpful.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_ships
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinker_(boat_building)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortise_and_tenon
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3c/9d/83/3c9d83670a7920b60971806345a0c491.jpg

    Drilling down in Wikipedia (clicking links to learn terms you don't know) helps build a better picture, IMO.

    Also, learning about your object lets you release some artistic anxiety and get into a mode where you are breaking the object into smaller parts.

    For this particular object, I would start by just getting top, side and 3/4 reference of a similar ship and doing a simple 3D blockout to start. Ship blueprints exists for most types of ships, and finding that would help a lot.

    Good luck!

    Here's a bonus image of a hull comparison:


  • mrlafle
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    mrlafle null
    @Neox Thanks for the advice and tips Sir. For instance there is this complex shape, should I model it as one part by combining different primitives or just lay it down there where it's supposed to be (like just penetrate it from the model)? This is where I get confused every time when it comes to modeling. Also every time I see detailed and complex shapes I always get intimidated and think that I cannot do it. I get jelous of people who can do such complicated, complex and detailed work (please see image to get my point). Anyways thanks in advance sir that really helps. :) 
    As a beginner, I certainly wouldn't try modeling every little detail on something this complex. Like Neox said, you can always break down complex structures like this into simpler shapes to make it easier. What I would do is build relatively simple geometry, and just convey the tiny details in the texture. If you're modeling for a game, that's most likely what you'll be doing anyways to make it easy to render.

    Just keep practicing and stuff like this will be no problem eventually!
  • Filip5
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    Filip5 polycounter lvl 7
    jengy said:

    Here's a page I found that might be helpful.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_ships
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinker_(boat_building)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortise_and_tenon
    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/3c/9d/83/3c9d83670a7920b60971806345a0c491.jpg


    For this particular object, I would start by just getting top, side and 3/4 reference of a similar ship and doing a simple 3D blockout to start. Ship blueprints exists for most types of ships, and finding that would help a lot.

    Good luck!


    Thank you for pointing out those things, jengy. I found some ship plans around building a viking ships, but many of those shapes differ as you pointed out. I tried to model that around 4 times, but smoothing ruined it every time, so I putted it aside until I get more experience for such models...
  • jengy
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    jengy polycounter lvl 7
    Filip5 said:
    Thank you for pointing out those things, jengy. I found some ship plans around building a viking ships, but many of those shapes differ as you pointed out. I tried to model that around 4 times, but smoothing ruined it every time, so I putted it aside until I get more experience for such models...
    Can you post some screenshots of the smoothed model? A visual example will help with contextual feedback.
    Also, what tools are you using to model? (Maya, Zbrush, Blender?)
  • Callaby32
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    Callaby32 polycounter lvl 5
    Hi, I'am having a few problems trying to make a perfectly smooth pipe shape with this pattern cut into it using Maya, if any one has any solutions or can help it would be greatly appreciated cheers.. 
  • iacdxb
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    iacdxb polycounter lvl 5
    Hi,
    Any idea how can I do this to get hexagon sphere...?
    Is it possible from sphere shape...?

    Thanks.


  • MaxHoek
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    MaxHoek polycounter lvl 8
    @iacfxb please read the thread title before you post. anyways here are two links:
    http://www.giyf.com/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AOUTy2BlAk
  • MaxHoek
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    MaxHoek polycounter lvl 8
    @Callaby32 read the past few pages of this thread and you will find a ton of this kind of questions. Try to use this tips and tricks, than you will find a easy solution by yourself.
  • iacdxb
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    iacdxb polycounter lvl 5
    Thanks guys.

    ...
  • KarlP
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro sublime tool
    its hard to understand what you intend. 
    First i would recomend showing results with a material without the wireframe and high specular value to see modeling errors , then post a concept on what you are trying to achieve , because i dont know what you are asking exactly :( 
  • KarlP
  • Ausonian
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    Ausonian polycounter lvl 11
    @KarlP
    Your questions regarding edge flowing are a bit generic. The method of modeling something is subjective, you could start from a plane, or block out the entire shape and start detailing later. The first thing I notice about your model is that it is one piece; there is no reason to complicate things like that (unless you plan to print the model, but even in that case, I don't think it's necessary to have one single closed mesh). You should post some specifinc shape you are having trouble with, otherwise I don't think you will get much help here.
  • KarlP
  • admiralpixel15
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    admiralpixel15 polycounter lvl 2
    Is this the best way to approach a square inset with hard corners on a cylinder? Or are there any other methods/techniques that produce the same result? I just can't find the other comments with image/.gif solutions regarding about square insets on curved surfaces. Thanks in advance.
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro sublime tool
    Is this the best way to approach a square inset with hard corners on a cylinder? Or are there any other methods/techniques that produce the same result? I just can't find the other comments with image/.gif solutions regarding about square insets on curved surfaces. Thanks in advance.
    first page of this thread has the answer you seek , by Shepeiro.
  • KarlP
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    KarlP vertex
    perna said:
    KarlP said:
    Can you elaborate on why you view the single block solution I have as over complicated? Is it simply the challenge of meshing together fundamentally different shapes so why do that?

    You've constructed the mesh much as you construct sentences: In a manner convoluted and obscure.

    These are some of the things going wrong:
    1. Ambitions surpassing abilities (make something simpler)
    2. Not matching the concept art (overlay the two to get a perfect match)
    3. Going straight to hi-poly (block everything out first)
    4. Viewing inefficient practices as "a challenge"?
    5. Trying to learn or prep for sculpting already (master the fundamentals of sub-d first)
    6. Building everything as one piece (clearly the real-life object would be made out of individual pieces)
    7. Outlandish conceits (After nearly two decades in 3D this is the first time I've seen a poem about edge flow)
    8. Too much focus on technical aspects (just learn to make shapes for now)
    9. Not posting in the correct thread (this one's for specific and concise stumbling blocks in 3D)
    Thanks Pern... I appreciate the help
  • ActionDawg
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    ActionDawg greentooth
    You really shouldn't snip your posts in a thread about learning, @KarlP.
  • KarlP
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    KarlP vertex
    Ok, I have refocused and would still like your help,

    I appreciate that this question has been asked a lot but the answers dont seem to go very far for me.

    So this is my take on the "how do I harden this edge" question.

    The block out, trying to respect topology flow using a control loop before extruding


    Additional support loops added with swift loop tool


    Changes I made to the support loop flow beyond the edge I wanted hardened


    Turbosmooth 1 itr


    Turbosmooth 1 itr, high spec material

    The questions
    1. Have I finally understood "supporting the edge" and "use more geo"?
    2. I used swift loop and ring connect but I would like better control of how tight my support loops are, any pointers on how I could better do that?
    3. Any further suggestions?

    Thanks all
  • KarlP
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    KarlP vertex
    somedoggy said:
    You really shouldn't snip your posts in a thread about learning, @KarlP.


    Yes, understood, but the comments were right so I reposted with a better focus, there was no value in the previous posts.
  • cookedpeanut
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    cookedpeanut polycounter lvl 11
    KarlP said:
    somedoggy said:
    You really shouldn't snip your posts in a thread about learning, @KarlP.


    Yes, understood, but the comments were right so I reposted with a better focus, there was no value in the previous posts.
    That's your assumption. Maybe the next person is in the same boat and by understanding your methodology they're able to also "better focus" by following your train of thought. Generally bad to snip as said, I mean half this page is just full-stops now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro sublime tool
    yeah, it would be a good way to have newbies etc see "what not to do" , now its only fullstops with no context ( wich make the replies also have no context , wich invalidates the time that people took to reply to you ).

     Thats like those people that make dumb comments and then delete them because they are too afraid to "look bad" , when everyone knows they are jerks already :P 

    Live and learn !
  • Ausonian
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    Ausonian polycounter lvl 11
    @KarlP
    To control how tight your support loops are, you simply move them, it's as simple as that.
    In your exercise, it's useless to push back and forth the loops to "conform with the flow", since they reside on a totally flat surface and don't contribute to the shape; and your mesh doesn't have to be all quads :)
  • Sunray
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    Sunray polycounter lvl 7
    I'm trying to model a belt but I've got no idea how to get the holes in and keeping my shading good. Any help would be appreciated. 
  • KarlP
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    KarlP vertex
    Thanks @Joao Sapiro, Yeah I understand and actually that was part of the reason for snipping, it seemed like I was off to a very bad start and I didnt want any new potential commenters to write me off straight away, I guess it didnt achieve the desired affect. I do appreciate the time everyone takes to post here and you are right "Live and learn" :-)

    @Ausonian
    Ok, I probably didnt use the best example as the surfaces are flat (also touched on by Perna), but if it were a curve I am on the right track?. Yeah I still have the "quads or die" mentality, though I have seen some really good tutorials about pentagons in forming a control loop. Thanks for the input Ausonian, I appreciate the guidance

    perna said:

    1. I have no idea what "supporting the edge" means in this context or how you would qualify for understanding that. You'll have to be less vague. You have not understood "use more geo", as that refers to modeling curved surfaces, which are completely absent in your model.

    2. Tools and results are two entirely different things. What does "better control" mean?  

    3. You write lengthy posts with lots of images yet they end up frustratingly vague and mystical, discussing high-flying abstract concepts when you ought instead adopt a more pragmatic approach. It seems you lack a concrete grasp of the concepts you touch on, such as "model flow", a term (among several) you seem to throw out more or less randomly, or with disproportionate priority. Your mesh construction seems to be following a bunch of hippie new-age concepts that you don't actually understand but somehow still feel compelled to adhere to.

    There's nothing mystical or artistic to what you're trying to learn. It's a technical craft with absolute rules. You'll greatly benefit if you stop overthinking the mystical aspects. Currently both your posts and your meshes seem to have been constructed under the influence of cocaine. Slow down and start with the basics.
    Hi @Perna, I am a learner on here, I appreciate that you have 20+ years of experience in the industry but I do not. "The concepts" to me are only now becoming concrete, there has been lot of hard work from me to get this knowledge, everyone seems to have their own unique way of doing things and explaining them, sometimes these methods even appear, as a newbie, to be conflicting.

    In response to point 1.
    Some definitions I have learned from across the sources I have used
    a. support edge - the edges added to control the hardness of the edge loop of polygons
    b. control loop - a loop of polygons that defines the way fill loops will run around the model. These loops typically have e-poles (5 edged verts) and n-poles (3 edged verts) which change the "flow of the topology"
    c. fill loops/fill edges - loops of polygons that add geometry for padding (for example between two control loops, I understand thats good practice) or to provide more verts/edges for further detail
    Please feel free to correct my understanding

    In response to point 2.
    What I wanted better control on was the tightness of the support loops to the actual edge of the geometry. I could use swift loop tool but then I am placing by hand which is not consistent. I could use ring and then connect but again 90% on the tool slider for one loop of polys is not the same as 90% on the tool slider on another.
    The question was - How do I get better control over these tools so that I can consistently set my support edges to obtain uniform tightness, if thats what I want?

    In response to point 3.
    Ok point taken, from here on, I will reduce my word count and wont post more than one image per post.
    It is comments like this that make learning this craft so difficult, "I need a more pragmatic approach", that comment along with most of what you actually say means 3/5th of nothing to me. Are you here responding to my posts to help me or to mock me? It seems the latter, particularly your penultimate sentence, I am not on cocaine and to put it bluntly, that is offensive and insulting.
    If you dont want to help or comment on the modeling techniques then dont. If I am as difficult to have here as you are making out then have me banned. I would like your help, I respect your experience and position in the community, but I dont need your help.

    In response to the final paragraph
    The first piece of information that has actually been useful to me. I will slow it down and I think you are right possibly I need to be more technical about it all, which suites me, I am more of a numbers person. Thanks for the help in that regard.


  • KarlP
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    KarlP vertex
    Sunray said:
    I'm trying to model a belt but I've got no idea how to get the holes in and keeping my shading good. Any help would be appreciated. 
    @Sunray, have you seem this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKtncTvmQJc or similar? It has helped me.
    Also one thing that seems to be key is the number of sides to the hole, looks like you have 8 and that seems to be a good start.
    Finally, this connectivity should help, it spreads the edges evenly around the hole so that when you subdiv it averages their positions and produces a smoother result.

  • DeathstrokeFTW
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    DeathstrokeFTW polycounter lvl 4
    Hello!
    I wanted to make a star citizen environment for my portfolio but I came across a problem while I was modelling the door. Now most of the doors have curved edges and they are easy to make but when I was modelling the door whenever I used the inset, the curved edges began to collapse with each other but in the references, it shows no signs of them overlapping :/

                 
  • Sunray
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    Sunray polycounter lvl 7
    KarlP said:
    Sunray said:
    I'm trying to model a belt but I've got no idea how to get the holes in and keeping my shading good. Any help would be appreciated. 
    @Sunray, have you seem this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKtncTvmQJc or similar? It has helped me.
    Also one thing that seems to be key is the number of sides to the hole, looks like you have 8 and that seems to be a good start.
    Finally, this connectivity should help, it spreads the edges evenly around the hole so that when you subdiv it averages their positions and produces a smoother result.

    Thanks man I will give it a try when I continue working on the belt.
  • rage288
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    rage288 polycounter lvl 6
    dont get whait sniping means :pensive:

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    [Deleted User] insane polycounter
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  • DeathstrokeFTW
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    DeathstrokeFTW polycounter lvl 4
    @DeathstrokeFTW - In the reference that's not all one piece of continuous geometry - geo is stuck into other geo.  Inset might not be the only op you want to use - If I were doing this I'd use inset in some cases but also make my smallest and largest part then bridge the geo in between.  That would give me more control over the end result.

    @Sunray - If you look at the example from @perna you can see there's only a 4 sided hole, that's really all you need for this.  You also need to contain that hole with supportive loops and keep the period of loops the same throughout the belt so it can bend uniformly.  Making a flat hole (of any amount of sides) does not fully solve the problem you are having.
    D'oh
    I should have thought about making multiple meshes and bridging them. Thanks for the nudge!
    But if anyone else has a more efficient way of handling that then please let me know xD
  • rage288
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    rage288 polycounter lvl 6
    @rage288 - I think Snipping?  And in this context - editing your post to "..." after the fact
    THX :p
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    [Deleted User] insane polycounter
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  • KarlP
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    KarlP vertex
    rage288 said:
    dont get whait sniping means :pensive:

    Editing your posts to remove all the content :-)
  • KarlP
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    KarlP vertex
    @TeriyakiStyle, thanks for the input.
    Particpating here is part of trying to make those decisions on what to believe.
    In regards to my answer to sunray, I will be more accurate in the future with any questions or explanations. I do know how subd works mathematically and why 8 works best.

    Thanks again for taking the time to point me in a better direction.
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    [Deleted User] insane polycounter
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  • KarlP
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    KarlP vertex
    @TeriyakiStyle
    The rule is number or faces at the point of placement +4 - reference: this forum, wirrex sept 2015.
    Reason: the goal is to produce quads using this formula/method you can support the hole geometry with a ring of quads.

    Subdivision: a vertex of a quad face is split to create a new quad face. The centre of the face is the position of the original vertex. The newly created vertices are position around this centre via a weighted average with the surrounding vertices of the orignal quads in the unsubdivided mesh.
    Why do we want quad? Because quads will create quads when subdivided. Also quads deform well in animations due to the two degrees of freedom.

    Feel free to correct me, apologies for the language used, it is wordy.
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro sublime tool
    KarlP said:
    @TeriyakiStyle
    The rule is number or faces at the point of placement +4 - reference: this forum, wirrex sept 2015.
    Reason: the goal is to produce quads using this formula/method you can support the hole geometry with a ring of quads.

    Subdivision: a vertex of a quad face is split to create a new quad face. The centre of the face is the position of the original vertex. The newly created vertices are position around this centre via a weighted average with the surrounding vertices of the orignal quads in the unsubdivided mesh.
    Why do we want quad? Because quads will create quads when subdivided. Also quads deform well in animations due to the two degrees of freedom.

    Feel free to correct me, apologies for the language used, it is wordy.
    Tris will also create quads when subdivided...the rule "quad only" when its spewed out without even trying to understand it will only do harm instead of helping. I think that what you mean by the 8 sided thingy is that when you subdivide its in the power of 4 ? altho thats tottally irrelevant when modeling .

    The hole with quads can be done with 4, 5 , 6 sides, its irrelevant, but damn i have no idea what you are saying. i get a headache just reading what you write.

    I seriously recomend you work first on the way of how you communicate before attempting to ask for help because i guarantee you that nobody will understand what you try to say and simply dismiss you as a troll or a weirdo.
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    [Deleted User] insane polycounter
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  • Ausonian
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    Ausonian polycounter lvl 11
    KarlP said:
    @Ausonian
    Ok, I probably didnt use the best example as the surfaces are flat (also touched on by Perna), but if it were a curve I am on the right track?. Yeah I still have the "quads or die" mentality, though I have seen some really good tutorials about pentagons in forming a control loop. Thanks for the input Ausonian, I appreciate the guidance


    Depends on what you are modeling, only practice can improve you, not theory; post something you really are having difficult with, so someone can help you.
    Lastly, tris aren't evil, either :)
  • DeathstrokeFTW
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    DeathstrokeFTW polycounter lvl 4
    I have no clue why I'm getting freaked by doing this kind of topo. I did two versions of the door (difference is just the size).
    Its in one geo though.


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  • rage288
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    rage288 polycounter lvl 6
    What's the problem?
    My thought exactly 
  • DeathstrokeFTW
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    DeathstrokeFTW polycounter lvl 4
    What's the problem?
    thats the problem xD I think im doing it wrong and in an inefficient way but both of them look ok. Its just that im doing star citizen-ish stuff and trying to do what they did without making mistakes. I just got to have a small environment done and well polished so I can get a job :/
    I'm a little over the edge today... Ill just go get some sleep
  • rage288
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    rage288 polycounter lvl 6
    They look fine for me, just add a lill bevel on the window so its not that hard. :)

  • DeathstrokeFTW
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    DeathstrokeFTW polycounter lvl 4
    rage288 said:
    They look fine for me, just add a lill bevel on the window so its not that hard. :)

    Alright thanks :)
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