looks great mop! rotating the ribcage back a little and thrusting it out so the solar plexus is even higher might bring it even closer to the concept. Top stuff!
aesir... i had trouble understanding what you meant by your comment on the collar, but it was just placeholder anyway, i've done a bit more work on it now so maybe it fits better?
monsignor kite: Yeah, probably a good idea, however at this stage I think I'd be better off just doing that to the lowpoly model once the normals are rendered down, just for simplicity's sake.
Here's an update. Armour's getting detailed out, zbrush areas are still very WIP, but it's coming together:
Tom, haha, it would be that you say the opposite of what everyone else just said, and why I changed it to make it slimmer
Glad you like it... here's a new render, I think most of the techy stuff is done (apart from the sword/gun combo on his back), just a lot of Zbrushing to do now, and I'll get started on the lowpoly version.
I think a couple of the really nice dynamic elements of Tully's concepts are getting lost in the model.
From the top down, what I notice:
Model head is wider and larger bone mass than the concept head, this makes it seem less like a cohesive creature, and more like a regular guy with longer arms and legs. The models prongs don't seem to curve and taper the same way they do in the concept. They appear to sweep backwards much like a sharks fin, and they stay thick till about 2/3's of the way out, which lends them more credability of being stable.
The fingers stay thick in the model, and don't taper, which brings a lot of the visual ballance towards the end of the hands. The ribcage bulk seems to lay in the middle of the model, whereas it juts forward on the concept. This lends a nice barrel chested feel to the concept that doesn't carry over to the model.
The hips seem to be higher up on the model than on the concept, which shortens the torso.
The legs are much more tubular on the model than on the concept. They maintain about the right silhouette of girth, but it doesn't taper from front to back to imply muscles, bones, and tendons the same way it does at the concept level. The pants and the "ankle" area are the ones that distract the most that could be revisited.
I think the model is looking strong, but the concept shows off Tully's attention to subtlety and dynamic design, which is where the majority of the strength of the concept comes from, and to capitalize on that the model needs to be a bit closer to the concept methinks.
Poop: Yeah, good call on the head, I was thinking it was still a little too big myself.
As for some of your other points, I think it might be the angle of the render throwing some things off a bit. Here's a side view of the model as it stands now:
What you say about the prongs, well, they do sweep back in my version - I had them sweeping back more initially but I gave Tully a look at the model and she said they shouldn't curve back a whole lot, just a little - she thinks these ones are about right, and it's her concept, so she'd know!
As for the barrel-chestedness, that may also be the angle of the render, as you see from the side it does stick out quite a lot. Any more and I think it might become unbalanced.
Hands and legs are still very rough right now, like I said in my earlier post all the ZBrush areas (hands, arms, legs, feet and head) are very WIP right now, and subject to a lot of change since I haven't really touched them much yet other than to rough in basic shapes. Hence the tubular-ness of the legs and irregular finger shape.
I'm pretty sure the hips are the right height. I like 'em where they are at the moment.
Still a ways to go yet, so keep the feedback coming!
It's looking much more elegant now MoP. You may have interpreted the head proportions the way you did because on the concept he's looking slightly downwards, but I would elongate the head and neck a bit more.
I think you got the racial characteristics nailed to perfection, but, strangely enough, I miss more height around the neck and head. That would add more of a majestic presence to him I think and make him stand out as a leader of his particular race. Blabr blabr.
awesome work as always.
EDIT: Taking one more glanse at it - I don't think the head would benefit from becoming any bigger, but I still think there's something proportionwise that could be done to convey that almost imperial look from the concept. Also he's very tall, but that racial tallness doesn't reflect in the head anatomy. It's just a suggestion to maybe experiment more on the head proportions.
Cheers guys. Yeah NKoste, I said I'd be making the head smaller. I made his neck a little longer, and head narrower too, I think that looks a bit better.
Here's a Quicktime turnaround, it's a little fast because I forgot to change the frame rate, but you can scrub the timeslider to view from any angle.
Fixed the link so the movie actually loops now, although it's still spinning too fast.
I'm also making this post because of the forum bug that means the 61st post doesn't create a link to the 3rd page on the main list with default settings
Here's a more final turnaround render, 1.6 million polys and I'm pretty much done with the high-poly. I figure it's pointless adding all sorts of tiny surface detail in ZBrush since that'll just slow down the whole process, and I don't even know if the texture resolution would pick up tiny details anyway, so I'm just gonna post-add most of that in Photoshop.
Also, click here for a higher-res render. Ignore the way the mouth seems to be smiling, it's just a bad angle and poor lighting, it doesn't actually look like that 99% of the time.
OK, well I built the low-poly mesh and UV-mapped it today, 2600 triangles exactly. It's using a 512x1024 map, but I might shuffle that around later on. It seems to be working pretty well right now.
I rendered out a quick normal map test (didn't spend much time tweaking the projection cage or setting up objects, so there are some errors), and also rendered out a GI bake.
I uploaded some screengrabs from the 3dsmax viewport.
Normal map using Ben Cloward's 3-light shader (this looks cool as anything just spinning around, maybe I should render a preview or something):
Gouraud-shaded and wireframe in viewport. 2600 tris.
I think it's turning out pretty well so far. Gonna try and set up all the normal rendering stuff nicely tonight, some geometry also needs tweaking for better display. There are also some seams but that's mainly Max's fault, unfortunately.
That looks really fantastic MoP. I cannot wait to see this sucker with a nice diffuse texture. Why though, if the budget was for 5000 polys, did you only use 2600?
So you can make the initial highpoly model can be made out of several peices, completely neglecting any poly limit. Then what? How do you generate the normalmap and put it on a low poly? Just make a simple mesh and give it the same UV map?
Thanks guys, I think it turned out pretty well too
Scoob: The remaining 2400 (maybe more once I optimise this mesh a little) will be spent on his weapon and creature mount. I'm thinking about 2200 for the creature since it won't have as much fiddly little detail. I hope I can pull it off.
Makkon: Yeah, except you don't need to UV map the high-poly mesh at all (unless you want to!) In Max7 and Max8 you can use Render to Texture to render any information from a high-poly surface (bump map, diffuse, specular, whatever material properties), down to a flat texture file on the low-poly mesh's UV's. I wrote a quick mini-tutorial over at CGChat here, but it seems that the site is a bit screwed at the moment so not all the image attachments are showing.
I don't know if Maya makes it so easy. I suppose there's no harm done in learning a new program. Perhaps I can use both.....unless Maya can do the same?
Thanks, MoP. I really appreciate your help. Hell, I love this whole community, everyone is willing to help.
Just one more question. On your highpoly version, did you model those straps as a seperate mesh, or did you model them out from the origonal mesh? Like, an extrusion?
They're a separate mesh. Most of the fiddly little detail you see there is separate meshes just floating over the basic geometry, it'd be a real hassle to actually model all of those into the high-poly mesh, much easier to leave them separate and resting on top of the mesh, you can't tell the difference in the final normal map anyway.
Makes sense. Do you have to uvmap the seperate stuff too? like map it, move it to the right place on the map? Or does it just generate it okay anyway? Sorry for playing 20 questions, there's just so much I don't know.
Looking really great Paul. Definitely a nice result out of that map. You really do have to look closely to spot that its the low model with a normal map.
Makkon, the only thing you need to unwrap is the low poly version of the model.
This is great model. From concept to end...
I especially like how everything on the model looks as though it was planned to be there and not added just for fluff. All details look to have a valid reason for being there. Great job!
Cheers guys. I'm happy with how it's turning out too. Tully's not been able to get on the internet for the past few days so she hasn't even seen it yet!
Valandar: Yep, they're throwing knives. Or at least my poor imitation of what throwing knives might look like.
MILES: Thanks... yeah, that what we think is the mark of a good character model - everything should "belong" to the character and have a reason for being there, it's what makes them seem more believable.
Nifty pose! I take it you've started texturing. What's with the read line down his face?
Btw, that normal map really makes it pop. You should put this sucker into Q4 when you're done. Come to think of it, we all should... definate quality assurance.
Thought i would pipe up. Great work so far mop. That radiosity bake is looking might sexy. In my head i think that the specular would look strange as it passed over the baked shadows but i can't even see it on your posed shot there.
great work, I am really having to push myself to get my low poly mesh finished/uv'd.. so its good motivation to see that you've done that already, I need to catch up!!
Seriously man, this is tops. Marvelous job. I don't think i agree with palcemenet of the knives or the number of them, youd proabably be better off strapping them onto the chest and flat normal mapping them in. Bandoliers would make sense to hold them=/
That aside, great great great. I kiss to your face! HIGH FIVVVVVEEEE!
The normal maps came out great, I really like the hands and face. That strap running across the chest looks a little flat though. Interesting color choices too, they match quite nicely.
Is that a 3 point light render? Or a mental ray with the SSS skin shader.
Looks very nice:)
Only crit would be with the belt and straps. They don't quit read as leather or cloth yet. I'm sure the spec will sort that out.
I agree with Daz...i actually thought the line was a texture seam at first. Perhaps, you could pull it from the armor?
keep it coming!
B
Daz: Yeah, hehe, it does look a bit seam-ish... we're trying to play that down by echoing the red line elsewhere (on the pants and jacket stripes), might end up embellishing it more as a tattoo or war paint though... we'll see.
Modeling_Man: Yep, that was just a 3-point light setup, 3 Omnis in max. Those last images are viewport screengrabs scaled down slightly. New ones here are renders with 2 omnis and one shadow-mapped spotlight.
After talking with Tully we decided to change the colours to make him seem more leaderlike, less footsoldiery (the green was doing that). Also added glowy bits, shifted the skin tone a little, he's pretty close to done. Just some spec map tweaks, maybe I'll push the reflection map a little more too.
He has Diffuse, Specular (colour/level), Glossiness, Glow, Reflection Mask & Environment maps. Some maybe need a bit of tweaking, but I'm gonna concentrate on the base and mount now, this guy is at a submittable level even if he's not entirely polished.
Some pics and videos for you:
I'd better get a move on... creature to zbrush, model lowpoly, UV, rig, texture, oh and that whole thing with the base too... gnaah!
Yeah, I considered that, but it only works in viewport, not in render, right? I want my final image to be rendered with cast shadows, you can't do that in a viewport unfortunately. Maybe I'll mess around with the diffuse and spec more to try and fake it.
Replies
aesir... i had trouble understanding what you meant by your comment on the collar, but it was just placeholder anyway, i've done a bit more work on it now so maybe it fits better?
monsignor kite: Yeah, probably a good idea, however at this stage I think I'd be better off just doing that to the lowpoly model once the normals are rendered down, just for simplicity's sake.
Here's an update. Armour's getting detailed out, zbrush areas are still very WIP, but it's coming together:
good shit!
Glad you like it... here's a new render, I think most of the techy stuff is done (apart from the sword/gun combo on his back), just a lot of Zbrushing to do now, and I'll get started on the lowpoly version.
From the top down, what I notice:
Model head is wider and larger bone mass than the concept head, this makes it seem less like a cohesive creature, and more like a regular guy with longer arms and legs. The models prongs don't seem to curve and taper the same way they do in the concept. They appear to sweep backwards much like a sharks fin, and they stay thick till about 2/3's of the way out, which lends them more credability of being stable.
The fingers stay thick in the model, and don't taper, which brings a lot of the visual ballance towards the end of the hands. The ribcage bulk seems to lay in the middle of the model, whereas it juts forward on the concept. This lends a nice barrel chested feel to the concept that doesn't carry over to the model.
The hips seem to be higher up on the model than on the concept, which shortens the torso.
The legs are much more tubular on the model than on the concept. They maintain about the right silhouette of girth, but it doesn't taper from front to back to imply muscles, bones, and tendons the same way it does at the concept level. The pants and the "ankle" area are the ones that distract the most that could be revisited.
I think the model is looking strong, but the concept shows off Tully's attention to subtlety and dynamic design, which is where the majority of the strength of the concept comes from, and to capitalize on that the model needs to be a bit closer to the concept methinks.
Poop: Yeah, good call on the head, I was thinking it was still a little too big myself.
As for some of your other points, I think it might be the angle of the render throwing some things off a bit. Here's a side view of the model as it stands now:
What you say about the prongs, well, they do sweep back in my version - I had them sweeping back more initially but I gave Tully a look at the model and she said they shouldn't curve back a whole lot, just a little - she thinks these ones are about right, and it's her concept, so she'd know!
As for the barrel-chestedness, that may also be the angle of the render, as you see from the side it does stick out quite a lot. Any more and I think it might become unbalanced.
Hands and legs are still very rough right now, like I said in my earlier post all the ZBrush areas (hands, arms, legs, feet and head) are very WIP right now, and subject to a lot of change since I haven't really touched them much yet other than to rough in basic shapes. Hence the tubular-ness of the legs and irregular finger shape.
I'm pretty sure the hips are the right height. I like 'em where they are at the moment.
Still a ways to go yet, so keep the feedback coming!
I think you got the racial characteristics nailed to perfection, but, strangely enough, I miss more height around the neck and head. That would add more of a majestic presence to him I think and make him stand out as a leader of his particular race. Blabr blabr.
awesome work as always.
EDIT: Taking one more glanse at it - I don't think the head would benefit from becoming any bigger, but I still think there's something proportionwise that could be done to convey that almost imperial look from the concept. Also he's very tall, but that racial tallness doesn't reflect in the head anatomy. It's just a suggestion to maybe experiment more on the head proportions.
Here's a Quicktime turnaround, it's a little fast because I forgot to change the frame rate, but you can scrub the timeslider to view from any angle.
700kb Quicktime Turnaround
Enjoy
I'm also making this post because of the forum bug that means the 61st post doesn't create a link to the 3rd page on the main list with default settings
Here's a more final turnaround render, 1.6 million polys and I'm pretty much done with the high-poly. I figure it's pointless adding all sorts of tiny surface detail in ZBrush since that'll just slow down the whole process, and I don't even know if the texture resolution would pick up tiny details anyway, so I'm just gonna post-add most of that in Photoshop.
Also, click here for a higher-res render. Ignore the way the mouth seems to be smiling, it's just a bad angle and poor lighting, it doesn't actually look like that 99% of the time.
OK, well I built the low-poly mesh and UV-mapped it today, 2600 triangles exactly. It's using a 512x1024 map, but I might shuffle that around later on. It seems to be working pretty well right now.
I rendered out a quick normal map test (didn't spend much time tweaking the projection cage or setting up objects, so there are some errors), and also rendered out a GI bake.
I uploaded some screengrabs from the 3dsmax viewport.
Normal map using Ben Cloward's 3-light shader (this looks cool as anything just spinning around, maybe I should render a preview or something):
Gouraud-shaded and wireframe in viewport. 2600 tris.
I think it's turning out pretty well so far. Gonna try and set up all the normal rendering stuff nicely tonight, some geometry also needs tweaking for better display. There are also some seams but that's mainly Max's fault, unfortunately.
Onward, regardless of lack of replies!
Scoob: The remaining 2400 (maybe more once I optimise this mesh a little) will be spent on his weapon and creature mount. I'm thinking about 2200 for the creature since it won't have as much fiddly little detail. I hope I can pull it off.
Makkon: Yeah, except you don't need to UV map the high-poly mesh at all (unless you want to!) In Max7 and Max8 you can use Render to Texture to render any information from a high-poly surface (bump map, diffuse, specular, whatever material properties), down to a flat texture file on the low-poly mesh's UV's. I wrote a quick mini-tutorial over at CGChat here, but it seems that the site is a bit screwed at the moment so not all the image attachments are showing.
http://www.jeffparrott.com/normalmaptut_01.html
Just one more question. On your highpoly version, did you model those straps as a seperate mesh, or did you model them out from the origonal mesh? Like, an extrusion?
Makkon, the only thing you need to unwrap is the low poly version of the model.
I especially like how everything on the model looks as though it was planned to be there and not added just for fluff. All details look to have a valid reason for being there. Great job!
Valandar: Yep, they're throwing knives. Or at least my poor imitation of what throwing knives might look like.
MILES: Thanks... yeah, that what we think is the mark of a good character model - everything should "belong" to the character and have a reason for being there, it's what makes them seem more believable.
Btw, that normal map really makes it pop. You should put this sucker into Q4 when you're done. Come to think of it, we all should... definate quality assurance.
Great clean work as always mop.
That aside, great great great. I kiss to your face! HIGH FIVVVVVEEEE!
Here's a bit more progress. Mainly working on the diffuse and normal maps in Photoshop, the spec map is entirely temporary at the moment.
The normal maps came out great, I really like the hands and face. That strap running across the chest looks a little flat though. Interesting color choices too, they match quite nicely.
Looks very nice:)
Only crit would be with the belt and straps. They don't quit read as leather or cloth yet. I'm sure the spec will sort that out.
I agree with Daz...i actually thought the line was a texture seam at first. Perhaps, you could pull it from the armor?
keep it coming!
B
face and eyes are particularly cool
Daz: Yeah, hehe, it does look a bit seam-ish... we're trying to play that down by echoing the red line elsewhere (on the pants and jacket stripes), might end up embellishing it more as a tattoo or war paint though... we'll see.
Modeling_Man: Yep, that was just a 3-point light setup, 3 Omnis in max. Those last images are viewport screengrabs scaled down slightly. New ones here are renders with 2 omnis and one shadow-mapped spotlight.
After talking with Tully we decided to change the colours to make him seem more leaderlike, less footsoldiery (the green was doing that). Also added glowy bits, shifted the skin tone a little, he's pretty close to done. Just some spec map tweaks, maybe I'll push the reflection map a little more too.
He has Diffuse, Specular (colour/level), Glossiness, Glow, Reflection Mask & Environment maps. Some maybe need a bit of tweaking, but I'm gonna concentrate on the base and mount now, this guy is at a submittable level even if he's not entirely polished.
Some pics and videos for you:
I'd better get a move on... creature to zbrush, model lowpoly, UV, rig, texture, oh and that whole thing with the base too... gnaah!