you'be amazed thought that sometimes if you have a bad art director, no one in the company will dare tell him that the art is bad.
People are just too timid.
I guess the thing that rubs me raw about the character assassination of the NWN2 AD is that hes more of a manager that has to work with the artists he is given or can hire. There is a reason you can't find a recent portfolio for this guy, he has moved into another arena, he manages artists. He could have very well screwed up and it could have been within his power to fix a lot of the things that are wrong with the game, but then maybe, he couldn't, maybe his hands were tied? We don't really know. Instead of ripping into the AD who will more than likely agree with you that the art doesn't hold up, especially since they are hiring heh. Instead rip into the artists who made the shitty assets. I know most AD's are faced with the choice to either scream you're fired, get better, or fuck I'll do it myself. Hopefully you can see on your own why all three choices still turn out shitty art.
You want to rip into an artist like a monkey on a cupcake to make yourself feel better, cool just make sure you get the right guy(s).
It's a good thing we aren't cops or all we would hear is "sorry chief we shot the wrong guy... again..." hehehe
See Vig that is were I disagree with you . The buck ends with the Art Director so if a game has shitty art it's because he let it through. You know now that Bobo is going to be an AD I can almost guerenfuckingtee that game will not have shitty art. Why ? because Bobo is a great artist who knows how to make great art and can either inspire others to do so or can teach people how to improve . Your telling me a games piss poor art has nothing to do with an AD because he's a manager and not an artist ? That's BS but they that's just my opinion . Don't hire an AD if he can't tell his head from his ass would be my message to a company who uses that " but he's a manager " excuse .
I think you are forgetting the constraints put on an AD.
As an AD you have to deal with:
- Time, its all great and dandy to say you should inspire your troops, teach and grow them to be better but when your budget is crap you're over deadline and in "oh shit they might can our game" mode. All of that sh!t goes on the bottom of the list.
- Budget, as pointed out before its hard to get talent when Burger King pays better.
- A fuck ton of micro management, it would be nice to say screw my team I'm doing this crap myself because you all suck but then who is going to handle all the bullshit?
Like I said he could have had screwed it hard, he very well could have. But the artists made shitty art, he just rubber stamped it. Why he rubber stamped it we don't know, but what we do know is that the artists f*cked up by making shitty art. Who can you rightfully and 100% correctly go after? The artist. Until you know the full story (and you may never know) stick with the sure win and tell the guy that made the crap he sucks.
Bottom line, you went after the wrong guy, sure he might have some responsibility in the creation of bad art. But really the bad UV layouts, the bad normal maps, the bad textures those where created by other people and had they done their job we wouldn't be talking about it right now.
Rebuttal to your idea that Bobo will rawk this guy based on talent alone.
Give Bobo low paid chimps who just graduated from an AI and have zero experience a budget you can't actually make a game on and even the great Bobo would not be able to fend off the tide of assets that need to be made.
Bobo has a few legs up on this guy and not just because his art rocks will he pull in talent. Bobo is working with some big names, and its a start up so they want quality and talent will be beating his door down to get in there. He has a little bit of time to assemble a crack team and more than likely the budget isn't as low as what Atari pays for games. Something tells me since Obsidian is still hiring they don't have the problem of talent kicking in their door. More than likely Bobo will be able to hand pick his team and pay a decent wage. Do we know if that is what this guy did or did he walk in the middle of the project? Was the budget so low talent took other offers? Was the pipeline screwed with? Did they have to redo a bunch of art at the last min? We don't know. I do agree that no sane AD would think that the art in NWN2 is quality, but putting the blame fully on the AD and not spreading most of it to the people who actually made the art is stupid.
Vig - all those assets have to be approved by someone higher up. Sure the artist might have fucked up on their UV layouts, normal maps, etc. but someone higher than them has to give the stamp of approval. If that higher-up (lead or AD, whatever) did THEIR job, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now either
There might be things that effect the rubber stamp, time budget, his higher ups constantly pestering like a toddler with a full bladder trapped in the back seat. There are more factors that can effect the AD's decision to let bad art slide.
If you're going to crit someones art do you crit their bosses art he made 6 years ago? In a thread about NWN2 art why bring up art that doesn't relate to the game being discussed? Why rip into the person who didn't create the art? If the reason we rip into art is to make the artists better or send them packing, why not rip into the artists?
We know the artists made bad art, they are fair game they should have known better, they should have done better.
We don't know how much the AD played a hand in making the bad art. I'm just suggesting that we don't know the full story and we should focus on who actually needs the help.
Vig I can agree with with you fully there ! The character artist on NWN 2 do need a LOT of help !! I mean don't get me wrong bro I know sometimes people are put under horrible constraints . You might be right that is why the art is crap but in the end who answers for that ?? Hell I do photo retouching for a wedding photographer im not even saying im better then them but I can logically understand that the AD is responsible for the art in a game bottom line .
I also agree with Vig to a large degree. If you're an AD and your minions bring you nothing but crap, you've got no choice but to pick the best bits of crap and send them on. What's the alternative? If you refuse to approve any of the assets given to you, the project is going to go off the rails and your bosses will replace you with someone who can at least get a product out the door.
In an ideal scenario, I'd like to think an AD could take steps to ensure his vision is what the final product looks like, but I expect that happens only in the rarest of development teams.
So you're saying the game is shit because the AD won't stand up to his/her beliefs of a higher quality standard in game art in fear of losing his/her job?
wtf? fuck that. To those ADs out there that think that way I say 'Grow a pair.'
If an art-director can't direct the artstyle or the artists, he can't do his job.
I have no idea what happened in this case so this is no personal attack:
But in the case of an art-director silently trembling in a corner in fear of losing his job, that shouldn't happen.
He should Push and Push and Push that you absolutely fucking have to paint speculars correctly, that elves shouldn't look like aliens, and that dwarves aren't transvestites.
Because even if the artists suck, they can still learn quite a bit from the guidence of a good art-director, which can eventually turn shit into atleast lesser good things.
What eld said. If the 'Game looks shit' buck doesn't stop with the AD, then who does it stop with? I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that If the game looks shite, that's the full responsibility of the AD. Otherwise, why the fuck hire him at all? His salary could be spent on another resource. I'm an AD for a MMORPG, so If it looks shit when it comes out, flame me. I consider it my responsibility, completely regardless of my disposable resources. That's what they pay me for; to dictate the look of the game. End of. I can't factor into my contract 'I'll only make the game look l33t If you hire bobo' for fucks sake. I have to deal with the cards Im dealt. That's how it always worked for me for 8 years at EA, and that's how it works for me at a small startup now.
The "official" buck does stop with the AD. When heads actually roll look for the AD's head to roll first. We know that never happens the first thing an AD does is pass the buck down hill like his boss just did, but his head should be the first to go. However the polycount buck "we rip your art a new hole to make you a better artist" stops with the artists.
I think the circumstances of development also play a big role, I reckon its possible under poor circumstances for good artists to produce crap end results- if the pipeline is a mess, and there is constant chopping and changing of decisions. eventually all the time you have to make good assets gets pissed away until suddelny the game needs to be released and you have to get something in there. In which case the AD probably has a big percentage of responsibility
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What eld said. If the 'Game looks shit' buck doesn't stop with the AD, then who does it stop with? I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that If the game looks shite, that's the full responsibility of the AD. Otherwise, why the fuck hire him at all? His salary could be spent on another resource. I'm an AD for a MMORPG, so If it looks shit when it comes out, flame me. I consider it my responsibility, completely regardless of my disposable resources. That's what they pay me for; to dictate the look of the game. End of. I can't factor into my contract 'I'll only make the game look l33t If you hire bobo' for fucks sake. I have to deal with the cards Im dealt. That's how it always worked for me for 8 years at EA, and that's how it works for me at a small startup now.
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I assume you have adequately talented people under you. If you were in a job situation that saw you staffed with unskilled kids right out of high school and a project oversight that refused to spend more budget on hiring experienced artists, would you still volunteer to take the blame? Yeah, I know you wouldn't abide in that environment for long and would probably quit rather than go down with that ship, but certainly there are AD jobs out there in which the director is sabotaged from the outset.
I have personally worked for game companies, where the AD had his power esurped by the head of the game company, hell when I was at Disney, Eisner would tell the artist what was art and make up his own. Sometimes your best intentions are not able to be shown as someone above you with more power can affect it. An AD is an essential part to making a game, I am not arguing that, but time/money/design/programming also plays into a succesfull game. On one game, our design document wasn't complete till 2 weeks before we went gold, so art was always changing and decreasing in level of quality from what it used to be the first, no second, no strike that the third time it was done. Not saying I know that this is how things were on NWN2, and I agree the art is horrible in alot of what I have seen, but just wanted to give another view in what I have personally experienced.
Replies
People are just too timid.
But with hindsight, it was probably insensitive...
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See what comes of living in northern California? Daz has turned hippie!
You want to rip into an artist like a monkey on a cupcake to make yourself feel better, cool just make sure you get the right guy(s).
It's a good thing we aren't cops or all we would hear is "sorry chief we shot the wrong guy... again..." hehehe
NWN2, Gothing 3, and Oblivion all suffer from in-game create-a-piece-of-shit shit-sliders.
Bullet on the back of the box:
Move the slider to add more or less shit! It's THAT easy!
As an AD you have to deal with:
- Time, its all great and dandy to say you should inspire your troops, teach and grow them to be better but when your budget is crap you're over deadline and in "oh shit they might can our game" mode. All of that sh!t goes on the bottom of the list.
- Budget, as pointed out before its hard to get talent when Burger King pays better.
- A fuck ton of micro management, it would be nice to say screw my team I'm doing this crap myself because you all suck but then who is going to handle all the bullshit?
Like I said he could have had screwed it hard, he very well could have. But the artists made shitty art, he just rubber stamped it. Why he rubber stamped it we don't know, but what we do know is that the artists f*cked up by making shitty art. Who can you rightfully and 100% correctly go after? The artist. Until you know the full story (and you may never know) stick with the sure win and tell the guy that made the crap he sucks.
Bottom line, you went after the wrong guy, sure he might have some responsibility in the creation of bad art. But really the bad UV layouts, the bad normal maps, the bad textures those where created by other people and had they done their job we wouldn't be talking about it right now.
Rebuttal to your idea that Bobo will rawk this guy based on talent alone.
Give Bobo low paid chimps who just graduated from an AI and have zero experience a budget you can't actually make a game on and even the great Bobo would not be able to fend off the tide of assets that need to be made.
Bobo has a few legs up on this guy and not just because his art rocks will he pull in talent. Bobo is working with some big names, and its a start up so they want quality and talent will be beating his door down to get in there. He has a little bit of time to assemble a crack team and more than likely the budget isn't as low as what Atari pays for games. Something tells me since Obsidian is still hiring they don't have the problem of talent kicking in their door. More than likely Bobo will be able to hand pick his team and pay a decent wage. Do we know if that is what this guy did or did he walk in the middle of the project? Was the budget so low talent took other offers? Was the pipeline screwed with? Did they have to redo a bunch of art at the last min? We don't know. I do agree that no sane AD would think that the art in NWN2 is quality, but putting the blame fully on the AD and not spreading most of it to the people who actually made the art is stupid.
If you're going to crit someones art do you crit their bosses art he made 6 years ago? In a thread about NWN2 art why bring up art that doesn't relate to the game being discussed? Why rip into the person who didn't create the art? If the reason we rip into art is to make the artists better or send them packing, why not rip into the artists?
We know the artists made bad art, they are fair game they should have known better, they should have done better.
We don't know how much the AD played a hand in making the bad art. I'm just suggesting that we don't know the full story and we should focus on who actually needs the help.
In an ideal scenario, I'd like to think an AD could take steps to ensure his vision is what the final product looks like, but I expect that happens only in the rarest of development teams.
wtf? fuck that. To those ADs out there that think that way I say 'Grow a pair.'
If an art-director can't direct the artstyle or the artists, he can't do his job.
I have no idea what happened in this case so this is no personal attack:
But in the case of an art-director silently trembling in a corner in fear of losing his job, that shouldn't happen.
He should Push and Push and Push that you absolutely fucking have to paint speculars correctly, that elves shouldn't look like aliens, and that dwarves aren't transvestites.
Because even if the artists suck, they can still learn quite a bit from the guidence of a good art-director, which can eventually turn shit into atleast lesser good things.
What eld said. If the 'Game looks shit' buck doesn't stop with the AD, then who does it stop with? I'm sorry, but I firmly believe that If the game looks shite, that's the full responsibility of the AD. Otherwise, why the fuck hire him at all? His salary could be spent on another resource. I'm an AD for a MMORPG, so If it looks shit when it comes out, flame me. I consider it my responsibility, completely regardless of my disposable resources. That's what they pay me for; to dictate the look of the game. End of. I can't factor into my contract 'I'll only make the game look l33t If you hire bobo' for fucks sake. I have to deal with the cards Im dealt. That's how it always worked for me for 8 years at EA, and that's how it works for me at a small startup now.
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I assume you have adequately talented people under you. If you were in a job situation that saw you staffed with unskilled kids right out of high school and a project oversight that refused to spend more budget on hiring experienced artists, would you still volunteer to take the blame? Yeah, I know you wouldn't abide in that environment for long and would probably quit rather than go down with that ship, but certainly there are AD jobs out there in which the director is sabotaged from the outset.
Spark