The decline of civility?
polycounter lvl 18
I heard an interesting conversation on this subject on NPR this morning: http://www.kqed.org/epArchive/R707100900
I was looking for an excuse to post it, and this thread couldn't be a better one.
I'm not posting this at all from a holier than thou perspective. I know I have stuff to work on and I'm not exactly in the gauss league of zen calm in how I conduct myself with my fellow man. I'm particularly short tempered in the face of perceived arrogance, and I need to get to the bottom of that issue.
In general though, I think some folks around here could do no harm in listening. Polycount could be a slightly more pleasent place to hang around in If it looked a little less like a thread of replies to a youtube video.
*edit* corrected the link
I was looking for an excuse to post it, and this thread couldn't be a better one.
I'm not posting this at all from a holier than thou perspective. I know I have stuff to work on and I'm not exactly in the gauss league of zen calm in how I conduct myself with my fellow man. I'm particularly short tempered in the face of perceived arrogance, and I need to get to the bottom of that issue.
In general though, I think some folks around here could do no harm in listening. Polycount could be a slightly more pleasent place to hang around in If it looked a little less like a thread of replies to a youtube video.
*edit* corrected the link
Replies
I do try to work on it and have been a little bit more relaxed lately because of it.
Good post though thanks. Have you read The Art of Happiness by the Dhali Lhama? (SP) Good read...
I've had a whack load of problems with Real, don't trust it anymore. Mind giving a brief of what it's all about Daz? Or is it a bit long for that?
Yeck, Real Media is the only format.
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I'm an idiot Mitch, I actually posted the wrong link. That was from an '03 show. This is the link I meant to post, and there *is* an mp3 :-) It's about a perceived decline in the quality of how people conduct themselves, both online and in public. Try this: http://www.kqed.org/epArchive/R707100900
Funnily enough my fiancee gave me that book sometime ago Jesse, although I'll admit I haven't gotten around to reading it yet. This thread isn't so much about personal internal happiness, but I understand that these things are all inextricably intertwined.
:P
The point about re-iterating your opponents viewpoint (this does not mean quotes) to them to help form relationships seems very important online. Especially since as was said, we have no visual cues of how the person is responding. Emoticons cannot give the subtlety hand and facial gestures can.
I disagreed with the woman from that blog site about how your internet identity is now reflected as your real identity. Whether this is true or not, its a dangerous position to promote. As said above with the lack of a visual context, one should not hold judgment on series of sentences alone.
I guess its why I'm a big supporter of actual interaction and education versus online alone. There is a window of human interaction that is missing online. Its understandably hard to make people whose interaction in these matters though relies on internet forms. Quick personal example: I would rather have feedback and training in person versus just a online boards.
Finally, the comment one of the panelists mentioned about the market deciding whom does and does not speak was a very insiteful and true comment. Because sensationalism sells, the market promotes it, but the market cannot identify the human element.
Daz. We all have little things we need to work on. I myself can get very touchy on the military and those sorts of things because well it was a huge part of my life for a while and I still have friends overseas.
I do try to work on it and have been a little bit more relaxed lately because of it.
Good post though thanks. Have you read The Art of Happiness by the Dhali Lhama? (SP) Good read...
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It's Dalai Lama
Daz, the problem is just with people on the boards who are ignorant/egoenflated/lacking social skills who like to spread nonsense because they can hide behind their online anonymity. There arent THAT many of them anyway..
I think completely ignoring it is a much better solution. It avoids any kind of debate/arguement and the stupid comments just kind of dissolve. If everyone just completely ignored Odium/Profs comments as if they never existed, they would have felt silly waiting for some kind of response..
Water off a duck Daz, water off a duck...
I disagreed with the woman from that blog site about how your internet identity is now reflected as your real identity. Whether this is true or not, its a dangerous position to promote. As said above with the lack of a visual context, one should not hold judgment on series of sentences alone.
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It really depends who you are and what you are using this medium of communication for. Of course what you say online always conveys some reality about you and you cannot escape that. It's a matter of how much weight that reflection holds. If you are a one man show selling car spares using an enthusiasts forum, then most of the customers will get to know you by your online persona. Especially when posting items a lot. Therefore for the sake of your business you would want to behave in a way that attracts it, not repels it. Therefore in that particular example your online identity may as well be your real identity.
You can't say it's perfectly true for everyone and you can't say it's completely false for everyone. That is a far too simplistic analogy.
I also detest many of the comments seen on youtube videos. I think it reflects the weaknesses of the internet as a medium of communication quite well. However it's not worth getting upset over because it only accounts for a relatively small negative versus what is good about it as has been said.
(Someone cue me up some ominous music plzkthx)
I think most of the people on Polycount know where the line is, and crossing that line is really not good for the person. Recent threads have been good examples of both really outragous behavior but also they have been good examples of our code of conduct working since bad behavior has been confronted every time.
I think sometimes it is easy to cross the line when you don't respect the people you are talking to. Often it is a problem that compounds itself. Someone says something dumb and in response I'll also say something dumb, and so now other people have lost respect for the forum community in general and that just feeds the problem.
Overall I think we are doing okay here. Our code of conduct is a bit more laid back here and I think it is easy for newer members to think that there is no restraint at all.
I have certainly been guilty of really poor manners at times on these boards. Part of that is simply how I am in real life and I don't know if I could change even if I wanted to. I hope I haven't damaged my personal reputation or the community too much with my own behavior, and I will try harder to be nicer in the future.
Thanks for the link Daz, it just finished up now. Very interesting.
When the Roman Republic saw its first alarming decline of "civility" with the Grachii, it was the logical and obvious effect of a greater democratization of the political system. It has happened in every instance of democratization and popularization; oh well, should we instead restrict political discourse to just the very educated and politicians/pundits?
Where does this idea of "decline" come from? American history was certainly FAR from civil. Perhaps, the only time we see increased 'civility' was early 20th century around WWII, but ask your grandparents what topics were off-limits to most discussion: religion, and politics. People didn't discuss politics, they barely took a part; great for democracy, right? Is that what we should go back to, civil discourse but only NPR is having discourse?
Discourse right now is incredibly civil; we have TENS OF MILLIONS of Americans taking part in political discourse, every day; people are reasonably well educated and informed and this naturally leads to more civility, which counteracts the decline of civility due to the greater numbers of individuals taking part in discourse.
It would be great if everyone could discuss as monotonously and deliberately as NPR does. Except, most people don't fucking care. I'm not talking about people like Anne Coulter or Randi Rhodes, as their audience does care; it would be great if they were less like screaming harpies and more like NPR. But we're talking about money, entertainment.
If anything is 'cheapening' discourse it is the infusion of entertainment; but this also contributes to the education and information of individuals, so its a give and take. But overall, I think its incredibly rose-colored to say civil discourse has declined or is in decline amongst the masses.
On the other part of the dicussion- that is, the behaviour of officials- I don't condone it, I'd certainly like to see more 'civility,' but I certainly do not think its anything different than what's been going on for the history of political discourse.
I disagreed with the woman from that blog site about how your internet identity is now reflected as your real identity.
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I think what's more valid to say, is that your conduct online has the potential to affect you, so in a sense, its impossible to seperate your actual and your online personalities. Many employers have taken to googling anything they can find on potential employees, and there's a handful of people that I simply would never work with or recommend to anyone, based on their online personalities. That's reciprocated of course.
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint"
- Hesiod, 8th century BC
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I wonder if time effects our perception of civility? As time passes people tend to down play the bad and remember the good. Maybe everyone is doomed to think we are spiraling downward because we have managed to erase a large chunk of incivility thanks to gradual memory loss...
people are generally horrible these days, have met very few genuine decent people in my life.
During times of adversity such as the great wars people seem to have a greater sense of community. They are drawn together through shared circumstances and hardships. Maybe it is apathy that leads to a decline in civility.
I couldn't agree more with what you said.
which leads to a lack of motivation, and we all know where that goes. and all for the sake of what? taking 10 minutes to reply to something? less than that even (unless you're Gauss). i mean heck, i spent 10 minutes doing a paintover before work this morning, while i styled my teeth and brushed my hair (wait what?).
most people here don't realise just how much work people have to make before everyone goes "hey that's cool". so what if it isn't "your style", why can't you just give one line of advice? hell i've been spending more and more time helping my best friend be a better house DJ, and i'm an out and out metalhead... i just happen to know a lot about music.
share your knowledge, where's the harm? the sooner we help people become better, the sooner we won't have to look at lots of poop =]
/end rant.
did i keep that civilised enough?
Discuss that.
it's only recently that people have started posting in any threads that i've made, or even directly replying to me. and all because of what? my work doesn't scream "look how amazing i am!!!"? everyone has to start somewhere. and by completely ignoring the new guys, or the less skilled, you're giving people the exact same opinion that Odium has (who by the way, is no exception to his own description).
I think Polycount is full of some of the most big headed, egotastic, knob jockeys around. Some of you think you are God, and when people dont see you as such, you show a big "fuck you" one finger salute.
Discuss that.
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I strongly agree. I believe much would be improved as soon as you stop clicking the reply button. Please.
I work in customer service, and I can say without a doubt that civility is dead in the states. There are exceptions, but for the most part peope are assholes.
I once went way out of my way to help a customer...opened up my shop 15 early. Gave him a free upgrade (I rent cars..go figure). Did everything short of giving him a blowjob at the counter. And the guy treated me like a douchebag the whole time. The sad thing is that he is the norm
Guys here who attack odium, what are you looking to achieve, and how do you think you are behaving better than he is? At least he's honest about his aggression, not trying to hide behind feigned nobility
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I'm not looking to achieve anything specifically, other than add my voice to the others who are saying that his kind of behavior is not welcome here.
If his stance represented most of polycount, instead of being in the minority, you're right, I wouldn't attack him. I wouldn't visit polycount, because I wouldn't bother with a site full of people looking to tear into people to make themselves feel better.
Constructive Criticism is one thing, and is great when it is offered, but odium wasn't offering it in the thread, and thats why everyone is upset.
I will agree with him that there are plenty of big heads at polycount, but the difference between him and the rest of them is that the other big heads tend to offer a lot of helpful advice and criticism in addition to being full of themselves.
but yeah, to keep this on topic, i'll have to hear the clip first.... and for some reason, its not working on my computer. hmm.. .i'll figure things out though.
but yes, to re-iterate what per said, in the words of Gandhi: "an eye for an eye leaves the world blind." lets keep the flaming switches at 'off,' especially on serious discussion threads, and threads which an artist would be proud of, considering it announces his first released title [no im not hinting at any particular thread :innocent whistle:]. How about a new sub-forum titled "Flame each other". At least it'll keep the other threads clean of flames and cats.....no im not a cat person. dogs rule!
thanks again for the compliments... i'm beaming at the moment, and all the more energized to get back to work.
PS: is this an mp3 clip? how big is the file?
There are nice ways to let people know you are not going to take any of the crap they sling. Most of the time as soon as an asshole finds that boundary they shape up. Of course my favorite ways of reforming an asshole on the spot normally involved humiliation, the stripping away of rewards and the refusal of service. I like the rule 'the customer is always right', but I would add to it, 'IF they aren't being an ass'. If a company is in the wrong they should try and right it, but if a customer is just making noise so someone will toss free stuff at them then they need to be called on it and told to shuffle on.
The erosion of civility seems to happen in tiny steps. Rewarding peoples bad behavior is just one of those steps.
I can't speak for Odium but I explained my behaviour in that thread and it was exactly what Per said in one of his posts here. That's how I act. Its how I would want and expect people to act towards me. I wasn't aware polycount had such strong social conventions and rules, I made a faux-pas, and now I know what's expected and what's not. But, perhaps I got the idea it wasn't frowned upon because I do see so much flaming and trolling, I just didn't realize I had to be above a certain post count to partake in it.
I agree completely Vig. I would have loved to tell the prick to go fuck himself, to ask him if he was raised by a Detroit hooker with a learning disability,But the moment I show any balls to a customer, I'd get fired (especially to a person who has corporate account like this ass.). And I am in a position where I need this job, unfortunately- all 60 hours a week lol....its all good though...I am squeezing in a hour a day (2 hours on the weekend)towards my portfolio and by the end of the year I'll have something awesome to pimp out to employers....Polycount helps too- it shows there is life beyond customer service.
Whooooray Polycount
Booooooo jackholes
But, perhaps I got the idea it wasn't frowned upon because I do see so much flaming and trolling, I just didn't realize I had to be above a certain post count to partake in it.
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The flaming you see could be, and most often is, between two people who work together, know each other, or respect each other. Or it could be justified for putting out trolls like Odium who insists on throwing fuel on the fire. I've challenged someone's opinions many times, but without sinking to personal insults. Recently, I mentioned to someone that they were acting childish, and the response I received was "you ARE an asshole". Usually, any insults I throw are to someone I know personally who understands I'm joking. Otherwise, it's immature and this is not youtube. And it's assumed people are intelligent enough to know where critisism is allowed, since there is an entire forum for just that purpose. As mentioned, this is a tight community. The members of this forum, through networking, have landed jobs in the industry with the help of others. Myself included. I've met nearly a dozen polycounters in real life. For that, I try to portray myself in a respectable manner. It's a reflection of how I would act in a team environment, or social events.
Yes, being involved with something for a long time has it's priviledges. That's life, Mr. 420.
While you've shared your opinion, when not appropriate, and given your stance on hypocrisy, while childish, you have allowed a discussion. You're new, and skilled, and you've apologized.
On the other hand, Odium deserves a ban for his complete lack of social skills, and holier than thou attitude. He has no determination to remain a member of a community.
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Jesus, you seem a tad upset for a nobody.
either your a stupid dolt, or you cant read. I'm betting both.
It looks like complete and utter dog shit.
Christ people, get a clue.
Fine, you can think that. I wouldn't want to tell you what you can or cant think
I think Polycount is full of some of the most big headed, egotastic, knob jockeys around. Some of you think you are God, and when people dont see you as such, you show a big "fuck you" one finger salute.
Discuss that.
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I think the most efficient retard-filter on the boards would be to have people register their full name and birth date. That would work a treat.
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My personal favorite is Somethingawful's $10 registration. It pretty much ensures that the members are old enough to have a credit card, and once they've put $10 down and can be probated/banned for being a shitheel people tend to be a bit more civil.
But doing the same for here would probably keep a lot of people from ever joining since we don't have quite the draw that that site has.
I would indeed argue with that, Professor420. Trying to ruin a guy's day when he's so excited about his first released title (how cute!) is akin to killing Bambi in my book. There's a reason I've been using the term "out of line" here. Ebagg never positioned himself in such a way that crits of his work would be relevant at all.
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I didn't try to ruin his day, as I explained, had I known he would have taken such offense at the comment would have caused such hostility I never would have said it. Obviously I showed a high degree of social ineptitude and lack of tact.
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Professor dude, when you manage to show enough social ineptitude to diss the guy who tries to get people to give you some slack, I can understand why they're on your case in the first place.
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Then add 'fucking idiot' to my description, because I don't see where I dissed you. I didn't know I crossed a polycount line that the veterans feel is so obvious; I've seen you make some pretty mean comments, but I wasn't aware of such a line; the behaviour I see in other forums obviously doesn't carry over into GD, especially into threads where I commented in. I'm not sure but I think you misinterpreted what I said (or I conveyed it poorly; what else is new; gosh I swear I'm normally articulate): "I can't speak for Odium but I explained my behaviour in that thread and it was exactly what Per said in one of his posts here." I meant not Per would have said what I said and got a pass; I meant that you explained why I said what I said ("*I* am true to myself."). I certainly did not mean to insult you, in fact your frank style is alot easier to read, deal with, and learn from than more... flowery? language.
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The flaming you see could be, and most often is, between two people who work together, know each other, or respect each other.
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That may very well be true and that's what I'm talking about. I've only been at polycount for a few months, didn't spend much time lurking either. So I made a mistake in social interaction, obviously I was unawares of many of the dynamics going on here; I've apologized, said I'm now aware and will take the social lines and rules into account and not just blurt out what I think I should say. Polycount is a tight community, like you say, and there are many ways this is different (and better than) a larger or more structured/formal forum, but it also gives a unique appearance of nonchalance and casuality and rules that newcomers may not pick up on; I've explained this, and apologized for what I said and where I said it, how many times now, yet people don't stop attacking. There are no formal rules about what I said; common sense, perhaps, should have been enough, but it was not. And I realized I should not have said it, especially in that venue. What would satiate you?
I've explained this, and apologized for what I said and where I said it, how many times now, yet people don't stop attacking.
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a mod already posted for everyone to shut up so hopefully they'll stop ripping on you, but I've done the same thing you have in other forums and the best thing to do is edit out the original post and replace it with an apology because otherwise people just read the first one, respond, and derail the thread further instead of seeing your subsequent apology:(
As for why I was harsh to you back then, if you remember it was a miss understanding. I posted something you deamed to high res, and you took the piss out of it. I spoke back. And then we both fixed it.
Jesus people, calm the fuck down. I like how people are yanking on me like there is no tomorrow, yet I've already apologised for what was said. Meanwhile, most of you are still shouting off like crazy.
Chill.
And some people need to get out more honestly.
P.S - per
An interesting thing to note about the direction of the discussion, that the original poster hasn't replied in quite a while. Ha.
its a board, i would advise to be who you are , and express what you think,
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That's not the first time in this thread that that sentiment has been expressed, and I couldn't possibly agree more. However, just as an aside, a concerted effort to conduct oneself with respect for others doesn't *necessarily* have to mean 'suppressing' personality, honesty or integrity I don't think. They are separable up to a point imho. Although I will stress the 'up to a point' bit
"An interesting thing to note about the direction of the discussion, that the original poster hasn't replied in quite a while. Ha"
I was busy musing over the vicious irony of the thread turning to shit
How ironic. A thread about declining civility becomes the poster boy for it.
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Why do you say that?
Anyway, thanks for the link Daz. It was an enjoyable listen. Recently, browsing the internet has been depressing. Youtube comments are the best example. I agree anonymity and unrestricted access to sites is an influence. Also age and social wisdom. The current political climate is also a poor role model for how to conduct a debate/discussion. Name-calling, dehumanizing, and arrogance seems to have taken the place of logic, reasoning, understanding, and compromise.
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How ironic. A thread about declining civility becomes the poster boy for it.
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Why do you say that?
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I assume you are being sarcastic.
Are people less polite? In this case, I think so. But what are the causes; certainly, an issue one can write a book about, but when looked at briefly, perhaps a little impoliteness, just like a little uncivility, is really a great bargain. We live in the most economically and socially mobile civilization in history, where interaction cuts across all spectrum of class, income, upbringing, gender, race, etc. While there is certainly segregation of certain people in certain areas, as a whole, we (western civilization and in particular the US) are the most integrated, and diverse, culture EVER. What we deem as lack of politeness may actually be conflict of upbringing, customs, etc, that was never so apparent due to segregation and lack of contact with others. I served tables for 6 years at a very busy Italian restaurant; I dealt with more than my fair share of asshole customers; and hell yeah I thought they were annoying and would sometimes get angry. But sometimes people aren't aware of discourtesy (and making them aware is often hopeless as they get defensive instead of being able to have a... civil... argument). This is, certainly, impoliteness, but how often would this have occured in society past? We have such interaction with such diverse personalities and customs and views, of course there will be more conflicts and perceived impoliteness. Again, like the decline of civility, I think its a natural process of the popularization and technologicalization of our culture. Certainly impoliteness is a bad thing but the time we compare it to- and we most certainly are comparing by saying it is in decline- is a very poor alternative. Civility, politeness, could be better, it always could be and always can be, and will be, able to improve. And we should work to improve them. But I think its extremely narrow-minded to say either of them are in decline.
Theres nobody on this forum that isnt guilty of behaivor like this, because it all stems from the same issue, people's ego's get hurt, or someone thinks someone else is being an arrogant douche, so they lash back with their best weapon, their own wonderful arrogance.
The older I get the more I have come to realise that adults are simply big children. That is a scary thought.
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Why do you think we end up in diapers again?
The older I get the more I have come to realise that adults are simply big children. That is a scary thought.
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We can take this statement as a simple example, it is very easy to see this as an ignorant condescending remark, depending on the viewpoint of the reader. Very easy to read it as "you all are childish, except for me" One of the biggest problems with any sort of discusion on the internet is lack of knowing the proper tone. And when that fails, you think someone is taking a different tone then they really are and all hell breaks loose. I've litterally had to completely stop having any sort of serious conversation on the internet with my girlfriend due to this, its just sooooo easy for any little thing we say to turn into an arguement, but saying those same things in person, you actually get the tone of what they're saying and theres no arguement.
p.s. i agree. I've had some intense conversations with friends (former) because of that exact problem. i leave all serious conversations to phone calls or in person.