Daz, have you tried using other cg shaders that can just give you a viewport render? it basically comes down to if the person who made the shader gave it the ability to handle mirrored UVs
Daz.. just a thought, which may not work, but it looks to me as if the parts which are having normal problems would look correct from their backface. Have you tried inverting the normals for the polygons experiencing the errors, and making sure the material renders double sided?
It's really not the viewport stuff that's the big stumbling block though. *rendering* normal maps in maya requires a PHD in nuclear physics or something, and I've just spent waaay too much time trying to figure it out. I can't believe it's this hard. RE3456: thanks for the link to those shaders, but I still found it an absolute nightmare. I must be stupid .
Anyway, I ploughed ahead anyway knowing I couldn't possibly finish and this is as far as I got with colour and spec. Way too much work to do to get it done in time but oh well, I tried. If Alias actually recognised that people use their software for making videogames I might have gotten closer.
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If Alias actually recognised that people use their software for making videogames
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tell me about it I end up just doing hardware render for my character and it really sucked. I think I'm gonna start learning 3dsmax. I should have done what you did on the character and just make another NM for the mirrored part but I thought that would break the rule for having 2 NM 1024 maps
As far as the shader goes, now I feel a lot better before I thought it was just me being stupid of not knowing how to use the shaders, now I know we are both stupid J/K Anyway it's really a shame that you won't be able to finish this character for the contest but I'm still looking forward to see the final product, the texture looks awesome, keep up the good work.
Honestly I find it absolutely staggering that maya 7.0 cant render normal maps properly out of the box. Im not even asking for mental ray. The software renderer would be fine.
Both those shader 'solutions' started to make my head bleed. I just dont have time to mess about making extremely complex shader networks. Crazy. I guess this is something I need to sit down and properly figure out when I have time later.
LOL, lots to fix but I am still hanging in there by a thin thread!!
the thing is that right now it looks a bit too "plastic", and I know you can do way better than this, I saw your highpoly texturing, you can really do exactly the same (even faking SSS) with normal maps nowadays, i'd be very happy to see it rendered like that german soldier.
I really love the style of this entry, very clean, good job, especially for a second normalmapped model ( though I wasn't expecting less from you ^^
would be a shame if you're not gonna make it in time indeed, but if that happens, still finish it, you're so close, and it's such a cool character KEEP IT UP MAN, lots can be done in 8 hours !!!
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the thing is that right now it looks a bit too "plastic", and I know you can do way better than this, I saw your highpoly texturing, you can really do exactly the same (even faking SSS) with normal maps nowadays,
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Hah easy for you to say sat there in front of Max Thanks for the words of encouragement, but I think you may have missed my note above. I am completely roadblocked by not being able to render normal maps out of maya. They simply render as greyscale bump maps and looks awful.
So the above is simply a viewport grab, and that, in maya, is highly limited.
OK so what is cool is that it turns out I dont need to be where I was meant to be today! Yay, so I am in with a fighting chance with several hrs.
So, NOBODY in this entire comp has had to render normal maps (render, not viewport display) for their entry that can help me with a shader or some pointers? Please, pretty please. I would owe you big time. I can't get neither the pixero nor the headus one to work. I'm off delving into the search archives of cgtalk for now, but that shit is really starting to eat into my time
you can also export your model as OBJ and render it with derton's model viewer for doom3 ( easy to find on http://doom3world.org, if you have doom 3 or quake 4 though, pior rendered his girl with that one and I was planning to do the same thing)
Ah thanks. Yeah I mean all the solutions out there are just immensely time consuming. Displacement mapping in mray? Ive looked at that stuff before and its really complex. Not that Im not grateful to you for the links of course, but this is something maya should be able to do out of the box.
I cant get that drone shader to work at all. Gives me very funky results. I just dont know enough about the math behind it all to be tinkering around. I just want something that works off the bat and nothing seems to.
I dont have doom3 or quake3 installed but thanks.
That said, Im beginning to get results out of pixeros shader, but theres still some odd shit going on with sharp hi-lighting in some places but not others. Im gonna keep going with it instead of looking at 4 different solutions at once. Thanks for your help man.
Hmm just to clarify things, you actually don't need D3 nor Q4 to use that dertons thing, its all standalone Vahlou YOO FOOL
It also seems like the updated version of the viewer available from doom3world is not the greatest in terms of nmap rendering. Beh. I ave an older version sitting on my HD if you ever need it. If you want to see stuff in that app just pm me or send me your files over, I can set it up for you.
Yet I also think that focusing on one specific redering solution is smarter
Loving your results so far Daz, especially the way the modelling translates perfectly on the nmap model. I'm not quite sure about the color choices on the suit tho. Yet I know the final image is going to be killer, ha!
On a side note : do you have access to color specular? ATM it looks like every material is 'highlit' in the same way (= white highlights on everything) which makes the piece look a bit like a painted figure. I your shader don't allow colored spec, you might be able to get a more contrasted look by completely killing the spec in some spots.
What exactly is the problem you're having in Maya? I've yet to try it for this very reason, seems insanely difficult. I tried searching around a bit but you've probably only found the same. I dug out the Gnomon ZB/Maya DVD and watched how Meats Meier did it, he seems to be able to render them ok using some bullshit network with like 11 Nodes thats available at www.headus.com
np Daz I know for the time consuming thing, unfortunately, and yah, maya should be able to do it out of the box now.
for the model viewer, I just did a quick test and it seems you don't need doom3 to make it work, though the viewer isn't perfect ( seams, no alphas, no spec color....) you can still make your own 3-points lighting, add shadows, ambiant lighting, etc
you don't even need to set your models up for doom3 for this, the object I tested only had a diffuse and a bump map
Super, the issue is that normal maps simply render as bump and there is no alias or quick and easy solution for rendering them properly. Furthermore, even when you do finally figure it out by whatever 3rd party solution you find in the darkest recesses of the intermaweb, it requires *different* shaders than the type needed to get normal maps to show in the *viewport* ! So, as you can imagine, with multiple materials, it starts to rapidly become a MASSIVE pain in the arse.
Anyhoo, many thanks all. I *finally* got the pixero shader working, but the whole issue just killed my time.
I didn't make it. Waayyy too much to fix. This as far as I got. But I learnt tons and had fun. That's the main thing. Go polycount entries!
btw, I'll carry on and finish this guy anyway probably.
if i'm understanding your problem right, and i'm probably not, you can get maya to render normal maps fine in viewports, but it all goes tits up when you try and use the renderer?
i'm using maya 7.0.1 (in case there's any other versions) and it renders normal maps fine in viewports and renderer. http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/cottages/marine/normalrender.jpg
l-r highpoly with diffuse, lowpoly with normal, spec and diffuse, and lowpoly with normal only.
maybe it's a graphics card issue?
You are understanding the problem perfectly Marine
Normal maps render fine in the viewport, but render as bump maps in the software renderer.
Your render is Maya hardware, not software though. Or am I missing something here? I guarantee that If you rendered in software or mental ray it wouldn't render as a normal map, but as a bump map. Thanks though.
yeah, used hardware
there is a work around you could try, linking the normal map's outColour straight into your materials normalCamera, cutting the bump2d out of the shader, it seems to work in software
Hah, fun with Photoshop. Im surprised I didnt get the lens flare out.
Figured if I didnt finish this guy up tonight, chances are I would probably never pick him up again, so here's my first complete normal mapped char. Yay! Thanks to all those that helped me along the way, especially the mopster.
Submit it, they might allow a late entry due to bitch-ass software problems?
Kickass work anyway, the only bits i'm not sure about are the blue breastplate, and the shiny metal ab coverings... the blue just doesn't seem like any specific material, and the lines/scratches on the metal are looking a little too uniform and unrealistic.
however everything else is great, the face is really top quality (as always from you ), and it works very well as a stand-alone character.
good job despite maya's best efforts to defeat you
Very sweet entry Daz. The only real comment I have is something I also critted in the first verion of your reel, which is the pose of this character. It just doesn't make much sense.
First off, the pointing hand is in a very odd position. The writst is bent in a way that is very uncomfortable, and I think that shows. Generally when you point your finger with your elbow bent, your hand is on the same plane as your arm. It is possible as is, but very unlikely if the elbow is turned like on your pose (act it out, it's uncomfortable, you feel this in your shoulder). So I'd either strech the arm, or rotate the hand so it's on the same plane. I'd probably have done both, as well as lift the shoulder a bit.
There's also the distribution of weight, which I think should be shifted to his front leg. You could also put his weight on his back leg (commanding troups behind him sort of pose), but right now it kind of lacks motivation.
Apart from that, excellent entry, I hope it gets in after all!
for such a rush job, it's really great work daz, well done. I'd give fred a buzz, it'd be a shame not to see it in the comp because of software problems..
Replies
(or what vahl said.)
It's really not the viewport stuff that's the big stumbling block though. *rendering* normal maps in maya requires a PHD in nuclear physics or something, and I've just spent waaay too much time trying to figure it out. I can't believe it's this hard. RE3456: thanks for the link to those shaders, but I still found it an absolute nightmare. I must be stupid .
Anyway, I ploughed ahead anyway knowing I couldn't possibly finish and this is as far as I got with colour and spec. Way too much work to do to get it done in time but oh well, I tried. If Alias actually recognised that people use their software for making videogames I might have gotten closer.
If Alias actually recognised that people use their software for making videogames
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tell me about it
As far as the shader goes, now I feel a lot better before I thought it was just me being stupid of not knowing how to use the shaders, now I know we are both stupid
Both those shader 'solutions' started to make my head bleed. I just dont have time to mess about making extremely complex shader networks. Crazy. I guess this is something I need to sit down and properly figure out when I have time later.
LOL, lots to fix but I am still hanging in there by a thin thread!!
the thing is that right now it looks a bit too "plastic", and I know you can do way better than this, I saw your highpoly texturing, you can really do exactly the same (even faking SSS) with normal maps nowadays, i'd be very happy to see it rendered like that german soldier.
I really love the style of this entry, very clean, good job, especially for a second normalmapped model ( though I wasn't expecting less from you ^^
would be a shame if you're not gonna make it in time indeed, but if that happens, still finish it, you're so close, and it's such a cool character
the thing is that right now it looks a bit too "plastic", and I know you can do way better than this, I saw your highpoly texturing, you can really do exactly the same (even faking SSS) with normal maps nowadays,
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Hah easy for you to say sat there in front of Max
So the above is simply a viewport grab, and that, in maya, is highly limited.
OK so what is cool is that it turns out I dont need to be where I was meant to be today! Yay, so I am in with a fighting chance with several hrs.
So, NOBODY in this entire comp has had to render normal maps (render, not viewport display) for their entry that can help me with a shader or some pointers? Please, pretty please. I would owe you big time. I can't get neither the pixero nor the headus one to work. I'm off delving into the search archives of cgtalk for now, but that shit is really starting to eat into my time
I think you can use normal maps as displacement maps in mental ray (only got reported that fact, works in xsi, haven't tested in maya yet)
I also found a maya 5-like shader to render tangent space normals ( was working sometimes).
http://www.drone.org/tutorials/normal_maps.html
you can also export your model as OBJ and render it with derton's model viewer for doom3 ( easy to find on http://doom3world.org, if you have doom 3 or quake 4 though, pior rendered his girl with that one and I was planning to do the same thing)
here's a model (300-ish tris) I rendered last year with the tangent space shader above ( no tweaks, very quickly rendered
http://wip.global-illusions.com/blind/blind_normalmaptexwip3.jpg
I cant get that drone shader to work at all. Gives me very funky results. I just dont know enough about the math behind it all to be tinkering around. I just want something that works off the bat and nothing seems to.
I dont have doom3 or quake3 installed but thanks.
That said, Im beginning to get results out of pixeros shader, but theres still some odd shit going on with sharp hi-lighting in some places but not others. Im gonna keep going with it instead of looking at 4 different solutions at once. Thanks for your help man.
It also seems like the updated version of the viewer available from doom3world is not the greatest in terms of nmap rendering. Beh. I ave an older version sitting on my HD if you ever need it. If you want to see stuff in that app just pm me or send me your files over, I can set it up for you.
Yet I also think that focusing on one specific redering solution is smarter
Loving your results so far Daz, especially the way the modelling translates perfectly on the nmap model. I'm not quite sure about the color choices on the suit tho. Yet I know the final image is going to be killer, ha!
On a side note : do you have access to color specular? ATM it looks like every material is 'highlit' in the same way (= white highlights on everything) which makes the piece look a bit like a painted figure. I your shader don't allow colored spec, you might be able to get a more contrasted look by completely killing the spec in some spots.
Good luck General Hitman!
*EDIT* Shader: http://www.headus.com/au/samples/norm-MR/download/killeroo-poly-norm-MR-mb.zip - he just plugs his map into file node and renders away.
Failing that, maybe this one is some use: http://www.pixero.com/downloads_maya.html
This whole Maya Normal Mapping thing stinks, I was under the impression it was a simple bump2D node now too but I guess not.
for the model viewer, I just did a quick test and it seems you don't need doom3 to make it work, though the viewer isn't perfect ( seams, no alphas, no spec color....) you can still make your own 3-points lighting, add shadows, ambiant lighting, etc
you don't even need to set your models up for doom3 for this, the object I tested only had a diffuse and a bump map
here's the info page on derton's model viewer:
http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1281
can't wait to see what you'll come up with for your final render ^^
Edit : pior just told me that spec color was working in derton's viewer, my bad, sorry :P
Anyhoo, many thanks all. I *finally* got the pixero shader working, but the whole issue just killed my time.
I didn't make it.
btw, I'll carry on and finish this guy anyway probably.
i'm using maya 7.0.1 (in case there's any other versions) and it renders normal maps fine in viewports and renderer. http://www.planetquake.com/polycount/cottages/marine/normalrender.jpg
l-r highpoly with diffuse, lowpoly with normal, spec and diffuse, and lowpoly with normal only.
maybe it's a graphics card issue?
Normal maps render fine in the viewport, but render as bump maps in the software renderer.
Your render is Maya hardware, not software though. Or am I missing something here? I guarantee that If you rendered in software or mental ray it wouldn't render as a normal map, but as a bump map. Thanks though.
shame you didn't get it done on time, he was looking great, stop going out and socialising and be a shut-away bastard like the rest of us
there is a work around you could try, linking the normal map's outColour straight into your materials normalCamera, cutting the bump2d out of the shader, it seems to work in software
Hah, fun with Photoshop. Im surprised I didnt get the lens flare out.
Figured if I didnt finish this guy up tonight, chances are I would probably never pick him up again, so here's my first complete normal mapped char. Yay! Thanks to all those that helped me along the way, especially the mopster.
Kickass work anyway, the only bits i'm not sure about are the blue breastplate, and the shiny metal ab coverings... the blue just doesn't seem like any specific material, and the lines/scratches on the metal are looking a little too uniform and unrealistic.
however everything else is great, the face is really top quality (as always from you
good job despite maya's best efforts to defeat you
Yeah, what MoP said...submit it!
First off, the pointing hand is in a very odd position. The writst is bent in a way that is very uncomfortable, and I think that shows. Generally when you point your finger with your elbow bent, your hand is on the same plane as your arm. It is possible as is, but very unlikely if the elbow is turned like on your pose (act it out, it's uncomfortable, you feel this in your shoulder). So I'd either strech the arm, or rotate the hand so it's on the same plane. I'd probably have done both, as well as lift the shoulder a bit.
There's also the distribution of weight, which I think should be shifted to his front leg. You could also put his weight on his back leg (commanding troups behind him sort of pose), but right now it kind of lacks motivation.
Apart from that, excellent entry, I hope it gets in after all!