These days I just sort of roll my eyes at fanservice and stop paying attention. I've long since stopped watching most of the anime japan pumps out in droves, most of the good ones have little to no fanservice (or I'm not paying that much attention). The series based on pure fan service are usually pretty meh and not worth the time.
Don't agree at all, let's take few of what are considered the best rated/popular anime.
Full metal alchemist brother hood: Bath scene, changing scene with wendy, half naked edward.
Evangelion: Asuna out of the shower, boobs zoom in mecha, etc
I used to hate fanservices. But in the end, all i really care is how they brought the story.
So i dont mind it, and it actually introduced me to a lot of entertaining series.
But still, i despise them. Makes it pretty hard for me to recommend a good series with bunch of fanservices.
Some of my friend actually thinks im kinda weird, but as long as i'm enjoying something, other people opinion doesn't matter to me.
Don't agree at all, let's take few of what are considered the best rated/popular anime.
[...]
So now I think I understand the term a bit more thanks to your list ... but I am even more confused by the need for it to begin with. What exactly is wrong with a choice made by the creators and producers of a show to include sex appeal (or even vulgarity, or harcore pornography, or gore, or anything else one can think of) in their product ?
I guess I am not quite understanding the discussion going on here. Is there any point being made besides just ... describing the phenomenon ? Is anyone saying that this stuff is ... bad ? Or good ? If someone considers it bad and not to one's taste, then it's just a matter of picking another show to watch. And if someone else happens to like that kind of stuff, then great !
Or is the problem being discussed the fact that such sexy shots offend a part of the audience ? But everyone has the right to offend and be offended, as long as it doesn't reach defamation territory - and as long as age ratings are enforced of course.
Now I totally understand how one can be disappointed by a show gradually becoming something else than what it was at the start, with the tone of said show gradually shifting for the sake of getting more views. But besides picking a better show to whatch, there's nothing to be done about it, besides maybe voicing one's opinion to the creators of the show (which seems easier than ever to do now).
Or am I missing something ?
(On a side note, I hope my tone is not coming through as dismissive - I am just having a bit of a hard time following, probably because I tend to enjoy my sources of entertainment without getting involved with online discussions about them. For instance I have no idea what people think of a show like DRRR - I just know that I dig it )
Things would get toxic really quick if anyone tried to make serious value judgments beyond just personal opinions. The topic at hand is at the intersection of a number of hot button issues, or could at the very least be used as a talking point for them.
The main reason for the thread is that this topic became the core talking point of TAN's challenge thread, and since it was tangential to the original purpose of that thread, the discussion was redirected (as best it could be) over here.
Well the fanservice thing at the beginning was a way to please the fan about some character, it was mean to be subtile way to gave some love from the character to the watcher. Don't forget that there's a strong culture of loving character called moe ( another term misused those days, but the word moe is suppose to be the world to describe your love feeling toward a character, now it just mean something really cute) It wasn't bad and most of the time it DIDN'T bother people who didn't like the character, or it was even funny.
Thing is, like everything it's now extreme, what was suppose to be done in good taste in mostly every anime is now a common genre. Some manga such as Highschool DxD are entirely fanservice base, if they have random conversation they need to be either changing or naked in the bath, everything that can be turn into fan service is done, therefore making a really bad image of anime yet again.
Fan service isn't a bad thing, It'S just that it's often badly use in low rate anime and make it really offensive for some people. But those anime are normally not made for everyone to watch but for a particular type of people. To take the same example again, yes there'S action and the story is kinda ok in Highschool DxD but the main reason to watch it isn'T either of those 2 genre, it's for the naked ladies, riped cloth and panty shot WITH an action base story, and that's where the probleme is created.
Misinformed people watching things that aren't made for them to watch and assuming that everything is like that or that that anime in particular is the devil, No it's not the case. Almost all anime have fanservice, some do it well, some do it crappy on purpose that'sall
It's a bit like comparing american show, sometime you'll have a sexe scene with purpose for example in weed, to show she has a close relation with blablablaw/e, but sometime like in GoT every single sex scene as no purpose and could be completely deleted from the series and nothing will change in the story.
Thing is, like everything it's now extreme, what was suppose to be done in good taste in mostly every anime is now a common genre. Some manga such as Highschool DxD are entirely fanservice base, if they have random conversation they need to be either changing or naked in the bath, everything that can be turn into fan service is done,
Yup, trends always evolve - and it seems pretty normal to me that something growing in popularity eventually becomes it's own dedicated sub-genre.
therefore making a really bad image of anime yet again.
Similarly to what Jimmy mentionned earlier, I personally have zero problem with that. Why would anyone concern onself with the misinformed views of others about ones hobby ? That's just wasted time and energy, better spent reading good books, watching good shows ... or working one's ass off doing game art
.Nl, yeah I totally agree. The only one thing that confuses me is : why is the existence of a certain sub-genre of anime (whatever it's called - FanService, DumbSexyRomance, whatever !) a hot button issue to begin with ?
That's an oversimplification. Oddly enough I think it illustrates the problem with western anime culture pretty well. As broad a genre as anime is, what annoys people is when anime fans fail to distinguish sexual themes from non-sexual, sometimes in ernist, and then fail to distinguish that from reality. Like when they started fetishizing a crimean prosecuter as "Prosecutie" because she reminded them of an anime archtype. Or when they use a short girl with small breasts to justify Tera's animal-eared child race's origonal armor design that included thongs.
If someone told that prosecuter she'd be prettier on her knees tied in a mic cable with a blushing bimbo expression at a press release, or a six year old that a thong bikini goes really well with Mickey ears, they'd be rightfully punched in the throat.
There's a lot of anime I love and feel has genuine artistic and literary value, but I wont pretend that every shot of Mitoko Kusanagi's shiny skin tight stealth camo'd ass is empowering, unbiased or art.
Just as with art, it's fine to like anime, even the seedy parts as long it's acknowledged for what its subject matter represents.
I'll spare everyone a fiery retort - Japan as a whole is a society that is more open to sex - they're still quite cynical and every bit conservative as we are - but they've long since come to terms with sexuality and don't try to hide it.
Fanservice has its place and time as do many things. What doesn't have a place is moral ninnies and crusaders from Polygon to Anita Sarkesian and Sex-Negative feminists - Sex is a "dangerous" thing, even more dangerous when sex is involved with fictional entities that have no real-world causation or existence.
Those who try to argue that such things can "cause" real world implications have one critical failure in their logic - attempting to use outdated cultivation theory and false statistics, not too mention some unneeded "advocacy" that turns into a giant crock (cough, cough, UVA/Rollingstone).
And as more research is conducted - just like violence, we're finding that some of the claims don't actually line up with the research or studies.
So what is fanservice? It's fanservice - sometimes it has a point, other times its useless. However, when people try to use fanservice as an excuse to skew facts and play moral guardian? I've got a serious problem with that.
This is off-tracked a little bit, but remember when Natalia Poklonskaya took the Internet overnight because lots of ppl drew her in manga/anime style ??
We were this close of making a 3d challenge of her as well. ( TAN's idea :P ) Though lots of ppl could only scratched their head and asked 'why ??'
In the mean time, we create 3d likeness of Jennifer, Britney, Angelina, Brad, Cumberbatch, Olando and what not without question ?
Well, and the fact we cannot have a real debate without things crashing in an epic mess.
Here's my problem with the entire objectification premise - does the media actually affect us? And does the subject inherently have an actual real-world posit?
An anime character is a fictional construction - it cannot feel, react, and respond independently like a flesh and blood entity.
Sex-Negative feminism purposely avoids dealing with these matters, and much to my own frustration, simplifies human sexuality and belittles it. Guess what? Most of us are hard-wired to have reactions to the opposite sex - and it's pretty dumb we're getting worked up over fictional depictions too.
Because several years back, one of the few studies that treaded into such matters revealed that there was an unusual link between increased porn availability on the internet and decreased sexual crime rates. More hard evidence?
It's been often cited (repeatedly) that violent crime rates have been decreasing. Yet our perception of said crime rates is often worse than it really is.
edit: PyrZern, no offense intended what so ever, it's just that your response made a great example.
In the mean time, we create 3d likeness of Jennifer, Britney, Angelina, Brad, Cumberbatch, Olando and what not without question ?
Everyone in that list very contentiously, very intentionally, makes a fortune from playing fictional characters as their profession. Moreover, you're not looking at the context of the work using their likeness, was it sexual for the sake of being sexual, a technical exercise, fan art etc.? You're just using them as an example because you recognized them, referred to them on a first name basis as if they're personal friends (could be a whole other thread) and didn't consider the work any further.
That failure to separate fiction from reality is exactly the core of the problem and is where a lot of anime culture loses ground in western society. Maybe it works in Japan where the civil rights and women's liberation movements weren't as prevalent, but in Europe and the US, it's going to clash.
This is off-tracked a little bit, but remember when Natalia Poklonskaya took the Internet overnight because lots of ppl drew her in manga/anime style ??
We were this close of making a 3d challenge of her as well. ( TAN's idea :P ) Though lots of ppl could only scratched their head and asked 'why ??'
In the mean time, we create 3d likeness of Jennifer, Britney, Angelina, Brad, Cumberbatch, Olando and what not without question ?
And if you people had listened to me we could be making this game by now
Jokes aside when I see something I really like I also would like to see if people would also like it or not.
About my "tastes", look I am not the most "normal" person around. And I really think it is completely OK when people look at what I say and go " You crazy sick bastard ! " I am not denying how it looks.
That's an oversimplification. Oddly enough I think it illustrates the problem with western anime culture pretty well. As broad a genre as anime is, what annoys people is when anime fans fail to distinguish sexual themes from non-sexual, sometimes in ernist, and then fail to distinguish that from reality. Like when they started fetishizing a crimean prosecuter as "Prosecutie" because she reminded them of an anime archtype. Or when they use a short girl with small breasts to justify Tera's animal-eared child race's origonal armor design that included thongs.
If someone told that prosecuter she'd be prettier on her knees tied in a mic cable with a blushing bimbo expression at a press release, or a six year old that a thong bikini goes really well with Mickey ears, they'd be rightfully punched in the throat.
Sexual inequity ? What a bunch of crap, I love having my female character half naked, And i really don'T find it sexy to see a male skin like that
However I farm that instantly,
I'm nowhere near a lesbien, not even bi, I just like it in anime and video game. I don't feel bad about my body or w/e because i saw something in an anime, i don't feel discriminate because there's a super badass knight girl wearing a bikini armor. I feel discriminated when i saw retarded bad personality female character, being all retarded just so man can be " AWHHHH MOEMOEMOEMOE" Like supersonico.
No one ever told me to wear a bikini armor to go to work or trash me because i wasn't doing panty shot, but oh boy the amount of time i heard "Why aren't you as cute as blablabla in that anime" " why don't you speak like her ? geez real life women are so boring and not cute" etc.
This is going back to what I was talking about, unrealistic ideals, dudes they wish they could be/date, and the girl's they wish the could date/be. Honestly no one else sees how deluded this is?
Whatever happened to inspirational characters, weird monsters, super robots, transformations, special techniques and the like, people don't seem to appreciate these as much as they adore these horrid moe characters and self inserts.
These shows and games are supposed to inspire people to do better; not shroud themselves in a fantasy world.
Just as science fiction is there to pave the way for later science fact.
These shows and games are supposed to inspire people to do better
Uhh... look at board games, dice, card games or other common forms of entertainment that have been around for centuries. They were just different ways to kill time and socialize. Modern video games are merely an extension of that.
I don't like moe crap but there wasn't some golden era where mainstream shows and games were being made with noble goal of inspiring people.
And allowing readers to escape to a different reality was always the selling point of sci-fi and fantasy works. Your wishful thinking won't change that.
Perhaps you are playing woodland games where more often than not the main character is a self insert who does things based upon numerous choices or tough guy games that are mainly match based or power fantasy.
When I say the media is inspirational, I am referring to of all the shonen tales in which the hero has a goal or obstacle to overcome and see them struggle at first; but through many trails and tribulations they attain their dreams through pure perseverance. Also I am also alluding to many tales in which the heroes never give up despite insurmountable odds.
As for inventions inspired by think of the submarine, holograms, the cellular phones we have now ,robots, lasers, space travel, and the internet as we see it today.
All of these were imaged in science fiction long before their current incarnations; so who is to say that we won't see any other things inspired not too long from now?
@Odow but oh boy the amount of time i heard "Why aren't you as cute as blablabla in that anime" " why don't you speak like her ? geez real life women are so boring and not cute" etc.
That is .... unsettling to say the least. Where is this happening again ? Can't say I heard these said to any of my friend before.
No one ever told me to wear a bikini armor to go to work or trash me because i wasn't doing panty shot, but oh boy the amount of time i heard "Why aren't you as cute as blablabla in that anime" " why don't you speak like her ? geez real life women are so boring and not cute" etc.
To be fair, I think this is not so much of an indicator of whether of not anime should or should not write their female characters one way or another, but rather, a very clear indicator that the person who said that is not worth hanging around with to begin with ! Being told something like that sure must have felt extremely weird.
Similarly and in the grand scheme of things, that's pretty much the very reason why it is not worth attempting to ban any sort of speech or media, regardless of how "offensive" or disrespectful its message is, because letting people speak their mind freely is a very good way to spot the people one wants to avoid.
However most of shonens can only inspire people to kick "bad guys" asses and save the world through violence, which is nothing more than childish fantasy.
They show how stubborness and willpower and friendship let you overcome any obstacle. They show that if you're in trouble a deus ex machina will happen to save your sorry ass.
That's bloody escapism. World doesn't work like that.
Teens are aware that most of them will end up having a boring job and uneventful life and shonen manga & anime allow them to escape to a world of epicness and ass kicking. World devoid of complex personalities and realistic moral dillemmas.
However most of shonens can only inspire people to kick "bad guys" asses and save the world through violence, which is nothing more than childish fantasy.
They show how stubbornness and willpower and friendship let you overcome any obstacle.
Well everyone loves a good action scene no? One shouldn't take those at face value; but the stubbornness and willpower part are dead on. Seriously, how many of the artists on this site have gotten to where they are in life to do sheer will power and that "never say die" attitude.
Also friendship, how many times have hommies hooked you up with a pretty good gig or gotten you out of a jam?
Many people have been through tough times and kept their resolve; that's what I am referring to. You've got to take that and apply it to your own life and ambitions. Anyone who has achieved anything of any merit had to have a considerable amount of will power; you cannot deny that.
That's bloody escapism. World doesn't work like that..
I will tell you what's escapism, woodland games almost each and everyone one of them is more or less. You customize the character to be a perfect or idealized version of yourself or the ideal of the opposite sex. The gameplay also illustrates that with it's open ended nature. None of these tales inspire anyone, collecting wolf pelts and loot only leads to a life of larping, mountain dew, and excrement bottles.
Teens are aware that most of them will end up having a boring job and uneventful life and shonen manga & anime allow them to escape to a world of epicness and ass kicking. World devoid of complex personalities and realistic moral dillemmas.
Well, the way you put it we might as well just sit back, have kids out of wedlock with the bar types from our home towns and work manual labor for the rest of our lives.
That's thinking small, these tales inspire people to think big.
That is .... unsettling to say the least. Where is this happening again ? Can't say I heard these said to any of my friend before.
I was a huge mmorpg player, and oh boy the amount of time this happen, There's always someone retarded like this. I also remember once a random guy at school in our anime club who was convinced women were aberrations because we weren't like they are in anime. I also met a lot of people who firmly believe japanese women where like that and speak like that, they fucking don't. and that's why a lot of women look down on anime otaku in japan
None of these tales inspire anyone, collecting wolf pelts and loot only leads to a life of larping, mountain dew, and excrement bottles.
I don't really know what you mean. But I can tell you that the Elder Scrolls series (while probably classified as Woodland), has inspired me incredibly. It gives you the freedom to do what you will; and there's great inspiration in that. In fact, "Elder Scrolls: Oblivion" is why I got into videogame art to begin with.
And "Elder Scrolls: Skyrim" was one of the things that has inspired me to get into self-sufficiency; to learn skills like woodworking, knife sharpening, identifying edible plants, and things.
I know I'm not the typical "gamer", but these games certainly inspire many. To say otherwise is simply untrue.
I don't really know what you mean. But I can tell you that
Look around the internet, when I tried to look up info about WOW, I kept finding horror stories about how WOW ruined their lives. How they don't leave their rooms and how they poop in jugs and things of that nature. The game was made to be addictive and suck people in; they hired psychologists to hook people in. That's evil.
It gives you the freedom to do what you will; and there's great inspiration in that. In fact, "Elder Scrolls: Oblivion" is why I got into videogame art to begin with.)
Too much freedom isn't good, it seems as though they want to pretend they are in that world instead of hearing the hero's tale; that's escapism. I am just curious, how was this one inspiring?
And "Elder Scrolls: Skyrim" was one of the things that has inspired me to get into self-sufficiency; to learn skills like woodworking, knife sharpening, identifying edible plants, and things.
Let me guess, you lived in a more urban or suburban area most of your life.
They taught this stuff in middle school during the 7th grade it's basic stuff.
To me at least, there is nothing mystical or magical about the woods, it's just the woods; a part of life, seen it all my life.
Let me guess, you lived in a more urban or suburban area most of your life.
They taught this stuff in middle school during the 7th grade it's basic stuff.
To me at least, there is nothing mystical or magical about the woods, it's just the woods; a part of life, seen it all my life.
Nope; I grew up in a fairly rural town in New England, surrounded by the woods. And they're only more magical to me because of it.
I never learned any of that in 7th grade, at any rate; good to learn it now. Puts me in touch with things around me, and helps me stay away from materialism/commercialism.
You're lucky to have learned it then, but most don't have that privilege.
Look around the internet, when I tried to look up info about WOW, I kept finding horror stories about how WOW ruined their lives. How they don't leave their rooms and how they poop in jugs and things of that nature. The game was made to be addictive and suck people in; they hired psychologists to hook people in. That's evil.
Why is escapism bad?
You never explained why it is bad. If someone is having fun playing WOW, then what is the problem.
Also, you really going to blame WOW for people peeing in jugs. There is something wrong with the person who does that. Its probably better they are playing WOW instead of say doing drugs.
Puts me in touch with things around me, and helps me stay away from materialism/commercialism.
I will give you that, I am not a material fellow either and all the access is horrible.
I do love seeing technological advancements, and interesting architecture though.
You never explained why it is bad. If someone is having fun playing WOW, then what is the problem.
Because it leads to being one of the fellows who smell bad, and a life of complacency.
There is something wrong when folks live in excess, and don't come to grips what is truly ailing them
People who are trying to escape aren't facing reality and that's no good.
Wow isn't inspiring folks to do other things, it just wants them to be sucked into it.
Why is escapism bad?
Also, you really going to blame WOW for people peeing in jugs. There is something wrong with the person who does that
P.S. Can this thread be closed.
Well, you've gotta support your guild for the raid right?
Can't leave the room under any circumstance or the guild-master will flip out,
I guess we are peeing in jugs.
Well, the big problem I have with your propositions about WoW is about the problem of personal responsibility. Quite frankly, MMOs can become like drugs or other efforts at escapism - but the game is only a part of the problem. You seemingly absolve personal responsibility in this regard. WoW may amplify character flaws in an individual that leads to excess, but those flaws are there to begin with.
I firmly believe in moderation in all things - but also recognize that we have to accept responsibility of our actions and can't merely blame hobbies or eccentricities for all ills.
As for myself? Ex-WoW player here. I burnt out on MMOs long after Wratch of the Lich King. Grinding seals, rep and getting tokens finally got to me mentally and I snapped (and never fully recovered). I can't keep a serious commitment to an MMO because there's so much more stuff like art that I could be doing. There's been more than one time I snapped on fellow guildmates and left them to face an enraged Arthas after telling them to shove it.
Pretty much all forms of entertainment are escapism. That's kind of the point. I spend long days thinking about bills and work or whatever, running around in a forest killing gerblins for a few hours takes my mind of it and is fun for relaxation. You're making some wild generalizations about people who play these games, they're not all addicts peeing in jugs. There are plenty of people who play WoW casually. Meanwhile, I'm sure there are people who play the games you like who do so obsessively. The blame shouldn't fall entirely on the game.
Also, just want to say Morrowind and Oblivion directly inspired me to become a game artist. I know a lot of people who were inspired by WoW. To say these games don't inspire people is ludicrous. Just because you don't happen to like a game doesn't make it objectively bad for people.
I don't know why I checked this thread but seeing it get Morris'd is pretty hilarious!
It kind of is in a sad way. It's like he's the last of his kind outside reactionary politicians who have this skewed view of morals and responsibility.
It's like observing a Thylacine.
Oh yeah sexism in real life against real people is bad, anything else is babby whining and taking offense get over it etc.
Well, the big problem I have with your propositions about WoW is about the problem of personal responsibility. Quite frankly, MMOs can become like drugs or other efforts at escapism - but the game is only a part of the problem. You seemingly absolve personal responsibility in this regard. WoW may amplify character flaws in an individual that leads to excess, but those flaws are there to begin with.
I firmly believe in moderation in all things - but also recognize that we have to accept responsibility of our actions and can't merely blame hobbies or eccentricities for all ills.
True, but you have to take into consideration there are many young 12-20 people playing this game who need guidance and their lives; their flaws don't need to be amplified they need to be guided in the right direction. The problem in today's world is that many kids don't have direction and they fall to horrible vices; people need to be set on the right path and woodland games definitely aren't.
Shouldn't we inspire people to improve good traits instead of purposely amplifying negative traits?
As for myself? Ex-WoW player here. I burnt out on MMOs long after Wratch of the Lich King. Grinding seals, rep and getting tokens finally got to me mentally and I snapped (and never fully recovered).
See even you admit that this one is poison.
It just amplifies negative traits.
I never got angered slightly when playing a console rpg, even when losing a major battle; I didn't scream or curse. i basically just said "Oh well, I will get them next time."
.You're making some wild generalizations about people who play these games, they're not all addicts peeing in jugs. There are plenty of people who play WoW casually. Meanwhile, I'm sure there are people who play the games you like who do so obsessively. The blame shouldn't fall entirely on the game.
Let's be 100% dude, when people on this forum mention folks from school who didn't do a damn thing while occupying space in the computer lab, and games they played it usually defaults to some woodland MMO or those team shooters people like to play.
I am sure there are some scary fan types, for the rpgs and platformers.
(The fanservice types who collect those dolls and pillows)
But you don't see them or hear about them that often.
Also, just want to say Morrowind and Oblivion directly inspired me to become a game artist. I know a lot of people who were inspired by WoW. To say these games don't inspire people is ludicrous. Just because you don't happen to like a game doesn't make it objectively bad for people.
It's not the fact that I don't like them, it's their negative impact on gaming as a whole and they were designed to be addictive. More often folks won't be inspired and just relapse into complacency.
If I was really talking out of my butt, then why are there so many articles, news posts dating back to 1994 about "bad" these games are; yet you'll be hard pressed to find anything in regards to rpgs or platformers?
It kind of is in a sad way. It's like he's the last of his kind outside reactionary politicians who have this skewed view of morals and responsibility.
It's like observing a Thylacine.
It's more so the fact that these titles are being propped up, when they shouldn't their impact is more negative than positive.
Well, and trying to reason with you Valuemeal is like charging at Don Quixote's Windmills. My attitude is and will be live at let be. The more time we spend trying to control, manipulate, subvert, and dictate to others is time we can actually use to better ourselves and others through useful and properly ascertained critique.
It's much easier to complain about others than to engage in self introspection. And this is the last I'll be rambling in this thread, peace out.
If I was really talking out of my butt, then why are there so many articles, news posts dating back to 1994 about "bad" these games are; yet you'll be hard pressed to find anything in regards to rpgs or platformers?
Because they have a clear end. All games however are designed to trigger certain stimuli in the human brain.
I mean, many of us was at home skipping school just to play a tiny bit more of the latest fun game that just came out.
Because they have a clear end. All games however are designed to trigger certain stimuli in the human brain.
I mean, many of us was at home skipping school just to play a tiny bit more of the latest fun game that just came out.
I wasn't exclusively talking about MMOs, I was talking about titles and genres you think that I am against without merit in general. There are multiple news reports,and articles against them; when someone is nothing off about how bad games are or the tropes people complain
it's mainly these genres and titles.
I abhor disdain for these titles not due to my own bias, or influence from these news articles; throughout my life I have seen first hand how these titles effect feeble fellows and it's horrifying. I am not at will to share the stories on this post though.
I have honestly making light of an otherwise dour situation.
Well, I didn't skip school for what I played, I often just waited for the weekend to play and a good title would last me over 2 months.
pior
Alright, you have a point, these titles brought happiness and joy to a fellow living a life of despair and even helped him socialize more than usual. Heck, these tittles even saved his life in a rather odd manner.
I was perhaps being selfish in my statements about shonen titles inspiring people; I was going of the assumption that everyone about had basic basic amenities or was fairly well off. I didn't have those from abusive households and horrid environments in mind; I am sorry.
Video games don't cause violence or make people into terrible human beings. They're already that way. It's a classic case of correlation =/= causation. Just because the people you knew played those games doesn't mean the games made them that way. There were shitty, terrible, immoral, prejudiced people waaaaaaay before video games.
I think this is fundamental to what is being discussed. Does one take the red pill or the blue pill? This guy has gone down the rabbit hole. Is fantasy a viable life? Is it good for him? Who are we to say?
I was perhaps being selfish in my statements about shonen titles inspiring people; I was going of the assumption that everyone about had basic basic amenities or was fairly well off. I didn't have those from abusive households and horrid environments in mind; I am sorry.
Well you know, takes a broken home to make mmo's seem like the rescue. We can't all have the luxury to grow up with shonen titles to save us.
Replies
Don't agree at all, let's take few of what are considered the best rated/popular anime.
Full metal alchemist brother hood: Bath scene, changing scene with wendy, half naked edward.
Evangelion: Asuna out of the shower, boobs zoom in mecha, etc
Steins;gate: bath scene, bikini, kristina changing, boobs.
HunterXhunter: Hisoka is always naked.
gundam: Pretty much every gundam as a boob or panty shot or a mecha pilot taking his shower
Mushishi: One of the only where i can't think of any.
Monogatari: I don't even need to say anything.
Madoka: naked magical girl hugging
Sailor moon and pretty much all magical girl: naked when they henshin
Dragon ball: all the way
GTO: Panty shot every pages
shigeki : Butts
Naruto, bleach and all thos kind of shonen: Full of of it everywhere
So i dont mind it, and it actually introduced me to a lot of entertaining series.
But still, i despise them. Makes it pretty hard for me to recommend a good series with bunch of fanservices.
Some of my friend actually thinks im kinda weird, but as long as i'm enjoying something, other people opinion doesn't matter to me.
So now I think I understand the term a bit more thanks to your list ... but I am even more confused by the need for it to begin with. What exactly is wrong with a choice made by the creators and producers of a show to include sex appeal (or even vulgarity, or harcore pornography, or gore, or anything else one can think of) in their product ?
I guess I am not quite understanding the discussion going on here. Is there any point being made besides just ... describing the phenomenon ? Is anyone saying that this stuff is ... bad ? Or good ? If someone considers it bad and not to one's taste, then it's just a matter of picking another show to watch. And if someone else happens to like that kind of stuff, then great !
Or is the problem being discussed the fact that such sexy shots offend a part of the audience ? But everyone has the right to offend and be offended, as long as it doesn't reach defamation territory - and as long as age ratings are enforced of course.
Now I totally understand how one can be disappointed by a show gradually becoming something else than what it was at the start, with the tone of said show gradually shifting for the sake of getting more views. But besides picking a better show to whatch, there's nothing to be done about it, besides maybe voicing one's opinion to the creators of the show (which seems easier than ever to do now).
Or am I missing something ?
(On a side note, I hope my tone is not coming through as dismissive - I am just having a bit of a hard time following, probably because I tend to enjoy my sources of entertainment without getting involved with online discussions about them. For instance I have no idea what people think of a show like DRRR - I just know that I dig it
The main reason for the thread is that this topic became the core talking point of TAN's challenge thread, and since it was tangential to the original purpose of that thread, the discussion was redirected (as best it could be) over here.
Thing is, like everything it's now extreme, what was suppose to be done in good taste in mostly every anime is now a common genre. Some manga such as Highschool DxD are entirely fanservice base, if they have random conversation they need to be either changing or naked in the bath, everything that can be turn into fan service is done, therefore making a really bad image of anime yet again.
Fan service isn't a bad thing, It'S just that it's often badly use in low rate anime and make it really offensive for some people. But those anime are normally not made for everyone to watch but for a particular type of people. To take the same example again, yes there'S action and the story is kinda ok in Highschool DxD but the main reason to watch it isn'T either of those 2 genre, it's for the naked ladies, riped cloth and panty shot WITH an action base story, and that's where the probleme is created.
Misinformed people watching things that aren't made for them to watch and assuming that everything is like that or that that anime in particular is the devil, No it's not the case. Almost all anime have fanservice, some do it well, some do it crappy on purpose that'sall
It's a bit like comparing american show, sometime you'll have a sexe scene with purpose for example in weed, to show she has a close relation with blablablaw/e, but sometime like in GoT every single sex scene as no purpose and could be completely deleted from the series and nothing will change in the story.
Yup, trends always evolve - and it seems pretty normal to me that something growing in popularity eventually becomes it's own dedicated sub-genre.
Similarly to what Jimmy mentionned earlier, I personally have zero problem with that. Why would anyone concern onself with the misinformed views of others about ones hobby ? That's just wasted time and energy, better spent reading good books, watching good shows ... or working one's ass off doing game art
.Nl, yeah I totally agree. The only one thing that confuses me is : why is the existence of a certain sub-genre of anime (whatever it's called - FanService, DumbSexyRomance, whatever !) a hot button issue to begin with ?
If someone told that prosecuter she'd be prettier on her knees tied in a mic cable with a blushing bimbo expression at a press release, or a six year old that a thong bikini goes really well with Mickey ears, they'd be rightfully punched in the throat.
There's a lot of anime I love and feel has genuine artistic and literary value, but I wont pretend that every shot of Mitoko Kusanagi's shiny skin tight stealth camo'd ass is empowering, unbiased or art.
Just as with art, it's fine to like anime, even the seedy parts as long it's acknowledged for what its subject matter represents.
Fanservice has its place and time as do many things. What doesn't have a place is moral ninnies and crusaders from Polygon to Anita Sarkesian and Sex-Negative feminists - Sex is a "dangerous" thing, even more dangerous when sex is involved with fictional entities that have no real-world causation or existence.
Those who try to argue that such things can "cause" real world implications have one critical failure in their logic - attempting to use outdated cultivation theory and false statistics, not too mention some unneeded "advocacy" that turns into a giant crock (cough, cough, UVA/Rollingstone).
And as more research is conducted - just like violence, we're finding that some of the claims don't actually line up with the research or studies.
So what is fanservice? It's fanservice - sometimes it has a point, other times its useless. However, when people try to use fanservice as an excuse to skew facts and play moral guardian? I've got a serious problem with that.
We were this close of making a 3d challenge of her as well. ( TAN's idea :P ) Though lots of ppl could only scratched their head and asked 'why ??'
In the mean time, we create 3d likeness of Jennifer, Britney, Angelina, Brad, Cumberbatch, Olando and what not without question ?
"Men"
I'm being such a sexist
Here's my problem with the entire objectification premise - does the media actually affect us? And does the subject inherently have an actual real-world posit?
An anime character is a fictional construction - it cannot feel, react, and respond independently like a flesh and blood entity.
Sex-Negative feminism purposely avoids dealing with these matters, and much to my own frustration, simplifies human sexuality and belittles it. Guess what? Most of us are hard-wired to have reactions to the opposite sex - and it's pretty dumb we're getting worked up over fictional depictions too.
Because several years back, one of the few studies that treaded into such matters revealed that there was an unusual link between increased porn availability on the internet and decreased sexual crime rates. More hard evidence?
It's been often cited (repeatedly) that violent crime rates have been decreasing. Yet our perception of said crime rates is often worse than it really is.
Edit: I'll let GaijinGoombah take it away on my stance: [ame]
Everyone in that list very contentiously, very intentionally, makes a fortune from playing fictional characters as their profession. Moreover, you're not looking at the context of the work using their likeness, was it sexual for the sake of being sexual, a technical exercise, fan art etc.? You're just using them as an example because you recognized them, referred to them on a first name basis as if they're personal friends (could be a whole other thread) and didn't consider the work any further.
That failure to separate fiction from reality is exactly the core of the problem and is where a lot of anime culture loses ground in western society. Maybe it works in Japan where the civil rights and women's liberation movements weren't as prevalent, but in Europe and the US, it's going to clash.
And if you people had listened to me we could be making this game by now
Jokes aside when I see something I really like I also would like to see if people would also like it or not.
About my "tastes", look I am not the most "normal" person around. And I really think it is completely OK when people look at what I say and go " You crazy sick bastard ! " I am not denying how it looks.
Keep moe and carry on !
Just wanted to put this here
She's not aware of her look.
;D
However I farm that instantly,
I'm nowhere near a lesbien, not even bi, I just like it in anime and video game. I don't feel bad about my body or w/e because i saw something in an anime, i don't feel discriminate because there's a super badass knight girl wearing a bikini armor. I feel discriminated when i saw retarded bad personality female character, being all retarded just so man can be " AWHHHH MOEMOEMOEMOE" Like supersonico.
No one ever told me to wear a bikini armor to go to work or trash me because i wasn't doing panty shot, but oh boy the amount of time i heard "Why aren't you as cute as blablabla in that anime" " why don't you speak like her ? geez real life women are so boring and not cute" etc.
Whatever happened to inspirational characters, weird monsters, super robots, transformations, special techniques and the like, people don't seem to appreciate these as much as they adore these horrid moe characters and self inserts.
These shows and games are supposed to inspire people to do better; not shroud themselves in a fantasy world.
Just as science fiction is there to pave the way for later science fact.
Uhh... look at board games, dice, card games or other common forms of entertainment that have been around for centuries. They were just different ways to kill time and socialize. Modern video games are merely an extension of that.
I don't like moe crap but there wasn't some golden era where mainstream shows and games were being made with noble goal of inspiring people.
And allowing readers to escape to a different reality was always the selling point of sci-fi and fantasy works. Your wishful thinking won't change that.
Perhaps you are playing woodland games where more often than not the main character is a self insert who does things based upon numerous choices or tough guy games that are mainly match based or power fantasy.
When I say the media is inspirational, I am referring to of all the shonen tales in which the hero has a goal or obstacle to overcome and see them struggle at first; but through many trails and tribulations they attain their dreams through pure perseverance. Also I am also alluding to many tales in which the heroes never give up despite insurmountable odds.
As for inventions inspired by think of the submarine, holograms, the cellular phones we have now ,robots, lasers, space travel, and the internet as we see it today.
All of these were imaged in science fiction long before their current incarnations; so who is to say that we won't see any other things inspired not too long from now?
That is .... unsettling
To be fair, I think this is not so much of an indicator of whether of not anime should or should not write their female characters one way or another, but rather, a very clear indicator that the person who said that is not worth hanging around with to begin with ! Being told something like that sure must have felt extremely weird.
Similarly and in the grand scheme of things, that's pretty much the very reason why it is not worth attempting to ban any sort of speech or media, regardless of how "offensive" or disrespectful its message is, because letting people speak their mind freely is a very good way to spot the people one wants to avoid.
Well, some of them could be inspiring.
One of my favourites:
http://bato.to/comic/_/comics/beck-r536
However most of shonens can only inspire people to kick "bad guys" asses and save the world through violence, which is nothing more than childish fantasy.
They show how stubborness and willpower and friendship let you overcome any obstacle. They show that if you're in trouble a deus ex machina will happen to save your sorry ass.
That's bloody escapism. World doesn't work like that.
Teens are aware that most of them will end up having a boring job and uneventful life and shonen manga & anime allow them to escape to a world of epicness and ass kicking. World devoid of complex personalities and realistic moral dillemmas.
Well everyone loves a good action scene no? One shouldn't take those at face value; but the stubbornness and willpower part are dead on. Seriously, how many of the artists on this site have gotten to where they are in life to do sheer will power and that "never say die" attitude.
Also friendship, how many times have hommies hooked you up with a pretty good gig or gotten you out of a jam?
Many people have been through tough times and kept their resolve; that's what I am referring to. You've got to take that and apply it to your own life and ambitions. Anyone who has achieved anything of any merit had to have a considerable amount of will power; you cannot deny that.
I will tell you what's escapism, woodland games almost each and everyone one of them is more or less. You customize the character to be a perfect or idealized version of yourself or the ideal of the opposite sex. The gameplay also illustrates that with it's open ended nature. None of these tales inspire anyone, collecting wolf pelts and loot only leads to a life of larping, mountain dew, and excrement bottles.
Well, the way you put it we might as well just sit back, have kids out of wedlock with the bar types from our home towns and work manual labor for the rest of our lives.
That's thinking small, these tales inspire people to think big.
I was a huge mmorpg player, and oh boy the amount of time this happen, There's always someone retarded like this. I also remember once a random guy at school in our anime club who was convinced women were aberrations because we weren't like they are in anime. I also met a lot of people who firmly believe japanese women where like that and speak like that, they fucking don't. and that's why a lot of women look down on anime otaku in japan
I don't really know what you mean. But I can tell you that the Elder Scrolls series (while probably classified as Woodland), has inspired me incredibly. It gives you the freedom to do what you will; and there's great inspiration in that. In fact, "Elder Scrolls: Oblivion" is why I got into videogame art to begin with.
And "Elder Scrolls: Skyrim" was one of the things that has inspired me to get into self-sufficiency; to learn skills like woodworking, knife sharpening, identifying edible plants, and things.
I know I'm not the typical "gamer", but these games certainly inspire many. To say otherwise is simply untrue.
(Also, I don't like action scenes)
Look around the internet, when I tried to look up info about WOW, I kept finding horror stories about how WOW ruined their lives. How they don't leave their rooms and how they poop in jugs and things of that nature. The game was made to be addictive and suck people in; they hired psychologists to hook people in. That's evil.
Too much freedom isn't good, it seems as though they want to pretend they are in that world instead of hearing the hero's tale; that's escapism. I am just curious, how was this one inspiring?
Let me guess, you lived in a more urban or suburban area most of your life.
They taught this stuff in middle school during the 7th grade it's basic stuff.
To me at least, there is nothing mystical or magical about the woods, it's just the woods; a part of life, seen it all my life.
Nope; I grew up in a fairly rural town in New England, surrounded by the woods. And they're only more magical to me because of it.
I never learned any of that in 7th grade, at any rate; good to learn it now. Puts me in touch with things around me, and helps me stay away from materialism/commercialism.
You're lucky to have learned it then, but most don't have that privilege.
Why is escapism bad?
You never explained why it is bad. If someone is having fun playing WOW, then what is the problem.
Also, you really going to blame WOW for people peeing in jugs. There is something wrong with the person who does that. Its probably better they are playing WOW instead of say doing drugs.
P.S. Can this thread be closed.
I firmly believe in moderation in all things - but also recognize that we have to accept responsibility of our actions and can't merely blame hobbies or eccentricities for all ills.
As for myself? Ex-WoW player here. I burnt out on MMOs long after Wratch of the Lich King. Grinding seals, rep and getting tokens finally got to me mentally and I snapped (and never fully recovered). I can't keep a serious commitment to an MMO because there's so much more stuff like art that I could be doing. There's been more than one time I snapped on fellow guildmates and left them to face an enraged Arthas after telling them to shove it.
Also, just want to say Morrowind and Oblivion directly inspired me to become a game artist. I know a lot of people who were inspired by WoW. To say these games don't inspire people is ludicrous. Just because you don't happen to like a game doesn't make it objectively bad for people.
It kind of is in a sad way. It's like he's the last of his kind outside reactionary politicians who have this skewed view of morals and responsibility.
It's like observing a Thylacine.
Oh yeah sexism in real life against real people is bad, anything else is babby whining and taking offense get over it etc.
Wait... his name is a verb?
True, but you have to take into consideration there are many young 12-20 people playing this game who need guidance and their lives; their flaws don't need to be amplified they need to be guided in the right direction. The problem in today's world is that many kids don't have direction and they fall to horrible vices; people need to be set on the right path and woodland games definitely aren't.
Shouldn't we inspire people to improve good traits instead of purposely amplifying negative traits?
See even you admit that this one is poison.
It just amplifies negative traits.
I never got angered slightly when playing a console rpg, even when losing a major battle; I didn't scream or curse. i basically just said "Oh well, I will get them next time."
Let's be 100% dude, when people on this forum mention folks from school who didn't do a damn thing while occupying space in the computer lab, and games they played it usually defaults to some woodland MMO or those team shooters people like to play.
I am sure there are some scary fan types, for the rpgs and platformers.
(The fanservice types who collect those dolls and pillows)
But you don't see them or hear about them that often.
It's not the fact that I don't like them, it's their negative impact on gaming as a whole and they were designed to be addictive. More often folks won't be inspired and just relapse into complacency.
If I was really talking out of my butt, then why are there so many articles, news posts dating back to 1994 about "bad" these games are; yet you'll be hard pressed to find anything in regards to rpgs or platformers?
It's more so the fact that these titles are being propped up, when they shouldn't their impact is more negative than positive.
It's uncouth more so than anything, and as stated before, they assume the audience is a bunch of neanderthals or desperate fellows.
It's much easier to complain about others than to engage in self introspection. And this is the last I'll be rambling in this thread, peace out.
Because they have a clear end. All games however are designed to trigger certain stimuli in the human brain.
I mean, many of us was at home skipping school just to play a tiny bit more of the latest fun game that just came out.
[ame]
Turns out, different people are different !
I wasn't exclusively talking about MMOs, I was talking about titles and genres you think that I am against without merit in general. There are multiple news reports,and articles against them; when someone is nothing off about how bad games are or the tropes people complain
it's mainly these genres and titles.
I abhor disdain for these titles not due to my own bias, or influence from these news articles; throughout my life I have seen first hand how these titles effect feeble fellows and it's horrifying. I am not at will to share the stories on this post though.
I have honestly making light of an otherwise dour situation.
Well, I didn't skip school for what I played, I often just waited for the weekend to play and a good title would last me over 2 months.
pior
Alright, you have a point, these titles brought happiness and joy to a fellow living a life of despair and even helped him socialize more than usual. Heck, these tittles even saved his life in a rather odd manner.
I was perhaps being selfish in my statements about shonen titles inspiring people; I was going of the assumption that everyone about had basic basic amenities or was fairly well off. I didn't have those from abusive households and horrid environments in mind; I am sorry.
Video games don't cause violence or make people into terrible human beings. They're already that way. It's a classic case of correlation =/= causation. Just because the people you knew played those games doesn't mean the games made them that way. There were shitty, terrible, immoral, prejudiced people waaaaaaay before video games.
No, this is simply impossible. No man is 100% dude.
Well you know, takes a broken home to make mmo's seem like the rescue. We can't all have the luxury to grow up with shonen titles to save us.
Lies.
I am 187% dude. My wife told me so.
188% dude my dudes