KP: Technically, the review was pulled because it was more of an anti-D&D rant loaded with grammar errors. Appearently, it never really got into reviewing the game because the reviewer hated D&D and couldn't get over that fact. Similar to hating football then railing Madden for it.
Got the game, played it a bit, entirely surprised by all the negativity in this thread. I have a GeForce 7800, which I heard there were problems with... it ran perfectly with everything set on high. Sorry guys, the VPU is not the problem.
Other than that, when I first walked outside the house into the fair grounds it was freaking gorgeous. Beautiful environmental art. What in the hell is wrong with all you? No art style? Fuck that bull shit. Open your eyes and look past the characters. The environments are beautiful.
It also plays very smoothly, moreso than the first. So far, I'm impressed.
Sure thing rooster, I will as soon as I get home. (Though that might not be for a little while yet, lots of work to do. If none are posted by the time I make it back I'll take a couple.)
so far by the images shown at gamespot, the environment art isnt that great ( just judging by the screenshots ) heck, even nwn1 environment is more appealing that this one imo...
1up review is awful,
Character art is worse,
Concept art is awesome,
Enviornment art is great?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds about right to me. Though some of the armour design is actually pretty cool. Me and my girlfriend had a good time looking through all the classes to see which one looked the coolest.
Also, the one up screens do not do what I saw justice.
Oblivion's environments needed improvement? The game was beautiful...
I'm sorry, but for both games I found the environments beautiful and the characters in need of improvements.
Characters are NOT the only (or even the major part) of the art direction. The only reason you guys bitch about em so much is that you mostly model them. Do not base an entire statement of art direction on characters. It is disrespectful to those environment artists who did wonderful jobs and made great looking games.
I completely agree with the first half of your post. Oblivion in particular, albeit certain technical issues aside (one of the most notable being the strange mipmapping terrain issue) was a beautiful game. I still insist however, that *some* of the character work was amongst the most heinous in recent years in a shipped game. This line however, I disagree with:
[ QUOTE ]
The only reason you guys bitch about em so much is that you mostly model them.
[/ QUOTE ]
I personally bitch about them because they look shit.
On the subject of NWN2, I personally have an issue with games that suffer from very poor optimization and performance. It just really irks me, so I'll probably give it a miss.
[ QUOTE ]
Oblivion's environments needed improvement? The game was beautiful...
I'm sorry, but for both games I found the environments beautiful and the characters in need of improvements.
Characters are NOT the only (or even the major part) of the art direction. The only reason you guys bitch about em so much is that you mostly model them. Do not base an entire statement of art direction on characters. It is disrespectful to those environment artists who did wonderful jobs and made great looking games.
[/ QUOTE ]
whoa whoa whoa buddy, if the game has good environmental art it doesnt suddenly render it from criticism regarding character art.
Yes most people here are characters artists, it doesnt make them any less sensitive to other aspects of game art.
I dont find the environmental art to be all that spectacular, but the characters are definitely on the weak side. My main criticism is the lack of the usual d&d style user interface and presentation ( not being a d&d fan myself though ), at least visually it feels like a lot of the soul of the game has been lost in the sequel.
Dont be an ignorant fool, I think most people made quite informed and solid arguements regarding the weakness of art direction and optimization. So for you to come out and say that we're all just bitching elitists is just plain silly.
Daz: What I meant by that is that because most people spend so much time working on character models they are more critical of them than the average person. WHich is true. It happens in any profession.
As for the optimization, can't comment on that because it's worked perfect for me thus far.
And right now the majority of this thread is made up by elitist bitching. It was almost all based around bashing the character art in NWN2. Gameplay, sound, etc... were pretty much completely ignored. Given that, I'd catagorize it as elitist bitching. (Except for the people with optimization issues. That is a different matter.)
As for these professional arguements, look at the page of reviews I posted. Those are far more professional assessments of the game (obviously) and they show an entirely different view point.
I'm sorry but NWN2 the environments look "good" because they are using reflective water and auto generated speed tree assets. There is no art direction needed there. The one place it was needed was for the characters and environment props. Thats where they failed.
The main thing we care about here is the art and how it effects performance. hmm wonder why. Looking at the screen shots i see that they are using very large diffuse textures even though they don't have any detail worth the resolution given to them. This is something that you will find in lots of company's that are learning how to use normal maps still.
Because of the lack of understanding of the tech the game looks shit and runs like shit.
If they would have made good looking diffuse had more detail then the normal map could get miped down and so could the diffuse allowing the game to run faster and look better. Maybe if they don't get shut down they will realize that for the next game.
[ QUOTE ]
Daz: What I meant by that is that because most people spend so much time working on character models they are more critical of them than the average person. WHich is true. It happens in any profession.
As for the optimization, can't comment on that because it's worked perfect for me thus far.
And right now the majority of this thread is made up by elitist bitching. It was almost all based around bashing the character art in NWN2. Gameplay, sound, etc... were pretty much completely ignored. Given that, I'd catagorize it as elitist bitching. (Except for the people with optimization issues. That is a different matter.)
As for these professional arguements, look at the page of reviews I posted. Those are far more professional assessments of the game (obviously) and they show an entirely different view point.
[/ QUOTE ]
So my previous 'they look shit' comment was somewhat facetious I guess. Im not disputing that as a group we are more critical of character Art. Fuck dude, that's what we do. Thats what this forum is founded on. Is it really so strange that we would critique harshly that aspect of it? Im really not liking your use of the phrase 'elitist bitching' here. Clearly youre a fan of the game and somewhat irked by the negativity, but jeez man , chill. The character models look crappy, that's all Im really sayin'. I'm sure it's a fun game.
Sorry Daz, I wasn't targeting you specifically (or at all) with that comment. More the general mood of the thread being "The character art sucks, therefor this game sucks." That does very much irk me. In large part because a lot of people who are saying things in that vein are also the people who say things like "The Wii isn't about graphics, it's about gameplay" or "A game doesn't need good graphics to be good."
I'd be fine if people gave a full look over of the game. "The character art sucks, the environments are alright though, and the gameplay is good." or whatever it is they think. Rather than that I just read a large puke of "LAWLZ! THOSE GUYZ SUX! THEY CANT EVEN MODEL CAHARACTERZ!!!1!" (Exageration obviously, but nonetheless.)
There is a large difference between critiquing a game and outright being an ass about it. There has been an awful lot of the latter in this thread.
Anyways, I can see that people aren't open to my line of thinking in this thread, so I'll stop posting and just enjoy the game on my own.
Having good looking human characters in a Rpg is hard.. I've learn that while working on Mass Effect. You need to have a very flexible system, that not only gives the player freedom but also allows the designers to create a myriad of npc's.
Essentially its like comparing facegen to lovingly crafted unique art - because there is a world of difference there.
BUT that isnt to say I would excuse the poorly executed character art in both Oblivion and NeverWinter Nights 2.. the art is definately uninspired - which suggests to me that they had lots of technical hurdles to overcome which distracted them from producing the best looking art that they could.
Tulkamir, this isn't about not being nextgen enough, it's about trying to be nextgen and failing horibly at it.
Thus what we get is a nextgen title too ugly for it's requirement.
And it's not exclusive to that, the camera is annoying, the new gui needs some overhaul, the inventory-art is so weird that you can't tell one thing from another.
And with the art again, even non-artist persons are complaining, finding the game to be way to ugly..
Oh, and you want to compare wii to nwn2?..
I'd definately pick wii-graphics, We're not complaning about lack of nextgen, we're complaining about lack of general goodness.
First half of the thread dealt with optimization problems people are having and the other half is commenting on the poor quality of art.
I really fail to see at which point did anyone was being an ass rather than adequately critiquing using screenshots as proof.
You are putting words into people's mouths. Everyone who commented on the artwork, made comprehensive and mature explanations. All you have done this thread is defend the game with a fury and huffed and puffed at anyone making any kind of criticisms ..
Your perception of people's opinion is entirely fictional.
Had to chime in on this, I think alot of people have shown that the character art in NWN2 seems to be on the weak side, and I didnt see you post anything to disprove that Tulkamir. Having done work for both NWN2 (concepts), and Oblivion (concepts and 3d work), I have to say that with these MMORPG type game, it rests alot on the artist (and art direction) on how well they use the next gen tech. The characters that Rockstar and I did for Oblivion were thankfully not the ones shown, or maybe mine was and I just didn't see it:) on how bad those characters were. But I personally know, that on Oblivion due to its size (characters) they used various people, along with a contract house (Liquid) with different levels of talent, and it seriously shows. I think that next gen tech will show more bad art than in any previous generation of art, as more people think they can throw a normal map on it and it will look good. And I think that after seeing some of the new games with this tech coming out (NWN2), this will be come all to apparent in future games:) Just my two cents, if you don't like them, please give them back cause I could use the money:P
The 'games are not about graphics' argument is totally different from this one. That people are saying about the Wii that it doesn't need super-gigamap nextgen art, doesn't mean it should use ugly stuff. That's all about polygons, and indeed, games don't need a gazillion polygons.
What the problem with NWN2 seems to be, at least on the character art department, is a lack of love. A good artist can make a lowpoly model look awesome, but a bad artist can make a highpoly model ugly. NWN2 was never constrained in terms of polygons, and it's the lack of artist quality that shows, not the specs.
All in all, graphics DO matter for games, polygon counts don't.
To be fair didn't Oblivion have a random face generator kind of like face-gen? I'm not sure a team of artist where behind each and every face, but general textures and meshes that where deformed by the engine? For the large ammount of rabble anyway. The best artist in the world can't fix something that is done to his/her model after it leaves their hands.
Also its a touch unfair to compair a FF game who's characters hardly change thier armor and have a set look for the majority of the game. To a game with modular armor that has to work on several different models of varrious heights and shapes. I'm not saying the art in NWN2 couldn't be better because it can. But lets not compair a character where the artist has an entire year to perfect one set of armor and a character that an artist has 3 months to pound out 200+ assets that roughly fit 5-10 body types and can be mixed and matched.
Serriously did they just model, unwrap and use the paint bucket to texture. Did they even attempt opacity maps anywhere?
I agree that its somewhat unfair to compare characters generated from customizable content than characters that are individually hand crafted. That said, I don't think as much slack can be cut as you might suggest. Customization systems are still largely developed by artists, as are all of the base assets.
Somehow I don't think that If the FF team had to create customizable content that it would look shit.
It happens to be the very thing I'm working on now, and whilst it of course creates many unique and interesting challenges, so far I haven't found any reason why it has to, by default, look shit.
True for oblivion, but with nwn2 the faces are artist-made, and you have a few premade faces and hairstyles for each race.
And even with that, people tend to modify these games to the better, like how morrowind got its faces upped with less of a polycount, and how oblivion had some custom race with a better looking base-mesh.
Very true, and I'm not letting them off the hook at all. Just pointing out a few things that help explain the challanges. Of course the FF teams could over come them much easier than the NWN2 team. But sadly you do get what you pay for most of the time and Atari doesn't like to pay even moderatly well unless you are somehow grandfathered in and shielded from their watchful eyes.
I haven't checked out NWN2 that much but is it top down 3rd person or first person? Are the screen grabs I am looking at ridcualsly up close or is that the average viewing distance and angle?
It has a few camera-angles to pick from, one of them is the standard nwn view, and another is an mmo-style camera, but fails at it, camera-rotation even at maximum is waay to slow, and the way of controlling is very very bad.
i actually feel sad...i loved NWN 1 , the art, the concepts, etc everything , the expansions, got me hooked for a while, the editor...this game makes me wanna turn off from it...
Well, I'm posting despite the fact that what I say in this thread has no relevance at all. Assuming anything I say is in any way correct, there won't be anyone budging for a second from their point of view.
Anyways, I said I'd post some screenshots which show a better view of the game, and I am. Not much, haven't got far into it yet, but I still think these look great. (And that there are hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of games which look worse).
Anyways, as to the rest, I give up. I agree with all of the reviews I've seen thus far. The game is great, plays great, etc...
Replies
crikey!
1up gave it a 5/10 before they pulled the review.
Here's a link to the original review:
http://www.evilavatar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=494506&postcount=18
Other than that, when I first walked outside the house into the fair grounds it was freaking gorgeous. Beautiful environmental art. What in the hell is wrong with all you? No art style? Fuck that bull shit. Open your eyes and look past the characters. The environments are beautiful.
It also plays very smoothly, moreso than the first. So far, I'm impressed.
like butt-seks dwarves or alien elves.
but no, seriously, the game isn't all that bad.
Sorry, but that just doesn't happen to games that are as bad as everyone here is trying to make NWN2 out to be.
1up review is awful,
Character art is worse,
Concept art is awesome,
Enviornment art is great?
So, to sum up:
1up review is awful,
Character art is worse,
Concept art is awesome,
Enviornment art is great?
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds about right to me. Though some of the armour design is actually pretty cool. Me and my girlfriend had a good time looking through all the classes to see which one looked the coolest.
Also, the one up screens do not do what I saw justice.
Oh, and you missed an important one SupRore -
Gameplay is brilliant.
man , i believe you , still this wouldnt make me buy it
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you kidding?
You don't want to buy a game with Huge Enraged Bears?
emm it looks pretty old-gen, but the bear has me sold. plus, is that badger a part member?
[/ QUOTE ]
Probably a familiar or an animal companion.
Or a really awful druid (not that, really, there's any other kind.)
And if it isn't next gen enough for you to want to play it my suggestion is to stay away from the Wii.
The game looks like the first version of Dark Age of Camelot + meshsmooth.
I'm with noritsune, oblivions faces looked a bit off, but not like that..
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, a 'bit off' ? Here's a quick reminder:
I think I'm with EQ on this one.
I'm sorry, but for both games I found the environments beautiful and the characters in need of improvements.
Characters are NOT the only (or even the major part) of the art direction. The only reason you guys bitch about em so much is that you mostly model them. Do not base an entire statement of art direction on characters. It is disrespectful to those environment artists who did wonderful jobs and made great looking games.
[ QUOTE ]
The only reason you guys bitch about em so much is that you mostly model them.
[/ QUOTE ]
I personally bitch about them because they look shit.
On the subject of NWN2, I personally have an issue with games that suffer from very poor optimization and performance. It just really irks me, so I'll probably give it a miss.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm with noritsune, oblivions faces looked a bit off, but not like that..
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, a 'bit off' ? Here's a quick reminder:
I think I'm with EQ on this one.
[/ QUOTE ]
LOLLERCOPTER
W T F IS THAT?!?!?!
Oblivion's environments needed improvement? The game was beautiful...
I'm sorry, but for both games I found the environments beautiful and the characters in need of improvements.
Characters are NOT the only (or even the major part) of the art direction. The only reason you guys bitch about em so much is that you mostly model them. Do not base an entire statement of art direction on characters. It is disrespectful to those environment artists who did wonderful jobs and made great looking games.
[/ QUOTE ]
whoa whoa whoa buddy, if the game has good environmental art it doesnt suddenly render it from criticism regarding character art.
Yes most people here are characters artists, it doesnt make them any less sensitive to other aspects of game art.
I dont find the environmental art to be all that spectacular, but the characters are definitely on the weak side. My main criticism is the lack of the usual d&d style user interface and presentation ( not being a d&d fan myself though ), at least visually it feels like a lot of the soul of the game has been lost in the sequel.
Dont be an ignorant fool, I think most people made quite informed and solid arguements regarding the weakness of art direction and optimization. So for you to come out and say that we're all just bitching elitists is just plain silly.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm with noritsune, oblivions faces looked a bit off, but not like that..
[/ QUOTE ]
Um, a 'bit off' ? Here's a quick reminder:
OH DEAR GOD, MY EYES ARE BLEEDING
I think I'm with EQ on this one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Man, that was just cruel.
As for the optimization, can't comment on that because it's worked perfect for me thus far.
And right now the majority of this thread is made up by elitist bitching. It was almost all based around bashing the character art in NWN2. Gameplay, sound, etc... were pretty much completely ignored. Given that, I'd catagorize it as elitist bitching. (Except for the people with optimization issues. That is a different matter.)
As for these professional arguements, look at the page of reviews I posted. Those are far more professional assessments of the game (obviously) and they show an entirely different view point.
The main thing we care about here is the art and how it effects performance. hmm wonder why. Looking at the screen shots i see that they are using very large diffuse textures even though they don't have any detail worth the resolution given to them. This is something that you will find in lots of company's that are learning how to use normal maps still.
Because of the lack of understanding of the tech the game looks shit and runs like shit.
If they would have made good looking diffuse had more detail then the normal map could get miped down and so could the diffuse allowing the game to run faster and look better. Maybe if they don't get shut down they will realize that for the next game.
Daz: What I meant by that is that because most people spend so much time working on character models they are more critical of them than the average person. WHich is true. It happens in any profession.
As for the optimization, can't comment on that because it's worked perfect for me thus far.
And right now the majority of this thread is made up by elitist bitching. It was almost all based around bashing the character art in NWN2. Gameplay, sound, etc... were pretty much completely ignored. Given that, I'd catagorize it as elitist bitching. (Except for the people with optimization issues. That is a different matter.)
As for these professional arguements, look at the page of reviews I posted. Those are far more professional assessments of the game (obviously) and they show an entirely different view point.
[/ QUOTE ]
So my previous 'they look shit' comment was somewhat facetious I guess. Im not disputing that as a group we are more critical of character Art. Fuck dude, that's what we do. Thats what this forum is founded on. Is it really so strange that we would critique harshly that aspect of it? Im really not liking your use of the phrase 'elitist bitching' here. Clearly youre a fan of the game and somewhat irked by the negativity, but jeez man , chill. The character models look crappy, that's all Im really sayin'. I'm sure it's a fun game.
I'd be fine if people gave a full look over of the game. "The character art sucks, the environments are alright though, and the gameplay is good." or whatever it is they think. Rather than that I just read a large puke of "LAWLZ! THOSE GUYZ SUX! THEY CANT EVEN MODEL CAHARACTERZ!!!1!" (Exageration obviously, but nonetheless.)
There is a large difference between critiquing a game and outright being an ass about it. There has been an awful lot of the latter in this thread.
Anyways, I can see that people aren't open to my line of thinking in this thread, so I'll stop posting and just enjoy the game on my own.
Essentially its like comparing facegen to lovingly crafted unique art - because there is a world of difference there.
BUT that isnt to say I would excuse the poorly executed character art in both Oblivion and NeverWinter Nights 2.. the art is definately uninspired - which suggests to me that they had lots of technical hurdles to overcome which distracted them from producing the best looking art that they could.
Thus what we get is a nextgen title too ugly for it's requirement.
And it's not exclusive to that, the camera is annoying, the new gui needs some overhaul, the inventory-art is so weird that you can't tell one thing from another.
And with the art again, even non-artist persons are complaining, finding the game to be way to ugly..
Oh, and you want to compare wii to nwn2?..
I'd definately pick wii-graphics, We're not complaning about lack of nextgen, we're complaining about lack of general goodness.
NWN2 has poor design and even worse execution. A perfect combination for ass looking art, if you ask me.
First half of the thread dealt with optimization problems people are having and the other half is commenting on the poor quality of art.
I really fail to see at which point did anyone was being an ass rather than adequately critiquing using screenshots as proof.
You are putting words into people's mouths. Everyone who commented on the artwork, made comprehensive and mature explanations. All you have done this thread is defend the game with a fury and huffed and puffed at anyone making any kind of criticisms ..
Your perception of people's opinion is entirely fictional.
Spark
What the problem with NWN2 seems to be, at least on the character art department, is a lack of love. A good artist can make a lowpoly model look awesome, but a bad artist can make a highpoly model ugly. NWN2 was never constrained in terms of polygons, and it's the lack of artist quality that shows, not the specs.
All in all, graphics DO matter for games, polygon counts don't.
Also its a touch unfair to compair a FF game who's characters hardly change thier armor and have a set look for the majority of the game. To a game with modular armor that has to work on several different models of varrious heights and shapes. I'm not saying the art in NWN2 couldn't be better because it can. But lets not compair a character where the artist has an entire year to perfect one set of armor and a character that an artist has 3 months to pound out 200+ assets that roughly fit 5-10 body types and can be mixed and matched.
Serriously did they just model, unwrap and use the paint bucket to texture. Did they even attempt opacity maps anywhere?
Somehow I don't think that If the FF team had to create customizable content that it would look shit.
It happens to be the very thing I'm working on now, and whilst it of course creates many unique and interesting challenges, so far I haven't found any reason why it has to, by default, look shit.
And even with that, people tend to modify these games to the better, like how morrowind got its faces upped with less of a polycount, and how oblivion had some custom race with a better looking base-mesh.
I haven't checked out NWN2 that much but is it top down 3rd person or first person? Are the screen grabs I am looking at ridcualsly up close or is that the average viewing distance and angle?
It has a few camera-angles to pick from, one of them is the standard nwn view, and another is an mmo-style camera, but fails at it, camera-rotation even at maximum is waay to slow, and the way of controlling is very very bad.
pick nwn-camera. always.
Anyways, I said I'd post some screenshots which show a better view of the game, and I am. Not much, haven't got far into it yet, but I still think these look great. (And that there are hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of games which look worse).
Anyways, as to the rest, I give up. I agree with all of the reviews I've seen thus far. The game is great, plays great, etc...
Your losses for not giving it a chance I suppose.