Hey Elexis Sinclair has a nude skin that came with the game and she masturbates yet the game (SiN) never got caught under fire, it's just the GTA series have a high profile enough to get negative media attention (Speaking the obvious here though)
[ QUOTE ]
Adam, no, there is full-on nudity... women without a stitch of clothing on.
Still though, I'd hope the case doesn't have a leg to stand on, since it's not accessible at all from the "unmodded" game, and you'd have to know what you were doing in order to install the mod to reveal these "removed elements", so it's entirely the user to blame, not Rockstar.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes but "Any tech savvy 12 year old with a computer can do it"
So what? Any tech savvy 12 year old with a computer can hack a Windows machine and write a virus that takes down half the world's computer infrastructure. That's certainly not an intended feature though Microsoft should be liable for errors in their software that cause this much damage.
Well, this thing clearly shows the hypocrisy in the US moral system, porn is evil, violence is meh, pornography is censored, violence is free speech, etc. The government should define porn as free speech (many types of speech have no message, no reason to single out porn for it. Hollywood movies aren't speech either) and force TV stations to randomly replace a few shows with porn. The faster they get used to it the better. Hell, why not abolish those public indecency laws that force people to wear clothes? Why not let them run around naked in public? The more everyone accepts sex as part of life the less desperate teenagers will become when it comes to porn. Also, more knowledge about sex means they know better what sex implies, i.e. less unwanted pregnancies.
oXY: I'm not EQ. And I'm not gay. How could you make such a terrible mistake?!
But i do agree that humans, not only evolved from apes, but are in many ways in today's modern society still very similar to monkeys. In your case, intelligence. There seems to be a line blurred in this conversation between what is sexual intercourse, and what is pornography. My theory is many like you learned the birds and the bees from your daddy's secret stash of Hustler back when you were in preschool. One thing I don't see in your pics, oXYmoron (ha, revenge!), is the female monkey saying "OH YES, yeah baby, fuck me harder! That's it. Cum in my mouth big boy. Oh god! That's it... now shit on my chest. Ummmm. That feels so good. That'll be $20. See you next Tuesday." But, I could be mistaken. Not knowing who your real father is and being raised by a mother who sells drugs to buy baby formula and child support checks to buy beer must be quite the miracle to behold. I believe monkeys take better care of their young.
Don't take my insults too seriously. I've just been out in the heat too long.
"Not knowing who your real father is and being raised by a mother who sells drugs to buy baby formula and child support checks to buy beer must be quite the miracle to behold."
So is your issue really the breakdown of the "family" unit?
it's a game about gangstas and ho's, I think to portray that lifestyle as happy happy joy joy, life's a bed-of-roses would actually be way more irresponsible.. but having said that the story *does actually promote family values, and portrays drugs in a negative way. I take my hat off to rockstar frankly.
its a dark, funny game and to sugar-coat it would destroy a large part of the appeal in my opinion.
edit: also, why should a "tech savvy 12 year old" be playing an M/18 rated game? that's not rockstar's fault.
Oxy: His point was that sex can be wrong. Now movies/games don't make someone do something, but it can sure influence them. If a 14 year old girl from a low income family has sex, gets pregnant, can't support her child, has to turn to drastic measures... well you get the point.
[ QUOTE ]
Sex is sex is sex. Any other meaning is what we add to it. There is nothing wrong with it.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the point being argued here. It's not black and white as you put it. That's just like saying all sex is the same, and all people who drink alcohol are the same.
How old are you Oxy? Sorry, it's sort of irrelevant, but it seems be a factor (doesn't seem like you have kids or are even close).
I wasn't sticking up for the fact that video games influence anything, I remember playing Mortal Kombat when I was young and watching Commando, yet I never had the urge to kill anybody ... yet
KDR_11K that's actually a bit disturbing considering how kids can't go and buy porn at least that is how it was when I was a kid or are not supposed to be allowed to see R rated movies at the cinemas without an adult. I can't see how enforcing the ratings is unconstitutional after all isn't that why they were made for in the first place to protect kids. Talk about double standards.
Oh I thought the rated M meant no one under 18 should play the game. Someone who is 18 is an adult legally speaking so why is there another rating? Just seems like a lot of BS if you asked me, like I stated earlier.
Older than I sound. My experience is with frank discussions with the opposite sex. More of them want one night stands and the pleasure of not knowing the other person than our society cares to admit. They can be less inhibited and just go with it. Its not just a male thing. I.E. PURE F'ING SEX!!!
Btw games do influence us. It has been proven time and time again with all other media. But that wasnt up for discussion. I just found it funny that the games can be violent and still make it into peoples hands even with people protesting, but if sex enters the equation... You have a politician going "OH MY GOD! YOU SICK PUPPIES!"
So to bring around its like telling us its ok to have pleasure from death, but not from two (or more) people enjoying themselves together in the process of precreation (if a child is the end result or not).
..last post.. Im sure Gauss is pissed that this went on after he asked it not to continue.
Just to clear up the Tech Savvy 12 year old comment I was in fact making fun of the Today show and ABC's World News Now :P
Like you guys have said what the hell would a 12 year old be doing with the game anyhow unless the parents/older siblings bought it and they played it.
Well, obviously every 12 year old with a computer will have downloaded GTASA from some warez site with the hot coffe patch already included. He'll also have a few gigabytes of porn on his harddrive so it's not like that's anything new.
Sage: But that's not what the constitution says. The US constitution grants the "right to free speech", not "the right to free speech as long as someone thinks of the children". That's one of the big differences between the US and Germany.
the Australian OFLC (ESRB equivelent) is now investing gateing the claims aswell. problem is over here MA15+ is our maximum rating, so anything greater is RF - Refused Clasification and baned. there is a lot of argument about this over here, since film has an R18+ rating, and games are supposedly rated to the same standards film, so where isn't there an R18+ for games? (although in my oppinion if a game needs to be rater R18+ then it's probably an attempt to bost sales using exsesive sex/gore/whatever).
in this case i think it is irrelevant, it's a mod, not the game with the content in question. even if it was in the game to begin with it's not accessable off the shelf or by any official plugin.
the sims had a nude patch put out for it - they didn't worry about that!
Some of you are still replying is if this was a user created mod that put all those assets into the game, and are afraid that the chance for a game to have mods will affect ratings. So this arguement feels a bit off track from the beginning.
Here's a statement from the mod creators website:
[ QUOTE ]
After reading various discussion about this mod around the internet, I would like to make the following statement:
All the contents of this mod was already available on the original disks. Therefor the scriptcode, the models, the animations and the dialogs by the original voice-actors were all created by RockStar. The only thing I had to do to enable the mini-games was toggling a single bit in the main.scm file. The Nude models that are used as a bonus in the Quick action version of the mod, were also already present on the original disk.
[/ QUOTE ]
My thoughts are, if it was included in the game CD, then it's in the game and the developers responsibility. They didn't attempt to remove or replace the nude model textures or voice audio. I'm sure doing so would not affect the code or stability of the game. Therefore, I don't believe they "wisely" removed anything. It appears they left EVERYTHING for someone to discover after it's release, and cause more controversy, and of course boost sales. So that's my counterpoint to the "it's just a mod" debate. There are a lot of talented little coders in the game community that will find these treasures over time.
ElysiumGX: Yes, yes, well done, all the stuff is in the game by standard.
There's a big button when little 15-year-old Johnny starts the game saying "SKIP DIRECTLY TO HARDCORE PIXEL PORN"...
No! How evil! Rockstar perverting our children who shouldn't be playing the game anyway!
If parents are letting their kids download and install mods to re-implement the removed code, then that's their dumb fault for not paying attention, and for buying their kids the game in the first place.
It is NOT in the game by standard, it HAS to be activated with knowledge and understanding, so it should have no legal grounds.
Sure, you can bitch all week about how Rockstar were un-ethical or whatever for actually having the models/animations and theory present, but at the end of the day, all of that stuff is NOT ACCESSIBLE from the game, unless the user knowingly and willingly installs an unofficial, unsupported, third-party modification.
For all I know there are some secret animations in the Quake3 PAK0.PK3, saved under an innocuous filename, where Sarge does Mynx in the ass for 2 hours. Just nobody released a mod to activate it... BUT IT'S STILL THERE, CORRUPTING OUR CHILDREN!!!
[ QUOTE ]
She’s just going after an easy issue to get some
political points. In reality, she doesn’t give
a shit, nor have a clue what she’s talking about.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yet the opposite, the process of creating life, and human intimacy.
OMG YOU SICKOS!
[/ QUOTE ]
That would be a great arguement. But, when I think of the miracle of creating life, and human intimacy... http://www.elysiumvisions.com/images/GTAsucks.jpg
...this is not the first image that comes to mind. If it's your's, I suggest you delete all those gigs of porn, wash your hands, and get a girlfriend.
The nature in which it is acted out is pornography. Any other part of this discussion isn't worth debating anymore. Everything is just fine, until it's too fucked up we don't know where we went wrong. And then politics, and death, and the screaming.
And yes there is plenty wrong with the violence in these games, but that is a separate and tired discussion. I never look at a games rating, and most parents probably don't either.
[/ QUOTE ]
I hate to break it to you buddy, but youre the exception, not the other way around.
Most people who are in a good intimate relationship (unless theyve been married for like 30 years) go at it whenever, wherever, and however is most convenient. If that happens to be in a jail cell after the two of you got arrested for indecent exposure then so be it.
Chances are you were conceived after a good romp so I wouldnt be sticking up your nose at anyone else.
Personally I have to wonder if the ignorance stance taken by North America is the best way to go about protecting our kids. It just doesnt seem to be working. Maybe if kids were given the whole truth they wouldnt have to be in such a hurry to see what its like for themselves.
Theyd know and could decide yes Im ready/interested or no Im not ready/not interested.
We need to stop patronizing kids too - I think its better to trust in them, then to say theyre not mature enough to make the decision. Wake up. They are going to make the decision because its their decision to make. All we can do is give them the facts, bring them up with good values and hope when the time comes they make the right choice for them.
That may be a little off topic but I still think it's relevant since this is all about "protecting the children".
If kids were properly educated then something like this wouldn't need to be an issue, and from a kid's point of view I don't think it's an issue at all.
[ QUOTE ]
I hate to break it to you buddy, but youre the exception, not the other way around.
[/ QUOTE ]
could you be more specific?
[ QUOTE ]
Chances are you were conceived after a good romp so I wouldnt be sticking up your nose at anyone else.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can honestly say it's not a great feeling being told you were an accident. And after 22 years, your parents still act as if you were never born while you try to build a life for yourself. I don't wish that on anyone, so I won't make the same mistake they did.
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe if kids were given the whole truth they wouldnt have to be in such a hurry to see what its like for themselves.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with your there.
[ QUOTE ]
If kids were properly educated then something like this wouldn't need to be an issue, and from a kid's point of view I don't think it's an issue at all.
[/ QUOTE ]
We can start by educating them in the difference between "intimacy" and "carnal lust". Because it appears that you and so many others easily confuse them. And the latter seems to be the only one portrayed in this "mod". It's difficult to find meaning to your life when the method in which you were created was also meaningless.
I'm glad people like Hillary are stepping in. If anything, to bring the issue to the attention of all parents so they can do their job more effectively.
I don't think "being irresponsible fucks" is caused by video games. In fact I doubt your parents were playing GTA.
You're right, the sexual repression is a grave mistake in the western world. When noone teaches these children how it works they have to find it out themselves or deduce it from what's available to them (porn). Taking away the porn won't do much, a vagina doesn't come with a manual saying "remember to take the pill every single day" and a penis doesn't have "use only with condom" printed on its side*. Of course sexual education doesn't fly with the fundamentalist religious nutcases who think that telling their children not to fuck before marriage is going to help. Children are rebels, our cultures glorify rebellion and "being not mainstream", no wonder they'll be even more intent on fucking someone when their parents tell them not to, just as they're more likely to open daddy's secret drawer when they're repeatedly told not to.
Though telling people only "don't do this" without giving a reason never worked, that's portrayed as despotism. Always give a reason if you want a rule to be taken seriously, stuff like "don't be bad" is useless, stuff like "don't be bad, else Santa won't bring presents" works much better as long as the child believes the justification is valid. Hell, even emperors gave reasons for why THEY should rule and noone else (usually "God gave me the right!").
*= I'm actually surprised no American tried to sue God for this oversight.
If the mod guys did actually decompile code in order to create the minigame, then they are responsible and in violation of the EULA. Shame on Rockstar for including the content in the game (they couldn't take time to recompile a few assets?), but...
What we have on our hands here is the type of temporary moral outrage that Bruce Sterling describes in 'Tomorrow Now'. Somebody is caught publicly doing something that everyone basically does on the sly. But they have to get in trouble for it, because everyone else feels the need to assert that they weren't doing it. So in order to celebrate their not-me-ness, there's Senate speeches, and maybe a Federal investigation and perhaps somebody might do six months, like Martha Stewart. And then... after the news people are tired of it... people go back to EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE DOING BEFORE. The end result is, nothing changes.
So just cool your heels and wait.
I'm on Rockstar's (presumed) side: the world isn't ready for mass-market interactive porn. Even if it's only Showtime After Hours level porn.
"Federal Trace Commission"? Are they responsible for finding traces of cocaine in CEO offices? Or tracking calls when the FBI isn't available?
jzero: I've heard claims of getting it to work by altering one byte in an XBox savegame and the hackers themselves say they didn't do much to create the hack, I have a feeling that's just Rockstar throwing some lies around to cover their tracks.
I meant that for a lot of people intimacy and reproduction is the act of sex wherever, whenever, and however it takes place. I think youre getting intimacy and romance mixed up.
What they are portraying may not be romantic but its sure as hell intimate, and romance is not a necessity, or an indication of responsibility. Hell Im sure most womanizers out there are romantics.
I can also say with conviction that if I were to have a child because of a lustful encounter I would be no less of a parent then if I had planned it. Lust and responsibility are not mutually exclusive terms in most people.
Like most politicians Hillary puts her nose where it doesnt belong - thats why shes a politician. If she really wanted to help shed push for better sex education and support for kids in general, but then shed alienate all those conservative voters because sex is a taboo subject.
I think its fairly obvious this is a move on her part to appeal to the conservatives of America. Its transparent, but its safe because most likely nothing will come of it either way, and no one can call her on it without looking bad.
Got to love democracy.
Unfortunately Im going to make the somewhat broad statement that parents are either responsible or theyre not. If theyre not nothing is going to change that, because they obviously don't care.
[ QUOTE ]
jzero: I've heard claims of getting it to work by altering one byte in an XBox savegame and the hackers themselves say they didn't do much to create the hack, I have a feeling that's just Rockstar throwing some lies around to cover their tracks.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll bet that the 'single byte shift' story has about as much credence as the 'decompiled code' story, and both are certainly CYA statements (Cover Your Ass).
Rick staying out of this thread on purpose? Or just not posting lately?
jzero: The hacker claimed in the readme that it was just a minor modification to unlock existing code, he probably didn't know how much media attention it'll gather at that point, especially considering the sheer volume of "AO" content produced by modders on the net that never gets attention.
Leland Yee's What The Fuck did you just say moment
[ QUOTE ]
"If, in fact, as Rockstar claims, these sexually explicit minigames were never in their games whatsoever, then I would assume that these hackers have violated the copyright of Rockstar games, of Grand Theft Auto, and that Rockstar should, in fact, take every action that they can to sue every single penny of those individuals who would violate their copyright," Yee said. "I haven't seen any of that at all, and that's why I'm suspicious of Rockstar's position of innocence."
[/ QUOTE ]
In related news I don't know how she did it but my Niece and her friend say they were able to get Hot Coffee to show up on the PS2 version!! I have yet to confirm this but she is not one to normally lie about this trpe of thing....they are both 16 BTW
There are Action Replay codes for it, I think by now it's clear that this IS derelict code. Still doesn't matter, sounds like they were thinking of including it because God of War had sex minigames and nudity and got rated M but then someone got cold feet and ordered it to be removed. Probably shortly before the game shipped so they just commented out the line that triggered it instead of trying to hunt down all the involved code and its dependencies. Throw all the assets in the repossitory on the disc, no time to go through them again, no point either. Someone finds out how to trigger that code, BOOM, PR desaster. Or free publicity, depending on your point of view.
So what if Rockstar was proven to be perverted liars...it still doesn't matter. There are worst things in the world. People are getting killed in Iraq. Porn is only natural. 16 year old girls will never be able to play something like this. It's not like they're EA.
That still dosen't seem to hold much water to me. All it proves is that the old code for the minigame is there, no if it can be access from in the game.
It's really simple to have say a boolean varible that they were using to toggle "questionable" material. While the console cheat device may not be able to modify the data directly on the drive it can still modify that data stored on the heap, stack, etc. They may even be able to re-write code loaded into memory and point it to another address, although I'm not familiar enough with the cheat device to know if this is true.
You cannot access it from the game, that was never disputed. We argued about the degree of the modification, i.e. if Rockstar made all that and just removed the calling line or if that guy added it by himself. Rockstar's press release is worded in a way that suggests that the creator of that patch made it all himself and he clearly didn't disassemble the binary, contrary to Rockstar's claims (he used a hex editor and poked around in the main.scm, looks like a script file to me).
The AR can alter the memory as the user sees fit, it's often used to unlock disabled code segments.
aaargh, my brain hurts, I really hope she doesn't run for president and if she does I hope the republicans put someone decent against her. I was under the impression that games rated M for Mature can't be sold to anyone 17 or under.. which would make it the equivalent to an NC-17 movie.... so lets just change the game ratings to mirror movie ratings.... slap a NC-17 on GTA.
i don't think a women will be president of the united states for a long while - society isn't ready imho.
the ESRB has an AO rating (adult only) which is the equivilant of R/NC-17.
developers and publishers do not want to have their game with this rating due to a large hit in sales (WAL*MART will not sale adult only games)
problem with this scenario is, the game was rated and on shelves without this hidden content taken into account. if rockstar did this for a publicity stunt, they should be punished for their childishness. after some silence, their official statement however states the content was hidden in their game by hackers..
man, if rockstar did do this for publicity, that's a damn selfish thing to do. may not be much, but i would never buy a game by any of the rockstars if that's true.
i wonder how they're going to go about retracting their "it's all a hacker's fault" statement, since it's in the ps2 version, also.
... Im still not seeing the huge freeking deal. the ESRB shouldb't take into account things that are in a game, but inaccessable without altering it. As its been said the action replay and gameshark are hacking tools for normally non hackable media.
Hell N-vidia's "signature" tech demos for their cards, (nalue and dawn specifically) have included nudity, but unless you know what to look for, and how to alter the demo it would never show up. UT2004 has a toilet on wheels for a test vehicle, that there is no code for.
The point is that blaming rockstar for this is like blaming winchester for the Kennedy assasination.
AO is equivalent to the X rating, not the R rating. All but one AO rated game have "sexuality" as one of or their only reason for the rating. The remaining one has gambling and nothing else. AO is pretty much restricted to porn, although the ESRB claims differently no amount of violence can get you an AO rating (or is there a way to top God of War and Manhunt?).
Their statement doesn't really say the "hackers" added that, they just say it was hard to unlock. But it's worded the yellow press way, i.e. when you read it you THINK they said the patch added it.
UT2004 has a toilet on wheels for a test vehicle, that there is no code for.
Not true, if you finish the singleplayer campaign as Mr. Crow the TC-1200 gets unlocked in Vehicle Arena. The easier way is to simply use a third party mutator that displays all vehicles (you need that for user-made vehicles anyway) or spawn "ONSFull.GenericSD" (or something like that).
Justin: Neither MPAA nor ESRB ratings are legally binding, the MPAA just enforces them itself. While some of the larger stores will card you many smaller ones, especially those without ethics (e.g. EBGames) won't and it takes just one that's not playing by the rules to get the game into kid's hands. Crooks like EBGames consider that if they're the only ones to sell M and AO rated games to minors they get more business than the other stores.
Though for some reason parents still ignore the ratings when buying games for their kids, apparently believing that all games are for kids and can't contain anything objectionable. You know, kinda like how they believe all cartoons are for kids until they accidentally rent a hentai movie for their 7 year old. That's where carding always fails, a kid with ignorant parents can just bring one of them along to buy Manhunt for them.
Replies
Adam, no, there is full-on nudity... women without a stitch of clothing on.
Still though, I'd hope the case doesn't have a leg to stand on, since it's not accessible at all from the "unmodded" game, and you'd have to know what you were doing in order to install the mod to reveal these "removed elements", so it's entirely the user to blame, not Rockstar.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes but "Any tech savvy 12 year old with a computer can do it"
Well, this thing clearly shows the hypocrisy in the US moral system, porn is evil, violence is meh, pornography is censored, violence is free speech, etc. The government should define porn as free speech (many types of speech have no message, no reason to single out porn for it. Hollywood movies aren't speech either) and force TV stations to randomly replace a few shows with porn. The faster they get used to it the better. Hell, why not abolish those public indecency laws that force people to wear clothes? Why not let them run around naked in public? The more everyone accepts sex as part of life the less desperate teenagers will become when it comes to porn. Also, more knowledge about sex means they know better what sex implies, i.e. less unwanted pregnancies.
Free the porn!
anyways Viva la porn!
http://salmon.psy.plym.ac.uk/year1/psy128sexual_behaviour/rat_sex2.jpg
http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/354759/2/Wild_Monkey_Sex.jpg
They all strikingly seem familiar to your picture. Sex is sex is sex. Any other meaning is what we add to it. There is nothing wrong with it.
But i do agree that humans, not only evolved from apes, but are in many ways in today's modern society still very similar to monkeys. In your case, intelligence. There seems to be a line blurred in this conversation between what is sexual intercourse, and what is pornography. My theory is many like you learned the birds and the bees from your daddy's secret stash of Hustler back when you were in preschool. One thing I don't see in your pics, oXYmoron (ha, revenge!), is the female monkey saying "OH YES, yeah baby, fuck me harder! That's it. Cum in my mouth big boy. Oh god! That's it... now shit on my chest. Ummmm. That feels so good. That'll be $20. See you next Tuesday." But, I could be mistaken. Not knowing who your real father is and being raised by a mother who sells drugs to buy baby formula and child support checks to buy beer must be quite the miracle to behold. I believe monkeys take better care of their young.
Don't take my insults too seriously. I've just been out in the heat too long.
"Not knowing who your real father is and being raised by a mother who sells drugs to buy baby formula and child support checks to buy beer must be quite the miracle to behold."
So is your issue really the breakdown of the "family" unit?
its a dark, funny game and to sugar-coat it would destroy a large part of the appeal in my opinion.
edit: also, why should a "tech savvy 12 year old" be playing an M/18 rated game? that's not rockstar's fault.
Sex is only wrong when it isnt sex versus rape.
Bha! No, its all these darn videogames. And that awfull titt seen on the superbowl.
Sex is sex is sex. Any other meaning is what we add to it. There is nothing wrong with it.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's the point being argued here. It's not black and white as you put it. That's just like saying all sex is the same, and all people who drink alcohol are the same.
How old are you Oxy? Sorry, it's sort of irrelevant, but it seems be a factor (doesn't seem like you have kids or are even close).
I wasn't sticking up for the fact that video games influence anything, I remember playing Mortal Kombat when I was young and watching Commando, yet I never had the urge to kill anybody
Oh I thought the rated M meant no one under 18 should play the game. Someone who is 18 is an adult legally speaking so why is there another rating? Just seems like a lot of BS if you asked me, like I stated earlier.
Alex
Btw games do influence us. It has been proven time and time again with all other media. But that wasnt up for discussion. I just found it funny that the games can be violent and still make it into peoples hands even with people protesting, but if sex enters the equation... You have a politician going "OH MY GOD! YOU SICK PUPPIES!"
So to bring around its like telling us its ok to have pleasure from death, but not from two (or more) people enjoying themselves together in the process of precreation (if a child is the end result or not).
..last post.. Im sure Gauss is pissed that this went on after he asked it not to continue.
Like you guys have said what the hell would a 12 year old be doing with the game anyhow unless the parents/older siblings bought it and they played it.
Sage: But that's not what the constitution says. The US constitution grants the "right to free speech", not "the right to free speech as long as someone thinks of the children". That's one of the big differences between the US and Germany.
in this case i think it is irrelevant, it's a mod, not the game with the content in question. even if it was in the game to begin with it's not accessable off the shelf or by any official plugin.
the sims had a nude patch put out for it - they didn't worry about that!
Here's a statement from the mod creators website:
[ QUOTE ]
After reading various discussion about this mod around the internet, I would like to make the following statement:
All the contents of this mod was already available on the original disks. Therefor the scriptcode, the models, the animations and the dialogs by the original voice-actors were all created by RockStar. The only thing I had to do to enable the mini-games was toggling a single bit in the main.scm file. The Nude models that are used as a bonus in the Quick action version of the mod, were also already present on the original disk.
[/ QUOTE ]
My thoughts are, if it was included in the game CD, then it's in the game and the developers responsibility. They didn't attempt to remove or replace the nude model textures or voice audio. I'm sure doing so would not affect the code or stability of the game. Therefore, I don't believe they "wisely" removed anything. It appears they left EVERYTHING for someone to discover after it's release, and cause more controversy, and of course boost sales. So that's my counterpoint to the "it's just a mod" debate. There are a lot of talented little coders in the game community that will find these treasures over time.
There's a big button when little 15-year-old Johnny starts the game saying "SKIP DIRECTLY TO HARDCORE PIXEL PORN"...
No! How evil! Rockstar perverting our children who shouldn't be playing the game anyway!
If parents are letting their kids download and install mods to re-implement the removed code, then that's their dumb fault for not paying attention, and for buying their kids the game in the first place.
It is NOT in the game by standard, it HAS to be activated with knowledge and understanding, so it should have no legal grounds.
Sure, you can bitch all week about how Rockstar were un-ethical or whatever for actually having the models/animations and theory present, but at the end of the day, all of that stuff is NOT ACCESSIBLE from the game, unless the user knowingly and willingly installs an unofficial, unsupported, third-party modification.
For all I know there are some secret animations in the Quake3 PAK0.PK3, saved under an innocuous filename, where Sarge does Mynx in the ass for 2 hours. Just nobody released a mod to activate it... BUT IT'S STILL THERE, CORRUPTING OUR CHILDREN!!!
lol someone is prepping to run for president,but i guess a clinton would be the most appropriate person to speak ou about sexually explicit material.
political points. In reality, she doesnt give
a shit, nor have a clue what shes talking about.
This is getting sillier by the day.
She’s just going after an easy issue to get some
political points. In reality, she doesn’t give
a shit, nor have a clue what she’s talking about.
This is getting sillier by the day.
[/ QUOTE ]
hehe thats what politicians do
lol someone is prepping to run for president,but i guess a clinton would be the most appropriate person to speak ou about sexually explicit material.
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Quoted for agreement, this is mind blowing
Oh! the irony
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Yet the opposite, the process of creating life, and human intimacy.
OMG YOU SICKOS!
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That would be a great arguement. But, when I think of the miracle of creating life, and human intimacy...
http://www.elysiumvisions.com/images/GTAsucks.jpg
...this is not the first image that comes to mind. If it's your's, I suggest you delete all those gigs of porn, wash your hands, and get a girlfriend.
The nature in which it is acted out is pornography. Any other part of this discussion isn't worth debating anymore. Everything is just fine, until it's too fucked up we don't know where we went wrong. And then politics, and death, and the screaming.
And yes there is plenty wrong with the violence in these games, but that is a separate and tired discussion. I never look at a games rating, and most parents probably don't either.
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I hate to break it to you buddy, but youre the exception, not the other way around.
Most people who are in a good intimate relationship (unless theyve been married for like 30 years) go at it whenever, wherever, and however is most convenient. If that happens to be in a jail cell after the two of you got arrested for indecent exposure then so be it.
Chances are you were conceived after a good romp so I wouldnt be sticking up your nose at anyone else.
Personally I have to wonder if the ignorance stance taken by North America is the best way to go about protecting our kids. It just doesnt seem to be working. Maybe if kids were given the whole truth they wouldnt have to be in such a hurry to see what its like for themselves.
Theyd know and could decide yes Im ready/interested or no Im not ready/not interested.
We need to stop patronizing kids too - I think its better to trust in them, then to say theyre not mature enough to make the decision. Wake up. They are going to make the decision because its their decision to make. All we can do is give them the facts, bring them up with good values and hope when the time comes they make the right choice for them.
That may be a little off topic but I still think it's relevant since this is all about "protecting the children".
If kids were properly educated then something like this wouldn't need to be an issue, and from a kid's point of view I don't think it's an issue at all.
I hate to break it to you buddy, but youre the exception, not the other way around.
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could you be more specific?
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Chances are you were conceived after a good romp so I wouldnt be sticking up your nose at anyone else.
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I can honestly say it's not a great feeling being told you were an accident. And after 22 years, your parents still act as if you were never born while you try to build a life for yourself. I don't wish that on anyone, so I won't make the same mistake they did.
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Maybe if kids were given the whole truth they wouldnt have to be in such a hurry to see what its like for themselves.
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I agree with your there.
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If kids were properly educated then something like this wouldn't need to be an issue, and from a kid's point of view I don't think it's an issue at all.
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We can start by educating them in the difference between "intimacy" and "carnal lust". Because it appears that you and so many others easily confuse them. And the latter seems to be the only one portrayed in this "mod". It's difficult to find meaning to your life when the method in which you were created was also meaningless.
I'm glad people like Hillary are stepping in. If anything, to bring the issue to the attention of all parents so they can do their job more effectively.
You're right, the sexual repression is a grave mistake in the western world. When noone teaches these children how it works they have to find it out themselves or deduce it from what's available to them (porn). Taking away the porn won't do much, a vagina doesn't come with a manual saying "remember to take the pill every single day" and a penis doesn't have "use only with condom" printed on its side*. Of course sexual education doesn't fly with the fundamentalist religious nutcases who think that telling their children not to fuck before marriage is going to help. Children are rebels, our cultures glorify rebellion and "being not mainstream", no wonder they'll be even more intent on fucking someone when their parents tell them not to, just as they're more likely to open daddy's secret drawer when they're repeatedly told not to.
Though telling people only "don't do this" without giving a reason never worked, that's portrayed as despotism. Always give a reason if you want a rule to be taken seriously, stuff like "don't be bad" is useless, stuff like "don't be bad, else Santa won't bring presents" works much better as long as the child believes the justification is valid. Hell, even emperors gave reasons for why THEY should rule and noone else (usually "God gave me the right!").
*= I'm actually surprised no American tried to sue God for this oversight.
If the mod guys did actually decompile code in order to create the minigame, then they are responsible and in violation of the EULA. Shame on Rockstar for including the content in the game (they couldn't take time to recompile a few assets?), but...
What we have on our hands here is the type of temporary moral outrage that Bruce Sterling describes in 'Tomorrow Now'. Somebody is caught publicly doing something that everyone basically does on the sly. But they have to get in trouble for it, because everyone else feels the need to assert that they weren't doing it. So in order to celebrate their not-me-ness, there's Senate speeches, and maybe a Federal investigation and perhaps somebody might do six months, like Martha Stewart. And then... after the news people are tired of it... people go back to EXACTLY WHAT THEY WERE DOING BEFORE. The end result is, nothing changes.
So just cool your heels and wait.
I'm on Rockstar's (presumed) side: the world isn't ready for mass-market interactive porn. Even if it's only Showtime After Hours level porn.
/jzero
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/15/senate.videogame.reut/index.html
jzero: I've heard claims of getting it to work by altering one byte in an XBox savegame and the hackers themselves say they didn't do much to create the hack, I have a feeling that's just Rockstar throwing some lies around to cover their tracks.
What they are portraying may not be romantic but its sure as hell intimate, and romance is not a necessity, or an indication of responsibility. Hell Im sure most womanizers out there are romantics.
I can also say with conviction that if I were to have a child because of a lustful encounter I would be no less of a parent then if I had planned it. Lust and responsibility are not mutually exclusive terms in most people.
Like most politicians Hillary puts her nose where it doesnt belong - thats why shes a politician. If she really wanted to help shed push for better sex education and support for kids in general, but then shed alienate all those conservative voters because sex is a taboo subject.
I think its fairly obvious this is a move on her part to appeal to the conservatives of America. Its transparent, but its safe because most likely nothing will come of it either way, and no one can call her on it without looking bad.
Got to love democracy.
Unfortunately Im going to make the somewhat broad statement that parents are either responsible or theyre not. If theyre not nothing is going to change that, because they obviously don't care.
I'm voting for RockStar.
jzero: I've heard claims of getting it to work by altering one byte in an XBox savegame and the hackers themselves say they didn't do much to create the hack, I have a feeling that's just Rockstar throwing some lies around to cover their tracks.
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I'll bet that the 'single byte shift' story has about as much credence as the 'decompiled code' story, and both are certainly CYA statements (Cover Your Ass).
/jzero
jzero: The hacker claimed in the readme that it was just a minor modification to unlock existing code, he probably didn't know how much media attention it'll gather at that point, especially considering the sheer volume of "AO" content produced by modders on the net that never gets attention.
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"If, in fact, as Rockstar claims, these sexually explicit minigames were never in their games whatsoever, then I would assume that these hackers have violated the copyright of Rockstar games, of Grand Theft Auto, and that Rockstar should, in fact, take every action that they can to sue every single penny of those individuals who would violate their copyright," Yee said. "I haven't seen any of that at all, and that's why I'm suspicious of Rockstar's position of innocence."
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In related news I don't know how she did it but my Niece and her friend say they were able to get Hot Coffee to show up on the PS2 version!! I have yet to confirm this but she is not one to normally lie about this trpe of thing....they are both 16 BTW
^that was my retard impression. how was it?
Rockstar proven wrong.
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That still dosen't seem to hold much water to me. All it proves is that the old code for the minigame is there, no if it can be access from in the game.
It's really simple to have say a boolean varible that they were using to toggle "questionable" material. While the console cheat device may not be able to modify the data directly on the drive it can still modify that data stored on the heap, stack, etc. They may even be able to re-write code loaded into memory and point it to another address, although I'm not familiar enough with the cheat device to know if this is true.
The AR can alter the memory as the user sees fit, it's often used to unlock disabled code segments.
the ESRB has an AO rating (adult only) which is the equivilant of R/NC-17.
developers and publishers do not want to have their game with this rating due to a large hit in sales (WAL*MART will not sale adult only games)
problem with this scenario is, the game was rated and on shelves without this hidden content taken into account. if rockstar did this for a publicity stunt, they should be punished for their childishness. after some silence, their official statement however states the content was hidden in their game by hackers..
i wonder how they're going to go about retracting their "it's all a hacker's fault" statement, since it's in the ps2 version, also.
Hell N-vidia's "signature" tech demos for their cards, (nalue and dawn specifically) have included nudity, but unless you know what to look for, and how to alter the demo it would never show up. UT2004 has a toilet on wheels for a test vehicle, that there is no code for.
The point is that blaming rockstar for this is like blaming winchester for the Kennedy assasination.
Their statement doesn't really say the "hackers" added that, they just say it was hard to unlock. But it's worded the yellow press way, i.e. when you read it you THINK they said the patch added it.
UT2004 has a toilet on wheels for a test vehicle, that there is no code for.
Not true, if you finish the singleplayer campaign as Mr. Crow the TC-1200 gets unlocked in Vehicle Arena. The easier way is to simply use a third party mutator that displays all vehicles (you need that for user-made vehicles anyway) or spawn "ONSFull.GenericSD" (or something like that).
Justin: Neither MPAA nor ESRB ratings are legally binding, the MPAA just enforces them itself. While some of the larger stores will card you many smaller ones, especially those without ethics (e.g. EBGames) won't and it takes just one that's not playing by the rules to get the game into kid's hands. Crooks like EBGames consider that if they're the only ones to sell M and AO rated games to minors they get more business than the other stores.
Though for some reason parents still ignore the ratings when buying games for their kids, apparently believing that all games are for kids and can't contain anything objectionable. You know, kinda like how they believe all cartoons are for kids until they accidentally rent a hentai movie for their 7 year old. That's where carding always fails, a kid with ignorant parents can just bring one of them along to buy Manhunt for them.