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Expresso Texturing Tools - Photoshop Plugin

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minifloppy polycounter lvl 4

Hi everyone, new to the forums even if I've been silently following the community for some years now. Over the past few months I've been dealing with a lot of texture work, so I built a couple of Photoshop extensions to help me in the process. Hoping they might be useful to others, I'm releasing them to the public as I gradually give them an overhaul.

The plugin is open-source and free for both personal and commercial use.

Exporter Logo

EXPORTER

Download - Source

A panel that automatically exports textures to common file formats (TGA, PNG, etc.) out of PSDs containing multiple maps.

Features

  • Quickly export textures from PSDs containing multiple maps organized in groups.
  • Compress multiple maps to a single texture by defining which Photoshop group you want to export in each image channel (RGBA). For example you can have an opacity map saved to the red channel and a specular map saved to the green channel of the same texture.
  • Multiple export formats supported: TGA, PSD, PNG, TIFF, JPEG.
  • Multiple export scaling options: 200%, 100%, 50%, 25%, 12.5%.
  • Filters: apply blur, sharpen, invert on export.
  • Normal maps: normalize normal maps or flip X/Y axes on export.
  • Settings are saved into the document as XMP metadata, so that you're immediately good to go as soon as you reopen the file.

Exporter Overview


Previewer Logo

PREVIEWER

A panel that lets you preview your textures in a realtime 3D viewport directly inside Photoshop.

Note: development on the Previewer panel is on-hold for the moment and the extension is not available for download.

Replies

  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 19
    Impressive, i am going to give this one a go. Looks like something i am going to live with forever ;)
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    @peanut™

    Glad you think it might be useful! Let me know how it goes :)
  • Computron
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    Computron polycounter lvl 7
    Looks impressive indeed. Will have to try it out when I get the chance.

    Any more details on the 3D WebGL previewer?

    Also, putting more info in your post's title may help expose it to more views, this seems like it couldbe really big with a lot of Polycount's texture artists.
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    Thanks for your comments. I've updated the first post with some more details about the previewer. About the post's title, you're right... I tried to edit it, but I guess users aren't allowed to update it?
  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 19
    This could have the potential to be a workflow changer. Congratulation!
  • radiancef0rge
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    radiancef0rge ngon master
    Im sad I cant seem to install this it goes through the process but nothing shows up under extensions and the files arent in the panels folder :(
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    @peanut™
    Thanks, glad you like it.

    @radiancef0rge
    Sorry to hear that! If installation went fine you should see this in Extension Manager:
    extension-manger-cc.png

    Can you please check if a folder called com.expresso exists at the following path? Extensions installed through Extension Manager should end up there.
    C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Adobe\CEP\extensions
    
  • Computron
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    Computron polycounter lvl 7
    I think in order to change the title of the post you will need to get in contact with a Moderator, or I guess you could email them with the address on their contact us page:
    If you wish to contact the team at Polycount please send your emails to wizards(at)polycount.com

    As for Moderators, here are some you can probably PM:
    http://www.polycount.com/forum/member.php?u=13650
    http://www.polycount.com/forum/member.php?u=13643
    http://www.polycount.com/forum/member.php?u=13749
    http://www.polycount.com/forum/member.php?u=17398


    Will the previewer auto load the document on to the model as you make changes, or will it require an export and load button?
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    Thanks for taking the time to find the links! I'm going to drop a PM to a moderator.
    Will the previewer auto load the document on to the model as you make changes, or will it require an export and load button?
    Well, a mix of the two.

    Keeping the preview and document in sync currently requires the targeted layer groups to be exported to a temp folder and loaded onto the model. Even if the process is handled automatically by the panel, it is not realtime.

    Loading the map on the model is pretty fast as it is handled by the panel and does not require Photoshop do to anything, but exporting it can be painfully slow especially for very complex documents.

    I tried three approaches over time to make it as realtime as possible:
    1. trigger an update on each Photoshop events (i.e. used a brush, created a shape, etc.). This degraded performance quite rapidly as you can imagine as the amount of events fired can get quite high.
    2. Poll periodically for updates. Let's say every 500ms we can go through the layer groups of the document and export the ones that have changed since last update. This too can degrade performance quite rapidly, especially when working with large document with lots of layers (traversing the layer stack is a very expensive operation!).
    3. Right now my approach is to update the preview when you hover the mouse on the panel (the same happens with the exporter panel). This requires less interaction than having to click an "update" button and at the same time prevents too frequent updates. Only layer groups that have been modified are actually exported.
    Something I would like to try to play with is the new Generator Plugin architecture. This can remove the need for the export pass, as it makes it possible to retrieve the actual image pixels directly from Photoshop. Unfortunately, even if this has potentials to speed things up a bit, I don't think it would so much to have a true realtime preview.
  • zbrush
    very educational. Thanks
  • Computron
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    Computron polycounter lvl 7
    I was going to mention the Generator system. I hope that pans out, but I have heard a while back that it was poorly documented and not all that developed.
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    Hi everyone, a lot later than originally expected but I've released a new version of the Plugin, which now includes the Previewer Panel. Please see the first post for additional details.
    previewer-overview.png

    Some of the features I originally planned did not make it in for this release, the most notable one being the layer "auto-reload" functionality (you have to press an update button to update the preview for now). Please see the Caveats section in the first post.

    After some battling, all the export code was moved to Generator (both for Exporter and Previewer panels), performance improvements should quite noticeable. There are still some issues to sort out though: Generator is using ImageMagick behind the scene to export the images, and right now I've found no way to tell it not to pre-multiply the alpha channel when exporting to PSD and TIFF. As such, exporting using those formats is somewhat broken right now... Would greatly appreciate some help if someone has experience with ImageMagick :)

    Apart from the Generator integration, most of the code has received an overhaul, so overall performance should have been improved and a lot of bugs fixed.

    Hope you find it useful. Please let me know if you find bugs or have suggestions. :)
  • Computron
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    Computron polycounter lvl 7
    Sweet. I'm gonna load this up when I get home, it looks awesome.
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    Computron wrote: »
    Sweet. I'm gonna load this up when I get home, it looks awesome.

    Hi Computron, did you had a chance to try the extension? :)

    BTW I've released a new version with the following changes:
    0.3.0

    - General: fixed application settings and logs not being saved on Mac.
    - General: updated libs to Ractive 0.6 and THREE.js 0.68.
    - General: fixed file selection window not working on Mac.
    - General: improved handling of data and errors coming from Generator backend, which should help troubleshooting issues.
    - General: several bug fixes and performance enhancements.

    - Exporter: fixed some UI issues.
    - Exporter: fixed issue preventing normal map normalization on export.
    - Exporter: fixed alpha channel not being exported.
    - Exporter: exporting with invalid settings, empty layer groups or groups containing only hidden layers will now raise descriptive errors to user.

    - Previewer: added support for emissive map and color.
    - Previewer: added support for unlit rendering.
    - Previewer: fixed bug resulting in panel freeze when trying to load an OBJ file which no longer is at the specified location.

    With this updates panels should be much more stable and work correctly on Mac. The plugin also now has its own website, so I've cleaned up the first post.
  • kurt_hectic
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    kurt_hectic polycounter lvl 13
    Interesting, I'll test it, thanks for sharing!
  • peanut™
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    peanut™ polycounter lvl 19
    Thanks, just updated and it worked like a charm ...
  • Spicypixel
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    Spicypixel polycounter lvl 6
    Any chance of FBX in addition to OBJ mesh support?
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    Interesting, I'll test it, thanks for sharing!

    Thanks, let me know how it goes!
    peanut™ wrote: »
    Thanks, just updated and it worked like a charm ...

    Glad to hear that!
    Spicypixel wrote: »
    Any chance of FBX in addition to OBJ mesh support?

    FBX support is something I definitely want to add, but I fear it will take some time (afaik Autodesk FBX SDK does not support Javascript/NodeJS directly).

    Do you have any specific need that OBJ can't handle?
  • Kosai106
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    Kosai106 polycounter lvl 13
    This is pretty neat I'll say! Gonna be fun playing around with it over the next couple of days. :)
    However just from the first 10 minutes here, I can already say that there's a few things I'd like to see.

    f808e0ae1e.jpg

    - Gloss map support. Specular isn't simply enough I'm afraid.
    - Physically Based Rendering support. (If possible, if not I'll just stick with Toolbag 2.)
    - FBX support. I can use .OBJ, but I usually export my stuff in .FBX.
    - Slider to increase/decrease tiling.
    - Some sort of imaged based reflections.

    This thing really need gloss to truly shine.
    2575cfd9c1.jpg
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    Kosai106 wrote: »
    This is pretty neat I'll say! Gonna be fun playing around with it over the next couple of days.

    - Gloss map support. Specular isn't simply enough I'm afraid.
    - Physically Based Rendering support. (If possible, if not I'll just stick with Toolbag 2.)
    - FBX support. I can use .OBJ, but I usually export my stuff in .FBX.
    - Slider to increase/decrease tiling.
    - Some sort of imaged based reflections.

    Thanks for taking the time to test the extension and sharing your thoughts! :)

    Gloss map and configurable texture tiling are on my todo list. FBX support is on the list, too, but might take a while (please see my last post).

    About PBR: I've been playing with it a bit, but it will take some more work before I have something stable. It should be totally feasible though (in fact, I need PBR support for my projects too).

    Image based reflections: this is something I'm considering alongside image based lighting for PBR. I guess it's something people would expect.

    Please consider that the extension started as a personal tool/learning experience that only included things I needed at the time. I'm working on it in my spare time, so it will take some time for these new features to be added. :)
  • Kosai106
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    Kosai106 polycounter lvl 13
    minifloppy wrote: »
    Thanks for taking the time to test the extension and sharing your thoughts! :)

    Gloss map and configurable texture tiling are on my todo list. FBX support is on the list, too, but might take a while (please see my last post).

    About PBR: I've been playing with it a bit, but it will take some more work before I have something stable. It should be totally feasible though (in fact, I need PBR support for my projects too).

    Image based reflections: this is something I'm considering alongside image based lighting for PBR. I guess it's something people would expect.

    Please consider that the extension started as a personal tool/learning experience that only included things I needed at the time. I'm working on it in my spare time, so it will take some time for these new features to be added. :)

    No worries man, even as it is now, I think it's great! :)
    Keep it up!
  • Spicypixel
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    Spicypixel polycounter lvl 6
    Yeah no rush on fbx support its just more commonly used in pipelines now. Other than that it's looking good and I shall patiently wait :)
  • RobeOmega
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    RobeOmega polycounter lvl 10
    This looks like it has potential subbed!
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    Kosai106 wrote:
    No worries man, even as it is now, I think it's great! :)
    Keep it up!
    Spicypixel wrote: »
    Yeah no rush on fbx support its just more commonly used in pipelines now. Other than that it's looking good and I shall patiently wait :)

    NP! :) By the way a new version is out, which includes some of your suggestions:
    0.4.0

    - General: panel settings now live in flyout menus, old setting menus were removed (Photoshop CC 2014.2 and up only).
    - General: improved settings management, minor UI fixes.

    - Previewer: all rendering is now done in linear space. All textures (with the exception of normal maps) are assumed to be in sRGB by default, but this behavior is controllable by user.
    - Previewer: improved fill lighting, with support for sky and ground colors.
    - Previewer: shader now correctly implements a Lambert model for diffuse and a Blinn-Phong model for specular.
    - Previewer: added support for Glossiness map.
    - Previewer: texture tiling can now be customized.
    - Previewer: normal map intensity can now be scaled.
    - Previewer: new experimental UI, saves some UI space by showing only the most used settings to user. Other settings are now located into expandable sub-sections.
    - Previewer: fixed issue on Mac when selecting files from a different drive when using relative file paths.
    Rendering quality should have improved a bit thanks to gamma-corrected rendering, but it's a somewhat tricky area and I would really love your feedback! This is an important step towards supporting physically based rendering (which should be in the next release).

    I have some doubts about glossiness, too. Right now the Specular Power slider should be considered more like a "specular range" as it works as a multiplier for the new Glossiness map, and together contribute to the actual specular power used in the shader:
    SpecularPower = 2^(Glossiness * SpecularRange)
    
    I'm not really sure that using an exponential function to calculate SpecularPower is the right way to go as it makes the SpecularRange parameter somewhat difficult to tweak. Also, would you find the ability to specify a base Glossiness color useful?

    Hope you find the changes useful! :)
  • Kosai106
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    Kosai106 polycounter lvl 13
    minifloppy wrote: »
    NP! :) By the way a new version is out, which includes some of your suggestions:

    A little late to the party here, but nice work! Just downloaded the latest version, and it's a lot more useful now that it's got glossiness! :)

    e673a67f44.jpg

    However, I just realized something; I have no idea where it saves screenshots to.
    Any chance we could have an option to select a custom folder to save screenshots into? Perhaps, make it save to the same folder as your document by default?

    Cheers!
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    Kosai106 wrote: »
    A little late to the party here, but nice work! Just downloaded the latest version, and it's a lot more useful now that it's got glossiness! :)

    However, I just realized something; I have no idea where it saves screenshots to.
    Any chance we could have an option to select a custom folder to save screenshots into? Perhaps, make it save to the same folder as your document by default?

    Cheers!

    No worries about that, I've been kinda silent lately too! About the screenshots, at the moment they are saved into the Documents folder, but I agree that having a configurable path would be nice. I'll add it to the rendering tab, so that it will be configurable on a per-document basis.

    Cool model/texture btw! :)
  • miki3d
    This tools looks really amazing and it's what I'm looking for manage textures export but unfortunately I'm not able tu run it :poly127:. I have Extension Manager 7.3.2.39 and Photoshop CC 14.0, I installed expresso and I can see it on EManager but not on Windows->Extensions :(...checked the folder and it's installed on C\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Adobe\CEPServiceManager4\extensions\com.expresso

    Hope to solve it, really can't wait to optimize my work pipeline with your tool :)
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    Unfortunately you've run into a known issue with the installer that will detect Photoshop CC 14.x as a valid version while it is in fact not supported. You'll need Photoshop CC 2014 or newer to run the plugin. Sorry about that!
  • CreativeSheep
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    CreativeSheep polycounter lvl 8
    I have a few questions on how to use, if anyone uses it frequently ? I've contacted the author, no response. :(:)
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    I have a few questions on how to use, if anyone uses it frequently ? I've contacted the author, no response. :(:)

    I just replied to your email, hope that addressed your questions, sorry if it took longer than usual! If you have more questions feel free to ask them here or by email. :)
  • ReMix3D
    Hello minifloppy !

    I've been using your plugin for some month now, and it's awesome !

    But I have some issues when one of the group I use to export has a layer mask, the affected channels get completely crazy on the final image !

    I use the group mask in order to mask out non used pixels of the uv layout, so I can quickly flattens&duplicate the group, apply mask, and extend the uv island borders with the minimum filter (or the one at the bottom of this page, which is awesome).

    For now, my solution was to disable the group mask, do a little action that automates the process of flattening, filtering and placing the new layer on the top of the group, then push the texture export button.

    What would be great for me, is the addition of two features :
    - Correct support of the group masks
    - Ability to fill the transparent pixels of the source groups in a way same as the mentioned filter (minimum / solidify) when exporting. Or even an option to apply custom actions or filter when exporting ?

    But still, your plugin is awesome !
  • CreativeSheep
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    CreativeSheep polycounter lvl 8
    ReMix, minifloppy has been helpful in answering my questions, but I haven't heard from him as I'm not grasping the workflow of this fabulous tool. I'm hoping you would be able to help, in helping me fill in some gaps in understanding ? :)
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    @ReMix3D

    Glad you put the plugin to good use! :)

    You've hit a long standing bug that occurs when trying to export a group that does not extend to the document bounds (i.e. because you have a mask, or because the group is composed only of semi-transparent layers). In this case, the Photoshop API only returns the opaque area of the image. The crazy result you're seeing is the plugin trying to adapt the returned image to the selected power of two export resolution, failing miserably in the process.

    I've been investigating some ways to solve the issue, but wasn't able to found one that would work reliably and decided to put the issue on hold as I thought maps with transparent backgrounds were not so common... But I can totally see why this feature would be useful in your case! I'll try to wrap my head around the issue again in the future.
    - Ability to fill the transparent pixels of the source groups in a way same as the mentioned filter (minimum / solidify) when exporting. Or even an option to apply custom actions or filter when exporting ?
    If I understand it correctly, the action adds some edge padding to the image? I've been trying to stay away from everything that could possibly modify the source image in non-predictable ways as it's easy to screw things up...

    @CreativeSheep

    I didn't forget about you! :) But I'm getting quite a lot of emails regarding the plugin and it's not easy to always keep-up with them. I'm replying to you here because I think you might be experiencing the same issue of ReMix3D. Can you please make sure you have an opaque background in all your groups before exporting?
  • ReMix3D
    @minifloppy

    Yep, I was talking of a sort of edge padding. I understand the goal of the tool is not to modify the source image, but since it's use is for creating textures, having a way to automate correction of the "I'm getting bad colors where my uv seams are" issue would be a cool addition.

    Also, I'm also sort of a developper myself (lets say a technical artist), if you're up to share your source code (web transfer, source control ...) I could help you find how to get around those issue (even though I'm quite busy at the moment) ?
  • CreativeSheep
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    CreativeSheep polycounter lvl 8
    minifloppy or ReMix3D here is a video on how I've been trying to use it.
  • kio
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    kio polycounter lvl 16
    just wanted to say thank you - using it for a few weeks now, its just easy and slick (no need for the viewer though)
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    @ReMix3D

    Yes, some kind of built-in support for edge padding would be great indeed.
    Also, I'm also sort of a developper myself (lets say a technical artist), if you're up to share your source code (web transfer, source control ...) I could help you find how to get around those issue (even though I'm quite busy at the moment) ?

    Thanks! I always wanted to publicly release the source code alongside the plugin, but never got around it as the code needs some cleanup first (mainly remove dependencies on other personal projects). I'll give it a shot over the weekend.

    @CreativeSheep

    Link doesn't work: "Permission Denied Sorry, there is no video here.".

    @kio

    Glad you found it useful! :) Completely off-topic note: I saw on your website that you worked on Airborn, I remember playing the UT3 mod... Any news about the project?
  • CreativeSheep
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    CreativeSheep polycounter lvl 8
    minifloppy try this link. :)
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    It seems the same problem ReMix3D was experiencing... Can you try adding a layer filled with white at the bottom of each group and export? Actually, the fill color doesn't matter, as long as the layer takes up the full image.
  • CreativeSheep
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    CreativeSheep polycounter lvl 8
    Adding a layer filled with whatever color worked :) This seriously needs to be fixed, whereas I don't need to add a layer as a base layer, this brings me to a few questions about expresso.

    Whatever layer color I have for the background, or base layer for the group, when I choose a channel, whether that is Red, Green or Blue it is inherited into the export, for example; if the base background layer that I created for the group is blue and I choose green for the channel in expresso the background will be black, if I choose the blue channel, the background will be blue, those are the results I'm getting ?

    As well, if I have a texture in a group, and I export the blue channel, my texture is not the original texture color, it's a blue color, unless I only have a RGB channel, is this how expresso works, but in your help file for the exporter, you have a normal, roughness, opacity, albedo group, and there is a roughness (red) channel and a opacity (green) channel, I assume the roughness channel when exported doesn't look red, and the opacity channel doesn't look green ?

    Complaint about alpha channels, I shouldn't have to make a separate group for alpha channels, I should be able to select the alpha channel from the channels in the image, instead what I have to do is; create a group, make a layer for the object that will be the alpha channel, make a layer below this alpha layer, as addressed earlier then export the group; then another hiccup arises, if I choose to export the red channel and an alpha group, I don't get both exported, instead I get only the alpha group ?
    minifloppy wrote: »
    It seems the same problem ReMix3D was experiencing... Can you try adding a layer filled with white at the bottom of each group and export? Actually, the fill color doesn't matter, as long as the layer takes up the full image.
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    I think you might have misunderstood how the plugin works (or maybe I misunderstood your post :) ).

    When you select a group for export you're exporting that group into a channel of the exported image, you're not selecting which channel of the source image you want to export. This is useful when you want to compress multiple greyscale maps (such as opacity, glossiness, roughness, specular, whatever) into a single output texture to save up texture space.

    If you need to export a full RGB image, you'll need to output it to all the RGB channels of the exported image. Otherwise, even if Photoshop will show the output colored either in red, green or blue depending on which export channel you chose, what you really have is an image with two black channels and a greyscale representation of your RGB input.
    Complaint about alpha channels, I shouldn't have to make a separate group for alpha channels
    The plugin relies on the fact that you work on your maps in non-destructive ways, by using multiple layers and groups, that you can later easily export. This isn't possible if you work on the alpha channels of the PSD directly, and it's the reason why exporting from alpha channels isn't supported.

    Hope this helps. :)
  • CreativeSheep
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    CreativeSheep polycounter lvl 8
    This is correct, if I export groups as either red,green or blue as in this example, this is the correct outcome, otherwise I'd have to export the group as RGB which merges the group together ?

    ps_group_layers.jpg

    result_expresso.jpg
    When you select a group for export you're exporting that group into a channel of the exported image, you're not selecting which channel of the source image you want to export. This is useful when you want to compress multiple greyscale maps (such as opacity, glossiness, roughness, specular, whatever) into a single output texture to save up texture space.

    If you need to export a full RGB image, you'll need to output it to all the RGB channels of the exported image. Otherwise, even if Photoshop will show the output colored either in red, green or blue depending on which export channel you chose, what you really have is an image with two black channels and a greyscale representation of your RGB input.
  • CreativeSheep
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    CreativeSheep polycounter lvl 8
    Thanks to mini-floppy everything is solved and understood :)
  • CreativeSheep
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    CreativeSheep polycounter lvl 8
    Expresso needs to be updated for PsCC-2015 :)
  • kio
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    kio polycounter lvl 16
    adding exr as an export option would be nice too! (been working on some lightmaps .. ) ;)
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    Expresso 0.4.3 is released with support for CC2015. The only change in this version is compatibility with the new Photoshop release, so there's no need to update if you haven't done the jump from CC2014 yet.
    kio wrote: »
    adding exr as an export option would be nice too! (been working on some lightmaps .. ) ;)

    EXR support would be nice indeed! I looked into it a couple of weeks ago, but unfortunately the API I'm using only supports 8 bit output, so the only way to export to EXR would be to use Extendscript, which is way slower!

    A viable option, at least in the beginning, might be to support exporting full images only. This way you'll lose the ability to export into individual channels, but will still be able to use the plugin to store the export path and do one-click exports. Do you think that might work for you?
  • CreativeSheep
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    CreativeSheep polycounter lvl 8
    A viable option, at least in the beginning, might be to support exporting full images only. This way you'll lose the ability to export into individual channels, but will still be able to use the plugin to store the export path and do one-click exports. Do you think that might work for you?

    I think I brought up EXR support a while ago, give it a go, see how it works :)

    Thanks for updating for 2015 :)
  • kio
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    kio polycounter lvl 16
    minifloppy wrote: »
    A viable option, at least in the beginning, might be to support exporting full images only. This way you'll lose the ability to export into individual channels, but will still be able to use the plugin to store the export path and do one-click exports. Do you think that might work for you?

    yes i think i wouldn't need the channel packing for cases where i use exr as a file format ( mostly cubemaps & lightmap stuff), i think i have my own one click exporter somewhere around, but well you know, it would be nice to have it all in one tool - and yours does a really good job already :)
  • Diargon345
    Why can't I see the textures? nbr6uo.jpg
  • minifloppy
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    minifloppy polycounter lvl 4
    Diargon345 wrote: »
    Why can't I see the textures?

    Sorry to hear you're experiencing issues!

    I'll need some more info to be able to help you out i.e.: which Photoshop/OS version are you running? Is the texture loaded from a layer group or from an external file? Do you get any error dialogs? Are you experiencing the issue with all maps or only with specific ones (i.e. diffuse, normal, etc.)?
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