Why you're not getting any replies
admin
You've posted some nice artwork and asked for feedback, but no one seems to be offerring you any critiques. Why are they passing you by?
Someone asked me this in a private message. I thought it might help to share the response, and get more details from the community too.
I feel there are a couple factors at work here.
First off, there is a lot of traffic here, so there are a lot of things to look at, so not everything gets responses.
Next thing is, you might have a great initial post, but no follow-up posts. There are unfortunately a lot of people who post something, but thereafter they have no other interaction with the community. 1-post wonders.
Often these are seen by others as not worth the time to write a good solid critique, because it looks like a fly-by-night. You invest your time to write a good crit, but then hear nothing else from this person.
This doc describes a similar online community and why things are the way they are. Not exactly the same here, but shares a lot. Just replace "hackers" with "polycounters". Worth a read.
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro
I suggest posting regularly, updating your thread with new work. Show that you are proactive and steadily working on your art. Describe your process. Share your techniques. And give others solid critiques.
Involve yourself in the community, show you are invested in being here, and others are more likely to respond in turn. I think the axiom "give and ye shall recieve" is applicable.
There are a couple more factors at play. Hopefully others will chime in here with more info.
I hope this helps!
Someone asked me this in a private message. I thought it might help to share the response, and get more details from the community too.
I feel there are a couple factors at work here.
First off, there is a lot of traffic here, so there are a lot of things to look at, so not everything gets responses.
Next thing is, you might have a great initial post, but no follow-up posts. There are unfortunately a lot of people who post something, but thereafter they have no other interaction with the community. 1-post wonders.
Often these are seen by others as not worth the time to write a good solid critique, because it looks like a fly-by-night. You invest your time to write a good crit, but then hear nothing else from this person.
This doc describes a similar online community and why things are the way they are. Not exactly the same here, but shares a lot. Just replace "hackers" with "polycounters". Worth a read.
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro
I suggest posting regularly, updating your thread with new work. Show that you are proactive and steadily working on your art. Describe your process. Share your techniques. And give others solid critiques.
Involve yourself in the community, show you are invested in being here, and others are more likely to respond in turn. I think the axiom "give and ye shall recieve" is applicable.
There are a couple more factors at play. Hopefully others will chime in here with more info.
I hope this helps!
Replies
*Unless its some blizzard level stuff
I try and provide meaningful feedback when I have it as well. The bar for posts here can feel so high sometimes.
I love seeing from the start and the updates that follow. I love seeing the thought processes people go over from iteration to iteration. Seeing what works for the scene/piece and what doesn't and more importantly how others help to narrow the focus of the art. Making that all private to full artists would be a real shame.
Yeah, often there's times when I see something that someone's done and think "oh that's nice". But just posting a comment like that would seem a bit spammy!
But yeah, just getting a reply to something you've posted does feel like an achievement in itself!
Scifi Hallway
just Another Scifi hallway - self depreciating thread titles like these are brutal, its screams dont bother looking in here.
scifi corridor 01
grungy alleyway
etc etc
If you cant create even a compelling thread title that grabs people attention and cuts through the noise, dont be shocked when no one looks at your work. Im not saying you have to be amazing just give some thought to what you would click on if you were scrolling. even something like "deus ex style urban environment" or "star wars inspired character diorama" will probably get more eyeballs on them simple because there is context given and you are tying your work to something people are able to understand and are fans of.
if its something like a character instead of just "steampunk character" call your thread something like "Beware the victorian leigon! - a steampunk inspired bounty hunter" give it some life and attitude.
in the project writeup talk about why you are excited to do this piece instead of just posting a few images, give a clear objective and things you really want to learn/focus on. HELP ME....HELP YOU!
tl:dr - provide context, grab attention and cut through the noise.
Maybe the takeaway would be to come up with some more compelling subject matter.
From my experience with polycount lately, thread with title like "MY FUCKING SCI-FI HALLWAY" will definitely get you more traffic
HOWEVER — I get what you're saying. You want to reduce the number of people who always ask for help but never help anyone else. You want to avoid wasting time on the drive-by posters or those who ignore critique to a terminal extent. The better way to do that, I think, is simply to respond less to lazy questions, troll threads, and selfish users. Instead look for the threads with 0 replies from new users, or the ones you know give back and critique/help others. Obviously newbies won't be able to help others for awhile, so they get a pass.
The other reason it would be a bad idea for a private section is now suddenly you've got a fragmented forum with the 'serious contributors' ignoring public sections, so then the public section stagnates and dies, eventually dragging the private section with it. That is, if it doesn't die as soon as you open the can of worms over how you determine who is a 'serious contributor' and who isn't in the first place.
Some thoughtful insights expressed here. and If I may an additional observation or three on the topic.
(apologies if overlapping occurs
)
Null replies - Is actually a form of critique in and of itself, other than the viewpoints raised thus far. A further aspect for consideration I believe is acquiring an objective attitude too ones work. Human nature being what it is, we tend to invest a certain measure of personal capital in whatever captures our interest at the time. So by divesting a measure of subjectivity will empower an artist to discern where he/she can adjust their particular approach to hopefully entice traffic.
Be Polite - If fortunate in receipt of a reply, remember to be courteous whether a positive review is offered or not speaks volumes about the person behind a username. WIP sections primarily are places for learning, engaging the brain before hitting send negates a less than favourable experience for all parties concerned. In fact a kindred community I've a current membership with, as part of it's joining process enables the individual an option to remain anonymous or reveal personal details about themselves via their forum facing profile, such as name, location, profession etc. For those of us who've been around a while not always the case of course but generally when these policies are in place there's a tendency for a more civil exchange of views particularly when diversity is taken into account.
"Help!" - I see this thread title with monotonous regularity and I have to say more so of late than at anytime throughout my experience spent on the Surface-Web. Not really sure if associated with this irritating social media frenzy the young ones mainly are enraptured these days, resultant consequence a hastily shot off plea usually accompanied by scant information about a specific problem at hand immediately followed by a random *thx* plus to cap things off posting on the wrong board. Seriously in this instance reading the appropriate rules mitigates an abrupt response from a mod and/or senior member.
Proof Read - Always PREVIEW! ensuring importantly what was typed is for starters readible plus there's an attached image/s for people too crit to begin with. I know during the excitement or if English is not a first language can be problematic however pausing for breath or leveraging Google translator or better still asking a native speaker for help will often resolve the issue.
...lastly
Confidence - Don't be discouraged and give up at the 'f'irst hurdle', "easier said than done!" I'm hearing in the background
although as I mentioned above re-evaluate what you're trying to convey, ask for a fresh eye perspective. These communities are populated with artists who are approachable and willing to provide advice again if courtesy is extended. For example politely PM the person of who's work might have inspired or has a similarity to what you're endeavouring to do. After all this is an open forum along with all that entails, and even though putting your competence on public display regardless of proficiency is typically an impediment especially for novices, which to be perfectly frank vital for anyone too master in order to progress.
To be honest I'm not sure what you're getting at with your first paragraph. It's up to you to evaluate the crits you're given to decide if they're valid. Some people will take the person's work/job into account, other's won't. Doesn't bother me. I don't think I said anything about respect or some sort of art-skills food chain.
Hm. To be honest my impression is that the forum works this way now, minus the bit where pro's are encouraged/coerced (makes it sound like a job TBH) into giving crits. I think we're VERY, very lucky to get the expert opinions, tutorials, and level of dev interaction (marmo/alleg/quixel mainly) we do on these forums. (I'm not saying you don't think this; just that the current system is really quite marvelous).
Haha Wow. Maybe the chains and whips are to come, but it least it is a cellar and there's a "Story" to it.
Well if you can live with all the penis tanks... what am I saying?, more traffic and penis tanks, that's a win win!
rules for ryanb's super awsome coolest club;
1. only cool people allowed.
2. no dorks!
3. no moms!
4. no farting in the fort.
with that said, I dont think we can impose new rules or change anything to make that comeback, the forum is bigger, thats just a thing that happens. sorry for the of topic post, but I feel we end up here in a lot of threads now days.
I do hope there is something we can do about it though.
I know I've stumbled upon old threads which had great info but barely any views or replies, the most recent example I can think of would be Seth Nash's marvelous designer tutorial, it's fantastic.
http://polycount.com/discussion/178475/md-tutorial-pdf
(Edit: for those that might want to check out the tutorial as the links in the thread are bust https://www.artstation.com/artwork/w99GO )
Yet the thread has 3 replies (of which I'm one and Seth is the third :P ) and less than 300 views at the moment. Obviously this is a special case as it's not someone showcasing an art piece, but for threads of this nature where they may contain some really useful information to some it'd be great to get more eyes on em. One solution could perhaps be employing a temporary sticky for threads that are beneficial, whether it's an informative tutorial or an art piece with great breakdowns and explanations of processes. Like a thread of the day or week for example pinned to the top of the forum section it's in? Just a thought.
I know that this is already done to a degree with the front page being used to showcase highlighted threads, but based on my browsing habits at least it's rare that I don't just jump straight to the forum.
But yeah, I think it'd be great to highlight more things. Moderators can't see everything. We talked about maybe having a voting system for highlighting useful threads. Maybe it could be based off the (relatively) new + button. That would require a new site feature.
One thing people can do right now is use the Flag: Report button. This sends a link directly to the Moderators. We check this list about once a day or so. Mostly it's about moving threads, or solving disputes. But you can also use it to ask for a Front Page. Just don't ask for your own stuff to be Fronted, instant ignore haha.
I think one of the big problem is that we are starting to have a lot of "Here's my finished scene" thread. And people don't care much about them.. I mean if you wanna showcase ONLY the completed project, post on art station. Forum are made to discuss and help each others, that why thread with a lot of update and wip get so much more attention. Also like we all know there's the problem of non-implicit thread title.
I don't take a pro feature would help much either. Mostly anyone that live in a "rich" country can afford paying 10 bucks a month, doesn't mean they are good or invested in the forum. While skilled people from poorer country would be hide because they can't afford it.
We talk a while ago how you didn't want to create sub-forum category in the 3D portion, but i was thinking of a user category system.
Not sure if our forum platform allows it, but must regular platform group allow you to create user group and identify them with name color and special logo/banner. If it was possible to create group like "student - Character" "Student- VFX" "Student - Generalist" "hobbyist - animator" "pro" etc, and create a way to filter the thread by the user category would help. For example, if i wanted to see really great character art i could just make thread created by Pro character artist. If i would want to coach student I could filter post only made by students. Even easier we keep it to either only the kind of work your doing (animatino, vfx, concept artist) or only your rank " student, hobby, Pro, Senior"
It doesn't create that much of a gap, people enter the category by themselves (and if you want your exclusive, block the pro section with validation asking people where they are working) the section stay the same, maybe slightly more colorful. But it offer the possibility to filter what you see. A bit like how you're force to write in the welcome thread to be able to post anywhere else, just bigger.
Also people put to large images ALL the time. I can't load WAYWO at home or work because it times out. Both places are 100 mbps+
My interest has declined recently because of all the timeouts on the image cdn.
Post feedback in other peoples threads.
When you're an active and helpful member, people will remember and take note, and return the favour.
This is a community. Don't be a sponge.
It's just an idea, that I think is better then a secret club.
But this was brought up as an issue waaaay before the day I started lurking polycount to be honest. But it's an issue that has nothing to do with polycount itself, it's just how humans work, I'd say.
First of all, there is a reason why the term "click-bait" exists and second, if you realize that someone will 90% of the time post something that will be genuinely interesting (or in valuemeal etc. cases funny) or constructive like the average user here, most of the time you will want to see what was posted. If you open a thread and a person expresses no interest in feedback and has some ambiguous art on display, I won't answer because maybe I don't get what feedback I should give, be it due to my lack of knowledge in that topic (I find myself in this situation often), or where to start (something is posted that lacks even the basics of basics, what can I say there?)
Chiming in again.
The current conversation in respect too a private area for serious people to coalesce cordoned off from the masses sounds more than a tad elitist however it's ethos is not entirely without merit. If for example lets say a variant or rather a splinter group of experienced contributors, can be anyone seasoned from all walks of life, whether industry credentialed, indie mavericks, freelance journeymen, hobbyist codger's, hairless prodigies, cross-dressing programmers, core MMO shooter gamer fucks and even mods (that is...if time & glucose levels allow)...whomever!
As long as they know what they're talking about, giving focused critique on a dedicated board for serious works only, as I think someone above had alluded to already. But and here's the kicker MUST be stringently policed sorting the 'wheat from the chaff' either uploaded content or the comments offered, basically something along these lines or whatever...just a thought.
https://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?46064-Focused-critique-rules-PLEASE-READ-before-posting!
I've been called out as arrogant in another forum. Even though i'm just trying to be helpful, i notice that my post can be harsh looking back at it, so in some way, i even agree with those people that criticize my comment. The whole experience just made me prefer to shut up and focused on myself first.
Its pretty much my only problem on contributing here. I do leave some replies and feedback here and there, but only the basic stuff and never really trying to pick them apart considering that im still learning myself.
As for worrying about coming off too harsh, you can always use the compliment-constructive criticism-compliment format. I don't think it's strictly necessary--I don't think many people will complain if you just post a short post pointing out something that could be improved--but it'll ensure you come off as friendly.
Also, don't be too hard on yourself. There's some nice stuff in your portfolio.
With art my experience is different. Getting feedback from peers and non-artist is helpful to some degree. It can also lead you in the wrong direction - ever had someone telling you that you should do something differently just to find out he/she was wrong? It happens. No big deal if someone corrects it in time, but if it doesn't happen you easily turn it into a habit.
Besides the way how a critique should be formulated (we have here enough tips how it should be done properly and honestly it requires little to no magic to understand what constructive critism is) there is the point of what the feedback is about. I made the biggest progression in the last couple of months. The reason for that was me watching Adam Skutt giving feedback to other class members. There is a tremendous difference when a really good and experienced artist gives critiques. You start to see what they are looking for and what level is expected. These are things students and others can't help you with as 99% of the time they don't see the issues - if they would they wouldn't make the same mistakes themselves. So what's the point I am trying to get at?
Asking new members to show that they contribute before giving them feedback is most probably not a way to get quality feedback.How to give proper feedback is a skill that needs to be learned. You have to train your eye to be able to spot the issues and actually persons from who to learn it. Someone struggling with basic shapes won't be able to help others.
The other thing is - 'Keep posting to get feedback' - while the message makes sense from the veterans' perspective to reduce noise and to those who know it, newcomers actually just see that their posts don't draw attention. And if my work doesn't draw enough attention for comments, who am I to give others advice? - I rather expect most newcomers to simply not come back here. This at least was the reason for me to not get too involved neither here and even less on ZBrushcentral.
Now none of these things are polycount specific and this is not a rant, just simple observation. I get it that there are far too many posts to keep track of and far too many beginners with the same issues and this neither makes it easy nor fun to help. It is just a different perspective to the issue - more from the new guys point of view trying to get into this community.
I said it before and I say it again, I don't think it is fair of polycount to expect to be able to do it all. The community size is too big to handle critiques & feedback properly. Its a terrific place to learn about the industry, find information about software and workflows, but when I personally post here I don't expect any reactions at all and by now its just doing it because its part of the business for people that are new to the industry.
http://polycount.com/discussion/184706/the-rookies-2017-competetion-has-started
JimmyRustler said:
I actually wanted to contribute to the community by posting more feedbacks and replies to another users work, but i never really did that as i don't want to come across as arrogant, considering my skill and knowledge is still below average compared to the majority of the users here.
I've been called out as arrogant in another forum. Even though i'm just trying to be helpful, i notice that my post can be harsh looking back at it, so in some way, i even agree with those people that criticize my comment. The whole experience just made me prefer to shut up and focused on myself first.
Its pretty much my only problem on contributing here. I do leave some replies and feedback here and there, but only the basic stuff and never really trying to pick them apart considering that im still learning myself.
Irrespective whether you're a pro, hobbyist or student you never stop learning, period! So honestly I'd advise continue posting detailed critiques, don't stress yourself with what people may or may not think because if the recipient of your recommendation/s is non responsive, so be it! everyone is entitled too an opinion. At the end of the day remember there are other artists, that nevertheless might benefit from those insights and by the way not necessarily noobs trawling through these threads seeking tips, in general singularly in pursuit of progressing their creative development. It's how I initially started out and I'll hazard a guess many others here as well.
Cheers.
Yeah, tried to brush off those people, but back then, those negative experiences really got to me, and shutting up about it really helps, so my mindset now is still stuck 'just shut up' phase. I know its a bad attitude here, and everyone knows that getting an encouragement reply could brighten up someone's day, so yeah, i'll try to be more active these days. Thanks.
@sacboi
Great way looking at the problem. In the end, If atleast someone might benefits from my words, i guess its makes it alright.
A day ago I posted a thread with a portfolio piece, that's nearing the finish, to get some feedback to compare with my own notes, but it's about to pass away to second page, has some 40 views and 0 replies. I learn better with real example, than with theory. So I wonder, if am I doing something terribly wrong or does the piece in question falls into some grey area or just a bad luck?
http://polycount.com/discussion/184779/prefinal-wip-mercenary-veteran-halberdier#latest
Many artists post on multiple sites and don't really track feedback, or they are just busy with other things. I know that because as a moderator on another 3D forum I ran an experiment by replying to wip posts that had 0 replies. I found that I received about 10 % gratitude from posters and 90% no reaction.
This is an artist/designer site and members are interested in everything from moodboards to the finished result. With so much content getting responses is a great way of pulsing the strength of your concept and the structure of your process and thread.
I think.
This might just be me but I think there's an un-sweet spot where a project is so close to completion that the only things to crit are often quite minor or subjective. For example I think your knights cloth under-armour shouldnt be the same grey as the armour - its a good place to put contrast, maybe a bright highlight color. But you already made a decision to go with grey... those kind of critiques are the ones most often ignored. I don't know what you tried, what your ref was.
Short answer for this thread and everyone else: Post your project early and keep posting updates. sometimes it takes a few posts to get people involved and show your open to advice. I know that's not ideal, but that's how things are in a popular forum where your work will drop off the first page of posts in less than a day.
Fearian's reply above says basically the same thing I did in the OP (but with better finesse!).
Thanks for the info!
@Chimp
I didn't understand what you mean.
@fearian
Thanks a lot! Before it, I posted other steps too (except the concept - a big folder of references
http://polycount.com/discussion/183257/arnavarts-3d-work-showcase#latest
I totally agree with you, don't worry it's not difficult at all there is a master .PSD file with all the layers separated, will add color to the clothes.
@Erik Chadwick
Haha... I read your post twice, it's just better with real example in place.
Thanks anyway!
And then you made a 2nd thread with only one post in it (eyeball), and a 3rd thread with again only a single post (pre-final wip). Those two are bound to get less replies, both because they are "1-post loners" and because they will disappear from the first page quickly.
My advice would be to post more work-in-progress shots. Make it more of a development diary. Show more of your process. Keep updating your one thread with techniques and workflow and questions.
I'll keep that in mind.