Advanced 3D Modelling WIP, for uni
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Hello, in my final year of uni and that means the final bridge! Better off getting as much feedback and opinions as possible!
Correct the issue now while I still can!
There is an assignment, the brief is here
Essentially, I am tasked with redesigning and recreating a character from a fighting game.
I have chosen Bass Armstrong from the Dead or Alive series.
Correct the issue now while I still can!
There is an assignment, the brief is here
Essentially, I am tasked with redesigning and recreating a character from a fighting game.
I have chosen Bass Armstrong from the Dead or Alive series.
Replies
It might help to increase wrist/thigh width, as the current width doesn't really compliment the rest of the guys build. He seems stocky, then the wrists and thighs are very lean in comparison.
Edit: Just as a note for the future, work on your body proportions before working on the armour. I used to create them all at the same time and it took longer than it would have then to just work on the limbs and ligaments first.
Using those aspects to recreate a new one, for a fighting game, and that new one was drawn. That is my reference.
I understand concerning the head: did not feel 100% right to be, but really needed new opinions.
The aim was for stocky, because it is a recreate (that is going to be taken into ZBrush. I can understand widening the wrists and thighs, complimenting the general weight of the character.
Can understand that taking longer! My methodology was to create him first and then model the armour around him.
Realistically he was a little odd in places, his wrists and hips were a little thin, and I felt his ass was too thick while his shins were too thin for such a stocky character.
His head was too square too, which is annoying and weird. Made major changes to his head while at the same time ensuring the character was 6 heads high, as denoted in the redesigns.
Ideally, I aim to iron out issue concerning proportions and anatomy as soon as possible, he wants taking into ZBrush and then needs to be retopologised, there are deadlines and commitments to meet.
Look at the side view, things don't really match up compared to a real human male. Look at your head, feet, torso etc. and compare it to reference of real people. You can use the silhouettes to help you with proportions.
So you are going to take this model to zbrush right? You can work on proportions in zbrush as well. First I recommend to make a base mesh of a human male and give it right proportions before you start making the armour and the rest of his clothing + gear.
Look at this: http://wiki.polycount.com/BaseMesh
Basemesh tutorial: [ame="
Good luck
Usually I draw ladies, and not a hulk <_<" Sry.
Thanks for the feedback!
I understand you're running short on time, but it's doable in a week and I think would produce a better result. You might also just think you can make the changes needed in good time and not have to worry about recreating the base mesh entirely.
Build clean armor geometry first. RIght now, it's way too lumpy. Looks like clay instead of metal.
Good on you for posting WIPs.
Here is an example of a low resolution mesh, the big faces allow you to quickly shape the proportions to your needs and afterwards you can subdivide it and you'll end up with smooth flowing shapes
The shapes on your body are defined by fat and the muscles underneath your skin. The picture posted above by JadeEyePanda is a good example of what you should look at. The feet of your model are still wrong, the lines of your model don't really follow the lines of a human body. You should make proportional changes on a low subD level in zbrush, your current level is to high and it to soon to add detail (also forget about the armour for now just concentrate on the proportions of the body).
You should use reference as a guide, you can insert picture planes in Zbrush and Maya to help you.
I agree with other people that posted, you should make a new base mesh with the right proportions. I added a videotutorial in my previous post, check it out!
Good luck
Focus on the basics. Focus very hard. Take something like 500 or 1000 triangles and make a good looking basic human shape.
Stop detailing.
Get back to building out solid base geometry first. Do not attempt to salvage your current mesh.
You can do better with better proportions and lower-res geometry that is clear and distinct in form.
Sadly, I saw a similar result in my final year at University during the Character Creation module; in that each student was given 11 weeks to make a full game res character, and each week demonstrate their progress on said character.
We were informed of this before the semester started, and so I spent my summer making base meshes from youtube videos; I asked questions on polycount in regards to topology and in general made sure I understood the workflow of zbrush subdivision levels too.
Now, my character wasn't the best; however my sculpt was one of them. This was purely do to choices on the retop I had made, and without much knowledge of baking I didn't get as much of the detail across as I wanted.
This thread is obviously ran by a student who, didn't plan; didn't practice, doesn't spend alot of time doing the work in the first place as it all seems to be immediate changes, nothing tried or used as a chance to learn anything new i.e. no silhouetting, no varieties or comparisons...
All I can suggest to the student here is to practice, compare yourself to students in your year, whom are the best and compare yourself to industry standard and see how big the gap is; only you can decide how big that gets; and if you want to truly make it smaller.
Sorry if you feel its a rant, but it's really not; its just some friendly advice to listen and practice
Your character's feet look like flippers. The upper torso is lean while the sides view of the character looks completely inaccurate. He doesn't even look to be able to support the upper half of his body. The shoulders look grossly exaggerated and the face looks like it was plastered on.
You keep mutinying these people's attempts to help you in favor of something that seems to be more blatantly obvious like the simple proportion base of an average human, but you don't use your common sense. You need to use it and stop rushing things.
I'm not some professional artist, but I can definitely say that the people at polycount offer damn good support towards, pretty much anything you have an issue about. If you're attempting to become a Game Developer, CG artist, etc, then you are REALLY going to have to pay attention, because from what it seems, your University years seem like baby steps.
Couldnt agree with you more Melodeus
University teaches you the basics, I know from myself that my current portfolio shows absolutely no graduate work.
For you Howard I would really listen to what everyone is saying and take a step back.
Spend a few days watching Zbrush youtube videos on anatomy or 3ds max/Maya videos on anatomy with that your'll have a good foundation to work with and less geometry and information to move about like you would with Zbrush.
Stop what you're doing now and go back and get a better foundation to work with.
A character with correct proportions and with good detail will look a hell of a lot better with a character with bad proportions and good detail.
Good luck.
However, listen to everyone else and learn form before anything else.
EDIT: I started out at your level, pretty much. Maybe even worse, when I entered school in 2008. Now I am working as an environment artist in a AAA production, and just about a week ago got promoted to oversee the technical aspect of all the assets in production. So, you can definitely do it, too. But you HAVE to listen. Realize you know less than nothing, and everyone else has something you can learn from. Not taking advice is probably the worst thing you can do. It's hard for everyone, most people actually suck at taking advice. But do it, and you improve much faster.
You are much better off taking this in small and easy steps. Trying to take each step as a separate project and not continuing until the current step is complete and looking correct.
There are multiple approaches but i'd suggest this on the modelling part of your assignment:
Step1: gather anatomical reference
Good reference is key and can make a project go quicker and easier.
Gather photos, anatomical drawings, proportion charts, front/side/top views, anything that can help you get an accurate body shape.
Step2: Establish a correct humanoid figure
In Max/Maya
Every bipedal character basically has the same shape when they aren't wearing clothes or armor. Therefore you can aim to create a good humanoid model first. This model has a low resolution of around 500 to 1000 polys.
This is where you can make sure all proportions are correct, The size of the head, the length of the arms, the thickness of the waist, the size of the feet. Though this model wont have details yet like fingers, noses, lips or ears. You can already start working on a good topology, use quads (4 sided polygons) wherever you can and avoid Ngons (5sided polys), Tri's are alright but only use them when you have no choice.
First get good proportions. Because you are working with so little it's easy to change things around until they "feel" well.
You can use Zbrush to help you push and pull the character into shape but stay at the low resolution, don't subdivide yet.
Step3: Rough details
Back into max/maya
Add fingers, toes (if your character wear sandals and a rough facial shape, think of the forhead/nose/eyesocket parts) These should have just enough polygons to give them the proper definition/silhouette.
Step4: Make a naked guy part1!
You can subdivide 1 maybe 2 times and see what kind of detail you can add with those extra polys. Add a muscle structure, give the guy knees/elbows, add knuckles, nostrils, a chin, eyelids stuff like that. This character should still be fairly low resolution
Step5: Make a naked guy part2!
Now you have a rough outline of what your character is going to look like, start another subdivision, refining certain areas, like the head, look up face sculpting tutorials for instance, add more detail to muscle structure. Add stuff under the skin that you can see well, think of the wrists, ankles fingernails, look into muscles and how they look exactly, if your guy is buffed (and seeing he's some kind of roman gladiator) this is vital.
Step6: Clothing + accessories + hairdo
take the updated lowest (or 2nd lowest) subdivision back into maya.
There you can create the armor parts, these parts are again in low poly.
Also you can add a model for the hairdo or moustache if the guy isn't bald.
Step7: Refine clothing + accessories
Take the low resolution clothes and armor parts back into zbrush,
Here in their original resolution you can tweak their shapes to accommodate your high res anatomical naked guy sculpt
After that you can start to subdivide the items and add details like edges, engraving, stitches. Later on you can also add scratches, dents, creases and folds.
Step8: Add texture to your model.
Not necessarily meaning "texturing", this is where you add detailing to make a surface look like leather, metal, rags or skin. There are various techniques to obtain these looks make sure to research how people do this, it can be of great benefit for all of your sculpts. Also if you are inclined to do so, you can add stuff like scars, cuts, and other marks.
Now you would have a finished sculpting and your model should look presentable.
However if you want this to be for a game engine...
Step9: Divide your character
It's best to do the following steps in small parts instead of an entire mesh, as having 5,000,000 poly's in a non Zbrush viewport will make all except for the most buff pc's slow to a grind. Think where parts will be separated. Things like belts and straps are great places to cut up the model since the seams can be hidden in the hard corners that they provide. Also if they are in close proximity of eachother it's best to combine them, like a "torso" with arms, all straps and clothes, though if the guy has wrist straps, you can leave out the hands. Other good combinations are: "Legs" with pants/skirt and shoes, Head, with helmet if he's not to take it off or without if he is. And then all accessories like pouches or weapons as seperate models.
Step10: Retopo
Take the parts of the model back into max or maya, there you can model a new model over your high resolution mesh, this is called retopologizing.
There are a lot of good tutorials on retopologizing for all kinds of software packages. Make sure that you only use polygons to get the silhouette to look good. So if you turn around your model(part) that curves are just fluid enough to sell, you don't want to use excessive polygons here as every polygon saved can help with a better framerate in a game, especially if your guy is used 10,000 times on a battlefield scene.
If you can get away with having a model of 12 faces it's fine, as long as the silhouette properly matches. (like for an ammo crate)
however dont skimp on polygons if a protruding feature will go to waste when being baked to a flat face later on.
Step11: UVing or Unwrapping.
In order to bake things correctly you have to add UV's to your model.
Depending on how many texture sheets that you can use you have to make sure that all your objects have their own separate place on the uv map.
UVing can be an art of itself, you can spend days doing an impeccable uv layout. However there are also tools to lighten the load and to automate things, Tools like Roadkill or the Peltmap tool in max can make things go faster a lot. Look for good tutorials on proper unwrapping!
Step12: Baking your mesh.
After you have made a good topology, you can begin exporting your models to obj files, then you can use a program like xnormal to convert the high resolution meshes into normalmaps and ambient occlusion maps.
Look online for tutorials on Xnormal to help you out
Step13: Applying materials and combining texturemaps
When you have made sure the uv's of seperate objects dont overlap
you can combine your modelparts in maya/max and your textures in photoshop.
Now you should have a normalmapped and sculpted model ready for rigging and ingame use.
after opening the thread, seeing your goal, and seeing your complete and utter LACK of progress after being spoonfed some really really REALLY good critique and advice.
you've left me very much feeling like this:
How does that even happen... I'm scared.
I think we all come here to help people and it's sad in a way to see someone ignore that assistance.
Are you seriously dismissing every course that actually tracks the progress of its students and fails the ones that don't meet the minimum requirements?
Honestly this is a result of both the student and teachers being lazy. Feedback isn't enough when you need to teach the student basic disciplinary habits aka. are you not trying to improve? Give first year another try. Unfortunately people going at this person in this thread won't have nearly the same "wake up call" effect.
My apologies if you're not actually a spokesperson for the University, and are just making a comment based on experience but; if this is the case, why has he been allowed to make it to the third year of the course? If he's been allowed to make it this far, one can only assume he'll also be allowed to pass (regardless of the final grade)... And in my opinion that's wrong for the following reasons:
1. it gives him the false hope that he'll get work in this industry (he won't, not for a long time yet from the looks of things).
2. it devalues an already borderline laughable degree.
3. it puts yet another "qualified" and yet underqualified person into the job pool.
do you not see a problem with this?
I'm a fellow student of his - and I agree with you.
Howard i would say read all this epic information and really mull it over...and remake this charactor, even if you pass this class remake this guy.
Jack Ryan, make sure he reads this man, I know i had a buddy at school that was struggling and i really tried to help him out.....he ended up giving up and now he delivers pizzas but thats not the point lol....hopefully you can help someone do what they love instead of deliver pizzas.....idk i need my coffee hahah its to damn early......
Its not the degree that defines you,....you define the degree!
I also had a friend in a similar boat, wouldn't listen to me; let me down on our final year project in that I wasn't able to be nominated for a competition to represent my University due to his poor work....
and now he works full time at Tescos... and yet... despite my hard work; and although I'm in the CG industry (still want to cross over to games using what I know....and will have to start posting more work here) I gained the same Degree classification.... wtf? like TESCOS man -.-
the worst part is when you wake up and then look at your website and cry and realize its all shit hahaha....and your like welp....time to get on the grind and create a whole new portfolio....and have a blast doing it
like my buddy still lives at his parents house...i was like come on man...you could make 3d work and move out thats like a win win...but he gave up on me....its sad......and just was not smart at all...and didnt know what a NDA was.....just a train wreck no matter how you slice it.
This was great. Let this thread serve as an eternal beacon to those who do not listen, and do not try.
Furthermore it feels like the overall work being posted in here lately is very low quality and very saddening to me, I can understand needing crits but some of the stuff posted lately is startling.
A lot of assumptions are being made about "Howard"
This person is showing (and does) have a keen interest in modelling. The fact he's posting on a forum is evident to that. People should be respecting this, and they do.
The majority of post I've seen have been really informative and supporting, even the harsher comments have their silver linings.
However it's quite disheartening to see a minority of people character assassinating someone base on their work. Further more questioning the legitimacy of the university under enrollment.
I don't know "Howard" personally but he is an acquaintance. From what I can tell he frequently is the last one out of lectures and is fairly passionate about the subject. Not everyone can just make a perfect sculpt after being sent a google image of a human with lines on it.
I just had to say that because people were getting his skill mixed up with his attitude.
I have to disagree with this; they weren't necessarily the legitimacy of the University, but merely the standards it holds and the lecturers themselves; if they feel at the end of the day his work is good enough to enter industry and worthy of his three years of training; and they are proud of what this particular student has achieved...
Dont see this as a pesonal attack because its not...
I figure you are at that University; and I figure your also on the same module seeing as you've just posted your work on the P&P thread. Now, disregarding the bullshit about the "google image" with human lines on it; because google itself has THOUSANDS of great anatomy sources, not only that but he posted on POLYCOUNT; with a HUGE WIKI of anatomy sources... you cannot justify the standard of his work by his passion. Theres "saying it and doing it" and his work clearly demonstrates this.
That being said; the standard of your work in comparison to his own (that is if you are on his course and assuming on the same module - apologies if this is wrong) is EXTREMELY different; its almost as if hes starting out in 3D and your polished enough to demonstrate your years of training.
Just my thoughts; don't want to wind anyone up over this but I'm sure many of polycount agree.
NO.HE.DOESNT.
If he was really interested in modelling he would take on board what everyone has said and made adjustments accordingly. (even tho its too late)
He is simply wasting money on a university course that doesn't give a shit about his interests. It feels like you guys at staff are not taking this seriously and see this as a witch hunt instead of REALLY good advise.
I really hope it works out for him..i really do but you simply have to open your eyes and smell...reality
I would agree with you there. But you must understand universities have an affinity for tuition fees.
Just for clarity I wasn't defending his work. Just his personality. I just thought it was unfair everyone had this image of him being a person who couldn't give two shits about his course. So I just had to say something.
true, sad but true. : (
What does this reality smell like? Never had it. Probabliy because I take nothing seriously : D
Over and out : )
Exactly this. To me it is great that he is passionate about his work, but you know what may be better? If he was held accountable through his schooling to produce work worthy of the degree he is working towards. I see this and am genuinely curious as to how this is a final year project. I feel like some of these schools pass people like crazy so they can get their hands on that grant and scholarship money. You start failing kids and that money dries up.
Howard, if you're still reading this thread at all, I don't mean to knock you because everybody has to start somewhere, but you need to get a solid foundation and understanding of anatomy and form before you take this any further. Before you even think of going into ZBrush you need to get to a point that you can understand how to model a solid base mesh. ZBrush is great but you need a better jumping off point.