Fanservice/Sexism in Anime and How Anime/Otakus Are Seen By Society
polycounter lvl 12
So a side discussion has manifested significantly on a related one. Someone suggested must a thread dedicated to this one.Topic is just as you see. So. Let's go.
Replies
the sexism-threads seems like a thing of the past, there was some pretty wild discussions before, but now everybody knows what everybody else thinks about it, so there is little use discussing it, since it just would be the old arguments all over.
but as a sidenote, what does fanservice mean? is it always nude characters?
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145357
and people got heated.
Perhaps you will do this better.
Tan also the problem with anime is sort of the problem with the post you made. You open the post and it like oh Tan has been wanking too that monster girl hentai.
Yes, it is hentai. Just google MonMusu and look at the first image that comes up.
P.S. Not saying hentai is wrong. It just similar to MLP fans, it like do they masturbate to ponies.
Anybody that treats an entertainment choice as their defining character trait is seen as bizarre by society, as it's basing who you are on a completely fabricated world. Mix that in with socially taboo sexuality and you set yourself up to be a social outcast.
If someone look at this picture without any context, surely the thought one would have is "oh, cute. pretty girl. Small boobs, but cute nonetheless."
I don't think there would be anything wrong with it. So, when does it become wrong/weird/fetish/perv ?
I'm curious.
I don't think you are going to get an exact answer to that as different people have different standards of taste and how they perceive things. I think for some people the fact that there is some horribly distasteful subject matter portrayed in an anime style is enough to taint the entire genre.
Frankly this whole thread seems like bait for anime enthusiasts to ask people why they don't like certain anime styles just for the sake of having an argument.
Japan and Japanese society, by and large, appears westernized to us but still has some major aspects that are definitely not western, once you get below the surface.
Their views of gender roles and sexuality are one of those things.
That's not an indictment. It's an acknowledgement of fact. Here's another fact: culturally, they have zero regard for the western postmodernist schools of feminism that are en vogue currently in America and western Europe. Zero. It is fundamentally alien to them and they are still a very insular culture that does not easily put much credibility in things, people, and ideas that do not come from Japan.
I am not personally a huge fan of T&Anime, but it is literally delusion to expect the Japanese anime culture to do anything except give you a strange look and maybe laugh at you, if you were to confront them with feminism based in Marcusian identity politics.
Fujoshi after all is as much of a thing as an otaku and is treated with the same level of mockery. We might not hear about it often in the west, but there is a myriad of erotic games, comics, anime and merchandise aimed specifically at the female demographic and all this stuff is just as out there as their male-aimed counterparts.
Normal clothes, tough movements, poetic stance and movement, lower voice. And still looks beautiful/elegant.
I think this is what Blizzard should have done when they were designing one.
[ame]
Agreed
As others have said, I think what frustrates most westerners is when other westerners selectively adopt the idea that this level of sexism is ok and worse, when they try to assert it into western cculture.
If it were treated appropriatsly for the region it's being viewed in by its fans, this wouldn't be as big of a deal.
Tan, I don't know your location, but because Polycount is a western site, I think most viewers read you as a westerner. Even if you're not, the context in which you present some of this stuff, albeit obviously well intentioned, is why these threads get heated.
What's sad to me is that the reason Japanese sexuality is heading in this direction is because the millenials there are having an awful time with work/life balance, and are largely uncomfortable talking to women. These characters are designed to be as unimtimidating as possible (and are getting progressively younger as the problem gets worse), the result is a culture that desires charicatures, not people. I don't think most western anime fans understand that. What they consider embracing an exotic culture is actually championing a symptom of one of that culture's biggest problems.
(See Japan's steadily plummeting birth rates.)
When your nation is running government awareness campaigns about how to stop working once in a while, find a mate, and have babies, your society has serious issues.
Large portions of Japan's child-bearing demographics have literally lost the knowledge of how to engage in pair-bonding and reproduction. That is nearly unprecedented in the history of organized societies.
I would not be surprised if they have to take drastic measures in the near future, such as mandatory five or four day work weeks, and intrusive (even for them) social services efforts to dig shut-ins out of their homes and get them out socializing.
I don't have the slightest clue how they're going to get those people to be functional parents. If they pull it off at all, there's going to be a major historical era in Japan marked by their saturation in parenting-help and education infomercials and activities.
Why is sexual features being prominent in a character wrong? Is it because it's easy? Because as far as I know people have different tastes when it comes to what they find attractive and hitting some median there isn't easy.
Is it because it's morally wrong? Cause last I checked sex and sexuality are pretty much the most natural parts of humanity and we no longer live in the dark ages.
If a piece of art contains a "perfectly" curved lady or "perfectly" chiseled man, is it suddenly worth less than art that does not contain it? I really do not get where all this comes from.
You make a game that prides itself on having scantily clad women playing volleyball, breasts unrealistically bouncing everywhere, all of it done to be evocative and titillating to those who might like it. That game is somehow abhorrent and bad and setting humanity back.
You make a game that prides itself on how viscerally you can kill people by tearing their spine out after you've beaten them senseless and it's perfectly fine.
SERIOUSLY, WHY IS ARTISTIC SEX AND NUDITY IN ANY MEASURE CONSIDERED A BAD THING AT ALL!?
I'm fine with (and would encourage) nudity and sexualization with a purpose (male or female), but if a piece media revels in it for no reason other than to provide fan service, then I'm pretty much guaranteed to shut it off. Its not that it's bad, it's just out of line with modern cultural norms, and things like that generally pander in all ways to a degree that I can't stand.
I also just personally find the experience of vicariously ripping out spines and exploding heads to be much more satisfying and exotic (dating won't let you nuke a junkyard).
Nudity and artistic depictions of nudity are completely fine in my book. I have zero problem with act paintings etc.
The issue is not nudity, but the portrayal of female characters as objects that exist only for the entertainment of a male audience, or as fancy-dressed objectives to be rescued and all that. This kind of portrayal is degrading because the woman is reduced from a character to a mere resource.
The difference between a female act drawing and the swimsuit models in some current games is HUGE. The act model does not exist for the entertainment of men, the portrayal is an objective one or at least an artistic one. The swimsuit heroes do exist to make the game more attractive to a young male audience - they aren't characters, they are wares.
Nudity isn't bad. Objectification and degrading attitude to women is bad.
Please note I have no issue with naked people in or out of video games or comics, it's just the way they are portrayed and the intentions behind that that makes all the difference.
It's like the difference between a portrait and a pin-up. The purpose and the intention is different.
http://imagecache6.allposters.com/LRG/19/1919/IXM9D00Z.jpg
http://www.glamourista.nl/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/marilyn-monroe-pin-up-body.jpg
The difference should be obvious yes?
Sure, in some cases it's easy to tell what was the thought process that resulted in creation of some female characters or artworks.
But in other cases you can only guess what intentions were and even when creator reveals his/her intentions some people will plain refuse to accept the explanation.
Is "artistic" nudity really fundamentally different from stuff like pinups?
You can look at some nude photo or drawing and speculate about author's great artistic vision but can you rule out the possibility that the author just likes the sight of naked women, possibly in seductive poses?
Technique and form may make it less obvious but can you tell for sure that woman on a painting is something more than artist's fantasy?
You may say 'but result looks artistic so women can enjoy it as well, unlike pinups'.
Guess what, there's women out there who enjoy staring at naked women too, without caring about intentions behind the art.
There is no clear line between 'admiring the female beauty' and a shallow fascination.
And there is no clear point at which actual art turns into something "made only for male entertainment".
You would find that people have quite differing opinions on whether some specific painting belongs in that second category or not.
Don't get me wrong - I like to think that nude drawings that I do have more artistic value than, for example, anime pics from first page. But I don't try to pretend that, when I draw fictional characters, they have some kind of life outside of drawing, a complex backstory and a fancy purpose that led to their creation.
They exist solely for the viewing pleasure of whoever enjoys looking at such drawings, regardless of gender.
Some have posted, in other threads. A few people applaud them for providing their insight but mostly they get ignored because even the men who disagree with them won't challenge women on the points they make.
No man wants to be in the awkward position of telling a woman that they're wrong about womens issues so instead they just find a dude in the thread to argue with.
In my honest opinion fanservice is absolutely deplorable, not because it is sexual; but more so because it assumes that the viewers are either neanderthals or pathetic fellows who will latch on display of sexuality. Often fan service will ruin otherwise great series with interesting tales being told; or worse entire tales will be spun around fan service and that is no good. Also horrific merchandise such as dakimakura pillows, lewd figurines, and the boob mouse pads are being produced; this is just sleazy.
More about the otaku types world wide, these fellows overall don't take action and are fawning over imaginary folks and making useless collections. Overall it seems to be a wasteful lifestyle of indulgence and inaction, this also extends to the attention seeking cosplay folks as well; they are extremely loud and unable to be themselves.
People need to take certain bits and pieces from shows and games in order to better their lives as apposed to living in the fantasy of said media.
Well, that's my two cents.
mjeehh i think you need to define viewing pleasure. most of the stuff ive seen from you, pleasure isnt the first word that comes to mind. i mean i enyoy your art, but you clearly have a thing for the grotesque, dark and morbid (at least a bit).
my point is, its clear as day, that you are aiming for that. nobody who sees it think "wow blaisoid is really bad at drawing cute disney characters, they dont look cute at all!" beacuse its clear what you are aiming for. if we are going to use fancy words, you have a certian visual language that evokes different feelings for the viewer, than say disney movies.
aaaaand, to tie this back on topic, pinups and fanservice anime have their own visaul language. and its obviuos what feeling its try to evoke.
so, you, disney and fanservice anime are all aiming for the viewing pleasure at the audince, but what KIND is what makes all the difference. fanservice anime wants me to feel sexual attraction for the characters, you dont so much.
i agree that its sometimes hard to discern the intent of the artist. bayonetta is such an example. shes has sexulised apperence, but she is also an super powerfull witch who kicks demon ass. in this case its hard to say that the sexualising is objectifying or degrading, IMO.
saved!
One has to focus on making things and nothing else
but enough derailing ..back to serious
No, one should abstain from all earthly pleasures. Of course, making things is an earthly pleasure, too, so that's out.
Probably best to just succumb to the hostility of the Universe, and slowly dissolve into entropy. While looking at this.
Going into this field, I thought that was how it had to be, keeping everything at a distance while trying to make better pieces.
Back when I did a course on Art History in college, one of the first things we were bombarded with were pictures of ancient humans who were obsessed with the concept of fertility.
Venus of Willendorf and many more were common throughout human history.
So even though I understand the issue of how portraying genders as sexual can be bad, and how games should definitely embrace more female characters that are presented like men (*cough*) part of me struggles with this because it feels like human nature to want to create art that is lewd.
thats pretty hardcore. i guess you dont play games then, cuz unless they are minecraft, you arent creating anything
what does blizzard have to do with this? Also she fight alongside more revealing female (and male characters) in tekken.
I heard the problem in Japan was perceptions of married life and wanting independence.
That both men and women would rather remain non committed and independent rather than a slave away saleryman or house wife.
I doubt a large portion is really just shut ins and rather people who don't find married life appealing and would rather sleep around.
Though it's not as drastic yet maybe, America is facing the same issue for slightly different reasons. So Japan isn't too special in this, just ahead of the curve.
Actually, pretty sure people got angry with you because you came up with an idiotic way of categorising fellows into groups depending on what games they played, e.g. 'spicy sausages', 'woodland shlongs' or whatever the heck else you came up with, (more funny than rage-inducing now though)
On the flip side there is starting to become more fan service for the ladies. It used to be women just fangirled over a guy in their favourite series but now with series like Free there is pure fanservice series directed at ladies. (then again maybe i've just never noticed them before, i've only really learnt about free from a friend. [dont judge me I dont watch it!] It is nice to see not just women are being objectified for a change. We are slowly gaining equality it making everybody feel bad about themselves, yay...
Oh sorry. I needed to elaborate.
You remember that Overwatch Zoiya character right. There were a lot of people that said "Blizzard can make believable female characters better than this. This basically dude with boobs meme" said. And honestly I also felt something similar.
That was what I was referring to. Of course Blizzard can design their own characters any way they want. I got nothing against that
Does the expression mean two different things depending on context, or I am simply mistaken in my interpretation of the term ?
Also why does seeing insanely toned bodies on tv equal "feel bad" surely some get inspired?
And response to prior, I have no idea. Maybe it just bleed over from perceptions of Japanese stuff.
You meant Easter egg ?
That being said, I am fine with any label or definition, as long as it is clearly agreed on at the beginning of a conversation. After all, labels are just converational tools and nothing else. Sadly I find that a lot of internet conversations (on any topic ...) tend to suffer from labels being used differently by different persons taking part in the chat, and/or from the meaning of said labels gradually changing over time, leading to confusions and even to accusations of this and that.
But at least here it is pretty clear what is being discussed - I was just confused for a bit by a term being used differently from what I always assumed it meant. Maybe Fan Service is used for "sexy stuff" in Japan, and then this new definition showed up later in the west ? Who knows ...
Anyways - by all means, keep going y'all
Creators create things they personally enjoy and stand for
and Supply comes after demand right ?
If more woman would become creators and more would be interested in X sort of content
then we would have a more healthy distribution. As long as this does not happen, there will be no change
Many men go into industries all across the world to create things THEY want to create. I want to create the game of my dreams. He wants to create the anime, machine, car of his dream.
As long as so few woman take action, this can not change, and you can not blame people following their own interest. Often their vision is dumb and tasetless but it is their right to do what they want to do.
And on the topic, I don't think shirtlessness should always be considered fanservice. For me, fanservice must always be framed in a sexual way for it to truly count as such. Free! definitely had a bit of that in the first season, but not an overflow of it.
People really need to stop using the sexist word all wrongly it's getting really annoyed. Sexist mean that you make a different between women and men. It would be sexist to say " we're not going to do male fan service because it'S outrageous to show their naked body but female fan service is nice" There's as much Male fanservice as female fanservice it's just not the same kind. Most man love curves and naked body, most female watching anime love the perfect guys so cute and tsundere, always romantic and akways lovely scene with the heroine. There's a tone of those it's called Shojo. There's also ecchi for women, it's just rarer because it's only recently that japanese women start to be open and appreciate those kind of thing.
This is as much fanservice as a panty shot, It's a crappy anime that no one watch for the story but only because they are allllll cute guys running after the heroine to make her theirs. As I women i don'T want to see testicule bouncing, I want that, and there's a tones of manga and anime giving it.
Some good anime/manga just implement fan service somehow, though. Though maybe unnecessary. Guess that's why they call it fan service. Knights of Sidonia is one I really like right now. From now and then, the MC would accidentally walk into lady changing room... (and gets beaten up for it), a 3rd gender andro developing female features the first time and her spacesuit explodes from the busts and boobs (still inside base, not out in vacuum), or just people go do photosynthesis (like tanning, but they get nutrients).
Fairy Tail has fan service scenes here and they, usually involving Erza or Lucy.
Game of Thrones has sex scenes here and there. Almost full frontal or back shots.
Strike Back has ppl banging like at least twice every single episode.