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The state of the games industry

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Rockley Bonner polycounter lvl 12
Hello Polycount!

To whom it may concern...What do you think of the state of gaming in October 2023? It seems like many studios are folding over.

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  • iam717
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    iam717 interpolator
    Push to force movement in directions the "so-called", directors want the herds to go towards.  That move by unity conveniently pushed most towards u.e.5.  Making sure every industry gets hit with the so called new "direction" of things, which just shows how many people are in the circle of "control" or forced to conform.  Screams be more indie to me, make our own engines, be our own publishers, get on a net that isn't going to be "restricted".  Lot of work tbh to dodges these 'miscreants'.  The purchase of things being "collected" to one is another issue, since it means whatever that one want to do with many "studios", if you want to game under their umbrella then you have to conform to their b.s. generally the push is always online cause you probably could gfto, the net and be fine but then they can't control your kids, you, your money+ + + +
  • poopipe
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    poopipe grand marshal polycounter
    Any business where you have to invest a lot of money into something and don't see a return on your investment for 2-3 years is going to struggle when the world economy is in the shitter. 

    It'll pass - it happens every decade or so

  • zetheros
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    zetheros sublime tool
    it's of no surprise; put people only interested in short-term gain into leadership positions and they will run your company into the ground. This is long-due comeuppance. Anyone doing a shocked pikachu face right now has been living under a rock.
  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    short term gain for the company can be more money than CEO can spend in ten lifetimes though. And they can reinvest that money and then their awful children and next ten generations of family wont have to work for a living. So from their perspective its not short term. And why would Kotick or whoever care about you? It's not like you care about him. There is nothing which binds you together. Every relationship is purely transactional and empty.

    Even if some leader has a notion to do the social things almost nobody is going to notice because people don't even know what normal human behaviors are anymore, plus there is no financial reward for it, and worse there is no disincentive against doing the anti-social things. But there is every incentive to be anti-social and every mechanism rewards that behavior.











  • zetheros
  • Benjammin
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    Benjammin greentooth
    zetheros said:
    Am I supposed to watch a 20 min video to work out what point you're making, or is it just the title?  :p

    iam717 said:
    Push to force movement in directions the "so-called", directors want the herds to go towards.  That move by unity conveniently pushed most towards u.e.5.  Making sure every industry gets hit with the so called new "direction" of things, which just shows how many people are in the circle of "control" or forced to conform.  Screams be more indie to me, make our own engines, be our own publishers, get on a net that isn't going to be "restricted".  Lot of work tbh to dodges these 'miscreants'.  The purchase of things being "collected" to one is another issue, since it means whatever that one want to do with many "studios", if you want to game under their umbrella then you have to conform to their b.s. generally the push is always online cause you probably could gfto, the net and be fine but then they can't control your kids, you, your money+ + + +

    No offense but this reads like conspiracy theory. Your average indie steam release makes less than $10K over its lifetime (source) - publishers do serve a purpose. I'm not a big fan of Epic's increasing monopolization, but AAA studios like CDPR aren't switching to Unreal because of mind control - they're doing it because it makes financial sense to abandon their own tech.

  • zetheros
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    zetheros sublime tool
    I wasn't trying to make a point, just linking a video I thought was relevant lol
    you don't have to watch it if you don't want to
    Another relevant video, still not trying to make a point, just thought it's pretty spot on. Bit less sensationalist than BellularNews. Both are fellow game developers and I think have good takes
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxA9CgY4RXQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iUlY-0Wduw

  • Leinad
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    Leinad polycounter lvl 12
    Hello Polycount!

    To whom it may concern...What do you think of the state of gaming in October 2023? It seems like many studios are folding over.
    An interesting question to ask is how many studios make a (GAAP) profit to fund their operations?

    Here is a cool thread from 2008 below in Polycount that feels very relevant to this thread:
  • PolyHertz
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    PolyHertz polycount lvl 666
    Hello Polycount!

    To whom it may concern...What do you think of the state of gaming in October 2023? It seems like many studios are folding over.
    There's actually a thread about this going on over here: https://polycount.com/discussion/233851/industry-strugglin
  • starcow
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    starcow polycount sponsor
    Alex_J said:
    short term gain for the company can be more money than CEO can spend in ten lifetimes though. And they can reinvest that money and then their awful children and next ten generations of family wont have to work for a living. So from their perspective its not short term. And why would Kotick or whoever care about you? It's not like you care about him. There is nothing which binds you together. 



    As CEO, however, Kotick has a specific mandate. And this mandate is to act in the interest of the company. Purely personal motives are not relevant in this context and can therefore not be used to legitimise certain actions. The accusation of "short-sightedness" is therefore also based on how and whether he acts in the interest of the company - not whether he succeeds in enriching himself personally during this time. Therefore, such actions must also be morally condemned and legally sanctioned (not only in relation to Kotich).
    Alex_J said:
    Every relationship is purely transactional and empty 



    I am not sure how you want to understand this statement.
    It may be your subjective feeling, but objectively it is not correct. Whether human beings ultimately act in a purely egoistically motivated way is an often-discussed philosophical core question. Most experts will answer it in the negative. Our world is not deterministic in many respects. All these views may be interesting (and would also make some things easier to understand), but they fall short.
  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    some people have a habit of thinking about the team and acting in ways that help the team, others do the opposite. some have disorder which makes it impossible for them to not be selfish even if they were trained not to be. you could say that people who help the team only do so to help themselves but its kind of useless distinction to make because what we care about is result of following a method and result of a team of people who each puts team first is pretty much infinite survival, health and happiness, while a team with one too many selfish people splits apart soon and then lone wolves starve. Or in the case of agricultural boosted civilization it multiplies until it causes the sixth mass extinction and the host planet is destroyed.

    in the interim time though people still have to act normally and try to enjoy themselves, but capitalism is rewarding the people who make selfish decision such that people who don't like doing that simply have to if they want to "get ahead."

    transactional and empty relationship is like this:

    boss is going to work because he expects company to make him rich
    employee going to work because otherwise he'll be homeless next month
    do either of these people really care about the product they are making? no, its purely a means to different goal. for a time they feign interest in this mutual goal but employee will jump ship at higher pay job offer and boss will do the same.  everybody is constantly lying and putting on a face, we all know that the other person knows we are lying and that we know they know, but still the lies have to persist because nobody wants to face the real truth which is that if we don't play the charade then the guys with guns come and lock us away after we try to sleep on park bench. it's just brutal, exploitative and ultimately enforced by violence which feels very weird to an animal which has evolved to cooperate above all else.

    Boss will also fire as many people as he can as soon as possible to bring a few dollars more to his already swelling bank account. Neither the employees nor the boss have an incentive to build relationship with each other. They'll never see each other again. They don't depend on each other. They only use each other for some time to attain ulterior goals. The boss does not care about the character of his employees and the vice versa. Everybody is only like a mercenary temporarily feigning normal human interactions in as far as it serves this purpose to survive the next month (or buy another yacht to one-up the other psychopaths).

    But the human psyche is evolved with a core set of expectations and virtually all of them are broken by the modern corporate relationship. We feel not like we are people in a human society but rather as enslaved animals being exploited by a cruel and indifferent master. Until the last century or so people largely depended on their character and reputation whereas today its just mercenaries selling their skill. and what skills do we need to survive? Constantly changes. Very confusing for an animal which for nearly a million years only had to do one thing: serve team and team serves you.

    So people are lonely because nobody else knows who they are, nobody depends on them, they are replaced without care, they have no lasting relationships and even long term friendships are empty because they are only built upon mutual interest, not true mutual dependency and trust. Even in a family unit it is constant warfare against cynically designed omnipresent technologies designed to isolate and destroy every relationship. Suicide among military veterans is particularly high not because of PTSD but because, for a brief moment, they have this evolutionary expectation met and then when it is lost, they feel lost. Society in comparison is seen as the empty, meaningless facade and there is no unseeing what has been seen.

    It's all because society has let psychopaths bubble to top of virtually every important post and thus we now all serve system which mimics the mind of a psychopath. It always wants more, it can never be satisfied, it cannot introspect, it cannot change, it can only grasp for more until every friendship is broken and everything is consumed. "only thing necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." all the good men do nothing which i guess means they are not good. If people have a toxic boss they just leave and go elsewhere. then 50 kids fight for the vacant spot and nobody even gives them a word of warning for fear or reprisal. Nobody gives a shit about the future enough to take the smallest iota of risk to defend it.

    The majority of people who are not born with anti-social personality disorders feel a constant drain, a constant tension, like real life is in another universe, some long forgotten dream, and here in this world the only thing to do is stave of misery for a time until we finally die. But this is not normal way for humans to live that's why it feels wrong. Humans are evolved to be as carefree and stupidly happy as dogs.

    As for philosophy I think its all bunk. i'm more interested in biology and anthropology as far as learning about why humans do anything they do, though its probably all understood by grade school by anybody paying attention.
  • Joopson
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    Joopson quad damage
    "As for philosophy I think its all bunk." says guy with a very cynical personal philosophy.

    No offense, but your whole post comes off like one of those people who says "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist", because they can't see their worldview is just another matter of perspective, and is shaped by their own personal experience as much as anybody else's. It's all subjective.

    There's truth in some of what you say, of course, but man, what a poisonous and cynical angle to come at the world from. It sets you up only for hollow interactions, and paints everything in black and white. Any ounce of falsity makes you a liar, any ounce of greed makes you only care about money; the truth is, its all, all, all, shades of grey. More than in a 16-bit greyscale image. Even the evilest person has good in them, even the most selfish decision can have good effects.

    I'll leave it at that, but my suggestion is that maybe you should read some philosophy, study some spirituality, because a lot of these things emphasize that every-present nuance. Nothing is only one thing. You'll be happier thinking this way, and it's the opposite of burying your head in the sand--
  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    of course it is all my own opinion and i am talking about things at large not individual person. any team large or small operates on some set of principles - its just that capitalism operates on principles of the psychopath.

    if my friend tells me he cant come to party because he is sick but i know he is not sick i don't think he is a terrible liar. and people who work for blizzard are not the scum of the earth but if/when they get laid off it may help them to make decision about what to do from there if they at least have some notion where they fit in big picture of things and what is going on. People are often exploited by virtue of their credulity so it seems like a good idea to say something about that, in same way if you are walking down trail and see a hole you tell any passerbys to watch their step. It's not like I am living in fear of the hole and miserable because of it.


  • zetheros
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    zetheros sublime tool
    check this out guys; Bungie's revenue down 45% https://old.reddit.com/r/destiny2/comments/17kv6ul/bungies_revenue_down_45_for_fiscal_year_2023_per/

    As a former Destiny 2 player, I can see why lol

    Suits to devs: Try and squeeze every last penny from our customers or you're fired

    Devs: but that will make the game bad, and customers will leave

    Suits: do it anyway, I have a small pp and need a new yacht to compensate

    Customers: the devs are greedy and im sick of grinding, time-gated content and MTX and FOMO *leaves*

    Suits: omg our customers left! Lets fire the devs because they made our game bad! The senior ones cost a lot of money and we can just replace them four to one with poor people in eastern europe or southeast asia.

    Devs: *gets fired* & months later on Linkedin "Guys, hate to bring it to you all, but I'm still looking for a position as xyz... If anyone has any leads..."

    Artists on polycount: Wait a sec, why is our industry dying? man this sure sucks. Guess I'll go make my own game because our industry leaders don't know how to make good games and like to steal human breast milk from fridges
  • Benjammin
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    Benjammin greentooth
    zetheros said:


    Suits to devs: Try and squeeze every last penny from our customers or you're fired

    Devs: but that will make the game bad, and customers will leave

    Suits: do it anyway, I have a small pp and need a new yacht to compensate

    Just to play devil's advocate for a moment...

     "'Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."
    Meaning that, while marketing folk and "suits" are trying to squeeze money out of their customers, its because its the only proven strategy for maintaining live games like Destiny. 

    So, it might be more like,
    Suits: "Do it anyway. Keeping you guys employed with the lights on is really expensive, and if we don't you're all out of a job."
  • zetheros
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    zetheros sublime tool
    The devil needs a new advocate. You're advocating that the devil is incompetent... or poor, which I don't think either is the case.

    Bungie's been around forever and they definitely know how to make good games. I have 1,722 hours in D2, and gave them $300 so me and my bros could go play Witch Queen. 

    They squeezed their playerbase too hard and now they're suffering the consequences.
  • Alex_J
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    Alex_J grand marshal polycounter
    suppose a person is just incompetent and tanks the company...

    whats that matter? result is the same either way right? I mean if we have the pitchforks out and making a decision whether to impale them or not maybe people want to know, "was he a bastard or just a dope?"

    But foir anybody making a decision about where to work, when to quit, when to unionize, the only thing they care about is if they are getting a fair share and if they are afforded the same securities as any other contributing member of the team.

    if CEO lays people off at same time he takes a bonus he is a bastard though. no defending that. and anybody who is knowingly getting paid more than peers and is staying hush hush about it in order to protect their job is, at best, a terrible coward.

    the only reason to mention these things is not to try and shame the unshameable or target them for retribution, its just so that people who might actually care about such things can understand that situation is not normal. by default people tend to assume that whatever their born-into situation is the normal and default one.
  • Benjammin
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    Benjammin greentooth
    zetheros said:
    The devil needs a new advocate. You're advocating that the devil is incompetent... or poor, which I don't think either is the case.

    Bungie's been around forever and they definitely know how to make good games. I have 1,722 hours in D2, and gave them $300 so me and my bros could go play Witch Queen. 

    They squeezed their playerbase too hard and now they're suffering the consequences.
    I was talking in more general terms about your portrayal of "suits", not Bungie specifically.

    I don't have experience with the US employment system. The vast majority of the stupidly rich CEOs and mass lay-offs that we see are US-based, because the US has law and culture that treat employees as expendable. This isn't actually the case in many (most?) other parts of the western world. 

    In NZ, the only way I can be fired on the spot is by breaching my contract or gross misconduct. Redundancy and downsizing are long, involved processes which can be legally challenged by employees. This is why I suggest that some of these monetization decisions might actually be made to keep a studio running, and not to buy someone a new yacht :)

    But, I'm not a financial analyst, so I'll just leave this here: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/what-the-hell-is-going-on-with-video-games-analysis



  • zetheros
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    zetheros sublime tool
    Ok, well I'm not an expert on this either, so instead of being weird and ragging on Bungie on a public forum, I'll leave this here too. My condolences to everyone who was let go.



  • iam717
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    iam717 interpolator
    Benjammin said:
    - they're doing it because it makes financial sense to abandon their own tech.

    Ty benjammin for being respectfully appropriate and not condescending, just to add to that remark but they are feeding into the machine, tencent is not great.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGuWfjvBNwE & 2nd comment and there is an epic video there you can also look at since tencent has their hands in there also? so if it is conspiracy, we just saw unity push their people into the hands of EPIC/Unreal, so if it sounds conspiracy but the moves are confirming it, is it really conspiracy, also people have said that name was created by the f.b.eye. because they wanted the heat of them for concocting situations and could dismiss them with that word making it -"taboo" once it was marked so.  Then the public avoids that person or topic or company, its the same brainwashing i spoke of earlier, sadly it is all linked and i know i used to be like the rest sceptical but it is pretty nuts how far the rabbit hole goes.
    worth repeating : Look into the investors/stock holders, if anything they are leading the situation we are all starting to hate if they are just following the money, then follow the moves they make and why? perhaps or find someone who is.  if you do not want to listen to me go find out, if it will effect you eventually look into why at least.
    And then conveniently:  https://polycount.com/discussion/234113/tim-sweeney-says-unreal-might-move-to-a-seat-based-software-model-in-2024#latest - ... come'on ...
    If you actually want to know more of the direction they want us, go to rumble site the show EyesisWatchin  Podcast #118, congrats.

  • Benjammin
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    Benjammin greentooth
    iam717 said:
    Benjammin said:
    - they're doing it because it makes financial sense to abandon their own tech.

    Ty benjammin for being respectfully appropriate and not condescending, just to add to that remark but they are feeding into the machine, tencent is not great.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGuWfjvBNwE & 2nd comment and there is an epic video there you can also look at since tencent has their hands in there also? so if it is conspiracy, we just saw unity push their people into the hands of EPIC/Unreal, so if it sounds conspiracy but the moves are confirming it, is it really conspiracy, also people have said that name was created by the f.b.eye. because they wanted the heat of them for concocting situations and could dismiss them with that word making it -"taboo" once it was marked so.  Then the public avoids that person or topic or company, its the same brainwashing i spoke of earlier, sadly it is all linked and i know i used to be like the rest sceptical but it is pretty nuts how far the rabbit hole goes.
    worth repeating : Look into the investors/stock holders, if anything they are leading the situation we are all starting to hate if they are just following the money, then follow the moves they make and why? perhaps or find someone who is.  if you do not want to listen to me go find out, if it will effect you eventually look into why at least.
    And then conveniently:  https://polycount.com/discussion/234113/tim-sweeney-says-unreal-might-move-to-a-seat-based-software-model-in-2024#latest - ... come'on ...
    If you actually want to know more of the direction they want us, go to rumble site the show EyesisWatchin  Podcast #118, congrats.

    I can't follow you into that rabbit hole, friend. I can't even follow your train of thought. It seems like your general assumption is that "someone" is controlling the direction of the industry, and as a general rule I assume that no one is in control of anything. 
    So, we'll have to agree to disagree :)
  • NikhilR
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    NikhilR polycounter
    I found this video to be very informative on this matter,

    #2 - Game Over or Reset? Mass Layoffs in VFX & Games, Hollywood Strikes, AI Takeover

    https://youtu.be/__4zJM2WOuE
  • CyberdemoN_1542
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    CyberdemoN_1542 polycounter lvl 5
    I'm feeling it. Been in the industry for 3 years and all 3 projects I participated on got axed. I've got nothing to show.

    Perhaps I can survive for longer if I become a pure game developer. I've always wanted to make my own games and I am not sure if my game ideas are replicable by AI.

    ...I still love making guns and hard surface stuff though....it's going to break my heart when that goes the way of the dinosaur. I'm not sure if 3D modeling will be a job in the future. Just look at that Turbosquid + Nvidia AI thing. It's probably crap right now but look at how crap 2D was just one year ago. These people can't wait to put us out of business and see us suffer. They're very gleeful about it.

    I really feel like I am screwed.
  • zetheros
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    zetheros sublime tool
    you'll need a day job, but I 100% recommend being a game developer, it's the only thing healing / improving my mental health with all of the shit going on in this industry right now. It'll make you less easy to replace by AI too. You'll keep learning and keep improving, and when things get better you'll be a more valuable hire if game dev doesn't pan out. No zero days & keep a journal
  • CyberdemoN_1542
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    CyberdemoN_1542 polycounter lvl 5
    zetheros said:
    you'll need a day job, but I 100% recommend being a game developer, it's the only thing healing / improving my mental health with all of the shit going on in this industry right now. It'll make you less easy to replace by AI too. You'll keep learning and keep improving, and when things get better you'll be a more valuable hire if game dev doesn't pan out. No zero days & keep a journal
    I'm an outsourcer part of a conglomerate. I have a job. I have good bosses. I'm lucky. At least financially speaking. The problem with being an outsourcer though is that you are kind of a jack of all trades master of none. Plus, all projects I participated in were highly technical with basically no artistic side and aside from a few really cool props I made I have nothing to show for it.. The positive is that I learned a lot about game development.

    I'm not sure if this is general but all clients we've worked with in the last years used complicated in-engine shaders with MLIs and whatnot. In fact, it's not complicated but the way they were implemented and explained was a big clusterfuck. And even once you get the hang of it, it's tough making something look good with 2-3 layers in your MSI stack and low res masks. Even our current client has gone through 4 workflow overhauls. It seems like every client is repeating the same costly mistakes. 

    To sum up, at least from my POV, which is that of an environment artist, it seems like game art is becoming less artistic and more technical. 


  • zetheros
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    zetheros sublime tool
    eh, I always thought environment art has been more technical, and for good reason because of performance and simply a lack of manpower to paint entire landmasses or cities by hand when you can use procgen, modular workflows, and masks to accomplish most of it. Even with a game with handpainted assets there will be a lot of technical stuff to go with.

    Level designing, placing assets, deciding level flow & elevation, (and light sources!) around has always been artistic though imo
  • CyberdemoN_1542
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    CyberdemoN_1542 polycounter lvl 5
    zetheros said:
    eh, I always thought environment art has been more technical, and for good reason because of performance and simply a lack of manpower to paint entire landmasses or cities by hand when you can use procgen, modular workflows, and masks to accomplish most of it. Even with a game with handpainted assets there will be a lot of technical stuff to go with.

    Level designing, placing assets, deciding level flow & elevation, (and light sources!) around has always been artistic though imo
    I've only participated in 3 failed projects so I don't know if this is general but they all had one thing in common. They all used real-time in-engine MLI workflows with low res RGB masks with maximum 4-5 layers. The documentation was usually terrible. The clients also made huge changes to the workflows every few months because of performance I saw the same big and costly mistakes being repeated from project to project. Aside from one, these were big companies btw. Big costly mistakes don't don't mesh well with a malfunctioning economy.

    It's really hard to get subtle details in when you use this workflow. I really just want to do stuff in painter, have 100 layers and not worry about all this but even those unique 2k textures are quite pricey in terms of performance. I'm getting used to it and I definitely see the pros when it comes to clean sci fi stuff but whenever you want to do worn grungy stuff it becomes a nightmare. Doom Eternal uses this workflow and it looks great but it's sci fi.
  • zetheros
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    zetheros sublime tool
    I actually don't know what MLI stands for, but I'm familiar with terrain masking and material blending. It sounds like a lot of communication issues to me, which sucks

    A problem with corporate structure in games is that you need approval on everything, it's especially frustrating when you're a specialist and just want to achieve good results, but are told to make bad work on purpose, even when informing them otherwise.
  • CyberdemoN_1542
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    CyberdemoN_1542 polycounter lvl 5
    zetheros said:
    I actually don't know what MLI stands for, but I'm familiar with terrain masking and material blending. It sounds like a lot of communication issues to me, which sucks

    A problem with corporate structure in games is that you need approval on everything, it's especially frustrating when you're a specialist and just want to achieve good results, but are told to make bad work on purpose, even when informing them otherwise.
    Yes, this is what's going on right now. I really just want to make stuff, not worry about countless checklists and reworking stuff over and over.

    MLIs are Material Layer (Instances) that you load in MSIs, Material Stack (Instances), and then blend with RGB blend masks. It sounds easy and it should be but so far every implementation has been a nightmare to work with. 

    The reason I bring this up is because the constant back and forth between versions of the shaders and our work has to be expensive for the client. Eventually the money dries up and everything I mention doesn't help.

    On my end, I feel like I am growing technically but stagnating and even degrading artistically. All I'm doing is making blend masks and then working with 2 maybe three layers in engine and try to squeeze as much quality as I can with the limited resources. These workflows don't seem to be artist friendly.
  • zetheros
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    zetheros sublime tool
    yea, personal projects where you can go all-out with your skill and possibly even be portfolio pieces can help there imo. Make a few of those and hopefully you can get noticed by people who care about quality and doing things the right way
  • CyberdemoN_1542
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    CyberdemoN_1542 polycounter lvl 5
    zetheros said:
    yea, personal projects where you can go all-out with your skill and possibly even be portfolio pieces can help there imo. Make a few of those and hopefully you can get noticed by people who care about quality and doing things the right way
    Yeah, if only I still had the energy after work.
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