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I assume that all of you who are upset about this either don't believe what DICE said in the quote above or haven't read it. If you do believe DICE, I have no clue what it is you are upset about.
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This kind of ingame advertising is rather new to games. If a game logs my IP to determine where I am from to show me ads ingame and tries to figure out how long I am looking at these - then that is something that has to be stated on the darn box! As long as it doesn't it is just spyware with pretty visuals. I brought back my copy to my retailer just because of that. I do not want to pay 50 and find out about stuff like this after opening the box.
BTW, having to uninstall MS security patches to make the game run does not put DICE's statement in a rather good light...
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What they are collecting just like a TV rating system.
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I think they are going to collect a lot more data than that. It's more like if the TV ratings made you strap a laser to your head to measure exactly how and where you looked at the TV.
Granted I think this latest installment of BF is less than exciting but boycotting it because of ads is futile. All the major publishers are looking at this seriously.
I think the main problem here is that the consumer doesn't get any advantage out of this. Releasing a free client of your game with ads in makes sense to me. Releasing a game at full price, only to tell the consumer they've been fucked after they open the box makes err... less sense to me.
If by "positive impact" you mean another fleet of exotic cars sold to the top brass at EA then yes it will have a positive effect on the industry. heh.
i think that the major issue is not the fack theres the spyware, its the fact they FORCE FEED us it. we could disable it or have a copy without it more expensive or a copy with it not so expensive..that would be something someone honest would do.
i dont really enjoy the fact that there are advertisements in it either, but i havent played the game yet to see how it is implemented. The only thing that bugs me is that it is a 'future' game with advertisements of the current time.
then again if the price of the game isnt affected by the advertisements in it, and i can still run around and shoot things, i can be sure to phase out the advertising and things that arent the game. Gran Turrismo has also 'force fed' us advertising to a lesser degree, likewise with sports games, SSX (on tour was pretty bad for it), etc. Was inevitable i guess for some games to finally pick up endorsements and dynamic ads.
I think the whole dynamic ad thing is a pretty ingenius idea... it may suck, but if you dont like it, dont buy or play it as the warning says
have there been a lot of people playing the game? it had looked like it was pretty fun.
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notman, that's the dumbest analogy I've ever heard. How exactly is an ass-fucking magic gnome like a billboard? Isn't a billboard in a game more like, say, a billboard in real life? As opposed to, hmm, ass-rape?
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The ass-rape analogy wasn't refering to ads. It was refering to my privacy and computer getting raped with spyware. But hey, the game is fun and still $50, so go buy it... I'll pass
what bugs me about the issue is the reason why... Not why do they need the informaiton, but why do they need to advertise? Its not as if they spent so much making the game (since it looks just like a mod of BF2, no real graphical enchancements at all either) that they need to make the money up by advertising. It's a very immoral thing to do, to trap the people into letting you gather the information, then getting more money from advertisement companies. Unless they plan on actually using the money to create awesome content, then its not correct in my book.
*Whine whine* "Oh game development cost more.. This is the logical solution. But then we will outsource as well for the cheapest development also. Nevermind questioning the need to do both."
Two sides my ass, its about making bigger stock worth. Period.
Boycotting does work as history has shown. If I didn't know better, saying its useless is trying to keep people from organizing as you know the results. And its not like people here are saying NO, they are saying. "Why the hell am I paying fullprice for a triple A game with ads in it"? Even with premium cable channels like showtime, you get no ads (other than their own self promotion crap).
(To some people here)
Cmon, at least be honest enough to state your own inherent bias versus being "supposedly" apolitical. We all know its because there is a benefit to attracting developers or publishers if you don't take a stand.
It's easy enough to bash EA and their execs of course but this is not something they dreamed up alone. Anyone involved and interested in the industry should have seen this one coming.
I think it's brilliant but evil scheme, I'm sure it will work. If I was worried about what people thought I wouldn't have posted here.
I wonder just how robust the advertising tracking software is, can it track porn too? If so i want a screenshot of one of the billboards with some porn on it. That would make it worth while. Or better yet i want some mom or dad to come in while their kid is playing the game and they walk past the porn billboard.
I can hear the lawsuits comming from miles away...
Its neither brilliant nor evil. Its ignorance in management at its worst. Its simply the easy way out. God forbid making the pipeline more efficient, and having managers not give unrealistic deadlines to "compete".
Its going to make the industry more static if some don't purposely seek alternatives. Already, with this game its pretty stupid to have ads for modern consumerist goods in a futuristic battlefield? Did anyone really stop to think about that when the green lit? Or was the green dollar signs to blinding to the unimaginative suckers?
Anyhow, to counterpoint what you said earlier okkun about a positive effect with increased money, we will see less variety under this and more static. You cant easily place ads in a non modern based game without looking out of place, or breaking the immersion for "commercials". I have yet to see any arguement that can account for this, yet claim benefit for the industry.
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Its neither brilliant nor evil. Its ignorance in management at its worst. Its simply the easy way out. God forbid making the pipeline more efficient, and having managers not give unrealistic deadlines to "compete".
Its going to make the industry more static if some don't purposely seek alternatives. Already, with this game its pretty stupid to have ads for modern consumerist goods in a futuristic battlefield? Did anyone really stop to think about that when the green lit? Or was the green dollar signs to blinding to the unimaginative suckers?
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I don't see it that way at all. Streamling the development process might save money, but what EA is doing potentially opens up an entirely new revenue stream. That's not ignorance; if it works, it's ingenious. I'll agree that trying to sell 2007 model year vehicles in a game set more than 100 years later is ridiculous, but that's an issue with execution than with concept.
This is going to be an unpopular position, but I'm all for dynamic advertising. In certain games, I think it would actually add to imnemrsion and could be an interesting environmental component. No, I don't want to pay $50 for a glorified commercial, but I can imagine a GTA-style game with real world movie posters, billboards, burger franchises... I mean, that's what the world looks like every time I set foot outside of my house; excluding that sort of advertising from a video game doesn't somehow mke the game better or more fun to play.
This doesn't mean I want a McDonalds franchise setting up in the middle of my Warcraft game, but in cases where it makes sense, I think it's a concept with interesting potential. If it ever comes to pass that software itself is cheaper because it's partly subsidized by in-game advertising, I'm doubly sold. I don't care what the fuck they put on the BF2142 billboards if it'll put $10 back in my wallet.
This doesn't mean I want a McDonalds franchise setting up in the middle of my Warcraft game, but in cases where it makes sense, I think it's a concept with interesting potential. If it ever comes to pass that software itself is cheaper because it's partly subsidized by in-game advertising, I'm doubly sold. I don't care what the fuck they put on the BF2142 billboards if it'll put $10 back in my wallet.
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That would be great if they had implemented a cheaper cost initially. But they havent. In fact, arent they retroactively doing this to bf2 also?
Why can't I pay them a small extra per month or when I buy the game to have ad free version? Why isnt the consumer being given a choice other than simply not buying it? It wouldnt be difficult to implement if you consider how it would less ostracize some of the audience. Funny thing is I thought it was to gain the greatest audience.
Verm, what about the position about the lack then of Warcraft type games (in example) then because this revenue stream isnt available? I cant see how its not going to constrain game design.
Do I have the ability to have my avatar protest in front of these commercial locations? I mean afterall, you do want to add to the immersion level. (This happened in Sims Online). The answer. No, its going to purposely constrain the freedoms of the player.
I can see in game advertising having nothing but a negative impact on the overall quality of games in the future.
But wether you support in game advertising or not, in this case I think we should all be pissed off. A publisher is trying to sell us an old engine, with mandatory advertising and spyware at an inflated price. And come on, EA of all publishers, they're hardly a struggling little studio starving for revenue. In this case the end user accepts the full burden of this new deal and gets none of the benefits.
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excluding that sort of advertising from a video game doesn't somehow mke the game better or more fun to play.
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this doesnt apply in all cases.. think of all the games with comedy ads and parodies of companies like GTA and sin episodes. I like those, I would hate to see them turn into real ads
I think the worst part is that the MSRP is 5 Euro higher than normal. Of course most stores I've seen don't respect that, selling it for 50 or 45 Euros instead of the 55 EA recommends. But we're talking about a game that probably had lower than normal dev costs (because the engine got reused) while introducing ads to further reduce the money it needs to earn to be profitable, yet the game is more expensive than normal?
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Why can't I pay them a small extra per month or when I buy the game to have ad free version?
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More than likely they have to place ads in high traffic areas of the game which means something the same shape and size needs to be there so your "ad free" version doesn't have a different tatical advantage/disadvantage. So more than likely they would just change the textures to be YEPSI instead of PEPSI so you're still being annoyed with big ads but they wouldn't be name brand.
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excluding that sort of advertising from a video game doesn't somehow mke the game better or more fun to play.
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this doesnt apply in all cases.. think of all the games with comedy ads and parodies of companies like GTA and sin episodes. I like those, I would hate to see them turn into real ads
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I agree, I have always liked parody ads. In fact when people use real world logos in portfolio work I always tell them to replace them with parody work, it shows imagination and if you can make someone laugh while they look at your stuff they might remember your work.
i played the full version last nite for 2 maps.,, and i don't recall seing a single ad, i'll be glad when every game is using this ad software so maybe all you retards will no longer be clouding up my internet with your conspiracy theorys, and unfounded allegations.
i've noticed a good deal of you guys acting that this is the most terrible thing ever, are also the same ones posting in all the sept 11th cover ups.. have to have something mysterious about everything... its simple stuff.. and in a few years most all online games will be using it.
i doubt that this is real , but if it is : shit ! i grabbed this from cgtalk thou...its from the EULA when installing...
" Information collected will vary depending on the activity and may include your name, e-mail address, phone number, mobile number, home address, birth date, and credit card information. In addition, we may collect demographic information such as gender, zip code, information about your computer, hardware, software, platform, media, Internet IP address and connection, information about online activity such as feature usage, game play statistics, and scores, user rankings and click paths and other data that you may provide in suryeys or online profiles. for instance. We may combine demographic information with personal information. Prize winners may also be required to provide Social Security or Social Identification Number for tax purposes. "
I hope you aren't reffering to me, because that must mean you think the official statments from EA are conspiracy theories too, and that would be pretty damned stupid.
"The in-game advertisement gathers what we call “impression data”, such as location of the billboard in the game or duration of advertisement impression. It helps see how many people have seen an ad"
"The time that each ad impression takes place is also recorded by IGA, alongside what type of ad content it was (billboard, megaboard, or video stream), the duration (how long was the ad seen for), the size of the ad relative to the player, and the angle of deflection (what angle the ad is viewed at)."
As a consumer I have to say I feel the advertising is a bad idea from the way they marketed and sold the game. They should have been forward with all consumers by informing you in commercials and on the box. As some one said earlier, in certain countries the slip of paper is not present.
Also the fact that if you have the latest Microsoft security updates on your computer the BF2142 installation will prompt you to uninstall a security update to play is bogus. The security update is in place to protect your computer. Any program requiring you to uninstall such software so they will have ads supported is putting you at greater risk.
As a person interested in the business side you have to admit that it is a extremely good idea. While this game may not show a jump in graphics as it is really just a mod of the BF2 game this will become increasingly more prominent. The cost to produce a game these days far exceeds what it did to create a PS1 title. These games are also being sold at a loss to the consumer. We are paying under what we should. In order for a company to make a profit which is the ultimate goal a step in this direction is required. EA could have handled this in many ways. Instead of having the ads in game play on billboards or posters on buildings they could have been running during the load screen. Which as we all know from our BF2 experience some times can take quite a bit of time. The new Need for Speed Carbon game has the same thing suposedly.
The fact still remains that EA has gone about this in entirely the wrong way. If they felt they were right in the matter they would not have released a statement later trying to justify their side. The only reasons to release such a statement is either leverage from the government or your lawyer advising you to.
They could have been up front, placed the ads at the load screen, come up with a better system and etc. The fact is that this will most likely continue to occur but I am sure the process of sending ads to the consumer through games will change in a way not effecting your computer.
What should have occurred is a simple process. Produce tons of ads, each one bundled with the game and put out in new patches of the game. The only software dictating what ads you view being your ip address which shows where you live. No other info is required. If an ad is set to run more in your region then your ip address while running the game produces certain ads while someone in Africa or Germany gets completely seperate ads.
As your ip address is generally an easy thing to find based upon online play the only thing being done is an in game code is telling your comp what series of ads to show, nothing more. This would have probably been the best way to go about it but then again as this is the first time this has really been done so we will see how it changes.
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excluding that sort of advertising from a video game doesn't somehow mke the game better or more fun to play.
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this doesnt apply in all cases.. think of all the games with comedy ads and parodies of companies like GTA and sin episodes. I like those, I would hate to see them turn into real ads
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No doubt, but nothing applies in all cases. I wouldn't want to see the GTA parodies repalced either, I was just using that series as a real-world immersion example. But if it was a game literally set in a modern American city, I'd be all for real ads. I think oXY's objections are primarily philosophical, but that doesn't work for me. I just don't get upset about this sort of thing until it literally affects my ability to play the game.
Beyond that, I really do think ad placement has a lot of honestly creative potential. Look at the movie Blade Runner, nearly everyone here has seen that film. Its Los Angeles of 2019 is famously plastered with ads - the omni-present Coke videos, the hilariously out-of-date Atari ads, things like that. Real world touchstones in an imaginary setting. You replace those ads with some generic product and it doesn't make the movie worse or anything, but a neat bit of flavor is missing. I don't care what an ad for the imaginary Uber Cola might look like, but how Coca-Cola be perceived in ten or fifty years? I think that's neat, and it connects my own experiences and real-world relationships with what's going on inside a game.
I'm not expecting that anything truly great will come of this ad system, but I'm recognizing potential. If anything, I only object to EA's likely not passing the profit/savings on to the customer and not making the data harvest process more transparent. The product placement itself... hell, I work in an ad agency, I'm totally immune to that. In addition to the bottle of Pepsi here on my own desk, I can see demo units of Chef Boyardee ravioli, Pringles chips and Cheer detergent without even having to swivel in my chair. Product placement IS the real world; I don't see a reason to object to it in entertainment unless it's gratuitously coming at the expense of that entertainment.
Wow Rhino. Instead of reading objections, you just group everyone together then throw something unrelated as a "comparison" so that you can go suck your thumb in a corner safe in the knowledge you are right, and we are wrong.
Such a enlightened intelligent view!
:P
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Verm I would argue its more forecasting based on simple deduction than just a "philosophy" alone. It will happen this way things are going unless you can find a flaw. As I said, we already saw protests in Sims Online, just because it didn't effect you personally doesnt mean it didnt happen. If also the ads are coming from a master company as is the case now, the likely hood of ads tailored to individual games is lowered. No matter how you splice it, trying to sell consumer products like modern vehicles in a future setting isn't going to work well.
To offset your example, look at the folly of Irobot. That entire movie was ruined for many because of that stupid "retro" shoe subplot. Im sometimes tempted cutting out those scenes and releasing it over torrent (somewhat like that batman & robin redux a few years back) .
Vig, of course that space would still exist. But it could be used to do what is done now.. Funny fake ads. Seriously, there isn't a reason NOT to give the consumer a choice if they are willing to pay the difference fucking godamnit! At least it would keep people from getting upset as much as the choice existed.
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i doubt that this is real , but if it is : shit ! i grabbed this from cgtalk thou...its from the EULA when installing...
" Information collected will vary depending on the activity and may include your name, e-mail address, phone number, mobile number, home address, birth date, and credit card information. In addition, we may collect demographic information such as gender, zip code, information about your computer, hardware, software, platform, media, Internet IP address and connection, information about online activity such as feature usage, game play statistics, and scores, user rankings and click paths and other data that you may provide in suryeys or online profiles. for instance. We may combine demographic information with personal information. Prize winners may also be required to provide Social Security or Social Identification Number for tax purposes. "
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You do know that is worded to include thier online delivery system that works like steam. Anytime you buy something online most places want a credit card number, your address and an email addy along with some other personal info. It doesn't mean the ad tracking software will steal that info without you knowing about it. When they say they will collect that info they mean you will provide it willingly when asked.
It is possible to buy the game and never have to worry about that info going to EA unless you want it to.
One thing that I think people are missing here is that getting permission to include a brand name in a game or movie is not the same thing as product placement.
Product placement is when the creators are getting a payoff to include something they weren't planning on. Gran Tourismo and Ace Combat (probably) do not have product placement in them. Pepsiman does.
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Verm I would argue its more forecasting based on simple deduction than just a "philosophy" alone. It will happen this way things are going unless you can find a flaw. As I said, we already saw protests in Sims Online, just because it didn't effect you personally doesnt mean it didnt happen. If also the ads are coming from a master company as is the case now, the likely hood of ads tailored to individual games is lowered. No matter how you splice it, trying to sell consumer products like modern vehicles in a future setting isn't going to work well.
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I agree that inappropriate ads aren't going to work, and there's essentially no way to do something like this in a medieval fantasy game, etc. But things like the Sims Online issue... I just don't care. If people are fool enough to pay for a game, log in and deliberately not play it in protest, I say let the inmates run the asylum. I don't play those kinds of games. If someone wants to log into BF2142 and sit down under a billboard in proteset, that's fine - I'll frag him and be glad I didn't have to use a lot of ammo to do it.
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To offset your example, look at the folly of Irobot. That entire movie was ruined for many because of that stupid "retro" shoe subplot.
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You can't hand my own points back to me, oXY Like I said, "I don't see a reason to object to it in entertainment unless it's gratuitously coming at the expense of that entertainment." I-Robot was pathetic, because the ads became the foreground. Blade Runner rocks, as the ads stay in the background. I've never heard anyone say that BR's ad integration lessens that movie's appeal. Overt tongu-in-cheek works as well (Wayne's World, for instance), because entertainment remaisn the priority.
The problem is that balance though Verm. Todays ad/media to out of balance in power. There is soo many forms of competition for an advertisers dollars, the advertiser can get away with asking more specific requests. Can you name a big budget modern sci-fi film that was able to >match< Bladerunners subtle use? (No, Minority Report was blatantly obvious, and Episodes 1-3 were a giant form of an Ad for SW ).
Your also missing my point with the protest. The idea is that play and immersion will be limited to not allow things like this to happen. Now, last I heard you could not markup these billboards with bullet holes or damage (someone confirm/deny). If most of the rest of the environment has parrallax maps or at least alphas, how does this not detract from immersion and make these stick out more? Its can lead to even more blatant forms of control as advertisers want more control per the competition. As a good designer will tell you, you dont want to punish players, which is what are you doing if you do have to bar certain actions otherwise possible simply for the benefit of the advertiser.
Its good we are having this discussion since Im flatly on the other side of the fence than you Verm (Media Jammer).
In what regard? Its already been stated elsewhere there are modern ads in it. What else would you need motive? It wouldbe nice if someone as pointed out earlier would take a screen shot.
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i played the full version last nite for 2 maps.,, and i don't recall seing a single ad, i'll be glad when every game is using this ad software so maybe all you retards will no longer be clouding up my internet with your conspiracy theorys, and unfounded allegations.
i've noticed a good deal of you guys acting that this is the most terrible thing ever, are also the same ones posting in all the sept 11th cover ups.. have to have something mysterious about everything... its simple stuff.. and in a few years most all online games will be using it.
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What conspiracy theories and unfounded allegations? EA put adware in a game that is barely more than an expansion pack (for which they are charging full price), and people are pissed. What the fuck does that have to do with 9/11? Have you gone completely batshit insane? Why don't you go install Bonzi Buddy, or something.
hmm played for about 4 hours after work today.. still havent seen a single ad in game.
fun game,, and having actualy played it i would say its more than an expansion. the game play mechanics have changed a lot. core systems are difrent. so say what you want
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The problem is that balance though Verm. Todays ad/media to out of balance in power. There is soo many forms of competition for an advertisers dollars, the advertiser can get away with asking more specific requests. Can you name a big budget modern sci-fi film that was able to >match< Bladerunners subtle use? (No, Minority Report was blatantly obvious, and Episodes 1-3 were a giant form of an Ad for SW ).
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Matching Blde Runner is a tall order in any measure, but I'll go with The Matrix and Morpheus's Duracell reference (Switch even calls Neo 'coppertop' at one point, very clever bit). Worked well, IMO, along with the fake Nokia phones everyone used. But I don't want to quibble over the execution; my point is that the concept is worthy.
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Your also missing my point with the protest. The idea is that play and immersion will be limited to not allow things like this to happen. Now, last I heard you could not markup these billboards with bullet holes or damage (someone confirm/deny). If most of the rest of the environment has parrallax maps or at least alphas, how does this not detract from immersion and make these stick out more? Its can lead to even more blatant forms of control as advertisers want more control per the competition. As a good designer will tell you, you dont want to punish players, which is what are you doing if you do have to bar certain actions otherwise possible simply for the benefit of the advertiser.
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That's entirely relative, IMO. In some instances, I suppose that's an issue, but video games are already an abstraction of reality that inherently limit freedom. I've played dozens of games that arm me with a rocket launcher, and I don't think any of those games have let me blast a whole through every chunk of drywall I choose. If we get to the point of having 100% deformable environments except invulnerable billboarsd, I might feel different.
I think one good example from my perspective are games in the Gran Turismo series. As I understand it, you can't completely wreck and mangle your car because some of the manufacturers insisted that their products not be totally thrased, a stipulation of licensing the vehicle. True or not, I do know that I want to race in Corvettes and Porsches and Ferraris - using 'fake' cars, like in the Burnout series, just isn't as cool.
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Its good we are having this discussion since Im flatly on the other side of the fence than you Verm (Media Jammer).
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Haha - yeah, I think I'll need a stick of dynamite to get you over on my side, but a good discussion all the same
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i played the full version last nite for 2 maps.,, and i don't recall seing a single ad, i'll be glad when every game is using this ad software so maybe all you retards will no longer be clouding up my internet with your conspiracy theorys, and unfounded allegations.
i've noticed a good deal of you guys acting that this is the most terrible thing ever, are also the same ones posting in all the sept 11th cover ups.. have to have something mysterious about everything... its simple stuff.. and in a few years most all online games will be using it.
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What conspiracy theories and unfounded allegations? EA put adware in a game that is barely more than an expansion pack (for which they are charging full price), and people are pissed. What the fuck does that have to do with 9/11? Have you gone completely batshit insane? Why don't you go install Bonzi Buddy, or something.
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Can i see a raise of hands here of how many have actually played the game and knows what the f*** they are talking about?
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Why do you have to 'play the game' to know that it comes with spyware/adware? It's clearly admitted by the company. Why would I install that crap just so I can talk about it? If you're just talking about the ads, then ignore my statement since I wasn't complaining about the actual ads (though I'm not a fan of ads in FPS games).
OK here is the paper that is released with game.. as previously posted by rv-el
now READ this don't just glance thru it and asume it says what you already know..
The "SOFTWARE" which is the game bf2142 includes ad tracking software that is active whne you use the software (again 2142) when attached to the net... it in no way give a hint that it is constantly running.. it says NOTHING about logging your visited websites
says nothing about personal information..
says NOTHIGN about collecting information about your computing habits..
"The slip of paper says, essentially, that 2142 includes monitoring software which runs while your computer is online, and records "anonymous" information like your IP address, surfing habits (probably via cookie scans), and other "computing habits" in order to report this information back to ad companies and ad servers, which generates in-game ads. "
its like they skimmed over the paper then made up what would get the most pitchforks gathered and torches lit.
its what most everyone seems to be doing just taking what they want to hear to allow them to preach the most.
Rhino. Have you already forgotten the part where you have to deinstall a windows security patch for the ad portion of the game to work? Now barring arguments its stealing your IP and such (which if you did read some of ours, you would realize that wasn't what we were all talking about). You have to have a less secure system simply to play this game?
How is that logical? Not only this, but why the hell did they have to program it so lazily that it has to do this?
You're splitting hairs here; these two things are pretty close to being the same damn thing. And I would argue that my surfing habits and other "computing habits" ARE personal information. On top of that, they're still charging full price for the game. That's like paying for HBO and then getting commercials on the channel. It's bullshit. People have a legitimate reason to boycott this game; they're not conspiracy theorists, they're not saying EA blew up the WTC buildings, and I think you should get off their collective back about it. EAs adware doesn't bother you? Great, go play some BF2142 and let these people air their grievances.
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I assume that all of you who are upset about this either don't believe what DICE said in the quote above or haven't read it. If you do believe DICE, I have no clue what it is you are upset about.
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This kind of ingame advertising is rather new to games. If a game logs my IP to determine where I am from to show me ads ingame and tries to figure out how long I am looking at these - then that is something that has to be stated on the darn box! As long as it doesn't it is just spyware with pretty visuals. I brought back my copy to my retailer just because of that. I do not want to pay 50 and find out about stuff like this after opening the box.
BTW, having to uninstall MS security patches to make the game run does not put DICE's statement in a rather good light...
What they are collecting just like a TV rating system.
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I think they are going to collect a lot more data than that. It's more like if the TV ratings made you strap a laser to your head to measure exactly how and where you looked at the TV.
Granted I think this latest installment of BF is less than exciting but boycotting it because of ads is futile. All the major publishers are looking at this seriously.
If by "positive impact" you mean another fleet of exotic cars sold to the top brass at EA then yes it will have a positive effect on the industry. heh.
then again if the price of the game isnt affected by the advertisements in it, and i can still run around and shoot things, i can be sure to phase out the advertising and things that arent the game. Gran Turrismo has also 'force fed' us advertising to a lesser degree, likewise with sports games, SSX (on tour was pretty bad for it), etc. Was inevitable i guess for some games to finally pick up endorsements and dynamic ads.
I think the whole dynamic ad thing is a pretty ingenius idea... it may suck, but if you dont like it, dont buy or play it as the warning says
have there been a lot of people playing the game? it had looked like it was pretty fun.
notman, that's the dumbest analogy I've ever heard. How exactly is an ass-fucking magic gnome like a billboard? Isn't a billboard in a game more like, say, a billboard in real life? As opposed to, hmm, ass-rape?
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The ass-rape analogy wasn't refering to ads. It was refering to my privacy and computer getting raped with spyware. But hey, the game is fun and still $50, so go buy it... I'll pass
...it may suck, but if you dont like it, dont buy or play it as the warning says...
[/ QUOTE ]That's part of what people are grumbling about.. you don't find any of this out until *after* you buy a game and crack open the packaging.
Two sides my ass, its about making bigger stock worth. Period.
Boycotting does work as history has shown. If I didn't know better, saying its useless is trying to keep people from organizing as you know the results. And its not like people here are saying NO, they are saying. "Why the hell am I paying fullprice for a triple A game with ads in it"? Even with premium cable channels like showtime, you get no ads (other than their own self promotion crap).
(To some people here)
Cmon, at least be honest enough to state your own inherent bias versus being "supposedly" apolitical. We all know its because there is a benefit to attracting developers or publishers if you don't take a stand.
I think it's brilliant but evil scheme, I'm sure it will work. If I was worried about what people thought I wouldn't have posted here.
I can hear the lawsuits comming from miles away...
Its going to make the industry more static if some don't purposely seek alternatives. Already, with this game its pretty stupid to have ads for modern consumerist goods in a futuristic battlefield? Did anyone really stop to think about that when the green lit? Or was the green dollar signs to blinding to the unimaginative suckers?
Anyhow, to counterpoint what you said earlier okkun about a positive effect with increased money, we will see less variety under this and more static. You cant easily place ads in a non modern based game without looking out of place, or breaking the immersion for "commercials". I have yet to see any arguement that can account for this, yet claim benefit for the industry.
However, if it's done correctly in way that meshes with the ambience of the game it wouldn't be a big deal
As for this instance, I can't say if it looks out of place since I haven't seen the ads or the environments.
Its neither brilliant nor evil. Its ignorance in management at its worst. Its simply the easy way out. God forbid making the pipeline more efficient, and having managers not give unrealistic deadlines to "compete".
Its going to make the industry more static if some don't purposely seek alternatives. Already, with this game its pretty stupid to have ads for modern consumerist goods in a futuristic battlefield? Did anyone really stop to think about that when the green lit? Or was the green dollar signs to blinding to the unimaginative suckers?
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I don't see it that way at all. Streamling the development process might save money, but what EA is doing potentially opens up an entirely new revenue stream. That's not ignorance; if it works, it's ingenious. I'll agree that trying to sell 2007 model year vehicles in a game set more than 100 years later is ridiculous, but that's an issue with execution than with concept.
This is going to be an unpopular position, but I'm all for dynamic advertising. In certain games, I think it would actually add to imnemrsion and could be an interesting environmental component. No, I don't want to pay $50 for a glorified commercial, but I can imagine a GTA-style game with real world movie posters, billboards, burger franchises... I mean, that's what the world looks like every time I set foot outside of my house; excluding that sort of advertising from a video game doesn't somehow mke the game better or more fun to play.
This doesn't mean I want a McDonalds franchise setting up in the middle of my Warcraft game, but in cases where it makes sense, I think it's a concept with interesting potential. If it ever comes to pass that software itself is cheaper because it's partly subsidized by in-game advertising, I'm doubly sold. I don't care what the fuck they put on the BF2142 billboards if it'll put $10 back in my wallet.
This doesn't mean I want a McDonalds franchise setting up in the middle of my Warcraft game, but in cases where it makes sense, I think it's a concept with interesting potential. If it ever comes to pass that software itself is cheaper because it's partly subsidized by in-game advertising, I'm doubly sold. I don't care what the fuck they put on the BF2142 billboards if it'll put $10 back in my wallet.
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That would be great if they had implemented a cheaper cost initially. But they havent. In fact, arent they retroactively doing this to bf2 also?
Why can't I pay them a small extra per month or when I buy the game to have ad free version? Why isnt the consumer being given a choice other than simply not buying it? It wouldnt be difficult to implement if you consider how it would less ostracize some of the audience. Funny thing is I thought it was to gain the greatest audience.
Verm, what about the position about the lack then of Warcraft type games (in example) then because this revenue stream isnt available? I cant see how its not going to constrain game design.
Do I have the ability to have my avatar protest in front of these commercial locations? I mean afterall, you do want to add to the immersion level. (This happened in Sims Online). The answer. No, its going to purposely constrain the freedoms of the player.
But wether you support in game advertising or not, in this case I think we should all be pissed off. A publisher is trying to sell us an old engine, with mandatory advertising and spyware at an inflated price. And come on, EA of all publishers, they're hardly a struggling little studio starving for revenue. In this case the end user accepts the full burden of this new deal and gets none of the benefits.
excluding that sort of advertising from a video game doesn't somehow mke the game better or more fun to play.
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this doesnt apply in all cases.. think of all the games with comedy ads and parodies of companies like GTA and sin episodes. I like those, I would hate to see them turn into real ads
Why can't I pay them a small extra per month or when I buy the game to have ad free version?
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More than likely they have to place ads in high traffic areas of the game which means something the same shape and size needs to be there so your "ad free" version doesn't have a different tatical advantage/disadvantage. So more than likely they would just change the textures to be YEPSI instead of PEPSI so you're still being annoyed with big ads but they wouldn't be name brand.
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excluding that sort of advertising from a video game doesn't somehow mke the game better or more fun to play.
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this doesnt apply in all cases.. think of all the games with comedy ads and parodies of companies like GTA and sin episodes. I like those, I would hate to see them turn into real ads
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I agree, I have always liked parody ads. In fact when people use real world logos in portfolio work I always tell them to replace them with parody work, it shows imagination and if you can make someone laugh while they look at your stuff they might remember your work.
nuff said...
i've noticed a good deal of you guys acting that this is the most terrible thing ever, are also the same ones posting in all the sept 11th cover ups.. have to have something mysterious about everything... its simple stuff.. and in a few years most all online games will be using it.
" Information collected will vary depending on the activity and may include your name, e-mail address, phone number, mobile number, home address, birth date, and credit card information. In addition, we may collect demographic information such as gender, zip code, information about your computer, hardware, software, platform, media, Internet IP address and connection, information about online activity such as feature usage, game play statistics, and scores, user rankings and click paths and other data that you may provide in suryeys or online profiles. for instance. We may combine demographic information with personal information. Prize winners may also be required to provide Social Security or Social Identification Number for tax purposes. "
"The in-game advertisement gathers what we call “impression data”, such as location of the billboard in the game or duration of advertisement impression. It helps see how many people have seen an ad"
"The time that each ad impression takes place is also recorded by IGA, alongside what type of ad content it was (billboard, megaboard, or video stream), the duration (how long was the ad seen for), the size of the ad relative to the player, and the angle of deflection (what angle the ad is viewed at)."
Also the fact that if you have the latest Microsoft security updates on your computer the BF2142 installation will prompt you to uninstall a security update to play is bogus. The security update is in place to protect your computer. Any program requiring you to uninstall such software so they will have ads supported is putting you at greater risk.
As a person interested in the business side you have to admit that it is a extremely good idea. While this game may not show a jump in graphics as it is really just a mod of the BF2 game this will become increasingly more prominent. The cost to produce a game these days far exceeds what it did to create a PS1 title. These games are also being sold at a loss to the consumer. We are paying under what we should. In order for a company to make a profit which is the ultimate goal a step in this direction is required. EA could have handled this in many ways. Instead of having the ads in game play on billboards or posters on buildings they could have been running during the load screen. Which as we all know from our BF2 experience some times can take quite a bit of time. The new Need for Speed Carbon game has the same thing suposedly.
The fact still remains that EA has gone about this in entirely the wrong way. If they felt they were right in the matter they would not have released a statement later trying to justify their side. The only reasons to release such a statement is either leverage from the government or your lawyer advising you to.
They could have been up front, placed the ads at the load screen, come up with a better system and etc. The fact is that this will most likely continue to occur but I am sure the process of sending ads to the consumer through games will change in a way not effecting your computer.
What should have occurred is a simple process. Produce tons of ads, each one bundled with the game and put out in new patches of the game. The only software dictating what ads you view being your ip address which shows where you live. No other info is required. If an ad is set to run more in your region then your ip address while running the game produces certain ads while someone in Africa or Germany gets completely seperate ads.
As your ip address is generally an easy thing to find based upon online play the only thing being done is an in game code is telling your comp what series of ads to show, nothing more. This would have probably been the best way to go about it but then again as this is the first time this has really been done so we will see how it changes.
Just a thought and a few opinions.
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excluding that sort of advertising from a video game doesn't somehow mke the game better or more fun to play.
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this doesnt apply in all cases.. think of all the games with comedy ads and parodies of companies like GTA and sin episodes. I like those, I would hate to see them turn into real ads
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No doubt, but nothing applies in all cases. I wouldn't want to see the GTA parodies repalced either, I was just using that series as a real-world immersion example. But if it was a game literally set in a modern American city, I'd be all for real ads. I think oXY's objections are primarily philosophical, but that doesn't work for me. I just don't get upset about this sort of thing until it literally affects my ability to play the game.
Beyond that, I really do think ad placement has a lot of honestly creative potential. Look at the movie Blade Runner, nearly everyone here has seen that film. Its Los Angeles of 2019 is famously plastered with ads - the omni-present Coke videos, the hilariously out-of-date Atari ads, things like that. Real world touchstones in an imaginary setting. You replace those ads with some generic product and it doesn't make the movie worse or anything, but a neat bit of flavor is missing. I don't care what an ad for the imaginary Uber Cola might look like, but how Coca-Cola be perceived in ten or fifty years? I think that's neat, and it connects my own experiences and real-world relationships with what's going on inside a game.
I'm not expecting that anything truly great will come of this ad system, but I'm recognizing potential. If anything, I only object to EA's likely not passing the profit/savings on to the customer and not making the data harvest process more transparent. The product placement itself... hell, I work in an ad agency, I'm totally immune to that. In addition to the bottle of Pepsi here on my own desk, I can see demo units of Chef Boyardee ravioli, Pringles chips and Cheer detergent without even having to swivel in my chair. Product placement IS the real world; I don't see a reason to object to it in entertainment unless it's gratuitously coming at the expense of that entertainment.
Such a enlightened intelligent view!
:P
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Verm I would argue its more forecasting based on simple deduction than just a "philosophy" alone. It will happen this way things are going unless you can find a flaw. As I said, we already saw protests in Sims Online, just because it didn't effect you personally doesnt mean it didnt happen. If also the ads are coming from a master company as is the case now, the likely hood of ads tailored to individual games is lowered. No matter how you splice it, trying to sell consumer products like modern vehicles in a future setting isn't going to work well.
To offset your example, look at the folly of Irobot. That entire movie was ruined for many because of that stupid "retro" shoe subplot. Im sometimes tempted cutting out those scenes and releasing it over torrent (somewhat like that batman & robin redux a few years back) .
Vig, of course that space would still exist. But it could be used to do what is done now.. Funny fake ads.
i doubt that this is real , but if it is : shit ! i grabbed this from cgtalk thou...its from the EULA when installing...
" Information collected will vary depending on the activity and may include your name, e-mail address, phone number, mobile number, home address, birth date, and credit card information. In addition, we may collect demographic information such as gender, zip code, information about your computer, hardware, software, platform, media, Internet IP address and connection, information about online activity such as feature usage, game play statistics, and scores, user rankings and click paths and other data that you may provide in suryeys or online profiles. for instance. We may combine demographic information with personal information. Prize winners may also be required to provide Social Security or Social Identification Number for tax purposes. "
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You do know that is worded to include thier online delivery system that works like steam. Anytime you buy something online most places want a credit card number, your address and an email addy along with some other personal info. It doesn't mean the ad tracking software will steal that info without you knowing about it. When they say they will collect that info they mean you will provide it willingly when asked.
It is possible to buy the game and never have to worry about that info going to EA unless you want it to.
Product placement is when the creators are getting a payoff to include something they weren't planning on. Gran Tourismo and Ace Combat (probably) do not have product placement in them. Pepsiman does.
Verm I would argue its more forecasting based on simple deduction than just a "philosophy" alone. It will happen this way things are going unless you can find a flaw. As I said, we already saw protests in Sims Online, just because it didn't effect you personally doesnt mean it didnt happen. If also the ads are coming from a master company as is the case now, the likely hood of ads tailored to individual games is lowered. No matter how you splice it, trying to sell consumer products like modern vehicles in a future setting isn't going to work well.
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I agree that inappropriate ads aren't going to work, and there's essentially no way to do something like this in a medieval fantasy game, etc. But things like the Sims Online issue... I just don't care. If people are fool enough to pay for a game, log in and deliberately not play it in protest, I say let the inmates run the asylum. I don't play those kinds of games. If someone wants to log into BF2142 and sit down under a billboard in proteset, that's fine - I'll frag him and be glad I didn't have to use a lot of ammo to do it.
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To offset your example, look at the folly of Irobot. That entire movie was ruined for many because of that stupid "retro" shoe subplot.
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You can't hand my own points back to me, oXY
Your also missing my point with the protest. The idea is that play and immersion will be limited to not allow things like this to happen. Now, last I heard you could not markup these billboards with bullet holes or damage (someone confirm/deny). If most of the rest of the environment has parrallax maps or at least alphas, how does this not detract from immersion and make these stick out more? Its can lead to even more blatant forms of control as advertisers want more control per the competition. As a good designer will tell you, you dont want to punish players, which is what are you doing if you do have to bar certain actions otherwise possible simply for the benefit of the advertiser.
Its good we are having this discussion since Im flatly on the other side of the fence than you Verm (Media Jammer).
i played the full version last nite for 2 maps.,, and i don't recall seing a single ad, i'll be glad when every game is using this ad software so maybe all you retards will no longer be clouding up my internet with your conspiracy theorys, and unfounded allegations.
i've noticed a good deal of you guys acting that this is the most terrible thing ever, are also the same ones posting in all the sept 11th cover ups.. have to have something mysterious about everything... its simple stuff.. and in a few years most all online games will be using it.
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What conspiracy theories and unfounded allegations? EA put adware in a game that is barely more than an expansion pack (for which they are charging full price), and people are pissed. What the fuck does that have to do with 9/11? Have you gone completely batshit insane? Why don't you go install Bonzi Buddy, or something.
fun game,, and having actualy played it i would say its more than an expansion. the game play mechanics have changed a lot. core systems are difrent. so say what you want
The problem is that balance though Verm. Todays ad/media to out of balance in power. There is soo many forms of competition for an advertisers dollars, the advertiser can get away with asking more specific requests. Can you name a big budget modern sci-fi film that was able to >match< Bladerunners subtle use? (No, Minority Report was blatantly obvious, and Episodes 1-3 were a giant form of an Ad for SW
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Matching Blde Runner is a tall order in any measure, but I'll go with The Matrix and Morpheus's Duracell reference (Switch even calls Neo 'coppertop' at one point, very clever bit). Worked well, IMO, along with the fake Nokia phones everyone used. But I don't want to quibble over the execution; my point is that the concept is worthy.
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Your also missing my point with the protest. The idea is that play and immersion will be limited to not allow things like this to happen. Now, last I heard you could not markup these billboards with bullet holes or damage (someone confirm/deny). If most of the rest of the environment has parrallax maps or at least alphas, how does this not detract from immersion and make these stick out more? Its can lead to even more blatant forms of control as advertisers want more control per the competition. As a good designer will tell you, you dont want to punish players, which is what are you doing if you do have to bar certain actions otherwise possible simply for the benefit of the advertiser.
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That's entirely relative, IMO. In some instances, I suppose that's an issue, but video games are already an abstraction of reality that inherently limit freedom. I've played dozens of games that arm me with a rocket launcher, and I don't think any of those games have let me blast a whole through every chunk of drywall I choose. If we get to the point of having 100% deformable environments except invulnerable billboarsd, I might feel different.
I think one good example from my perspective are games in the Gran Turismo series. As I understand it, you can't completely wreck and mangle your car because some of the manufacturers insisted that their products not be totally thrased, a stipulation of licensing the vehicle. True or not, I do know that I want to race in Corvettes and Porsches and Ferraris - using 'fake' cars, like in the Burnout series, just isn't as cool.
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Its good we are having this discussion since Im flatly on the other side of the fence than you Verm (Media Jammer).
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Haha - yeah, I think I'll need a stick of dynamite to get you over on my side, but a good discussion all the same
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i played the full version last nite for 2 maps.,, and i don't recall seing a single ad, i'll be glad when every game is using this ad software so maybe all you retards will no longer be clouding up my internet with your conspiracy theorys, and unfounded allegations.
i've noticed a good deal of you guys acting that this is the most terrible thing ever, are also the same ones posting in all the sept 11th cover ups.. have to have something mysterious about everything... its simple stuff.. and in a few years most all online games will be using it.
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What conspiracy theories and unfounded allegations? EA put adware in a game that is barely more than an expansion pack (for which they are charging full price), and people are pissed. What the fuck does that have to do with 9/11? Have you gone completely batshit insane? Why don't you go install Bonzi Buddy, or something.
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EXPANSIONS! FIGHT THE POWER!
Can i see a raise of hands here of how many have actually played the game and knows what the f*** they are talking about?
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Why do you have to 'play the game' to know that it comes with spyware/adware? It's clearly admitted by the company. Why would I install that crap just so I can talk about it? If you're just talking about the ads, then ignore my statement since I wasn't complaining about the actual ads (though I'm not a fan of ads in FPS games).
now READ this don't just glance thru it and asume it says what you already know..
The "SOFTWARE" which is the game bf2142 includes ad tracking software that is active whne you use the software (again 2142) when attached to the net... it in no way give a hint that it is constantly running.. it says NOTHING about logging your visited websites
says nothing about personal information..
says NOTHIGN about collecting information about your computing habits..
now here is an article from Kotaku http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/centipedes/battlefield-2142-with-a-dash-of-spyware-207955.php
"The slip of paper says, essentially, that 2142 includes monitoring software which runs while your computer is online, and records "anonymous" information like your IP address, surfing habits (probably via cookie scans), and other "computing habits" in order to report this information back to ad companies and ad servers, which generates in-game ads. "
its like they skimmed over the paper then made up what would get the most pitchforks gathered and torches lit.
its what most everyone seems to be doing just taking what they want to hear to allow them to preach the most.
How is that logical? Not only this, but why the hell did they have to program it so lazily that it has to do this?
it says NOTHING about logging your visited websites
says nothing about personal information..
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surfing habits (probably via cookie scans)
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You're splitting hairs here; these two things are pretty close to being the same damn thing. And I would argue that my surfing habits and other "computing habits" ARE personal information. On top of that, they're still charging full price for the game. That's like paying for HBO and then getting commercials on the channel. It's bullshit. People have a legitimate reason to boycott this game; they're not conspiracy theorists, they're not saying EA blew up the WTC buildings, and I think you should get off their collective back about it. EAs adware doesn't bother you? Great, go play some BF2142 and let these people air their grievances.