Opportunities to get one's foot in the door?
greentooth
Greetings be to thee fellow artists of Polycount! I am a junior 3D Environment Artist living in the magical kingdom of Los Angeles seeking some wisdom regarding alternative career opportunities to help get my foot in the door. I moved here about a year ago and began the career hunt last January, which to this point, has spawned nothing but crickets and rejection (aside from an internship with a small VR studio). Although I may be delusional in certain aspects of my life, I have no delusions that my work needs to be better, and in my free time, I am taking every chance and opportunity to better skills and the content of my current personal portfolio project, and the presentation thereof. That said, I work in the veterinary field and struggle often to be as productive with my art as I want to be due to how physically and mentally exhausting my job tends to be, and am trying to think of other creative ways to pay the rent/bills while still having the time/energy to pursue my art career and possibly build something of a network at the same time.
I was wondering if, living in an area like L.A., there were job opportunities with studios unrelated to being an artist that I should be looking out for that may help me at least get my foot in the door somewhere and afford me the opportunity to see and experience the studio environment and possibly make some acquaintances? I have applied to a few receptionist positions with some larger studios, and was wondering if there were other entry level positions I should keep any eye out for? Janitorial? Court Jester? Etc... Also, is there any benefit to showing up in-person to any of these studios and inquiring about job opportunities? Everything seems to be online these days, and I worry that it's easy as a candidate to get lost in the shuffle of all the competition. I feel like there is a lot of opportunity in a place like L.A., but it's also a very daunting and overwhelming place for a new guy like me and I am honestly unsure how to pursue any said potential opportunity and was looking for some guidance from those who may be more familiar?
Thanks be to ye all, praise the sun!
I was wondering if, living in an area like L.A., there were job opportunities with studios unrelated to being an artist that I should be looking out for that may help me at least get my foot in the door somewhere and afford me the opportunity to see and experience the studio environment and possibly make some acquaintances? I have applied to a few receptionist positions with some larger studios, and was wondering if there were other entry level positions I should keep any eye out for? Janitorial? Court Jester? Etc... Also, is there any benefit to showing up in-person to any of these studios and inquiring about job opportunities? Everything seems to be online these days, and I worry that it's easy as a candidate to get lost in the shuffle of all the competition. I feel like there is a lot of opportunity in a place like L.A., but it's also a very daunting and overwhelming place for a new guy like me and I am honestly unsure how to pursue any said potential opportunity and was looking for some guidance from those who may be more familiar?
Thanks be to ye all, praise the sun!
Replies
I've heard the advice that people looking to break into the industry can get a job as a production runner, making coffee and regular assistant duties. You build up contacts, and can pester them about letting you help them with small art tasks. But other professionals have told me to drop that idea and just concentrate on making better art.
- Join the Polycount Slack and let them rip apart your portfolio and tell you what you should be doing if you want a job.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSc6Xl7jx8C4VQjfCgc44EQwm71UpmFQRQWBNvfOtx94SGXxuQ/viewform?c=0&w=1
- Complete every ArtStation challenge... or complete Polycount's bi-monthly challenges.... or complete a new environment every 2 months.
- Cut back on hours at work. Cut back on video games. Cut back on Netflix. Cut back on sugar cuz we generally eat too much in our society.
Good luck man!
If you don't have strong reason to live in expensive place, how do you justify It? Rhetorical question.
Don't rent. It's biggest waste of money there is. Netflix and coffee is nothing compared to money wasted on renting. Every person's first priority should be to own property. I'd make that number one goal. Otherwise it's real hard to climb out the hole, and so long as you renting you just digging deeper and deeper.
You work in vet? Consider doing that in cheap place. Veterinarians in rural places gonna need help. You can save money then which can buy you "vacations" in which you do your art a hundred hours a day for weeks at a time.
As mentioned, get serious about budgeting if.you aren't already. Even still, I don't think it makes sense to live in LA on anything less than six figures, unless you have zero plans beyond paycheck grinding. There is a million other people there just like you fighting for same scrap of bread. If you don't strongly believe in your heart that you really are one in ten million, just seems like the wrong approach IMO.
You want to give yourself every advantage possible. You will have learning and practice advantage is you have fewer worries in your life. Worrying about money is biggest stressor. Work won't be as taxing if it nets you extra money to save each month. Also, if you are coming into jobs from position of finamcial comfort, you less likely to accept awful ones just to "get in the door." I can't stress how much worse it is to work for a terrible boss/company than to be unemployed. That's not how you want to start a career if you can help it.
In any case, it's good you're in LA, lot of jobs, as you already know.
I would linkedin, search specifically places and look for their recruiters and add them, send a message inquiring. Your work currently, as you also know needs some love but all good in time. That said, I do think there's potential if you can keep looking for VR / Previs work. Only 1 that comes to mind is "Halon" and "Moving Picture Company" where you can do Previs, which what I've seen is Unreal Engine.
The Mill, has a good runner program it seems, if you want to try that route as well.
In meantime, I think your base knowledge is foundational, and I would look for a workshop to go professional, CGMA environment workshop perhaps, or I think this "Josh Lynch" has some mentorship website too going on nowadays. At Gnomon, a school in the area, Environment for Games class may be solid too. Whatever it is, just a full class, dedicated to something in professional quality. 0 to 100. Sorry I'm not in games currently but have seen lot of game artists go to VR / Previs in the area.
I think I see your issue currently just wanting to go all in, so I hope you can find something that aligns hopefully in next few months to boost your motivation etc.
Good luck, you got this!
Oh and imo, in LA, if previs, try to go $30 at least. And Environment or such $35. Just start your hourly negotiation there and then let it deviate if needed.
You're better suited looking for work that will protect your art making time. Whatt that is varies. Personally for me, manual labor jobs like groundsskeeeping at golf courses, etc. have proven beneficial for me. In general, I'd encourage finding survival work that is NOT entertainment related to avoid that stress UNTIL you get the job in entertainment that you want.
If you want to work on actual games on a volunteer basis, reach out to USC Games. They would have need for experienced environment artists of your caliber, but you'll need to vet the teams out: figure out who is best for what you want to do on a volunteer basis.
This is the kind of work we're talking about. Our team made this back in 2014, I was Art Directing as a Senior.
https://maestrosgame.com/
Outer Wilds (not Outer Worlds) originally began as a USC Master thesis project and look, they ended up shipping properly.
Showing up to a studio in person is not a thing people do here.
Which part of LA are you in?
@Alex Javor
When it's a city effuse with tacos, sweat, and gasoline, you make sacrifices to stay in the chaos and fire. Granted I've grown up here, but I'll rep Los Angeles for kilometers and kilometers. Where else could you find something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6gzwkVvTUs
Looking at your artstation, your work is not up to the industry standard of quality, it's ok, but needs that extra push of skill development to help you stand out. There also just isn't enough work in your portfolio at the moment, I would want to see a couple more scenes if you want to be an environment artist.aim for 4-5 solid pieces.
LA is extremely competitive and the quality bar of the studios out there is insanely high. Naughty Dog, Sony Santa Monica, Respawn etc So your work needs to be at a really high level.
I would pick 1-2 studios you really want to work at and custom tailor your portfolio with content that looks like it would directly fit in their games. This will make you more attractive for when your work gets to their level over the next couple years and they are most likely ramping up on the next sequel and need talent.
In terms of living, I would echo what others have been saying, live as cheap as possible. Get a job that pays you the most while having to work the least amount of hours and gives you time to work on your art. Live with 5 room mates if need be to cut down on your costs. will it suck? probably, but what is your end goal?
100% of your focus should be on the one thing you can control, the quality of your art. Looking for side routes or potential shortcuts/hacks on how to get into a studio is not going to pay off vs investing your time in producing new content for your portfolio which has a WAY higher chance of a better ROI for your time.
I currently do QA as a side gig to freelance and it is the only job that gives the flexibility to actually do art on the side.
Maybe its because its 3rd party, though not sure what it pays would cover living in LA.
I have a colleague in QA at Ubisoft toronto, and while his job is model checking (art pass) there are ways internally to move into art positions. The political bs is what prevents it in addition to his own efforts into creating art up to standard which in his opinion isn't really necessary for the work that is actually done in the studio.
For example a model artist friend of ours in the same company doesn't do any actual art. He basically fixes models that are acquired through an outsource company. He wants to move to characters, but there just isn't enough work to go around the majority of which is outsourced.
Coming from their perspective its not like the artists currently working are ultimate top tier gods picked purely because of their art skills each of whom has total control on every art asset from start to finish. But they do see stability and people there are more likely to entertain your questions.
What I mean is that being internal helps a great deal, HR for one are way nicer to you, and other artists may back you because you play street fighter with them (even if your art is crap but can get better on the job)
So if you do get to join as a QA person, join and network for a year, but if rubbish you can't control stops your moving into art its time to move on.
In fact my friend was told to leave the company and join somewhere else, then quit and come back for 1$ bump in pay/hour, lol.
Also maybe a good idea to look into where you're currently working. Perhaps you can innovate in the company and grow in the industry that way.
Unless you're set on getting that brand name company on your resume, sometimes I feel like the work you actually do in the studios doesn't really compare to what you're expected to put out solo in your portfolio.
Its only in freelance that I've ever had to take care of every aspect of the pipeline on a deliverable, in AAA you work on a part of the process so I think the top tier art bs is really just to filter through the mad saturation.
I also feel that having prior industry experience seems to count more since recruiters seem to be convinced that its a safer bet to poach than hire new talent.
If you are able to move to somewhere less crazy, work in a smaller company that gives you the flexibilty to push your portfolio so you can work in AAA games later as freelancer or even develop your own brand, you can have a better life at the cost of not having contributed to a video game as a junior and given the bum deal as far as pay/benefits/work hours.etc
For instance I've see a number of environment artists dedicate themselves to mastering substance designer, they create incredible stuff and that makes them the go to people for substances/texturing.
That ought to be an artists ultimate goal, a mastery of your passion. If that is something a company can bank on for its profit and everyone benefits then great!
A lot of seniors here are likely having a good time, but applying that experience to a junior starting out because its competitive is capitalism at its finest.
Imagine if people were actually happy where they were and companies made that possible. There would be less poaching and more hiring of new talent in this cutthroat business.
One interesting trend I've noticed here from a few companies is hiring seniors for internships. I can understand why they do it, what I don't get is how they actually get applicants willing to take a paycut just to get into the company.
The one thing we need the most in this business is dignity, I'm not sure how your portfolio compensates for that.
-Living in LA
-Working in QA to get your foot in the door.
-Showing up at a studio doorstep with your portfolio. (please don't do that)
These things will help you find a job as artist:
-Create great art.
Whatever you do, focus on that last bit. If you get a job, do one that gives you time to improve your art. That's it.
"I have a colleague in QA at Ubisoft toronto, and while his job is model checking (art pass) there are ways internally to move into art positions. The political bs is what prevents it in addition to his own efforts into creating art up to standard which in his opinion isn't really necessary for the work that is actually done in the studio."
yes it is totally possible to transfer internally, and depending on the studio a great chance to network...depending on how people at the studio view the QA department. You are right to bring up the political side of things, which is what I was talking about when I said it's easy to get viewed as "the coffee guy" or the "QA tester" and not be taken seriously as an artist by those around you. It sucks and I think it's a horrible mindset to have, but I have seen it happen at multiple studios. not to mention a lot of the time the QA section is segregated in a different part of the studio so you really gotta go outta your way to mix and mingle with people from other departments, however studio parties are great for this. but overall the amount of people who have gone from QA to artist successfully is quite low. QA > QA lead> associate producer however is more common, and another potential career path.
getting some studio/production experience and then getting a job at another studio would probably be the way of going about it if you wanna go that route, as you will be coming in as a fresh face fresh and not have pre-set expectations built over a couple years of working with the people in production.
the second part of that statement of the artist being like "well the studios output quality isn't actually that good, so why should I have to be amazing?" is probably part of the reason they are not working as an artist. If you go in with the "good enough" mindset you are not going to push your skills nearly as far and hard as you potentially could. its like setting a low goal from the outset instead of aiming for true mastery and pushing each portfolio piece as hard and far as possible. It's like installing a speed limiter on a car.
You really keep getting hung up on that top tier stuff, I never said you have to be at that level, simply: the closer you can push yourself to outputting high level work like those guys, the easier your life will be when it comes to getting a job as you close the gap. You don't have to be raf grassetti to get 90% of character art jobs, but continually attempting to get to that level of skill in your chosen specialization will simply make all aspects of getting an art job easier. the better your portfolio, the more people will reach out to you to see if you want to work for them, instead of you having to apply to a ton of studios and wait around hoping. People reaching out to you gives you a huge amount of leverage in the hiring process. people get back to you faster, move quicker on applications and are more eager to sign you. Its like the hot girl theory in high school. everyone wants to get with the hot, popular chick. it's hacking peoples attention and cutting through the noise.out of 100 applicants, 80 will most likely fall into the "ok if not a bit forgettable" level of work/portfolio presentation.
People doing the hiring at studios like to feel they are getting a great deal. So even if the work being done at the studio isn't naughty dog/god of war level in terms of quality, if they see a junior outputting a senior level of work, that's an extremely attractive prospect. They get to hire a junior at a lower salary level and get a really badass artist. It feels like they are getting a great deal, vs feeling like they are settling on hiring someone who can just "do the work"
And of course prior experience makes you more attractive, it's like that in any job, it's another boost to the person who is doing the hiring's confidence that you can actually perform the job required. why do people choose coke and pepsi over the generic brand of cola in most cases? comfort based on past performance/experience. It's human nature to be weary of the unknown, no one wants to look like they screwed up at their job, HR included.
In reality, your salary is your level of skill + personality fit + negotiating skill + years of experience as a multiplier in most cases. That's how it works, and there are a ton of factors that come into play, such as production speed, amount of revisions needed etc. that most students/junior artists don't see as its day to day behind the scenes work. If a junior could output the exact same speed, quality and level of a senior, yes I would argue they deserve the same paygrade as a senior. in 12 years of working in the industry, I have never seen that happen however so various salary levels make sense.
I keep seeing you posting about seniors taking paycuts and the idea of them taking internships is something I have never seen and most artists with any professional experience would laugh an offer like that out of the room. If you mean an artist moving from somewhere like vancouver, LA or toronto to Montreal and getting a lower salary.....yea that's normal, the cost of living is lower here than those places. But to transition to another studio in town and take a pay cut....I have never heard of anyone I have worked with doing so. I wouldn't expect a job at an outsourcing studio in china to pay 100k a year if I decided to move there, but the overall cost of living would make far lower salary comparable in terms of lifestyle.
Most artists I know get awesome salary bumps whenever they change jobs, or simply turn down lowball offers that are near or at their current salary. If you are being poached, they are far more likely to offer you a huge salary boost and more than likely a signing bonus if they are serious and really want you. I just heard of an art director that got poached here in town and received a $250k signing bonus on top of a massive salary raise, and tbh that's not an uncommon story. Not really the picture of people desperately trying to get jobs and taking paycuts. If you were part of a huge round of layoffs or got fired, well yea expect some lower offers as you are the one desperate for a job to make rent and they people doing the hiring have all the leverage.
"Imagine if people were actually happy where they were and companies made that possible. There would be less poaching and more hiring of new talent in this cutthroat business."
I don't know where you are working or what your experience has been, but having worked at 5+ studios in both vancouver and montreal I can pretty confidently say that 80-90% of people I have worked with are pretty happy in their day to day jobs, and enjoy where they work. I know a bunch of people who have been working at Relic for 15+ years because they love it so much and probably turned down insane offers from Microsoft when they opened up in Vancouver because they were happy where they worked.
poaching is always going to happen, studios want experienced people, or people on the team are eager to hire people they worked with in the past. and on the flip, some people value money over a specific project or studio as that is their end goal so they are happy to jump ship even if they enjoy where they are at (and sometimes regret it after the fact and go back to their old spot). again, if a studio is reaching out to poach you, you have almost all the leverage to call the shots in that situation.
But both times when I have been on either side of that poaching equation (poacher/poachee), the first thing the art director and leads ask when you suggest someone or they send an email to hit you up is "what does their portfolio look like/send me your artstation link" and the same applies to internal movements within a studio, you are still going to have to show your work to the AD and leads looking to hire you and that is going to drastically influence their decision to hire you as an artist or not. So it's probably best to focus your time and energy on the one thing you can control that is going to be responsible for at least 70-80% of your results.
At the end of the day, it has always been my goal to have my portfolio make me look like as much of a "no brainer" steal of a deal as possible, and even with that said I would probably rate my own current 'folio a 7/10 relevant to montreal, and probably a 5/10 if I was in LA.
I have been approached by AAA companies in Montreal for interviews, which likely meant that there was something about the portfolio they liked.
The interviews also go well. The issue I face is after the interview where I don't hear back and then lose out because they hired someone with more industry experience or a fresh graduate.
Now this I can confirm since its possible to find out who that is, most of the time.
And I do this since its the only way I'd know more about what exactly they are looking for and where I'm falling short.
I agree that having industry experience does give an impression of competency, going from the interview and knowing what is expected of an entry level internship position it makes me wonder if it really does matter. Like it isn't even listed on the advertisement that they want experience.
Its like they are making things up as they go along. Its really bizarre.
I agree about adding more quality pieces to my portfolio is a good way forward, I mean its all I can really do on my side though my QA work has allowed me to network a whole lot better and get some studio experience (not game art pipeline experience) so I am hoping that counts for something.
As for seniors liking their jobs, I guess it depends on the perspective you see with. Like in the case of ubisoft toronto, a lot of seniors left because the company didn't try to retain them (usually because its cheaper to just move around internally)
If they got something better, sure they were happy, well the single ones with no families likely were. And toronto is mad expensive so for a lot of them losing a job didn't necessary mean a massive pay rise unless they were looking to leave the country.
When you have 15+ years of experience its a pretty different story. And especially if your single. Glassdoor gives a good idea of what the industry needs to improve on in working conditions compared to say the IT industry (revenue wise)
I understand the competitive aspect, its just the disparity in what is done internally vs the kind of portfolio quality expected going in that isn't making any sense.
Its still challenging for me to understand that sweet spot between portoflio quality, industry experience and shipped titles, but I'm going to keep trying.
Like if one of my pieces goes viral, I win an award or have an article on 80 level maybe that's a way to get more exposure.
But would I be doing all of that at the studio I work starting out? How much of my ability is actually leveraged, with me getting the responsibility I want over people in the company that have waited years for that chance.
And how much of the work is actually innovative from a production art perspective. Like its good to specialize in making really good rocks with I feel compares to my wanting to specialize in portraits for characters, but what needs to be gauged more is soft skills that go beyond technical competency.
Like when they ask me what my experience has been like working with people, I tell them that as a dentist I worked with over a 1000 patients and around 300 doctors in a very high stress environment.
Their question has nothing to do with my competancy in creating art in a collaborative environment, in fact as a junior they want me to do what they termed "boring grunt work" which I'm happy to do, and hopefully help to innovate processes that can expedite their pipeline in someway (I did this in my previous jobs)
Though majority of times it hasn't had any effect. Like they clearly don't want me to work at my level of quality, or use my experience to help them, so it makes me wonder what HR was thinking calling me in for an interview and then pulling out an outdated resume.
Weirdly, the job I got currently, I was told to hide my background since it might intimidate existing employees and isn't relevant (though it does make for some interesting conversation and enlightens the mind)
While its debatable just how high their standards are for art, their inability to leverage the full capacity of an applicants prior experience unrelated to art is pretty disturbing to me. Like even in companies like Google this is absolutely valued since they know how much further a company can grow with these additional skill sets.
I understand the reality of how its become, but I sometimes wonder if were my experience outside of games was considered by a more dynamic and open minded HR that didn't just want to play it safe, perhaps more would come out of it for both sides?
Also never randomly visit studios in person, try to look at this from their point of view. During a work day everybody is quite busy with their deadlines, people dont have the time for random chats with people who want to show their CV + folio thats what career expos are for. Same goes for calling studios. Just use their application system on their website.
Work hard and SMART and you will get there, when I started to look for a job at first I didnt get any responses. This meant I was that bad so I continued working on my skills and projects and a couple of months later I tried again, I got a couple of interviews and rejections, still no job but at least studios started to answer me which meant that I was getting closer. I kept on working and the next time I sent my CV I got a couple of job offers.
I'll still continue to keep my eyes peeled for snazzy opportunities that may exist, but in the meantime, i'll suck it up and just work through the veterinary exhaustion. Thanks again for all of your help, you all are truly awesome and I'd be lost with ya's!
West Hollywood!
Thanks, mate. It's always nice to hear other people's journeys/struggles. I used to get so frustrated/down by all the rejection and radio silence, but that's silly and now I've learned to just accept it as a form of advice and motivation to continue getting better.
This is very ungrateful career/job. We are all infected with the magic of CG but don't let it fool you.
If i were you, i would stick with my job in veterinary and when you have time and energy work on your portfolio easy.
You need to put soul and passion into it. (That's very hard especially if you have a job already doing something non-related to art, it's like you're dealing with two worlds. Switch from one mindset into the other.) I think nowadays ability to achieve realistic details is something that sells you out there.
if you can't achieve your goals as 3d artist even if you know you tryed really hard (but be honest with yourself) then ask yourself - why to love something that doesn't loves me back?