I see you have made some improvements, did you start over?
Also i would suggest to remove the highest subdiv level of your current sculpt or go back a level or two, and start tweaking the ribcage and chest area.
here is a good reference shot of the front of a regular male with muscles visible.
If you can visualise the muscles, or atleast the ones on top you can get a lot of aid in sculpting the chest and abs (pectoralis major, rectus abdominus and the external obliques)
[
Its not just about anatomical details though. Its about overall anatomical structure and proportions. Your's are way off and no matter how much armor you throw on top of it the underlying problems won't go away. It's going to look wrong no matter what you do unless you get the anatomy right. Turn the subdivisions down and get the proportions and structure right. Everything will look much better and you will have an easier time with it.
@Howard: Anatomy that is not seen because of clothing should NOT be an excuse for unpolished anatomy. Examine oneself in the mirror. One's body fat and anatomical features affect how clothes fall onto a body. This is why female shirts are sewn differently than male shirts, because their breasts require certain changes to the way clothing falls onto their bodies. Bad anatomy is going to make bad clothing as you sculpt the clothing, and as we move forward with software like Marvelous Designer, your anatomy is definitely going to affect how clothes fall onto a character because the clothing conforms to the body, not the other way around. Right now issues like your profile view lacking the curves you see in a T-pose male in real life are NOT there. Fix your anatomy and get your whole body gestures nailed down. Thank you for understanding, but now DO.
Fix your anatomy. If you're going to learn and refine your solutions to mistakes, do it in school instead of laying it off to the workforce where your time is limited.
The problem isn't that the Topology isn't dense, it's that it's not even. You don't have squares where you can have squares, instead you have various sized rhombuses. It doesn't lend itself to what we generally call "clean practices" where geometry is unevenly distributed. Clean it up, get professional/production ready.
You don't have "some anatomy errors around the pecks".
You have a lumpy clay man with arms to his knees and disjointed shoulders, and lacking proper muscle and bone structure like trapezius muscle and a pelvic ridge. It looks like a burnt plastic mannequin.
This thread made me sad. There has been so much good advice ignored/thrown back which sucks. My uni experience was much the same as some of the people who have posted here from the same course, there are and will always be people who just cant do it, and imo its the universities fault for not failing them along time ago, and quite frankly 'howard' should not have even got past the first year, but to the universities the more students that pass the more money they make. I also dont think university should tell students they have to post here, if you're gonna force people to make a blog/production diary do it on a university ran website, if students want to post here they will.
I think the main problem though, is not the lack of anatomy skills or anything modelling related its a straight up shitty attitude from someone who cannot critically analyse their own work, and refutes any sort of constructive criticism, and whats frustrating is how many people at university have this attitude, seriously some people just need to grow the fuck up. How do you ever expect to grow as an artist/person if you cant take crit.
Howard you need to start again, right from the beginning, forget anything you have learnt and start over, because quite frankly unless you go back to the basics(making a box level) you will end up on a wall at a studio of the worst applicants to send their showreels/portfolios. Quite honestly i would start doing some life drawing classes, make super basic assets, learn from the pros; do tutorials, watch all the gdc vault/youtube behind the scenes videos you can get, read papers on techniques used, its one thing to love games its another to love making them, surround yourself with knowledge and listen to what people say and then try to apply it, it doesn't matter if its still shit people will respond to you trying and you will get better. I want you to get better, because in a year or two you could look back at this thread and realize how much you have grown, but you have to want it.
Be aware that the majority of the body is underneath armour, and is simply never seen.
I can understand issues about anatomy around the pecks and the chest- but it is never seen...
that's not an excuse for bad anatomy. if anything it should make you want to do a better job. if the body underneath is right, you'll find everything else fits right. if it's wrong, it'll fit wrong.
Even though these comments are harsh they are honest and accurate, do take them as advice and dont be scared by them.
Also having a good anatomy now will let you use your current sculpt as a little cheat note for future sculpts, the first is ALWAYS the most difficult, i grant you that, but if you push through and get this to the highest level of finish you can achieve, you can then use the body as an example for your next sculpt, and that one after, and the one after that.
As you make new sculpts you will gain more skill and certain shapes will become stuck in your head. It's like driving a car, at the start you have to think: "clutch, brakes, shift, clutch, gas, steer, indicator on, indicator off, center mirror check, right mirror check, road check" it's crazy and not enjoyable at all. But eventually you pass your driving exam and after a few weeks you don't even think about those things, you just think "go there, indicate your direction, add more revs to accelerate faster, reduce speed, get ready to stop".
The same applies for sculpts and anatomy, eventually you will learn enough just to "make a burly dude that's tall" and you will just create one, however now, just like with driving, you have all these parts that you have to take into account by going by every one of them in a meticulous way. "torso, shoulders, arms, legs, pectoralis major, latissimus dorsi, trapezius, platysma, scapularis, add volume here, remove there, stretch this, squish this, rotate that ect." its hard and at the start maybe not even fun, but eventually it will "click", and after that you're ready to create whatever you can imagine!
I can't see why there are "pores" on the skin when the anatomy still looks like a piece of melted wax.
Howard- I know this is for school and you are on a time constraint, but if this were me, I would withdraw from the class and return to fight another day. Even the most powerful armies in history have used this strategy to rebuild, rethink, and re-execute a winning plan. At this point, to make a halfway decent model, you would need to just start over.
I see you made some progress on the overall form, but that is not good enough to try and throw armor and clothing over. It will not solve the fact that you have very bad anatomy all over the model. Also, you have really bad topology on all the accessories which is translating into a lot of shading errors and some kind of vert/edge pinching that I can see all over the place. When you try to sculpt those pieces you will never get a good result.
that's not an excuse for bad anatomy. if anything it should make you want to do a better job. if the body underneath is right, you'll find everything else fits right. if it's wrong, it'll fit wrong.
Definitely. Armor plating is usually formed from the silhouette of the chest from what I've noticed. There's also the more ballooned cuirass. Even so, attempting to use Howard's example would result in unwanted proportion. It'd probably even restrict movement.
It's not awful, It's very much comparable to my first character steps in 3D. I would say though, stay out of sculpting packages until you can actually model a decent enough character.
It's not awful, It's very much comparable to my first character steps in 3D. I would say though, stay out of sculpting packages until you can actually model a decent enough character.
I'll be grabbing this piece of advice for myself, thank you
never saw so much of feedback and so much of people's will to help someone within such a ignorant reply(not giving a f*ck reply) from OP, its quite shame
I see that you just continue working on your first mesh since the torso has the same wrong shape as it had before and your feet are way to long. You want to move on to unwrapping but your sculpt is far away from done. Saying that having right anatomy is not that important since it is cover with armour is just so wrong, right anatomy is crucial! Your armour isn't done good as well but most people will give you feedback about anatomy since it should be the first step, detail comes later. The poly flow of your low poly mesh is pretty messy and divided in a strange way.
If I was you I would go back to square one and start with a base mesh and get crit on that before going any further. Eevn getting crit on a base mesh head,body,hands blah blah blah in seperate chunks is ever better so you know your on the right track before progressing.
Polycount is attracted to these threads like a moth to a flame.....
Yeah, why is that?
Seems like previously known polycounters get a shitload of praise (or if it's part of AAA project it's always automatically awesome work), aspiring artists get next to nothing and complete beginners get a shitload of feedback. This thread is a perfect example.
This could help you creating a proper head model. You could export this to zbrush to do some refinements but there is no need to create it completely in zbrush just becase others do it
Seems like previously known polycounters get a shitload of praise (or if it's part of AAA project it's always automatically awesome work), aspiring artists get next to nothing and complete beginners get a shitload of feedback. This thread is a perfect example.
if you don't get any feedback your work is neither horrible or fantastic.
Tried to read this long ass thread but quickly realized where it went.
I'll join the others in saying you have a wonderful thread here with some priceless feedback from some of the best out there. Polycount is an amazing place to learn and you should stick around, and keep at what you want to do, if there's one place you can learn all you need to know about game art, it's definitely Polycount.
I'll add what little I can offer to the table:
Where you are in your "road toward skill", is definitely not in a stage where you can competently create a fully clothed, textured character. That's fine, no one is born there.
But in today's world with the abundance of information, it's easy to think you should just pick up a wacom tablet, pop up ZBrush and viola, you got a fully sculpted awesome character.
You should take a step back, and consider your actions.
Screw that school project. In the time given you won't get an amazing character going. Do whatever is needed to pass, and start learning afterwards (if that's really your dream profession of course).
Take every step of the learning as a big project.
Studying anatomy should be a big focus for you for quite a few months.
Practicing your sculptural skills in real life and in ZBrush should be something you do constantly. Pick up a rock, put it next to you, sculpt it in clay.
Take the same rock, make it in ZBrush, compare the 3.
Look at your hand. Only your hand. Sculpt it in ZBrush till your eyes bleed. Do the same with any other body part (censure the screenshots though).
Making a full character is overwhelming, since doing just the elbow is ridiculously hard if you don't know the anatomy of an elbow and you lack the skills to control the clay/digital clay.
It takes time, and should be done step, by step, by step, in small manageable steps. Going from nothing to full character is like trying to run across the country after never running ever before. It's impossible.
Any advice you get in this thread, no matter how good, will not make this current project become an amazing masterpiece. It WILL make it better, but it won't be a masterpiece.
But if you keep going, and keep sharing, and keep going even after bashing your head at the wall because you hate feeling humbled in the face of criticism (everyone does), trust me, each time you make something, it'll be better than the last.
But all of that is true only if this is truly something you want to learn. This is DEFINITELY not where you should be if this is not a dream job for you. It requires way too much work to be worth anything in the market for anyone not completely devoted to ever do.
Good luck, hope to see something of yours posted somewhere here a year from now.
Seems like previously known polycounters get a shitload of praise (or if it's part of AAA project it's always automatically awesome work), aspiring artists get next to nothing and complete beginners get a shitload of feedback. This thread is a perfect example.
people who obviously need a ton of help get it and people that are producing amazing art get feedback. If you're just middle of the road, you just have to work on getting better, you should know enough to improve on your own.
People who produce great art get praise, not feedback. People who need a lot of help get it because there are way more people who can help them and have time to help them.
If you're in the middle, the only people who can help you are pros and a select few of the people above you around the middle. It sucks, but hey, it means you're probably good enough to get a job somewhere.
Replies
Also, please even out your Lowpoly wires. Right now they're zigzagging and seem all over the place.
I see you have made some improvements, did you start over?
Also i would suggest to remove the highest subdiv level of your current sculpt or go back a level or two, and start tweaking the ribcage and chest area.
here is a good reference shot of the front of a regular male with muscles visible.
If you can visualise the muscles, or atleast the ones on top you can get a lot of aid in sculpting the chest and abs (pectoralis major, rectus abdominus and the external obliques)
[
I can understand issues about anatomy around the pecks and the chest- but it is never seen...
Also, JadeEyePanda: did not think to alpha those. I agree with the topology being too dense, will look into that.
Fix your anatomy. If you're going to learn and refine your solutions to mistakes, do it in school instead of laying it off to the workforce where your time is limited.
The problem isn't that the Topology isn't dense, it's that it's not even. You don't have squares where you can have squares, instead you have various sized rhombuses. It doesn't lend itself to what we generally call "clean practices" where geometry is unevenly distributed. Clean it up, get professional/production ready.
You have a lumpy clay man with arms to his knees and disjointed shoulders, and lacking proper muscle and bone structure like trapezius muscle and a pelvic ridge. It looks like a burnt plastic mannequin.
Stop using Zbrush.
Start with a proper base mesh.
I think the main problem though, is not the lack of anatomy skills or anything modelling related its a straight up shitty attitude from someone who cannot critically analyse their own work, and refutes any sort of constructive criticism, and whats frustrating is how many people at university have this attitude, seriously some people just need to grow the fuck up. How do you ever expect to grow as an artist/person if you cant take crit.
Howard you need to start again, right from the beginning, forget anything you have learnt and start over, because quite frankly unless you go back to the basics(making a box level) you will end up on a wall at a studio of the worst applicants to send their showreels/portfolios. Quite honestly i would start doing some life drawing classes, make super basic assets, learn from the pros; do tutorials, watch all the gdc vault/youtube behind the scenes videos you can get, read papers on techniques used, its one thing to love games its another to love making them, surround yourself with knowledge and listen to what people say and then try to apply it, it doesn't matter if its still shit people will respond to you trying and you will get better. I want you to get better, because in a year or two you could look back at this thread and realize how much you have grown, but you have to want it.
/rant over
that's not an excuse for bad anatomy. if anything it should make you want to do a better job. if the body underneath is right, you'll find everything else fits right. if it's wrong, it'll fit wrong.
Also having a good anatomy now will let you use your current sculpt as a little cheat note for future sculpts, the first is ALWAYS the most difficult, i grant you that, but if you push through and get this to the highest level of finish you can achieve, you can then use the body as an example for your next sculpt, and that one after, and the one after that.
As you make new sculpts you will gain more skill and certain shapes will become stuck in your head. It's like driving a car, at the start you have to think: "clutch, brakes, shift, clutch, gas, steer, indicator on, indicator off, center mirror check, right mirror check, road check" it's crazy and not enjoyable at all. But eventually you pass your driving exam and after a few weeks you don't even think about those things, you just think "go there, indicate your direction, add more revs to accelerate faster, reduce speed, get ready to stop".
The same applies for sculpts and anatomy, eventually you will learn enough just to "make a burly dude that's tall" and you will just create one, however now, just like with driving, you have all these parts that you have to take into account by going by every one of them in a meticulous way. "torso, shoulders, arms, legs, pectoralis major, latissimus dorsi, trapezius, platysma, scapularis, add volume here, remove there, stretch this, squish this, rotate that ect." its hard and at the start maybe not even fun, but eventually it will "click", and after that you're ready to create whatever you can imagine!
Howard- I know this is for school and you are on a time constraint, but if this were me, I would withdraw from the class and return to fight another day. Even the most powerful armies in history have used this strategy to rebuild, rethink, and re-execute a winning plan. At this point, to make a halfway decent model, you would need to just start over.
I see you made some progress on the overall form, but that is not good enough to try and throw armor and clothing over. It will not solve the fact that you have very bad anatomy all over the model. Also, you have really bad topology on all the accessories which is translating into a lot of shading errors and some kind of vert/edge pinching that I can see all over the place. When you try to sculpt those pieces you will never get a good result.
We are trying to help.
proportions, which is good to know. What you have yet to do is
outline your understanding of anatomy. You're antsy when it comes to
Z-brush. Is there a reason as to why your attention is so focused on
the sculpting phase? You're not making this easier on yourself by
hopping into Z-brush. You're deluding yourself to be honest. When you
sculpt, you exaggerate so much of the detail. There's landmarks that
are important. You need to understand these landmarks. You also must
get a better understanding of plane changes. Your chest looks like
giant lump of muscle or fat. Howard... You have to study this and
not some of it.
Definitely. Armor plating is usually formed from the silhouette of the chest from what I've noticed. There's also the more ballooned cuirass. Even so, attempting to use Howard's example would result in unwanted proportion. It'd probably even restrict movement.
I'll be grabbing this piece of advice for myself, thank you
Howard, its getting better....sort the body proportions out and you'll be in much better shape to start on the rest.....
If I was you I would go back to square one and start with a base mesh and get crit on that before going any further. Eevn getting crit on a base mesh head,body,hands blah blah blah in seperate chunks is ever better so you know your on the right track before progressing.
Seems like previously known polycounters get a shitload of praise (or if it's part of AAA project it's always automatically awesome work), aspiring artists get next to nothing and complete beginners get a shitload of feedback. This thread is a perfect example.
http://www.3dtotal.com/index_tutorial_detailed.php?catDisplay=1&roPos=1&id=1804&page=3#.UoJ9__lWySp
This could help you creating a proper head model. You could export this to zbrush to do some refinements but there is no need to create it completely in zbrush just becase others do it
if you don't get any feedback your work is neither horrible or fantastic.
Tried to read this long ass thread but quickly realized where it went.
I'll join the others in saying you have a wonderful thread here with some priceless feedback from some of the best out there. Polycount is an amazing place to learn and you should stick around, and keep at what you want to do, if there's one place you can learn all you need to know about game art, it's definitely Polycount.
I'll add what little I can offer to the table:
Where you are in your "road toward skill", is definitely not in a stage where you can competently create a fully clothed, textured character. That's fine, no one is born there.
But in today's world with the abundance of information, it's easy to think you should just pick up a wacom tablet, pop up ZBrush and viola, you got a fully sculpted awesome character.
You should take a step back, and consider your actions.
Screw that school project. In the time given you won't get an amazing character going. Do whatever is needed to pass, and start learning afterwards (if that's really your dream profession of course).
Take every step of the learning as a big project.
Studying anatomy should be a big focus for you for quite a few months.
Practicing your sculptural skills in real life and in ZBrush should be something you do constantly. Pick up a rock, put it next to you, sculpt it in clay.
Take the same rock, make it in ZBrush, compare the 3.
Look at your hand. Only your hand. Sculpt it in ZBrush till your eyes bleed. Do the same with any other body part (censure the screenshots though).
Making a full character is overwhelming, since doing just the elbow is ridiculously hard if you don't know the anatomy of an elbow and you lack the skills to control the clay/digital clay.
It takes time, and should be done step, by step, by step, in small manageable steps. Going from nothing to full character is like trying to run across the country after never running ever before. It's impossible.
Any advice you get in this thread, no matter how good, will not make this current project become an amazing masterpiece. It WILL make it better, but it won't be a masterpiece.
But if you keep going, and keep sharing, and keep going even after bashing your head at the wall because you hate feeling humbled in the face of criticism (everyone does), trust me, each time you make something, it'll be better than the last.
But all of that is true only if this is truly something you want to learn. This is DEFINITELY not where you should be if this is not a dream job for you. It requires way too much work to be worth anything in the market for anyone not completely devoted to ever do.
Good luck, hope to see something of yours posted somewhere here a year from now.
I was replying to this:
people who obviously need a ton of help get it and people that are producing amazing art get feedback. If you're just middle of the road, you just have to work on getting better, you should know enough to improve on your own.
If you're in the middle, the only people who can help you are pros and a select few of the people above you around the middle. It sucks, but hey, it means you're probably good enough to get a job somewhere.