We cannot imagine something that is not somehow based on memories. For example, can you think of a color that nobodoy ever thought of before? No, because our imagination is indeed limited. Of course we can come up with ideas that are unique and very abstract. And many people lack of good imagination, but everything that is in the capabilities of our imagination could theoratically be "imagined" by AI.
How are atoms out of reality ? I think Einstein had a solid proof for atoms existence
Our mind is not limited just to visual info. Each person has a reality, and not all people see and feel the world in the same way. Our mind can "transform" our memories to create new ones, and it's a very complex thing we still don't know how it works. We can develop false memories aswell. There's also a part on the brain that creates memories from nothing, like i said before, "like from the void". Dreams are another thing we still don't understand. Some people can fly super fast or float in dreams, but they never experienced it. Others talk about other worlds in dreams, astral things, etc. Our brain is still a mistery, and it's said we have a whole cosmos in our brain.
In a far far future, the AI might think like us -it's pure speculation-, but only if we could translate -100%- into maths the way our mind works. But in fact, we do know nothing. And that's the problem with AI. All we can do are simple things like collect data and program a set of rules. And we are surprised with big data analytics? me not.
For me, AI is overvalued, idealized like a god in a past era. It's like people were replacing religion for AI and Smartphones. And in fact, actual AI is limited by us, by our limited knowledge. And tech is limited by physics. Sooner or later, we could not advance anymore, and one proof is in computer parts. All has an end, a limit.
When i said that about atoms, i was referring to the concept, because... can you see an atom? no, you can't. You know the idea of atom because someone teached you the concept with "words", but you never questioned that idea or memory. Greeks introduced the concept "atom", and they never saw anything. Did they have any kind of "memory" to imagine the concept of atoms?, no, they didn't. The idea or concept of "infinite", "void" is another example, did you experience anything in order to create a "memory"? Well, you can imagine the rest . Even a blind person can imagine without visual memories.
Like i said before, we just can play with some mathemathical logic to program a software that will make decissions according to a set of rules (fuzzy logic ). If just one rule is broken, or a new problem appears, the AI will give an error. So, we can say AI is highly idealized, it won't solve all of our problems, it's just a tool, a software, and not real inteligence.
Man, if we still have issues with beveling algorithms in all 3D apps.
I dont want to convince you of anything, but I think you are plain wrong in assuming that high expectations on AI are not very logic. Of course they are not as developed as other technologies, yet. I am sure if you read some about this new technology, you will change your mind on your own. AI is the future. If we will witness that future is a different question, but it is very likely for AI to advance and offer solutions for so many use cases including solutions where imagination and creativity is required.
I think you are also plain wrong, thinking in a irrational way, and not being realistic with all the facts and limitations we have (and they are there you know, but irrationally, "we dream we can achieve the sun" and that's impossible). I think you are just "dreaming" with AI advances. AI is overrated, and in any case, it would be a part of the future for automating processes, like advanced robotics, advanced materials manufacturing, etc.
Ai as it is now, with actual AI we can't achieve much more, ask Alexa, she's dumb and useless, she only execute known vocal commands. We can refine the AI to work smoother, and with less issues, but ask Alexa about the "feeling" of white color.
This remember me what i was said by my teacher at engineering, using the lathe and milling machine: "People think the machines will do all, but you need to introduce the correct mathemathical algorithm to do the job, you must add your brain"
Now people think machines will have a brain... I blame the films! too much imagination.
When people don't understand something they tend to fear it and think worst case scenario. It helped keep us safe when we where huddled around a campfire at night or when we where sizing up some new animal tracks that we had never seen before. It could be dangerous, avoid it.
We got that way because the cautious ones survived. Self preservation is probably a good trait to have but we need to temper that with what is actually happening, how fast it is happening and what the end results might be.
Automation isn't new. People have always dealt with it and always will. I'm very thankful I don't have to use pencils and erasers, ink and do lettering by hand. Maintaining art supplies was a tedious task and ctrl-z was a bitch back then. That's all great stuff, I enjoyed it and that was something I could have made a career out of but it no longer really exists as a job. Traditional art is pretty much a hobby and it's fun to bust out the sketch pad and be physical, but I don't want to give up any of the digital tools or workflows that I have that I use to make things I never dreamed about when I was a kid just scratching on a piece of paper.
Did photography completely stop people from painting? Did it open up a whole new creative branch of story telling and artistic expression? Would we even have video games without the camera? Did it put those tools in the hands of more people? How much innovation would we have missed if we had shrieked and ran back into our dark holes the first time a camera flash went off. We're having this discussion, in this format because someone embraced something new and ran with it.
How much will it actually affect you, not whatever theoretical job you have in the future but you as a person. Am I still doing art? Yes. Am I still enjoying what I do, fuck yea. Do I worry that will ever be taken from me? No. I will always be a creative person even if I use some other job to put a roof over my head. What if it all went away and all I had was my finger and some dirt, would that stop me from doodling?
When do we cap off automation? Fire up the punch cards I'm ready to make a game! Wait no those are flammable... Should we throw away IK and animate only in FK? Should we toss out bones, morphs and constraints? Meh, who needs expressive facial animation. I mean that's dangerous automation that stole someones job. Somewhere out there is a vertex animator that really would like to have their old job back. Now they have to use all of that automation to make cool shit they never could have dreamed of doing.
Take a deep breath and get real with the situation The more we know about something the more comfortable we are with it and the more likely we are to accept it. If AI makes you nervous, go read about it. Figure out how it works, ways to work with it or around it. Instead of saying "oh shit a robot is going to steal my job" how about you team up with that robot to do something you couldn't do before?
Be real about the timeline and what it can actually do given it's limitations. If the "end of the world" is based on several large leaps that haven't been taken then maybe we're not as close as some people think.
@Blaizer Please read my comments more carefully... I have never written
memory is only visual, so I wont go into much detail on your first
section. But it is not possible for our imagination to create something
from nothing. And neither is it possible to imagine the void. The concept ? yes. The void? no. There are
strong limitations to our imagination and all we know and memorize is
based on our collective past experiences. All I wanted to emphasize
when writing about human memories is the strong relation between the
process of creativity and the process of solving problems. I dont see any reason, why AI could not achieve creative problem solving like humans do. Creativity is based on logic. It still follows the same rules as everything else in our world.
Of course completely mapping human intelligence is a goal in AI research that is still far away, because it makes much more sense to focus on smaller scaled problems than programming an AI that has the same range of cognitive abilities as humans do. But like I previously said, AI research will certainly be advancing rapidly in the next decades and it will automate alot of use cases, even those that we can not think of yet. In my opinion it is naive to think that AI is just science fiction. Many AI's are already able to intelligently, yes intelligently, choose what is simply the best solution to the problem. Intelligently because based on knowledge, based on evaluation, based on memories and experiences, based on abomination and randomness, based on reasoning.
Does that mean we should "idealize AI like a god in a past era" like you say people do? no we shouldnt and I dont know anyone who does tbh. Should we demonize AI and act like it is not possible to achieve technology that is more capable and maybe even more intelligent than humans? No we shouldnt
My take on it is that a lot of the celebration of our future AI overlords is probably coming from AI researchers and related companies looking to cash in on the hype.
Here's a writeup from some AI conference that happened this week:
Yoshua Bengio, director of Mila, an AI institute in Montreal, recently shared the highest prize in computing
with two other researchers for starting the deep learning revolution.
But he noted that the technique yields highly specialized results; a
system trained to show superhuman performance at one videogame is
incapable of playing any other.
(...)
The cautionary keynotes at NeurIPS come at a time when investment in AI
has never been higher. Venture capitalists sunk nearly $40 billion into
AI and machine learning companies in 2018, according to Pitchbook,
roughly twice the figure in 2017.
Replies
Our mind is not limited just to visual info. Each person has a reality, and not all people see and feel the world in the same way. Our mind can "transform" our memories to create new ones, and it's a very complex thing we still don't know how it works. We can develop false memories aswell. There's also a part on the brain that creates memories from nothing, like i said before, "like from the void". Dreams are another thing we still don't understand. Some people can fly super fast or float in dreams, but they never experienced it. Others talk about other worlds in dreams, astral things, etc. Our brain is still a mistery, and it's said we have a whole cosmos in our brain.
In a far far future, the AI might think like us -it's pure speculation-, but only if we could translate -100%- into maths the way our mind works. But in fact, we do know nothing. And that's the problem with AI. All we can do are simple things like collect data and program a set of rules. And we are surprised with big data analytics? me not.
For me, AI is overvalued, idealized like a god in a past era. It's like people were replacing religion for AI and Smartphones. And in fact, actual AI is limited by us, by our limited knowledge. And tech is limited by physics. Sooner or later, we could not advance anymore, and one proof is in computer parts. All has an end, a limit.
When i said that about atoms, i was referring to the concept, because... can you see an atom? no, you can't. You know the idea of atom because someone teached you the concept with "words", but you never questioned that idea or memory. Greeks introduced the concept "atom", and they never saw anything. Did they have any kind of "memory" to imagine the concept of atoms?, no, they didn't. The idea or concept of "infinite", "void" is another example, did you experience anything in order to create a "memory"? Well, you can imagine the rest
Like i said before, we just can play with some mathemathical logic to program a software that will make decissions according to a set of rules (fuzzy logic
Man, if we still have issues with beveling algorithms in all 3D apps.
I think you are also plain wrong, thinking in a irrational way, and not being realistic with all the facts and limitations we have (and they are there you know, but irrationally, "we dream we can achieve the sun" and that's impossible). I think you are just "dreaming" with AI advances. AI is overrated, and in any case, it would be a part of the future for automating processes, like advanced robotics, advanced materials manufacturing, etc. Ai as it is now, with actual AI we can't achieve much more, ask Alexa, she's dumb and useless, she only execute known vocal commands. We can refine the AI to work smoother, and with less issues, but ask Alexa about the "feeling" of white color.
This remember me what i was said by my teacher at engineering, using the lathe and milling machine: "People think the machines will do all, but you need to introduce the correct mathemathical algorithm to do the job, you must add your brain"
Now people think machines will have a brain... I blame the films! too much imagination.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events
When people don't understand something they tend to fear it and think worst case scenario. It helped keep us safe when we where huddled around a campfire at night or when we where sizing up some new animal tracks that we had never seen before. It could be dangerous, avoid it.
We got that way because the cautious ones survived. Self preservation is probably a good trait to have but we need to temper that with what is actually happening, how fast it is happening and what the end results might be.
Automation isn't new.
People have always dealt with it and always will. I'm very thankful I don't have to use pencils and erasers, ink and do lettering by hand. Maintaining art supplies was a tedious task and ctrl-z was a bitch back then. That's all great stuff, I enjoyed it and that was something I could have made a career out of but it no longer really exists as a job. Traditional art is pretty much a hobby and it's fun to bust out the sketch pad and be physical, but I don't want to give up any of the digital tools or workflows that I have that I use to make things I never dreamed about when I was a kid just scratching on a piece of paper.
Did photography completely stop people from painting? Did it open up a whole new creative branch of story telling and artistic expression? Would we even have video games without the camera? Did it put those tools in the hands of more people? How much innovation would we have missed if we had shrieked and ran back into our dark holes the first time a camera flash went off. We're having this discussion, in this format because someone embraced something new and ran with it.
How much will it actually affect you, not whatever theoretical job you have in the future but you as a person.
Am I still doing art? Yes. Am I still enjoying what I do, fuck yea. Do I worry that will ever be taken from me? No. I will always be a creative person even if I use some other job to put a roof over my head. What if it all went away and all I had was my finger and some dirt, would that stop me from doodling?
When do we cap off automation?
Fire up the punch cards I'm ready to make a game! Wait no those are flammable...
Should we throw away IK and animate only in FK?
Should we toss out bones, morphs and constraints? Meh, who needs expressive facial animation.
I mean that's dangerous automation that stole someones job. Somewhere out there is a vertex animator that really would like to have their old job back. Now they have to use all of that automation to make cool shit they never could have dreamed of doing.
Take a deep breath and get real with the situation
The more we know about something the more comfortable we are with it and the more likely we are to accept it. If AI makes you nervous, go read about it. Figure out how it works, ways to work with it or around it. Instead of saying "oh shit a robot is going to steal my job" how about you team up with that robot to do something you couldn't do before?
Be real about the timeline and what it can actually do given it's limitations. If the "end of the world" is based on several large leaps that haven't been taken then maybe we're not as close as some people think.
All I wanted to emphasize when writing about human memories is the strong relation between the process of creativity and the process of solving problems. I dont see any reason, why AI could not achieve creative problem solving like humans do.
Creativity is based on logic. It still follows the same rules as everything else in our world.
Of course completely mapping human intelligence is a goal in AI research that is still far away, because it makes much more sense to focus on smaller scaled problems than programming an AI that has the same range of cognitive abilities as humans do.
But like I previously said, AI research will certainly be advancing rapidly in the next decades and it will automate alot of use cases, even those that we can not think of yet. In my opinion it is naive to think that AI is just science fiction. Many AI's are already able to intelligently, yes intelligently, choose what is simply the best solution to the problem. Intelligently because based on knowledge, based on evaluation, based on memories and experiences, based on abomination and randomness, based on reasoning.