as for 90% of the people here being pissed off.. this is a community of artists, and many seem to be less than well off. the politically right hasnt really supported the arts for many many years. so it's going to be hard times for most of us trying to work as artists.
and those IQ statistics (if accurate) are fuckin scary. for reference 75 is "officially" mentally retarded.
o.O
Greetings fellow members.
I wanted to post how I felt and how weird election day ended up for me, what I wished we'd had in choices of Candidates and so forth, but after sitting in the bleachers all day here, I will pass. What I said in this succinct post, will suffice to at least get me in here before lock down.
Oh well...too bad Kerry didn't win, but like the bumper sticker says: "Bush/Cheney '04 - Because you just cant change horsemen in the middle of the apocalypse"....
That's a curious nption, though. Why should the government support "the arts"? Doesn't compromising to get a government grant, also mean compromising on'es own artistic vision? Doesnt' government support maintain the separation of "the arts' from the mainstream community?
As to this place. Well it used to be a site full of gamers, with artistic talent, Now it seems to be more about artists who game?
Daz: *Ahem....I didn't vote for Bush.
After my research I was still left with the same impression I was when I began my reading.
The whole issue with the war is another story, and another lengthy conversation.
This election was like a decision between having somebody shit or piss in my mouth. Pro's and cons to either, and I get to pick which, but both are pretty foul so I just said "Hey! Surprise me, I'm certain I'll have issues with either result, and don't feel strongly positive about either option to actively CHOOSE that one."
My non-vote was hardly due to apathy, or lack of effort. I made a decision not to choose. Like that Rush song "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice"
Dukester, Scott, and Mojo are classy as ever and I want to apologize if I come off as a fanatical finger pointer. I'm upset because what I was hoping didn't happen and I'm not optimistic about the next four years but that doesn't change how I feel about anyone here. Everyone has the right to their politics.
scott: soon as you place it there yourself. look into your account options. you'll find the option to post it in there. if you need it hosted, let me know.
Snemmy: really? Im not convinced of any correlation at all on this board between the Bush dislikers and their incomes. Actually I think for the most part games artists make pretty resonable salaries. Generally it might be that artistic types tend to be a little more sensitive. But I really dont know why the views on this board dont seem to represent the apparent 50/50 ( ish ) split of the nation on politics.
[ QUOTE ]
I can think of 3 reasons that Hillary will not be elected in 2008.
1) McCain
2) Gulianni
3) Scwarzenegger(don't think it can't happen, there are already forces at work to amend the consitution to allow him to run).
I can also think of alot of other reasons Hillary won't get elected.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here's one: Do we really want Bill Clinton to have access to White House interns again? But then again in retrospect, White House BJs being the biggest and hottest issue is a pretty tame drama compared to current events.
[quote}
Here's one: Do we really want Bill Clinton to have access to White House interns again
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh heh
Really, I was thinking about this earlier today. This is the seventh Presidential Election that I've voted in! Not only did it make me feel old, but it also made me think about my own personal losses in this arena. Both of them! Ha ha! Sorry
It is a feeling of hopelesness, but it soon does pass. That is the key to the thing. Knowing you got another shot down the road. Sure, your gonna have to put up with some shit that you think is stupid, but basically your gonna still live your life as always with just a little more griping involved.
On this message board most of the downtrodden losers can commisrate together because you definately are the majority, but there are still toes to be stepped on. Step all over mine, or Scott's, we expect it. I understand someone like Daz and his opinion so I just read it and move on. Sett's opinion I blow off because I don't know if he is 13 or 33. But it seems to me that most of you like minded thinkers are beating yourselves up instead of us..unnecessarily! Perhaps you guys can forgive and forget because of the passion of the moment and then move on, but it seems like you shouldn't have to. I have been purposely semi-trolling all day and haven't even received a snag while you guys are ripping each others heads off!
To tell you the truth, while I did vote for Bush and I am relieved (more than really happy) he won, my biggest wish was that no matter who one, it would be settled and not become the big clusterfuck it was 4 years ago. On that account I am satisfied
So argue all you want, but leave out the "fuck you's" and the "you suck" and most importantly leave out the spurr of the moment "I want to leave the country" comments. Unlike what somebody said earlier, I do believe those are knee jerk reactions, not sincere promises.
As an outsider here, I've been surprised at just how much Americans like to talk politics much more than anywhere else I have been. I'm not sure, but it seems to me like America is the one place that I've been that still assumes that having a different monkey on the hotseat each time around will make things 'different'.
You mostly seem to take it very personally, as if a vote against your choice is damning of your whole life and ideology and you must foreswear the company of whomever doesn't agree with you.
I don't really 'get' that side of Americans.
I can work out why you still believe in your leaders and expect that they are going to improve your life. That pursuit of happiness is in your constitution and when the standard of living here is so much higher than Britain or Europe it's easy to think you are owed.
Or at least that's my outsider's worldview of the states so far.
I just can't understand why you take it so personally to know other people have different opinions about the person best suited to run the country. I've seen about 20 different flavours of coke in the fridge at work, if we can't agree on something as simple as our drinks flavour, why do you expect to agree on something of a much grander scale?
Or is it just George C Scott in Patton 'Losing is Hateful to an American' ?
I hear you ror, people get all upset with me when i said i would rather bush stayed in office, i mean it came to a point where they started to insult me and call me pterodactyl feet for no good reason.
My earlier "FU" statement was only directed at one person. While I don't know that person and have no right to use such language, I was offended and upset. I'm calm now. Many voters made their decisions based on the facts and research. My post was to explain that I made my decision based on actual experiences that have happened to me and my family due to the current administration, plus the facts. I'm not influence by propaganda. When Kerry once shouted "Help is on the way!", I thought, "it's about damn time".
If you voted for Bush, more power to you. I will assume you had good reason, and that is respectable. I know there are some vastly intelligent individuals on this forum. The rest of us will suck it up and deal with it. If I'm still alive in 4 years, I'll look back and laugh.
In class today, everyone had voted for Kerry except one. After giving all our reasons for voting Kerry, we asked her why she voted Bush. Her response was, "duh...I dunno". I assume the entire state of Mississippi is giving the same reply. It's comforting to realize that the future of your nation is decided by "duh...i dunno". The rest of the class session was kinda depressing.
Valid point Ror but I think it's also fair to say more than any other in a long long time that this was a hugely important election. In the context of this election, I actually believe as Im sure many folks on this board do ( and many of my friends in the bay area ) that a different 'monkey on the hotseat' would have made a difference. Not so much about how America is run perhaps. But in it's foreign policy abso-bloody-lutely. Bush has an agenda, and it's pretty fucking frightening. War with Iran is just the start. These are global issues, not just American.
The scary thing is that I really believe that the anti-Bush sentiment around the world, will start to gradually transform into anti-Americanism, since its far easier now to relate the Bush regime to Americans.
I find it very very interesting to look at an electoral map from yesterday. It's pretty generally all the culturally elite 'cool' cities versus gun totin' gay hating abortion banning bibleville. Scary.
you guys are absolutely right!! from now own you should have at least a bachelors degree in order to be able to vote!
voting works so american citezens get to have a say. not just the citizens you deem worthy
i keep hearing this retarded stereotypicaly dividing the voters into 2 classes which are usualy something along the lines of "smart ones, and fag bashing gun toting ones"
its nice to split it up like that so people can pretend that even tho it was a fair election, that in someways it still was not fair because there was too many dumb sheep led to the booths,
Its over, the majority ruled. crying about it will not help, and the fighting and name calling will only serve to seperate us even more. Grind you ever consider the girl did not want to tell you all why she voted how she did because you all would have jumped down her throat just like its happening to certain people in here.
I personaly think bush has made some mistakes. i also think he has done soemthings right. who can say how any other president would have happened during these same situations. Its been a really tough time for us as a nation, and i'm sure it hasnt been a picnic for bush either. i was looking thru snopes.com and 90% of all the anti bush junk on their has all been fakes or either blown out of proportion, just like the bush flipping a berd video going around now giving the illusion that it had soemthign to do with this ellection, he was goofing off years ago when he was govenor an flipped a bird at one of his people. big frickin deal.
I think the attack on afganistan was waranted, but i do wish we would not have stopped before hunting down osama.
I think that going after sadam was a good thing to do even tho i think it was a major mistake to try and link it to the 9-11 atacks, and i think that a lot of it was sloppier than needed.. even tho that may not be directly bushs' fault.. i feel bad for the innocents that we caused injury and deat thoo in the attack, i feel sorrow for the innocents that died under sadams rule before we caught him. i feel even worse knowing that ultimatly it will be for no good because whoever takes charge will be just as bad.
I think a lot of you have it in your head that as soon as kerry was elected the war would stop, the economy would heal rainbows would spring up into the sky and all would be good in the world. and trust me if i ever saw a candidate who i thought could make that much of a diference i would cut my self in half jsut so i could cast 2 votes for him/her. kerry was little more than a figurehead that only had one thing going for him , "he was not bush" the democrats really need to find a candidate that people can back for who he is and what they believe he can do.
maybe in 08 pick ventura he's mentioned running in 08
Everything is scary when you look too closely at it.
Most things are easier when you don't look too deeply into into it.
Americans right now, just seem to me to be more concerned with having a leader who is willing to fight first than make apologies for the past.
There's the same north vs south (I'm not talking about geography) divide in every country, I think with America having felt more untouchable thanks to the Atlantic (in general, I'm not forgetting about Pearl Harbour and previous terrorist attacks) and recently having that feeling shaken out of them they can't help but focus more on external safety and that's what Bush has always pushed.
Whether Bush and Co did or did not cultivate this vulnerability is beside the point. I think a lot of people vote for the one the feel is most likely to take care of their most immediate problem and everything else gets put on hold until that is sorted out.
Of course, thats why other countries are worrying about how much it might take before Americans feel safe again, how much will be enough. I haven't met many people who want to continually police the world, I think they all want to just quieten the terrorist fear they are all touched by and move on.
I know you don't like my what you consider as my tendency to live in the past Daz, but we've lived with a lot of years of terrorism in the news in Britain, I don't think we can do anything other than empathize about how it must shock a country to suddenly learn what that is like.
As , like yourself, I live here now ( and near the heart of Bibleville) I've tried to listen to the local viewpoint and make peace with it as much as I can.
While it looks to me like people are being mislead and that Bush is probably the most insulting excuse for a puppet possible, there's never going to be anyone there to say I'm right and what good would it do me if there were.
I don't think a war against a concept can be won but maybe it can be.
I thought a hopeful point was brought up about all our young competition in the industry being drafted though!
[ QUOTE ]
Well apologies for making that assumption Scooby.
Snemmy: really? Im not convinced of any correlation at all on this board between the Bush dislikers and their incomes. Actually I think for the most part games artists make pretty resonable salaries. Generally it might be that artistic types tend to be a little more sensitive. But I really dont know why the views on this board dont seem to represent the apparent 50/50 ( ish ) split of the nation on politics.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's somewhat true that more of the artists tend to be more liberal while more of the conservatives either don't use computers, are too poor to afford them, or stay away from anything too artsy or "different".
Of course these are just sweeping generalizations, but I've noticed that they tend to be somewhat true.
I like the bachelors degree voting thing yeah! Good idea.
"i keep hearing this retarded stereotypicaly dividing the voters into 2 classes which are usualy something along the lines of "smart ones, and fag bashing gun toting ones"
hehe well it would be naiive to deny the link! Most people seem to have voted from a moral perspective. Plus, like Ror said, the things that immediately affect them. Like owning guns for instance. I disagree Mojo 100% that anyone was under the misguided notion that Kerry getting in meant instant end to war in Iraq, but it sure as hell would have meant not starting any new ones.
As a foreigner here, It actually pains me to see the foreign opinion of Americans generally decline. I find more and more people back home question me on why the hell I live here 'amongst them'. I find myself constantly 'defending' them and their actions. But that'll get much harder now. Selfish way of thinking I know There was a stereotype American that I was wary of before moving here, but I have largely not really met him yet. Perhaps that really is because of where I am. It's just aswell I'm in San Francisco, since the list of other places Id want to live in in this country gets smaller all the time. Oh well, theres always that quaint little wet island.
One thing i dont get is why so many americans "marry" with one party and then vote for it for the rest of their lives?
I think it would me more appropriate to vote for the candidate who is more suitable for the current situation.
But then again im from a country which has like 1 party for every 100k people and we cant vote president which doesnt mater because he has no real power anyways :P
I think it was stated that there were more people divided between the parties this election than ever. We do vote more for the candidate than the party than we used to. Oh, I also agree about the power....it's way more than just Dubya making things happen out there for sure!
[ QUOTE ]
that having a different monkey on the hotseat each time around will make things 'different'.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly out of this reason I originally intended to stay out of this discussion (other than that joke pic I posted earlier).
My oppinion of this is that it is probably good that Bush won (read on!), simply because it might result in a real opposition in the US, not like the Democrats that are basicly "Bush, but nicer".
If Kerry would have won there would be likely the situation we have in Germany right now; A social democrat gouvernment that basicly is not social at all, but hides that AND is playing the "lesser evil game" by saying "be happy that we are in power, because the conservatives would be even worse".
But as you might have guessed by now, I am maybe just projecting my hopes and believes onto the USA.
On an interesting sidenote, I really agree with Rorshach, even though I thought he is a "backwardish nationalist" after reading his posts in the James Bond thread Congratulations all my respect for you is restored
That place had some pretty nice facts (note- facts.. they had links to official sites with hardcore facts)
What bothers me about this, is that every "why did Bush win/Kerry lose" site, most of the bush supporters actually supported him because he "stayed by his statements".. xP
[ QUOTE ]
I've got two degrees, so that naturally means my vote counts twice!
[/ QUOTE ]
Not in Ohio it won't. Once is difficult as is. Muwahahaha! I actually had to get in line twice when I voted because I forgot to sign something. Some of the other voters started freaking out.
I can ask without offending those I'm asking...let's give it a try:
Why do Republican voters who are worried about national security vote in an administration who makes international enemies?
-- "But Ross the election was about moral values"
When does the body count of dead Iraqi civilians register as morally unacceptable?
100,000 dead, almost 27 times that of the victims of sept 11th (3,711)
--
Isn't it aparent by now you can't wage war against small, decentralized terrorist cells?
Five hijackers aboard the flight led by Mohamed Atta. If all it takes is five, and...
These aren't abstract concepts:
-They aren't afraid of dieing
-They have no safe place they call home
-They are motivated by faith
Many morally conscious voters probably understand the unparalleled motivating power of faith.
One nation can invade and squash millions of enemies...you can always miss five.
I don't doubt Mojo, Scott or Duke's intelligence one bit. But isn't this stuff undebatable and self evident?
I'm genuinely confused and even a little shocked
....and a lil' hungry, so I have to stop editing this.
The real reason Bush won? Because the democrats have allowed whiny liberal Hollywood to become their voice, which postivively ELIMATES right leaning moderates from ever voting for a democratic candidate.
The country is not nearly as divided as the far left wants you to believe right now. MOST of the country is still moderate.
[ QUOTE ]
The real reason Bush won? Because the democrats have allowed whiny liberal Hollywood to become their voice, which postivively ELIMATES right leaning moderates from ever voting for a democratic candidate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow! That's EXACTLY what the Fox "News" channel says!
John, this is what many people say if you lean slightly to the Reb., they all say, oh so you seen that on O'Reilly or your watching too much Fox news.
People feel better to label other people, it helps to file you away in their memory banks and allocate a geographic area in their mind for you. * I do the same thing. * The problem is when someone is static, or changes alot, it messes up the pre-concluded assumptions and thows them out of wack.
Like old Dukester will surprise me now or then or Milla with post something I'd never have guessed.
I agree with Ror that American's seem to take who wins and who looses, and polotics in general, far more seriously than almost anywhere else in the world.
This would explain why 99% of the political threads on these boards are about American politics, even though the number of American polycounters is far lower than 99%.
Was I pissed that Bush got voted back in? Yeah, a bit, I can't vote but I can still root for who I want to unofficially. But it's over, it's done, he's there for another 4 years and we just have to get on with life and put up with it. The ways these things go, no matter who's in the hot seat most people, including those that voted for them, will moan about a huge amount of choices they make, and say how great it was under the last leader. That's the way of the world.
I can't hold it against the Americans for voting him in again either really, hell, we had Thatcher for, possibly the most reviled Prime Minister in the last 100 years, and the country took a long arsed time to recover from some of the things she did, but she kept getting voted in every damn election. She'd probably still be there if she hadn't quit
As for the Terrorism thing, where everyone's running around wondering when the next attack is going to happen, well, I'm a Brit, I've had more bomb scares than most americans have had hot dinners, my mothers boyfriend missed being blown up by six minutes one morning (He had a nice view into his office from the street when he got there, since the wall had collapsed). So I have trouble getting used to how much it bothers people since the British way of dealing with it is to just get on with things. If it happens it happens, I'm still more likely to get hit by a car or contract cancer.
Hmmm... I had a point, but I've rambled so much I forgot what it was. Oh well, back to work!
Or would it be: "the struggle against ideological extremists who do not believe in free societies and who happen to use nuisancism as a weapon to try to shake the conscience of the free world."
Thanks for your thoughts Harl, it is good to hear them. Us Americans really have no idea how much terror you wonderful United Kingdom/British/English/Welsh/Irish have experienced.
This whole string makes me so depressed, reading it over and over, I seem stuck so to speak. It is almost like a death. You know Kerry was a pretty poor Democratic choice, what I dont get about you guys is this anybody but Bush thing was going around. But in some of our minds it was anybody but Kerry. I wish everyone would stop the name calling and the assumptions because anyone who voted for Bush wants to haul guns around in the back window of their pickup and drink beer, hates gays, wants to blow up abortion clinics and approves of the death or Iraqi victums & loves war.. Are you all so narrow minded you believe this? I was actually kinda hoping Bush lost just so the next four years here would be uncluttered by political threads but it is not going to be that way.
[ QUOTE ]
I wish everyone would stop the name calling and the assumptions because anyone who voted for Bush wants to haul guns around in the back window of their pickup and drink beer, hates gays, wants to blow up abortion clinics and approves of the death or Iraqi victums & loves war.. Are you all so narrow minded you believe this?
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe this. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some trees here that need hugging.
More seriously, I have decided that the great flaw in modern American democracy is that there's no way to force Colin Powell and John McCain to run together in 2008. Alas.
Youre missing the point frosty. Whilst its all too easy to poke fun and tout Bush supporters as gun toting yokels ( and equally easy to label anti-Bush people as tree hugging liberals ) , most of the people I know that didnt want Bush in power are objecting to his foreign policy. His continuation of leading the US down a road of being globally despised. The regime have an agenda, and part of that is to force democracy on the world. Thats going to mean more war. If you're up for that then theres no problem is there?
Talking of the Scottish ( without smilies ) , three killed today thanks to the obviosuly politically motivated request of the US to have British troops move closer to the heart of the chaos:
Frosty: yes , you're also missing the point in regards my point about terrorism being more common in the UK, though I expect the tone of some of the posts previous to mine would color your reading of it.
It was not my inference that Brits are made of sterner stuff, it was my intent to point out that terrorism is so familiar, that the press and people in general are not so alarmist about it anymore as the decades previous, proved that you can't really beat terrorism by brute strength.
I think in Britain terrorism is looked upon more like 2 old men that are arguing over some old flame, neither of them can remember the full bones of the disagreement and nor does anyone else. We wish they would stop arguing, but we are adult enough to realise that theres nothing we can really say to resolve their differences and stop them arguing, if we could, or they find peace for a while, its inevitable that something else will spur them on again later.
If you can equate how commonplace my described story is to how such stories only become familiar once you have heard them enough, then you might begin to understand the way in which terrorism has become entangled within the British way of life.
We say 'bloody terrorists are at it again' and sigh in the same way you might say ' bloody kids are playing their damn rap music till all hours again'.
It's not that we think it is a smaller problem than you either, its just become less of a focus because it's been commonplace for so long.
That is not to say that the Irish situation is a small thing, it most certainly is not.
Nor am I stating that the fear of being bombed does not scare us, or that we do not feel the loss of those that have died in the struggle.
Interesting joolz. I shall have a full read later. Meantime I should do *some* work today! In the time you posted that, I just happened to be making this jpeg. Whatever you make of it, you cant deny its really interesting to see the relationship between populous density and politics:
As for me being political sheep, you couldnt be farther from the mark PAL. Its fairly well proven scientifically and historically that the Democratic party is elected by those segments of the populace with the lowest incomes, education, and understanding of the political machine. So that makes you the sheep. Line up so I can shear your hairy ass.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey I was wondering, could you back up the statement that this is "well proven scientifically and historically" with some attributable facts? Here are some facts from the 2000 US Census, from this page about educational census results:
From looking at this you will see that the ten most educated states/districts, as expressed by the percentage of adults with a bachelor's degree or greater, are D.C. (50.6%), Massachusetts (41.4%), Connecticut (35.3%), Colorado (34.8%), New Jersey (34.7%), Minnesota (34.5%), Maryland (34.2%), New York (33.3%), Virginia (33.1%), and Illinois (32.3%). Of these top ten educated states, eight voted democratic this year.
Now for the least educated states: Nevada (17.3%), West Virginia (17.6%), Mississippi (18.3%), Arkansas (18.8%), New Mexico (20.1%), Kentucky (20.8%), Louisiana (21.0%), Alaska (21.3%), Oklahoma (21.6%), and Alabama (21.8%). Of these ten least educated states, all ten went for Bush.
If you look at the financial data from the census website they generally follow this same pattern, with higher-educated states having higher median and per capita incomes, the one notable exception I noticed being Alaska.
So what is the scientific data backing up the claim that uneducated, poor people vote Democratic?
DaZ - that kind of look at the voting break down is much more clear when you look at the results within a state, on a county by county basis. On almost every state, it will show the entire state being red, with several small blue counties where the more urban areas are.
For an example, check out this map of Illinois, which went for Kerry:
ndcv- yeah, that claim was pretty ludicrous. Thanks for the research.
Daz- the urban/rural (or metro/retro) divide is even sharper when you look at the county results. I'm having trouble finding one for this election, but I remember the 2000 county map was divided as such. This just blows my mind. I love this quote, taken from that site I posted above; ...David Brooks described this schism in more acerbic tones in the Atlantic Monthly in 2001: "In Red America churches are everywhere. In Blue America Thai restaurants are everywhere."
Daz, here are the county breakdowns. Other than along the Rio Grande in South Texas, the counties with the blue counties probably contain large metropolitan areas and suburbs. and the red counties containing smaller towns and/or exurbs and farms.
That is pretty fascinating thanks. So, Thai restaurants aside, what is the correlation between peoples political persuasion and density of population?! It cant all be about gun laws surely? God? Is it really that simple?
Replies
as for 90% of the people here being pissed off.. this is a community of artists, and many seem to be less than well off. the politically right hasnt really supported the arts for many many years. so it's going to be hard times for most of us trying to work as artists.
and those IQ statistics (if accurate) are fuckin scary. for reference 75 is "officially" mentally retarded.
o.O
I wanted to post how I felt and how weird election day ended up for me, what I wished we'd had in choices of Candidates and so forth, but after sitting in the bleachers all day here, I will pass. What I said in this succinct post, will suffice to at least get me in here before lock down.
As to this place. Well it used to be a site full of gamers, with artistic talent, Now it seems to be more about artists who game?
Scott
After my research I was still left with the same impression I was when I began my reading.
The whole issue with the war is another story, and another lengthy conversation.
This election was like a decision between having somebody shit or piss in my mouth. Pro's and cons to either, and I get to pick which, but both are pretty foul so I just said "Hey! Surprise me, I'm certain I'll have issues with either result, and don't feel strongly positive about either option to actively CHOOSE that one."
My non-vote was hardly due to apathy, or lack of effort. I made a decision not to choose. Like that Rush song "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice"
Snemmy: really? Im not convinced of any correlation at all on this board between the Bush dislikers and their incomes. Actually I think for the most part games artists make pretty resonable salaries. Generally it might be that artistic types tend to be a little more sensitive. But I really dont know why the views on this board dont seem to represent the apparent 50/50 ( ish ) split of the nation on politics.
I can think of 3 reasons that Hillary will not be elected in 2008.
1) McCain
2) Gulianni
3) Scwarzenegger(don't think it can't happen, there are already forces at work to amend the consitution to allow him to run).
I can also think of alot of other reasons Hillary won't get elected.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here's one: Do we really want Bill Clinton to have access to White House interns again? But then again in retrospect, White House BJs being the biggest and hottest issue is a pretty tame drama compared to current events.
Here's one: Do we really want Bill Clinton to have access to White House interns again
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh heh
Really, I was thinking about this earlier today. This is the seventh Presidential Election that I've voted in! Not only did it make me feel old, but it also made me think about my own personal losses in this arena. Both of them! Ha ha! Sorry
It is a feeling of hopelesness, but it soon does pass. That is the key to the thing. Knowing you got another shot down the road. Sure, your gonna have to put up with some shit that you think is stupid, but basically your gonna still live your life as always with just a little more griping involved.
On this message board most of the downtrodden losers can commisrate together because you definately are the majority, but there are still toes to be stepped on. Step all over mine, or Scott's, we expect it. I understand someone like Daz and his opinion so I just read it and move on. Sett's opinion I blow off because I don't know if he is 13 or 33. But it seems to me that most of you like minded thinkers are beating yourselves up instead of us..unnecessarily! Perhaps you guys can forgive and forget because of the passion of the moment and then move on, but it seems like you shouldn't have to. I have been purposely semi-trolling all day and haven't even received a snag while you guys are ripping each others heads off!
To tell you the truth, while I did vote for Bush and I am relieved (more than really happy) he won, my biggest wish was that no matter who one, it would be settled and not become the big clusterfuck it was 4 years ago. On that account I am satisfied
So argue all you want, but leave out the "fuck you's" and the "you suck" and most importantly leave out the spurr of the moment "I want to leave the country" comments. Unlike what somebody said earlier, I do believe those are knee jerk reactions, not sincere promises.
Anyway, quake 2 time
You mostly seem to take it very personally, as if a vote against your choice is damning of your whole life and ideology and you must foreswear the company of whomever doesn't agree with you.
I don't really 'get' that side of Americans.
I can work out why you still believe in your leaders and expect that they are going to improve your life. That pursuit of happiness is in your constitution and when the standard of living here is so much higher than Britain or Europe it's easy to think you are owed.
Or at least that's my outsider's worldview of the states so far.
I just can't understand why you take it so personally to know other people have different opinions about the person best suited to run the country. I've seen about 20 different flavours of coke in the fridge at work, if we can't agree on something as simple as our drinks flavour, why do you expect to agree on something of a much grander scale?
Or is it just George C Scott in Patton 'Losing is Hateful to an American' ?
If you voted for Bush, more power to you. I will assume you had good reason, and that is respectable. I know there are some vastly intelligent individuals on this forum. The rest of us will suck it up and deal with it. If I'm still alive in 4 years, I'll look back and laugh.
In class today, everyone had voted for Kerry except one. After giving all our reasons for voting Kerry, we asked her why she voted Bush. Her response was, "duh...I dunno". I assume the entire state of Mississippi is giving the same reply. It's comforting to realize that the future of your nation is decided by "duh...i dunno". The rest of the class session was kinda depressing.
The scary thing is that I really believe that the anti-Bush sentiment around the world, will start to gradually transform into anti-Americanism, since its far easier now to relate the Bush regime to Americans.
I find it very very interesting to look at an electoral map from yesterday. It's pretty generally all the culturally elite 'cool' cities versus gun totin' gay hating abortion banning bibleville. Scary.
voting works so american citezens get to have a say. not just the citizens you deem worthy
i keep hearing this retarded stereotypicaly dividing the voters into 2 classes which are usualy something along the lines of "smart ones, and fag bashing gun toting ones"
its nice to split it up like that so people can pretend that even tho it was a fair election, that in someways it still was not fair because there was too many dumb sheep led to the booths,
Its over, the majority ruled. crying about it will not help, and the fighting and name calling will only serve to seperate us even more. Grind you ever consider the girl did not want to tell you all why she voted how she did because you all would have jumped down her throat just like its happening to certain people in here.
I personaly think bush has made some mistakes. i also think he has done soemthings right. who can say how any other president would have happened during these same situations. Its been a really tough time for us as a nation, and i'm sure it hasnt been a picnic for bush either. i was looking thru snopes.com and 90% of all the anti bush junk on their has all been fakes or either blown out of proportion, just like the bush flipping a berd video going around now giving the illusion that it had soemthign to do with this ellection, he was goofing off years ago when he was govenor an flipped a bird at one of his people. big frickin deal.
I think the attack on afganistan was waranted, but i do wish we would not have stopped before hunting down osama.
I think that going after sadam was a good thing to do even tho i think it was a major mistake to try and link it to the 9-11 atacks, and i think that a lot of it was sloppier than needed.. even tho that may not be directly bushs' fault.. i feel bad for the innocents that we caused injury and deat thoo in the attack, i feel sorrow for the innocents that died under sadams rule before we caught him. i feel even worse knowing that ultimatly it will be for no good because whoever takes charge will be just as bad.
I think a lot of you have it in your head that as soon as kerry was elected the war would stop, the economy would heal rainbows would spring up into the sky and all would be good in the world. and trust me if i ever saw a candidate who i thought could make that much of a diference i would cut my self in half jsut so i could cast 2 votes for him/her. kerry was little more than a figurehead that only had one thing going for him , "he was not bush" the democrats really need to find a candidate that people can back for who he is and what they believe he can do.
maybe in 08 pick ventura he's mentioned running in 08
Most things are easier when you don't look too deeply into into it.
Americans right now, just seem to me to be more concerned with having a leader who is willing to fight first than make apologies for the past.
There's the same north vs south (I'm not talking about geography) divide in every country, I think with America having felt more untouchable thanks to the Atlantic (in general, I'm not forgetting about Pearl Harbour and previous terrorist attacks) and recently having that feeling shaken out of them they can't help but focus more on external safety and that's what Bush has always pushed.
Whether Bush and Co did or did not cultivate this vulnerability is beside the point. I think a lot of people vote for the one the feel is most likely to take care of their most immediate problem and everything else gets put on hold until that is sorted out.
Of course, thats why other countries are worrying about how much it might take before Americans feel safe again, how much will be enough. I haven't met many people who want to continually police the world, I think they all want to just quieten the terrorist fear they are all touched by and move on.
I know you don't like my what you consider as my tendency to live in the past Daz, but we've lived with a lot of years of terrorism in the news in Britain, I don't think we can do anything other than empathize about how it must shock a country to suddenly learn what that is like.
As , like yourself, I live here now ( and near the heart of Bibleville) I've tried to listen to the local viewpoint and make peace with it as much as I can.
While it looks to me like people are being mislead and that Bush is probably the most insulting excuse for a puppet possible, there's never going to be anyone there to say I'm right and what good would it do me if there were.
I don't think a war against a concept can be won but maybe it can be.
I thought a hopeful point was brought up about all our young competition in the industry being drafted though!
Well apologies for making that assumption Scooby.
Snemmy: really? Im not convinced of any correlation at all on this board between the Bush dislikers and their incomes. Actually I think for the most part games artists make pretty resonable salaries. Generally it might be that artistic types tend to be a little more sensitive. But I really dont know why the views on this board dont seem to represent the apparent 50/50 ( ish ) split of the nation on politics.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's somewhat true that more of the artists tend to be more liberal while more of the conservatives either don't use computers, are too poor to afford them, or stay away from anything too artsy or "different".
Of course these are just sweeping generalizations, but I've noticed that they tend to be somewhat true.
"i keep hearing this retarded stereotypicaly dividing the voters into 2 classes which are usualy something along the lines of "smart ones, and fag bashing gun toting ones"
hehe well it would be naiive to deny the link! Most people seem to have voted from a moral perspective. Plus, like Ror said, the things that immediately affect them. Like owning guns for instance. I disagree Mojo 100% that anyone was under the misguided notion that Kerry getting in meant instant end to war in Iraq, but it sure as hell would have meant not starting any new ones.
As a foreigner here, It actually pains me to see the foreign opinion of Americans generally decline. I find more and more people back home question me on why the hell I live here 'amongst them'. I find myself constantly 'defending' them and their actions. But that'll get much harder now. Selfish way of thinking I know
I like the bachelors degree voting thing yeah! Good idea.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've got two degrees, so that naturally means my vote counts twice!
I think it would me more appropriate to vote for the candidate who is more suitable for the current situation.
But then again im from a country which has like 1 party for every 100k people and we cant vote president which doesnt mater because he has no real power anyways :P
that having a different monkey on the hotseat each time around will make things 'different'.
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly out of this reason I originally intended to stay out of this discussion (other than that joke pic I posted earlier).
My oppinion of this is that it is probably good that Bush won (read on!), simply because it might result in a real opposition in the US, not like the Democrats that are basicly "Bush, but nicer".
If Kerry would have won there would be likely the situation we have in Germany right now; A social democrat gouvernment that basicly is not social at all, but hides that AND is playing the "lesser evil game" by saying "be happy that we are in power, because the conservatives would be even worse".
But as you might have guessed by now, I am maybe just projecting my hopes and believes onto the USA.
On an interesting sidenote, I really agree with Rorshach, even though I thought he is a "backwardish nationalist" after reading his posts in the James Bond thread
That place had some pretty nice facts (note- facts.. they had links to official sites with hardcore facts)
What bothers me about this, is that every "why did Bush win/Kerry lose" site, most of the bush supporters actually supported him because he "stayed by his statements".. xP
I've got two degrees, so that naturally means my vote counts twice!
[/ QUOTE ]
Not in Ohio it won't. Once is difficult as is. Muwahahaha! I actually had to get in line twice when I voted because I forgot to sign something. Some of the other voters started freaking out.
Why do Republican voters who are worried about national security vote in an administration who makes international enemies?
--
"But Ross the election was about moral values"
When does the body count of dead Iraqi civilians register as morally unacceptable?
100,000 dead, almost 27 times that of the victims of sept 11th (3,711)
--
Isn't it aparent by now you can't wage war against small, decentralized terrorist cells?
Five hijackers aboard the flight led by Mohamed Atta. If all it takes is five, and...
These aren't abstract concepts:
-They aren't afraid of dieing
-They have no safe place they call home
-They are motivated by faith
Many morally conscious voters probably understand the unparalleled motivating power of faith.
One nation can invade and squash millions of enemies...you can always miss five.
I don't doubt Mojo, Scott or Duke's intelligence one bit. But isn't this stuff undebatable and self evident?
I'm genuinely confused and even a little shocked
....and a lil' hungry, so I have to stop editing this.
-R
The country is not nearly as divided as the far left wants you to believe right now. MOST of the country is still moderate.
Oh well, politics suck as usual - let's get on to the polies, shall we?!
The real reason Bush won? Because the democrats have allowed whiny liberal Hollywood to become their voice, which postivively ELIMATES right leaning moderates from ever voting for a democratic candidate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow! That's EXACTLY what the Fox "News" channel says!
Wow! That's EXACTLY what the Fox "News" channel says!
[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't know - I don't watch it. Seriously.
People feel better to label other people, it helps to file you away in their memory banks and allocate a geographic area in their mind for you. * I do the same thing. * The problem is when someone is static, or changes alot, it messes up the pre-concluded assumptions and thows them out of wack.
Like old Dukester will surprise me now or then or Milla with post something I'd never have guessed.
This would explain why 99% of the political threads on these boards are about American politics, even though the number of American polycounters is far lower than 99%.
Was I pissed that Bush got voted back in? Yeah, a bit, I can't vote but I can still root for who I want to unofficially. But it's over, it's done, he's there for another 4 years and we just have to get on with life and put up with it. The ways these things go, no matter who's in the hot seat most people, including those that voted for them, will moan about a huge amount of choices they make, and say how great it was under the last leader. That's the way of the world.
I can't hold it against the Americans for voting him in again either really, hell, we had Thatcher for, possibly the most reviled Prime Minister in the last 100 years, and the country took a long arsed time to recover from some of the things she did, but she kept getting voted in every damn election. She'd probably still be there if she hadn't quit
As for the Terrorism thing, where everyone's running around wondering when the next attack is going to happen, well, I'm a Brit, I've had more bomb scares than most americans have had hot dinners, my mothers boyfriend missed being blown up by six minutes one morning (He had a nice view into his office from the street when he got there, since the wall had collapsed). So I have trouble getting used to how much it bothers people since the British way of dealing with it is to just get on with things. If it happens it happens, I'm still more likely to get hit by a car or contract cancer.
Hmmm... I had a point, but I've rambled so much I forgot what it was. Oh well, back to work!
This whole string makes me so depressed, reading it over and over, I seem stuck so to speak. It is almost like a death. You know Kerry was a pretty poor Democratic choice, what I dont get about you guys is this anybody but Bush thing was going around. But in some of our minds it was anybody but Kerry. I wish everyone would stop the name calling and the assumptions because anyone who voted for Bush wants to haul guns around in the back window of their pickup and drink beer, hates gays, wants to blow up abortion clinics and approves of the death or Iraqi victums & loves war.. Are you all so narrow minded you believe this? I was actually kinda hoping Bush lost just so the next four years here would be uncluttered by political threads but it is not going to be that way.
I wish everyone would stop the name calling and the assumptions because anyone who voted for Bush wants to haul guns around in the back window of their pickup and drink beer, hates gays, wants to blow up abortion clinics and approves of the death or Iraqi victums & loves war.. Are you all so narrow minded you believe this?
[/ QUOTE ]
I believe this. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some trees here that need hugging.
More seriously, I have decided that the great flaw in modern American democracy is that there's no way to force Colin Powell and John McCain to run together in 2008. Alas.
Youre missing the point frosty. Whilst its all too easy to poke fun and tout Bush supporters as gun toting yokels ( and equally easy to label anti-Bush people as tree hugging liberals ) , most of the people I know that didnt want Bush in power are objecting to his foreign policy. His continuation of leading the US down a road of being globally despised. The regime have an agenda, and part of that is to force democracy on the world. Thats going to mean more war. If you're up for that then theres no problem is there?
Btw, Bush does hate gays ;-p
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3983443.stm
It was not my inference that Brits are made of sterner stuff, it was my intent to point out that terrorism is so familiar, that the press and people in general are not so alarmist about it anymore as the decades previous, proved that you can't really beat terrorism by brute strength.
I think in Britain terrorism is looked upon more like 2 old men that are arguing over some old flame, neither of them can remember the full bones of the disagreement and nor does anyone else. We wish they would stop arguing, but we are adult enough to realise that theres nothing we can really say to resolve their differences and stop them arguing, if we could, or they find peace for a while, its inevitable that something else will spur them on again later.
If you can equate how commonplace my described story is to how such stories only become familiar once you have heard them enough, then you might begin to understand the way in which terrorism has become entangled within the British way of life.
We say 'bloody terrorists are at it again' and sigh in the same way you might say ' bloody kids are playing their damn rap music till all hours again'.
It's not that we think it is a smaller problem than you either, its just become less of a focus because it's been commonplace for so long.
That is not to say that the Irish situation is a small thing, it most certainly is not.
Nor am I stating that the fear of being bombed does not scare us, or that we do not feel the loss of those that have died in the struggle.
I hope that clears things up a little.
http://www.massinc.org/Commonwealth/new_map_exclusive/beyond_red_blue.html
As for me being political sheep, you couldnt be farther from the mark PAL. Its fairly well proven scientifically and historically that the Democratic party is elected by those segments of the populace with the lowest incomes, education, and understanding of the political machine. So that makes you the sheep. Line up so I can shear your hairy ass.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey I was wondering, could you back up the statement that this is "well proven scientifically and historically" with some attributable facts? Here are some facts from the 2000 US Census, from this page about educational census results:
http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCT...-9&-_sse=on
From looking at this you will see that the ten most educated states/districts, as expressed by the percentage of adults with a bachelor's degree or greater, are D.C. (50.6%), Massachusetts (41.4%), Connecticut (35.3%), Colorado (34.8%), New Jersey (34.7%), Minnesota (34.5%), Maryland (34.2%), New York (33.3%), Virginia (33.1%), and Illinois (32.3%). Of these top ten educated states, eight voted democratic this year.
Now for the least educated states: Nevada (17.3%), West Virginia (17.6%), Mississippi (18.3%), Arkansas (18.8%), New Mexico (20.1%), Kentucky (20.8%), Louisiana (21.0%), Alaska (21.3%), Oklahoma (21.6%), and Alabama (21.8%). Of these ten least educated states, all ten went for Bush.
If you look at the financial data from the census website they generally follow this same pattern, with higher-educated states having higher median and per capita incomes, the one notable exception I noticed being Alaska.
So what is the scientific data backing up the claim that uneducated, poor people vote Democratic?
For an example, check out this map of Illinois, which went for Kerry:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/IL/P/00/index.html
Daz- the urban/rural (or metro/retro) divide is even sharper when you look at the county results. I'm having trouble finding one for this election, but I remember the 2000 county map was divided as such. This just blows my mind. I love this quote, taken from that site I posted above; ...David Brooks described this schism in more acerbic tones in the Atlantic Monthly in 2001: "In Red America churches are everywhere. In Blue America Thai restaurants are everywhere."
(dammit Andy, you beat me to it)
From USA Today
Hope this helps to clarify things.
Scott