@JordanN They zone out because nobody wants to hear about normal maps and topology, not because of low IQ
I've been thinking about this for a week and I have to disagree.
I don't want to sound like an elitist, nor do I actually think most people are "low IQ" but in all my life, I can't name a single person close to me who ever held a conversation that related to art.
The reason I say this is because the inverse isn't true. When I talk to doctors, I'm happy to hear what they have to say about medicine/biology. When I meet Cashiers/Retail Associates, I could converse with them about the Retail workplace and the prangs of dealing with customers.
Even in fields I have no immediate knowledge on, like I use to work with a guy who was a Car mechanic, again, we could have back and forth conversations with cars.
But when the subject of art comes up, it's resounding dead silence. And personally, I find it horrifying given this is what my life career is about. It sucks that I put all my blood and energy into this, but when I actually bring up what I do in real life, the conversation immediately stops.
And I know you might say "3D art is a technical thing", but then so is being an Engineer, Doctor, Store manager. They all involve some level of complexity. But holding a conversation that I want to make art for living, just ends in dead stares.
The only time I did feel comfortable holding an art conversation was when I did go for an job art interview. But even then, not even the art leads I was talking to felt interested after a minute I tried going into specifics.
@JordanN They zone out because nobody wants to hear about normal maps and topology, not because of low IQ
I don't want to sound like an elitist, nor do I actually think most people are "low IQ" but in all my life, I can't name a single person close to me who ever held a conversation that related to art
Would that be art related too video games or visual art in general?
...if the former, then of course you'd be met with a glazed stare, wouldn't take a genius to work that one out because not everyone is nerdy like us
Would that be art related too video games or visual art in general?
...if the former, then of course you'd be met with a glazed stare, wouldn't take a genius to work that one out because not everyone is nerdy like us
I find both to be hard to have a conversation with.
Everywhere I go, people always ask me "what do I do for a living". I tell them it's "3D art" which leads to vacant stares. Even when I try and make connections to video games or movie production, I feel it makes the situation worse. I'm not actually writing movies or developing games, but merely providing the art content for them.
Since most of my life is about creating visual content for other people to see, it makes me feel really depressed that I can't actually discuss this process with other people, even though I mentioned Doctors and Engineers being technical professions doesn't stop them from enjoying ordinary lives. Saying I'm a 3D artist ALWAYS requires me to explain it. No one will quite accept that I'm spending most of my days modeling and texturing.
@JordanN They zone out because nobody wants to hear about normal maps and topology, not because of low IQ
I've been thinking about this for a week and I have to disagree.
I don't want to sound like an elitist, nor do I actually think most people are "low IQ" but in all my life, I can't name a single person close to me who ever held a conversation that related to art.
The reason I say this is because the inverse isn't true. When I talk to doctors, I'm happy to hear what they have to say about medicine/biology. When I meet Cashiers/Retail Associates, I could converse with them about the Retail workplace and the prangs of dealing with customers.
Even in fields I have no immediate knowledge on, like I use to work with a guy who was a Car mechanic, again, we could have back and forth conversations with cars.
But when the subject of art comes up, it's resounding dead silence. And personally, I find it horrifying given this is what my life career is about. It sucks that I put all my blood and energy into this, but when I actually bring up what I do in real life, the conversation immediately stops.
And I know you might say "3D art is a technical thing", but then so is being an Engineer, Doctor, Store manager. They all involve some level of complexity. But holding a conversation that I want to make art for living, just ends in dead stares.
The only time I did feel comfortable holding an art conversation was when I did go for an job art interview. But even then, not even the art leads I was talking to felt interested after a minute I tried going into specifics.
It has to do with that normal people have a connection to car mechanics, doctors, store managers etc, you drive your car and you go to the doctor and you buy stuff in the store, as for games and 3d art the average person has no experience or knowledge about how it's made, and you don't need or get that information when playing games, in the future we might just step into machines when we are sick and get instantly fixed without any sort of information, the kids that grow up with that wouldn't be able to understand or hold a conversation with a doctor.
Also we get so much information about all of these professions from tv shows etc, maybe we just need more game dev reality shows .
If you were referring more to that people are not interested in the topic I think it mainly has to do with that 90% think that game art is made by programmers, and as for artists I guess we are just more interested in the results rather then a technical conversation, especially if they are seniors and leads and they already know the rights and wrongs.
Would that be art related too video games or visual art in general?
...if the former, then of course you'd be met with a glazed stare, wouldn't take a genius to work that one out because not everyone is nerdy like us
I find both to be hard to have a conversation with.
Everywhere I go, people always ask me "what do I do for a living". I tell them it's "3D art" which leads to vacant stares. Even when I try and make connections to video games or movie production, I feel it makes the situation worse. I'm not actually writing movies or developing games, but merely providing the art content for them.
Since most of my life is about creating visual content for other people to see, it makes me feel really depressed that I can't actually discuss this process with other people, even though I mentioned Doctors and Engineers being technical professions doesn't stop them from enjoying ordinary lives. Saying I'm a 3D artist ALWAYS requires me to explain it. No one will quite accept that I'm spending most of my days modeling and texturing.
I think the big difference is that many of these professions either have physical components, or are relatively understood by the general public either through enough exposure or pop culture or whatever. I'm sure we have this problem in common with other professions, say anyone in city government for example. Most people would understand at a basic level, but aren't really *that* interested in their average workday. I'm sure some of it plays into IQ, but there's also interest and relateability.
Also, compare any speed modeling video to a similar one for glassblowing or woodworking (or even painting/sculpting). In 3D, most of what we do is thinking ahead and working in abstract levels, and important phases happen in the blink of an eye, there's also little to no context to someone with no knowledge of 3d. But with the other crafts, the videos generally easy to follow and understand at a very physical connect-the-dots kind of level.
We also live in a world that values artists in strange ways. Sure it can be lonely, but don't get down about it
I find both to be hard to have a conversation with.
Everywhere I go, people always ask me "what do I do for a living". I tell them it's "3D art" which leads to vacant stares. Even when I try and make connections to video games or movie production, I feel it makes the situation worse. I'm not actually writing movies or developing games, but merely providing the art content for them.
Since most of my life is about creating visual content for other people to see, it makes me feel really depressed that I can't actually discuss this process with other people, even though I mentioned Doctors and Engineers being technical professions doesn't stop them from enjoying ordinary lives. Saying I'm a 3D artist ALWAYS requires me to explain it. No one will quite accept that I'm spending most of my days modeling and texturing.
Hmm...well I'll suggest try dropping the 3D bit and leaving it at just plain Artist.
Similarly to what others have said I do think simply boils down to the unrelatable/unfamiliar technicalities, in terms of the process we as digital artists generate content which actually stands to reason if you put yourself in a layman's shoes, how indeed can one even hope too convey conversationally with any degree of clarity our particular skillset. Whereas talking about art in broad generalities with someone will elicit a more positive response via their own personal experiences, perhaps drawing upon childhood memories or an art gallery/museum excursion or Books/TV/Movies/Pop Culture...etc
... "what do I do for a living" .... providing the art content for them ... No one will quite accept that I’m spending most of my days modeling and texturing ...
Do you also tell them you’re a “Senior Environment Artist” or “Art Director” like you tell the Artstation community?
Its like when I tell people I’m the Sorcerer Supreme and spend my days protecting the Earth from magical threats. Conversational dead end. No idea why.
Well that is indeed interesting, @JordanN have you finally snagged a studio gig? c'mon man cough up mit dem details, quick before @BIGTIMEMASTER clicks in.
Its like when I tell people I’m the Sorcerer Supreme and spend my days protecting the Earth from magical threats. Conversational dead end. No idea why.
I feel that would be an interesting conversation.
Not going to start on some atheist rant (puts fedora on), but peoples fundamental belief is an interesting question. If you question someone belief, then your likely to get some illogical statement or some appeal to emotion.
Similar to flat earther some of their reasoning is pretty interesting. For example, if the earth is moving why don't we feel it. That a deep scientific question. Why don't we see the curve of the earth? Each one has answers i.e. relativity, earth is really big.
Talking about normal maps isn't interesting at all.
Posts like what @Danr made isn't helping when it comes to how artists are viewed by the world. Especially when it comes to the very sensitive issue of how artists in the industry are treated and even viewed as "disposable" when we're not.
I do believe being an artist should still carry some agency. It matters because it becomes impossible to separate real life interactions with that of pursing an art career.
One example off the top of my head, when I was working in retail, managers were always getting angry at me for when I politely requested I couldn't work extra days or holidays. My reason being I wanted time at home to work on my portfolio. They didn't understand what all this meant and I took the brunt for it.
So what did I do? I stopped taking my lunches. I stopped taking my breaks. On my cellphone and PS Vita, I downloaded as much game art/3D art resources and read them during this time.
Co-workers would come up to me and asked me what am I doing? This went on everyday until I finally left retail. It was miserable knowing I still did my best to talk to them about my future but nothing registered.
No, pulling people up on their chronic spluttering bullshit is actually helpful to how artists are perceived. And that includes the person it’s aimed at : transparent bullshit just doesn’t wash, so stop it, it doesn’t get you anywhere.
(Btw I”ll ignore the insinuation in your second sentence rather than doing what I should and telling you to “get to absolute fuck on a horse made of solid fuck and then to fuck right off when you get there after fucking the horse in it’s dripping fuckhole with a side order of double wank and shitchips”, because it’s clear you don’t really know what you’re saying or why you’re saying it, just ... typing.)
[edit for naughty language, with thanks to glen cullens sweary grandma]
Why do you follow me into every thread just to bad mouth me? I don't see this happen to any other Polycounter.
This is actually concerning given how aggressive your posting tone is ("I should and telling you to “get to absolute fuck and then to fuck right off when you get there”).
This is the kind of thing that gives millennials a bad rap, Jordan.
AFAIK, you have never worked in the game industry, and yet you already have a self-pity, us-vs-them mindset about it. Yes, corporations are evil, but they aren't stealing people and making them slaves. People sign contracts. You have the power.
Where ever you work -- at any level -- if you are weak people are going to take advantage of you. But what do you think is a more realistic approach? The entire world becoming soft and fair, or you -- a single person -- getting tough? You've got to have some level of resiliency, even in 2018. You need to get tough.
This is the kind of thing that gives millennials a bad rap, Jordan.
AFAIK, you have never worked in the game industry, and yet you already have a self-pity, us-vs-them mindset about it.
Who is "us vs them"?
If you mean "me vs my retail managers" then it was absolutely one sided. Like I mentioned, I was scolded for wanting to pursue an art career instead of being forced to work extra days just to give the store more money that I never saw.
I never wanted to be taken advantage of, but when your job is literally the only thing separating you from starving to death, what choice did I have?
You are not an ant. Bring you perspective up from the ground level, so that you don't miss my points.
Look, you want respect, just get your work done, and get it done as well as you can. If you feel insecure about it, do it again. Don't be lazy. I see you posted your big scene on artstation, but not here. Why not? Don't you want to gauge responses, and see what you might improve?
Above all, if you want respect you have to show competence. So forget whatever people are saying, and focus on your work. The respect will come. When you fully focus on your work, then you will not be focused on your ego, your insecurities, whatever. Make the work your god, and worship it like a monk.
You are not an ant. Bring you perspective up from the ground level, so that you don't miss my points.
Look, you want respect, just get your work done, and get it done as well as you can. If you feel insecure about it, do it again. Don't be lazy. I see you posted your big scene on artstation, but not here. Why not? Don't you want to gauge responses, and see what you might improve?
Unfortunately, I'm in a bit of a crunch. There's a lot going on that I can't answer your question right now.
This thread wasn't actually suppose to be about me, and I don't want any personal information of mine to be taken out of context (the subject of "lazy" I find to be incredibly hurtful).
Didn't say you are lazy. And nobody here want's to know your personal details either. Just post your art. Get advice. Make improvements. You won't get a job with professionals who aren't assholes by begging or eliciting pity. If somebody says, "your art fucking sucks," ignore the tone and style, and just look for the useful information. Nobody can hurt you with words, that's all in your own mind.
People are down on you, prove them wrong. Develop some fighting spirit. Don't just roll over and die.
Whatever injustice you think you have faced, I can almost guarantee you I've had it worse. If not me, somebody else. It's all besides the point. You need a job in 3d, what are you doing to get there? That is all that matters.
I'd argue people are genuinely interested in art, including video game art, they just don't want to know the specifics. If a painter tried talking to me about how they mixed their paint, or what type of canvas they used, I'd glaze over as well. I'm sure if you pulled out your phone and just showed people cool video game art you've created, people wouldn't lose interest. If they do lose interest, you've got to create better art.
Jordan, when you were "downloading and reading game art" on your cellphone and not taking breaks thats the same as procrastinating, except you are doing it at a job. Doing art is different than reading shit\ "gathering references"...
So you congratulate someone who verbally harasses another person?
Why would you support such toxic position?
I don't attack people on Polycount. I may disagree, but I don't ever say stuff like this:
"“get to absolute fuck and then to fuck right off when you get there”"
Toxic behavior should not exist. People in power don't have the right to harass and abuse employees or anyone. We see stories leaked from the industry meant to condemn this. No one should be cheering on those people in power who abuse people.
Look at John Lasseter or John Kricfalusi. Evil men who used their industry status to harass and destroy other artists. They have since been caught and removed from the limelight.
So why do we support this behavior on Polycount given all the negativity that surrounds it?
All this hostility is out of pocket, i guess someone was having a bad day and decided to take it out on a random user. I don't have a stance on what is being discussed but the way this thread escalated is completely idiotic, it was a funny thread about iq. And bigtime i've seen you say some stupid stuff on here and you never got insulted as bad as jordan. danr you have a problem, im not sure if you lack social skills or you like to feel tough online and i doubt you would say things like this to him in person.
Jordan, when you were "downloading and reading game art" on your cellphone and not taking breaks thats the same as procrastinating, except you are doing it at a job. Doing art is different than reading shit\ "gathering references"...
So he is procrastinating because he didnt bring his pc into work to practice modeling during the break?
Jordan, when you were "downloading and reading game art" on your cellphone and not taking breaks thats the same as procrastinating, except you are doing it at a job. Doing art is different than reading shit\ "gathering references"...
So he is procrastinating because he didnt bring his pc into work to practice modeling during the break?
You're probably new here and don't understand the dynamic (and that is fine), but nah, it's because he's a living, breathing, gaping cavern of procrastination. He's been doing the same thing for years, waxing poetic on the finer points of theory while making excuses for why he isn't actually, you know, doing art, getting better, powering through. And now he's here taking a woe is me, woe is us, "feel bad for the tortured souls" stance and has the nerve to lecture people on how artists are undervalued or disposable, when he's not an artist nor is he in the industry, he's just a guy on the internet looking for attention.
I genuinely don't think he realizes how insulting this is to people who do art for a living. He just likes to pretend and is misguided, naive, and has trouble understanding contextual relationships and how these things apply to him (or rather: don't).
Being naive isn't a problem per se, but this game gets old. @danr is one of the few that have the energy to call out Jordan's nonsense. At some point someone needs to tell the starry eyed kids to stop messing about and get to work, and Jordan has been told (very politely) too many times to count.
Jordan, for the millionth time, stop posting in these dumb ass threads and get back to work. I say this without malice or ill-intent, purely because I know that this is what you need to do to get through whatever it is you're struggling with. This post is blunt, not to insult you, but so that you can understand how you are perceived, which is very important if you intend to make a career out of this some day.
This is Danr's quote unedited. How can anyone call this advice?
""“get to absolute fuck and then to fuck right off when you get there”"
I take toxicity in the industry seriously, as there was a previous incident on Polycount where someone had threatened me with physical violence, even when I was working on art.
All I'm saying is no one should be celebrating this. If I've never threatened violence or verbal harassment, why would someone who works in the industry get to do so? Does it not make the stories of harassment coming out look strange if we somehow accept it?
When I see a person who seems like they need help, I just can't help myself.
But, in this case, I think there is a fundamental issue that cannot be overcome without professional help. There is a recurring loop in the program, and it's going to take some serious doing to break the cycle.
Anyway, I'll just ignore and stay away from Jordan, so I don't contribute to anymore downward spirals.
@JordanN They zone out because nobody wants to hear about normal maps and topology, not because of low IQ
I've been thinking about this for a week and I have to disagree.
I don't want to sound like an elitist, nor do I actually think most people are "low IQ" but in all my life, I can't name a single person close to me who ever held a conversation that related to art.
You know regarding this, I gotta say, I do this for a living and I don't like having conversations about art. Not just generally speaking anyway.
I mean, I like having other artists available to ask questions, get some ideas, or problem solve. If I'm at work I don't mind chatting with a coworker about how we might handle this or that and why, or helping someone with a technique they've not used before, or reach out to my art director/coworkers with specific critique I'm looking for...I'll get my wife's opinion on something specific sometimes. But just like, general "art" conversation? Fuuuuuuuuuck that. It's got to have specific purpose with a practical goal for the conversation or else I just do not give a shit.
I have noticed a trend over the past several years and, more often than not, my favorite artists/coworkers are the ones who talk the least about art. They just make the art and let it do the talking. The other folks? Goddamn can't just sit and watch a movie. I'll be trying to watch the Avengers or some shit and they just cannot stop talking about how difficult such and such scene would be to animate, or how they're having an artgasm over this CG compared to X movie from Y years ago, or how underappreciated the artists who worked on the movie probably are - and I'm just like, can we please just shut the fuck up and watch Hulk smash?
I do not generally have similar issues with engineers or store clerks.
Also my IQ is probably shit. I am afraid that if I find out otherwise it will be sent to the government and I will wind up on a list of potential dangers/people to kidnap/people to give wedgies.
This is Danr's quote unedited. How can anyone call this advice?
""“get to absolute fuck and then to fuck right off when you get there”"
I take toxicity in the industry seriously, as there was a previous incident on Polycount where someone had threatened me with physical violence, even when I was working on art.
All I'm saying is no one should be celebrating this. If I've never threatened violence or verbal harassment, why would someone who works in the industry get to do so? Does it not make the stories of harassment coming out look strange if we somehow accept it?
If you do not understand that you and your actions are the common thread between any and all rudeness directed towards you on this website, you are delusional. Certainly it would be nice if people were nicer to each other on the internet, but if various people are being rude to one person, and those people get alone with everyone else, and this is consistent behavior, over the course of many years, you need to look at the source.
As far as toxicity in the industry goes, you do not have any personal experience nor specialized knowledge of these problems. Reading an internet article does not make you an export. Do not use this issue as a shield to hide your own deficiencies, it is extremely petty and disrespectful. All you're managing to do here is belittle people who have genuine problems.
If you do not understand that you and your actions are the common thread between any and all rudeness directed towards you on this website, you are delusional. Certainly it would be nice if people were nicer to each other on the internet, but if various people are being rude to one person, consistently, over the course of many years, you need to look at the source.
I've never claimed to be perfect, but it is wrong to claim stating an opinion is the equivalent to physically harming a person.
In the court of law, do you believe an attacker would be excused because the other guy was "asking for it"? It doesn't matter how much you dislike a person based on their looks and personality, you still wouldn't have the right to harm them.
As far as toxicity in the industry goes, you do not have any personal experience nor specialized knowledge of these problems. Reading an internet article does not make you an export. Do not use this issue as a shield to hide your own deficiencies, it is extremely petty and disrespectful. All you're managing to do here is belittle people who have genuine problems.
Why do you think these articles exist? To confirm what does happen behind closed doors where anyone could lie or cover up such incidents. It is based around multiple collaborations and in specific cases like John K or Lasseter, they either failed to prove their innocence or outright attacked those who brought charges against them. That is not disrespect, but reporting years of abuse that never got the attention it deserved.
If you do not understand that you and your actions are the common thread between any and all rudeness directed towards you on this website, you are delusional. Certainly it would be nice if people were nicer to each other on the internet, but if various people are being rude to one person, consistently, over the course of many years, you need to look at the source.
I've never claimed to be perfect, but it is wrong to claim stating an opinion is the equivalent to physically harming a person.
In the court of law, do you believe an attacker would be excused because the other guy was "asking for it"? It doesn't matter how much you dislike a person based on their looks and personality, you still wouldn't have the right to harm them.
As far as toxicity in the industry goes, you do not have any personal experience nor specialized knowledge of these problems. Reading an internet article does not make you an export. Do not use this issue as a shield to hide your own deficiencies, it is extremely petty and disrespectful. All you're managing to do here is belittle people who have genuine problems.
Why do you think these articles exist? To confirm what does happen behind closed doors where anyone could lie or cover up such incidents. It is based around multiple collaborations and in specific cases like John K or Lasseter, they either failed to prove their innocence or outright attacked those who brought charges against them. That is not disrespect, but reporting years of abuse that never got the attention it deserved.
Jesus fuck Jordan. Is this what you really want out of life? To ramble incoherently, getting in endless, frivolous debates with people who are potential employers and coworkers? Is this the best use of your time, the ideal way you can think to interact on this website?
These are rhetorical questions of course. Please, for your own sake, just stop and think about your choices. Close the web browser. Let it process. Learn to let the little things go so they don't build up into big things that will fester and follow you through your career. Find your happy place or whatever you need to be productive and move forward.
Jesus fuck Jordan. Is this what you really want out of life? To ramble incoherently, getting in endless, frivolous debates with people who are potential employers and coworkers? Is this the best use of your time, the ideal way you can think to interact on this website?
These are rhetorical questions of course. Please, for your own sake, just stop and think about your choices. Close the web browser. Let it process. Learn to let the little things go so they don't build up into big things that will fester and follow you through your career. Find your happy place or whatever you need to be productive and move forward.
It is not meant to be a debate. I'm asking you why are you ok with verbal harassment with another user praising it? If you really believe this line is advice you need to point out how.
"""“get to absolute fuck and then to fuck right off when you get there”""
Being ok with this is no different than harassment that does exist elsewhere.
Jesus fuck Jordan. Is this what you really want out of life? To ramble incoherently, getting in endless, frivolous debates with people who are potential employers and coworkers? Is this the best use of your time, the ideal way you can think to interact on this website?
These are rhetorical questions of course. Please, for your own sake, just stop and think about your choices. Close the web browser. Let it process. Learn to let the little things go so they don't build up into big things that will fester and follow you through your career. Find your happy place or whatever you need to be productive and move forward.
It is not meant to be a debate. I'm asking you why are you ok with verbal harassment with another user praising it? If you really believe this line is advice you need to point out how.
"""“get to absolute fuck and then to fuck right off when you get there”""
Being ok with this is no different than harassment that does exist elsewhere.
Jordan, I am not your grade school teacher. My purpose is not to put people in time out every time they are mean to you. We're adults here, you need to handle your own shit before worrying about others. I can scold danr for using naughty language but where does that get us? I'll just have to do the same the next time someone is rude to you. This is a pattern of behavior, and you are the source. You're what moderators all over the internet refer to as a troll-magnet, you're red hot flame bait. The sooner you realize this, the better experience you will have on this website and others.
Can you, just this once, try introspection instead of argument and consider your role here? Not because you owe it to me or anyone else, but simply because you have the dignity, self respect, and will power to do so.
I think what you're doing is deflecting! Personally I haven't been on polycount all too often so I must've missed some drama but EQ's post already rings true , about that "Woe is me" part.
You're so hung up on that quote that you had to quote it thrice and are missing the points of the other posts.
Then I want to reach out to some developers to confirm this.
Because I can't think of a context where it's ok to tell someone to "fuck right off" when the original conversation wasn't even between this person. Or imagine if I had said this? Would the reaction be the same?
Replies
I don't want to sound like an elitist, nor do I actually think most people are "low IQ" but in all my life, I can't name a single person close to me who ever held a conversation that related to art.
The reason I say this is because the inverse isn't true. When I talk to doctors, I'm happy to hear what they have to say about medicine/biology. When I meet Cashiers/Retail Associates, I could converse with them about the Retail workplace and the prangs of dealing with customers.
Even in fields I have no immediate knowledge on, like I use to work with a guy who was a Car mechanic, again, we could have back and forth conversations with cars.
But when the subject of art comes up, it's resounding dead silence. And personally, I find it horrifying given this is what my life career is about. It sucks that I put all my blood and energy into this, but when I actually bring up what I do in real life, the conversation immediately stops.
And I know you might say "3D art is a technical thing", but then so is being an Engineer, Doctor, Store manager. They all involve some level of complexity. But holding a conversation that I want to make art for living, just ends in dead stares.
The only time I did feel comfortable holding an art conversation was when I did go for an job art interview. But even then, not even the art leads I was talking to felt interested after a minute I tried going into specifics.
That big scene you've been working on -- finished -- will get a better reaction, I'm sure. Nothing else matters!
Would that be art related too video games or visual art in general?
...if the former, then of course you'd be met with a glazed stare, wouldn't take a genius to work that one out because not everyone is nerdy like us
Everywhere I go, people always ask me "what do I do for a living". I tell them it's "3D art" which leads to vacant stares.
Even when I try and make connections to video games or movie production, I feel it makes the situation worse. I'm not actually writing movies or developing games, but merely providing the art content for them.
Since most of my life is about creating visual content for other people to see, it makes me feel really depressed that I can't actually discuss this process with other people, even though I mentioned Doctors and Engineers being technical professions doesn't stop them from enjoying ordinary lives. Saying I'm a 3D artist ALWAYS requires me to explain it. No one will quite accept that I'm spending most of my days modeling and texturing.
I don't talk shop outside work, or online communities like this one. It's universal I think.
Like, have you ever tried talking with an IT person about their work? Oh gawd kill me now.
Also we get so much information about all of these professions from tv shows etc, maybe we just need more game dev reality shows
If you were referring more to that people are not interested in the topic I think it mainly has to do with that 90% think that game art is made by programmers, and as for artists I guess we are just more interested in the results rather then a technical conversation, especially if they are seniors and leads and they already know the rights and wrongs.
Also, compare any speed modeling video to a similar one for glassblowing or woodworking (or even painting/sculpting). In 3D, most of what we do is thinking ahead and working in abstract levels, and important phases happen in the blink of an eye, there's also little to no context to someone with no knowledge of 3d. But with the other crafts, the videos generally easy to follow and understand at a very physical connect-the-dots kind of level.
We also live in a world that values artists in strange ways. Sure it can be lonely, but don't get down about it
JordanN said:
I find both to be hard to have a conversation with.
Everywhere I go, people always ask me "what do I do for a living". I tell them it's "3D art" which leads to vacant stares.
Even when I try and make connections to video games or movie production, I feel it makes the situation worse. I'm not actually writing movies or developing games, but merely providing the art content for them.
Since most of my life is about creating visual content for other people to see, it makes me feel really depressed that I can't actually discuss this process with other people, even though I mentioned Doctors and Engineers being technical professions doesn't stop them from enjoying ordinary lives. Saying I'm a 3D artist ALWAYS requires me to explain it. No one will quite accept that I'm spending most of my days modeling and texturing.
Hmm...well I'll suggest try dropping the 3D bit and leaving it at just plain Artist.
Similarly to what others have said I do think simply boils down to the unrelatable/unfamiliar technicalities, in terms of the process we as digital artists generate content which actually stands to reason if you put yourself in a layman's shoes, how indeed can one even hope too convey conversationally with any degree of clarity our particular skillset. Whereas talking about art in broad generalities with someone will elicit a more positive response via their own personal experiences, perhaps drawing upon childhood memories or an art gallery/museum excursion or Books/TV/Movies/Pop Culture...etc
Do you also tell them you’re a “Senior Environment Artist” or “Art Director” like you tell the Artstation community?
Its like when I tell people I’m the Sorcerer Supreme and spend my days protecting the Earth from magical threats. Conversational dead end. No idea why.
Not going to start on some atheist rant (puts fedora on), but peoples fundamental belief is an interesting question. If you question someone belief, then your likely to get some illogical statement or some appeal to emotion.
Similar to flat earther some of their reasoning is pretty interesting. For example, if the earth is moving why don't we feel it. That a deep scientific question. Why don't we see the curve of the earth?
Each one has answers i.e. relativity, earth is really big.
Talking about normal maps isn't interesting at all.
I do believe being an artist should still carry some agency. It matters because it becomes impossible to separate real life interactions with that of pursing an art career.
One example off the top of my head, when I was working in retail, managers were always getting angry at me for when I politely requested I couldn't work extra days or holidays. My reason being I wanted time at home to work on my portfolio. They didn't understand what all this meant and I took the brunt for it.
So what did I do? I stopped taking my lunches. I stopped taking my breaks. On my cellphone and PS Vita, I downloaded as much game art/3D art resources and read them during this time.
Co-workers would come up to me and asked me what am I doing? This went on everyday until I finally left retail. It was miserable knowing I still did my best to talk to them about my future but nothing registered.
(Btw I”ll ignore the insinuation in your second sentence rather than doing what I should and telling you to “get to absolute fuck on a horse made of solid fuck and then to fuck right off when you get there after fucking the horse in it’s dripping fuckhole with a side order of double wank and shitchips”, because it’s clear you don’t really know what you’re saying or why you’re saying it, just ... typing.)
[edit for naughty language, with thanks to glen cullens sweary grandma]
This is actually concerning given how aggressive your posting tone is ("I should and telling you to “get to absolute fuck and then to fuck right off when you get there”).
AFAIK, you have never worked in the game industry, and yet you already have a self-pity, us-vs-them mindset about it. Yes, corporations are evil, but they aren't stealing people and making them slaves. People sign contracts. You have the power.
Where ever you work -- at any level -- if you are weak people are going to take advantage of you. But what do you think is a more realistic approach? The entire world becoming soft and fair, or you -- a single person -- getting tough? You've got to have some level of resiliency, even in 2018. You need to get tough.
If you mean "me vs my retail managers" then it was absolutely one sided. Like I mentioned, I was scolded for wanting to pursue an art career instead of being forced to work extra days just to give the store more money that I never saw.
I never wanted to be taken advantage of, but when your job is literally the only thing separating you from starving to death, what choice did I have?
Look, you want respect, just get your work done, and get it done as well as you can. If you feel insecure about it, do it again. Don't be lazy. I see you posted your big scene on artstation, but not here. Why not? Don't you want to gauge responses, and see what you might improve?
Above all, if you want respect you have to show competence. So forget whatever people are saying, and focus on your work. The respect will come. When you fully focus on your work, then you will not be focused on your ego, your insecurities, whatever. Make the work your god, and worship it like a monk.
Do you see a pattern in my advice to you?
This thread wasn't actually suppose to be about me, and I don't want any personal information of mine to be taken out of context (the subject of "lazy" I find to be incredibly hurtful).
People are down on you, prove them wrong. Develop some fighting spirit. Don't just roll over and die.
If there was a legal way to bring you the conversations, I would have done it so the proof is rock solid. But I can only retell my experience.
And it wasn't just managers. All the employees were like this. They always talk about and want to know each others lives.
I no longer work in retail so I do want to put this behind me. But even after leaving retail, I still encounter this behavior in the rest of life.
Whatever injustice you think you have faced, I can almost guarantee you I've had it worse. If not me, somebody else. It's all besides the point. You need a job in 3d, what are you doing to get there? That is all that matters.
@JordanN A word to the wise:
BIGTIMEMASTER said:
You need a job in 3d, what are you doing to get there? That is all that matters.
Oh!...BTW I'm still a dumbass, if that helps any :-)
I'd argue people are genuinely interested in art, including video game art, they just don't want to know the specifics. If a painter tried talking to me about how they mixed their paint, or what type of canvas they used, I'd glaze over as well. I'm sure if you pulled out your phone and just showed people cool video game art you've created, people wouldn't lose interest. If they do lose interest, you've got to create better art.
Also i love u @danr
Jordan, when you were "downloading and reading game art" on your cellphone and not taking breaks thats the same as procrastinating, except you are doing it at a job. Doing art is different than reading shit\ "gathering references"...
So you congratulate someone who verbally harasses another person?
Why would you support such toxic position?
I don't attack people on Polycount. I may disagree, but I don't ever say stuff like this:
"“get to absolute fuck and then to fuck right off when you get there”"
Toxic behavior should not exist. People in power don't have the right to harass and abuse employees or anyone. We see stories leaked from the industry meant to condemn this. No one should be cheering on those people in power who abuse people.
Look at John Lasseter or John Kricfalusi. Evil men who used their industry status to harass and destroy other artists. They have since been caught and removed from the limelight.
So why do we support this behavior on Polycount given all the negativity that surrounds it?
I genuinely don't think he realizes how insulting this is to people who do art for a living. He just likes to pretend and is misguided, naive, and has trouble understanding contextual relationships and how these things apply to him (or rather: don't).
Being naive isn't a problem per se, but this game gets old. @danr is one of the few that have the energy to call out Jordan's nonsense. At some point someone needs to tell the starry eyed kids to stop messing about and get to work, and Jordan has been told (very politely) too many times to count.
Jordan, for the millionth time, stop posting in these dumb ass threads and get back to work. I say this without malice or ill-intent, purely because I know that this is what you need to do to get through whatever it is you're struggling with. This post is blunt, not to insult you, but so that you can understand how you are perceived, which is very important if you intend to make a career out of this some day.
""“get to absolute fuck and then to fuck right off when you get there”"
I take toxicity in the industry seriously, as there was a previous incident on Polycount where someone had threatened me with physical violence, even when I was working on art.
All I'm saying is no one should be celebrating this. If I've never threatened violence or verbal harassment, why would someone who works in the industry get to do so? Does it not make the stories of harassment coming out look strange if we somehow accept it?
But, in this case, I think there is a fundamental issue that cannot be overcome without professional help. There is a recurring loop in the program, and it's going to take some serious doing to break the cycle.
Anyway, I'll just ignore and stay away from Jordan, so I don't contribute to anymore downward spirals.
As far as toxicity in the industry goes, you do not have any personal experience nor specialized knowledge of these problems. Reading an internet article does not make you an export. Do not use this issue as a shield to hide your own deficiencies, it is extremely petty and disrespectful. All you're managing to do here is belittle people who have genuine problems.
In the court of law, do you believe an attacker would be excused because the other guy was "asking for it"? It doesn't matter how much you dislike a person based on their looks and personality, you still wouldn't have the right to harm them.
Why do you think these articles exist? To confirm what does happen behind closed doors where anyone could lie or cover up such incidents.
It is based around multiple collaborations and in specific cases like John K or Lasseter, they either failed to prove their innocence or outright attacked those who brought charges against them. That is not disrespect, but reporting years of abuse that never got the attention it deserved.
These are rhetorical questions of course. Please, for your own sake, just stop and think about your choices. Close the web browser. Let it process. Learn to let the little things go so they don't build up into big things that will fester and follow you through your career. Find your happy place or whatever you need to be productive and move forward.
If you really believe this line is advice you need to point out how.
"""“get to absolute fuck and then to fuck right off when you get there”""
Being ok with this is no different than harassment that does exist elsewhere.
Jordan, I am not your grade school teacher. My purpose is not to put people in time out every time they are mean to you. We're adults here, you need to handle your own shit before worrying about others. I can scold danr for using naughty language but where does that get us? I'll just have to do the same the next time someone is rude to you. This is a pattern of behavior, and you are the source. You're what moderators all over the internet refer to as a troll-magnet, you're red hot flame bait. The sooner you realize this, the better experience you will have on this website and others.
Can you, just this once, try introspection instead of argument and consider your role here? Not because you owe it to me or anyone else, but simply because you have the dignity, self respect, and will power to do so.
I think what you're doing is deflecting!
Personally I haven't been on polycount all too often so I must've missed some drama but EQ's post already rings true , about that "Woe is me" part.
You're so hung up on that quote that you had to quote it thrice and are missing the points of the other posts.
Because I can't think of a context where it's ok to tell someone to "fuck right off" when the original conversation wasn't even between this person. Or imagine if I had said this? Would the reaction be the same?
Context is your post history.
If you ... er ... Christ alive ... if you actually read my response ... then ... actually, no. Just no.
Bloody hell
...
actually, you know what, I’m *still pissed off at jordann’s random accusation of undervaluing artists. Careful now