I believe that with some good advice anyone can make a decent model/sculpt.
It is easy to post something that you are proud of online, though it takes guts to post something that you know is embarrassing.
Some time ago i was also trying to make my first humanoid face using zbrush,
Though all i got was poop... so then i posted at my school's sculpting forum to see how people would respond. And to my surprise i was met with a lot of good advice, links to tutorials and ideas on how to continue.
Eventually this:
Turned into this:
As long as you are motivated to improve and not afraid to burn down the work that you previously considered as "the best i can do" its possible to improve. Even if you think you are the worst of the bunch...
we have all been there howard.....and i really hope you get this, you have a community here trying to help you and allow you to make good on your dream, goal and aspirations to make it in the industry! dont give up use it as motivation to get better....i was just like you at one point but i used all the failures to motivate me to push me to the next level...with that being said ill reach into the bag and show you my bad models from school...yall better be ready to laugh....bc i sure as hell did ahahaha...enjoy
and you know what it got better!! haha ALOT BETTER just keep at it man, you are the only person stopping you from your dreams! go out and get them! Youll get there, just keep posting stuff here and listen to the comments ....itll be painful....but no pain no gain I hope this helps man....ok you guys can stop laughing at my snowboard chic now lol :P
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. When I graduated from Full Sail I was terrible. It's kind of why I take issue with Universities grading their students so lax. With the right amount of effort, you can get better but it also takes knowing when your stuff can improve or taking critiques from other people. Hell there is an entire thread about past vs present work of people on these forums.
It takes a lot of guts to post your stuff online for anyone to rip apart, but the second part of that is taking valid critiques to heart and working from there.
I will have to back Jack up on that, myself also being a student there.
A lot of assumptions are being made about "Howard"
This person is showing (and does) have a keen interest in modelling. The fact he's posting on a forum is evident to that. People should be respecting this, and they do.
The majority of post I've seen have been really informative and supporting, even the harsher comments have their silver linings.
However it's quite disheartening to see a minority of people character assassinating someone base on their work. Further more questioning the legitimacy of the university under enrollment.
I don't know "Howard" personally but he is an acquaintance. From what I can tell he frequently is the last one out of lectures and is fairly passionate about the subject. Not everyone can just make a perfect sculpt after being sent a google image of a human with lines on it.
I just had to say that because people were getting his skill mixed up with his attitude.
he could be attending Scott Eton classes in person for all i know. but the fact of the matter is that he is a third year in a university course with the end goal of being "industry ready" upon completion.
and everything in every single post says that both he, and the university have failed in that regard. allow me to elaborate:
1. he has a wealth of critique, feedback, and suggestion in this thread which if used correctly would be demonstrated by a recognisable visual improvement with each new post. this isn't what's happening. each new post shows little to no improvement, which means that either he is ignoring or disregarding feedback, OR the university hasn't taught him how to use feedback correctly. feedback is an integral part of the creative workflow at EVERY SINGLE JOB YOU WILL EVER DO IN THIS INDUSTRY.
2. either he has ignored or disregarded, or the university hasn't been teaching proper workflow. at this point it's impossible to know, but i'd hazard a guess and say that the university teaches at least a decent workflow. if he hadn't ignored or disregarded that teaching, then he would know that he's moved up too many subdivisions too early, he would know that he hasn't blocked out the basic anatomical landmasses properly before moving forward with clothing etc.
so, it's either a personal failing, or the failing of the university, or both. but as a general rule i'd say it's an 80/20 split. the massive failure here is from Howard, and his inability to take and use feedback correctly. the rest of the failure is in the university for allowing him to pass into his third year at this standard. and allowing him to believe he even stands a snowballs chance in hell of getting employment after he leaves.
fuck me... games design courses piss me off so much.
Again it comes down to what you do with the tools given to you by the school......I think that very few people are ready to jump into industry upon completion of school....but when you do grad you have this mind set like yeah...I'm totally ready to go make video games...why? because well i have a piece of paper........yeah.....
and game art/design coarses are not bad in of them selves....but I feel like they need to manage expectations....but honestly at the end of the day its a business...and they are in it to make $$$
I know that i needed to attended school to learn i could not have gotten over the intial learning curve of 3d by my self i dont think....i paid money for someon to give me a good artistic foundation and it was up to me to build somthing on top of that....and i think that should be the aim of the schools....3D art i feel is not somthing you can just go school and learn.....and be like YUP...im tots ready....its something that needs to be honed and sharped to be able to be at a professional level and you have to put in your dues...and part of that is having a not so fun job/jobs living with the rents and not doing anything on weekends or nights but art, sacrificing social life to live the dream! But....let me tell you its worth it....and chics dig a good artist
I'm a student at IGAD in the Netherlands,
It's a tough course and students are dropping like flies, though people that graduate are usually have their own projects, starting new game companies or are hired straight out of school by the bigger companies like Guerilla, Dice or Ubisoft.
Though even here i see this happening, there are people that are not motivated or driven enough compared to others. This isn't a big issue when doing solo projects, however with group projects there are often people of different skill and motivation levels together. you do have the required skills but part of the group does not, you basically get 2 choices:
1. blame the team, put "equal" effort in the project as the rest and receive a fail (after which you have to try again next year)
2. Compensate by delivering all stuff and fixing the work of other classmates. (after which those members get to continue their courses and have a misleading portfolio piece)
Just quitting the project or going solo isn't an option, also ditching people from a group is also not an option.
Unless someone is really vanishing from the face of the earth for weeks or just slacking to the extreme.
Still i believe everything will turn out accordingly over time...
just a quick comment from me in general not specifically to the original poster or some of the comments made.
Careful not to judge someones unwillingness to make changes and take feedback seriously with their actual ability to do so. It takes time to develop skills and train your eye and people progress at different rates regardless of how golden the feedback may be. Sometimes things don't "click" right away and the original poster certainly isn't going to be a master at anatomy and character modeling after just over a week of posting his/her character.
he could be attending Scott Eton classes in person for all i know. but the fact of the matter is that he is a third year in a university course with the end goal of being "industry ready" upon completion.
and everything in every single post says that both he, and the university have failed in that regard. allow me to elaborate:
1. he has a wealth of critique, feedback, and suggestion in this thread which if used correctly would be demonstrated by a recognisable visual improvement with each new post. this isn't what's happening. each new post shows little to no improvement, which means that either he is ignoring or disregarding feedback, OR the university hasn't taught him how to use feedback correctly. feedback is an integral part of the creative workflow at EVERY SINGLE JOB YOU WILL EVER DO IN THIS INDUSTRY.
2. either he has ignored or disregarded, or the university hasn't been teaching proper workflow. at this point it's impossible to know, but i'd hazard a guess and say that the university teaches at least a decent workflow. if he hadn't ignored or disregarded that teaching, then he would know that he's moved up too many subdivisions too early, he would know that he hasn't blocked out the basic anatomical landmasses properly before moving forward with clothing etc.
so, it's either a personal failing, or the failing of the university, or both. but as a general rule i'd say it's an 80/20 split. the massive failure here is from Howard, and his inability to take and use feedback correctly. the rest of the failure is in the university for allowing him to pass into his third year at this standard. and allowing him to believe he even stands a snowballs chance in hell of getting employment after he leaves.
fuck me... games design courses piss me off so much.
My experience of a games degree was pretty similar to all this. Plenty of useless irrelevant filler units. Pretty much nothing useful in regards to art fundamentals taught and as long as you actually did the work regardless of the quality you would pass.
being an instructor (not in a CG-related field), i can say there are many factors and politics involved with student grading.
For example, we are told to distribute the students' grades into a bell curve. So out of 10 students, 1 or 2 should get an A+, 1 or 2 get and F and the rest should lie in the middle. The institution doesn't care how you do it, and they don't even check after your exam papers if you meet that criteria. that's all that matters to them.
Another thing is availability. If you fail a student, they will occupy a seat and a set of equipment to in the lab next semester. They will also mess up some schedules because they have to carry that course over . So it seems easier to pass them than deal with that.
There are more factors that escape my mind, but i believe there is also a bigger problem. It is extremely hard to get a job in this generation without a degree, so people go to some university and do some major just to get that piece of paper that lands them a job. It didn't used to be like that. 1 or 2 generations ago, you could get a job without a degree, so people had to make a decision to go to university, and many of them did it for the passion of the subject matter. I'd ask freshman students why they chose their major and what they know about it. In my ~5 years of teaching, not one student gave me a satisfying answer.
PS: bare in mind that i teach in a "3rd world" country, and it might not be accurate to extrapolate that experience to other parts of the world, but i did see those findings first hand in places you could call respectable.
Everything being said in this thread is exactly how I felt when I attended my three years of uni. You feel fucking useless in a class of people who don't give a shit...who are all under the impression that they will be working at bioware at the end of the year..
Guess what, universities don't give a shit. If they stand to make 20 grand off of you, for giving you a piece of paper...then why should they give a shit?
I wrote a dissertation during that time...who the fuck cares?
I remember being so frustrated with my family when they were excited with me graduating, asking me if I was proud of myself - "No, I'm not.. Because there are people who solely attended - who achieved the same grade as I did" [which was the top you could achieve]
I see this type of thread all too often - ample amounts of advice followed by complete ignorance of what has been offered.
I had this with my previous "study" a few years ago, It was a simple 3 year multimedia design course. In those three years there was not a single challenge or motivating part. Except for maybe the internship.
At graduation i was mad about how the people that did fck all got the same grades as other people that actually tried to make something out of the assignments. My parents didn't understand why i was angry though. Eventually i was happy i could just leave that place forever.
Also other school projects i worked on in the past are still being used during student recruitment days to show off what they could learn/create if they were to join, even though i applied skills there that weren't even taught at the school, for the project i got an average grade because of an incomplete administration... :susp:
Meanwhile some pieces of garbage from other students got high marks just because they ticked all the boxes on the checklist instead of creating something presentable.
My previous school was shit as well , a game design study created by a incompetent person that didn't have any knowledge to pass to his students. I was young, naive and I regret my choice. But luckily my current education is very good. Only good and skilled teachers that care a lot about their students.
Just to clarify, I'm also on this course. Here's a few pieces of work from the same exact module by this guys peers. His work has no reflection on the course itself or the quality of work produced, he's just one of those poor quality students and definately not a reflection on the University.
I'm not saying this work is incredible but it's clearly of a much higher standard than the work on this post. Don't be so quick to judge an entire university by one incompetent student
I'm not saying this work is incredible but it's clearly of a much higher standard than the work on this post. Don't be so quick to judge an entire university by one incompetent student
@Beanwright - Thankyou for posting up your work, its nice to see the work of a different student from the same univeristy.
But that doesn't change the fact that the university has failed Howard in that they have let him this far in the course.
I agree. I couldn't believe it when I found out he made it to third year. And I'm not defending the guy, this work is by far 'industry standard' which is what we're aiming for.
All I was saying is that the quality of the university itself shouldn't be reflected by one student who doesn't excel in a certain area of games design on a course that focuses on game design in general (and not just 3D Art).
Also, the work posted wasn't mine. It was by a few other people on the same course.
he could be attending Scott Eton classes in person for all i know. but the fact of the matter is that he is a third year in a university course with the end goal of being "industry ready" upon completion.
and everything in every single post says that both he, and the university have failed in that regard. allow me to elaborate:
1. he has a wealth of critique, feedback, and suggestion in this thread which if used correctly would be demonstrated by a recognisable visual improvement with each new post. this isn't what's happening. each new post shows little to no improvement, which means that either he is ignoring or disregarding feedback, OR the university hasn't taught him how to use feedback correctly. feedback is an integral part of the creative workflow at EVERY SINGLE JOB YOU WILL EVER DO IN THIS INDUSTRY.
2. either he has ignored or disregarded, or the university hasn't been teaching proper workflow. at this point it's impossible to know, but i'd hazard a guess and say that the university teaches at least a decent workflow. if he hadn't ignored or disregarded that teaching, then he would know that he's moved up too many subdivisions too early, he would know that he hasn't blocked out the basic anatomical landmasses properly before moving forward with clothing etc.
so, it's either a personal failing, or the failing of the university, or both. but as a general rule i'd say it's an 80/20 split. the massive failure here is from Howard, and his inability to take and use feedback correctly. the rest of the failure is in the university for allowing him to pass into his third year at this standard. and allowing him to believe he even stands a snowballs chance in hell of getting employment after he leaves.
fuck me... games design courses piss me off so much.
On top of this it was mentioned in his assignment that he HAD to post this to a forum. I doubt he would be posting here for feedback if his assignment wasn't forcing him to do so. I think people just posting here because their school is making them really brings down the integrity of what polycount is about.
On top of this it was mentioned in his assignment that he HAD to post this to a forum. I doubt he would be posting here for feedback if his assignment wasn't forcing him to do so. I think people just posting here because their school is making them really brings down the integrity of what polycount is about.
+20 I agree, I feel like lately the P&P section (and tech talk) has been a torrent of either really lazy art from people who don't even want to see the flaws in their work or refuse to Google the most simple of things. I really don't understand it and find it very frustrating and annoying. I really wish PC had more quality posts. I mean sure we all make a dumb post every once and awhile but things are getting next level in here.
+20 I agree, I feel like lately the P&P section (and tech talk) has been a torrent of either really lazy art from people who don't even want to see the flaws in their work or refuse to Google the most simple of things. I really don't understand it and find it very frustrating and annoying. I really wish PC had more quality posts. I mean sure we all make a dumb post every once and awhile but things are getting next level in here.
The issue is that some people start off poor but it isn't indicative of where they're going to be. For some of these people it may be the first time they've ever really put themselves out in the public eye and they may not be used to getting critiques. Hopefully they'll open up and listen to well crafted advice.
If they're outright ignoring critiques, well then, they're probably not going to get jobs in most cases. I think the people that post here for a grade will weed themselves out in the way that they'll either listen to critique and get better or they leave because they won't be able to handle the hard truth that their work is poor and they won't be able to find a job.
I mean sure we all make a dumb post every once and awhile but things are getting next level in here.
I'm guessing you aren't familiar with the old Requests subforum or GD before the current rules where established? Requests was pretty much the troll cesspool, an almost completely separate community.
I am a year 2 games technical art student at Staffordshire uni, I have browsed through his thread on the work submitting forum, on that the lecturers have told him to start again, told him he had moved up subdivisions to quickly, and also drawn up some pictures comparing his model differences to references, in my opinion and as expected the lecturers have attempted to help him.
He has given them the same response.
This is the stubbornness of this individual and is no way a reflection upon the teaching at staffs.
Like i said, my issue isn't with the instruction given.
my issue is that he's even been allowed to make it to the third year of the course. to quote Praetus:
The issue is that some people start off poor but it isn't indicative of where they're going to be. For some of these people it may be the first time they've ever really put themselves out in the public eye and they may not be used to getting critiques.
he's a third year student. he hasn't started off poor, he's had two previous years that have led to his current ability. which isn't good enough for a third year student, period.
then again, i'm very much aware of the politics of for profit schooling and their attitude toward grading.
Like i said, my issue isn't with the instruction given.
my issue is that he's even been allowed to make it to the third year of the course. to quote Praetus:
he's a third year student. he hasn't started off poor, he's had two previous years that have led to his current ability. which isn't good enough for a third year student, period.
then again, i'm very much aware of the politics of for profit schooling and their attitude toward grading.
Believe or not his previous stuff is nowhere near as bad as this, I don't know the guy but he has definitely got worse over the summer rather than better.
School is definately what you make it, but in the end not really worth the money. I attend school for Game Production, and am very passionate about my feelings on the subject of "art school degrees". Over the course of my time at school I have surely improved in many aspects of 3d art-especially in the modeling/texturing department. Sure, I have posted some stuff here, and just abondoned it due to lack of skill level in the particular subject but I'm always listening to advice, and trying to get better. Other areas like Zbrush, I suck at, and have withdrawn twice out of because my ability to comprehend the program is not "clicking". In the end I know I'll prevail and conquer that damn program.
Anyhow, I see students who would rather play video games and Magic the Gathering than actually improving upon their skills who get the same end grades I do because they were in class, and met the milestones. I often don't meet all the milestones/requisites of a project, but always push my work to the extent of my current ability, and past my last work everytime. I want to be an enironment artist/texturer, so I constantly watch tuts on the subject, and post stuff here to learn. Things I don't ever see some of my classmates EVER doing. I have had a teacher recently tell me a model of mine is being used in his classes to show students what to strive for in their work (not that I'm a master at all, but an example of not turning in shit-on-a-stick)- a model I am not even super happy with anymore.
My feeling on art schools is this:
Cons:
1. After you have spent a massive amount of money already on a degree, you realize that a lot of your previous classes did not prepare you for more advance subjects-this is obviously were what you put into it is a great help in actually excelling. The schools know this I think, but they also know that at that point, you have spent too much money to back out and NOT have the piece of paper. You will finish the schooling and give them another 20K for their coffers.
2.It is true that an instructor/class can't teach you everything, and that you HAVE to put the time into finding tuts, posting work/taking feedback, and actually looking at your own stuff and seriously analyzing your strengths/weaknesses to grow at whatever you want to do. Unfortunately, I think a lot of teachers use this as a crutch to not show you how to do things properly because they don't care, or don't know the workflows or have the knowledge themselves to be honest. This really ticks me off. I have had some seriously questionable instruction/teachers in my time at school. I have asked teachers why we don't don't use a certain workflow (something I want to try instead), and they say I'm trying to do it the hard way when the majority of the net, and peeps on here, say the exact opposite.
I could ponder more, and write more cons but this will do for now.
Pros:
1. Before I came to school, I knew nothing about game art/developement at all. School at least opened the door to a whole new realm for me. But this is where this pro ends really. I could have left school after the 3rd/4th term and just learned the rest on my own I think.
2. Networking-The people you meet at school could be your next boss, or get you a job in the future.
The OP is NOT listening to advice on here, but instead seems to be regressing on this project IMO. I recently saw a fellow classmate of mine ask for critiques on his portfolio that was full of bad concept art, very basic models from the first modeling class with horrible lighting and bright standard materials yadda yadda. The same person is sending this portfolio to a bunch of AAA game companies in hopes of a job. It is not going to happen. Too many people are not willing to take harsh advice, or no one is giving it to them in the hopes of sparing their feelings.
I you are listening OP, start over like everyone has said. Watch tuts till your eyes bleed, and try to listen to advice. Anatomy is tough. 3d art is tough. You will get better if you try, and take constructive feedback for what it is-An attempt to help you and make you grow.
Eek, I've definitely had a class that required me to post on this forum and I thought it was one of the best courses I had at my school. It really motivated me to spend extra time on each assignment because I knew I had to reveal it to this community and I didn't want to embarrass myself. I used to think I was pretty self motivated before but being part of polycount has been a huge motivational boost. Also it was great to get a ton more eyes on your work outside of the bubble that you have in your class. It was such a great part of my work process that I decided to continue posting threads here regularly.
Another part that I thought was great about it was that I was curious to see how some more stubborn people were going to react to polycount's critique. Sometimes people can ignore the critique they get in a class because, for whatever reason, they have dismissed the opinions of their peers and teacher. But if they post here and get slammed they could come to the realization that they have gone off track somewhere. I felt that if they didn't take in critique here they wouldn't take in critique anywhere but there is a chance that polycount will be a wake up call.
Reading in this thread about this kind of thing bringing down the integrity of polycount makes me feel a little like a guest at a party who has come in with dog shit on their shoe and gotten it everywhere. I really like polycount though so I'm not going to leave. I just hope that if I am one of the lazy artists that is being referred to then people should let me know on my threads and I promise I'll listen.
Reading in this thread about this kind of thing bringing down the integrity of polycount makes me feel a little like a guest at a party who has come in with dog shit on their shoe and gotten it everywhere. I really like polycount though so I'm not going to leave. I just hope that if I am one of the lazy artists that is being referred to then people should let me know on my threads and I promise I'll listen.
nono, fuck that, and fuck those guys.
everyone of every skill level should be posting here in order to get good feedback that they can use to better themselves.
I never graduated from the university of choice(Art Institute). I have several disabilities that make things tough for me. There were mixed reviews for the teachers from me. Some gave helpful information and pointed out my blunders while others ignored any issue that I might have found myself troubled over. I couldn't take the stress, especially when my art was apparently "lost" and I ended up getting a Zero for it.I dropped from college and decided to pursue it on my own. It's been very bumpy and I wish that I didn't let the crowd of polycount intimidate me. I have Google which is very reliable, but where else might I go if all else fails? There are members at Polycount whom understand how it feels to love a passion. I am so extremely grateful for the advice that I have been given. It's value is infinite.
Each night, I stay up till the early mornings studying anatomy and browsing the forum, trying not to bug unless it were really needed. I have a dream that I want to realize and my family & peers see my growth daily. I'm positive that there are many more like me that want that same goal. I send by people daily who are looking for help, but if people are going to act stuck-up just because a person seems rubbish then what does that make us look like?
I agree, that Howard's ignorance towards all of the advice is visibly frustrating, but who knows. Maybe those people whom allowed Howard to pass left some sort of imprint, like a boot on his mentality of thinking. I'd be extremely pale seeing all of the comments rushing down the page at how all I had done was for naught. He hasn't returned yet... I honestly feel bad that his peers didn't give him a shake about his work. From what I've seen, the students are perfectly capable. When I read the title of the thread, I thought that I'd be in for something that took my breath away, but it was fairly depressing. When I saw how close he was to graduation, I was completely shocked. Again, the title is misleading and from what he knows, this is "Advanced 3D Modeling".
Money is one thing, but when you play with someone's hopes, it's just about as low as a person can go.
It is about growth........yes some of the comments in this thread were a bit harsh....but i feel where very warranted.....the advice that was given here was really good! i mean if i ever make an organic character again ill defiantly revisit this thread to get some pointers
but it is for the passion that we do this, we are all growing and getting better I really hope howard doesn't view this as negative i hope he uses this to fuel the fires and come back and drop an epic model!
But thats the thing....i feel sometimes you need to be harsh because if someone things thier work is epic and has a stubborn nature about them....which it seems like he does based on comments made by ppl that know him...you do that not to be mean but to kinda get thier attention, i mean shit ive been in the same boat.....i thought i knew how to normal maps a while back and i was like all yall giving me advice about the normal maps just seemed like more work and i wasn't growing bc i was not seeing it due to my stubbornness until my mate was like hey arse face here is why you do this...and then i felt like an idiot hahaha
just imagine if medical schools worked this same way. you just show up for classes and do the work and you automagicaly get passed and get your doctors badge. no matter if all your dissections look like they were done by a caveman with a battle axe.
everyone of every skill level should be posting here in order to get good feedback that they can use to better themselves.
Sure. But this isn't always the case. If I read things correctly, one of his classmates said that the only reason this thread got started was because it was an assignment to make a thread on Polycount. While I feel that it certainly was in good intentions of the teacher to send them here, I think that making it obligatory isn't the right way to handle this.
By all means, educators, tell your students about forums like these, but don't force them here. Have their own level of effort filter them out. You can't force a lazy student to become unlazy, and threads like these take away attention from students that actually want to learn.
It's sad that howard didn't showed up since the first page of this thread
Maybe Howard is still lurking on the forum,reading everything we put down here but afraid to continue posting after the big backlash on page 3.
If this is the case, howard, don't be affraid to post, we are all here to help you, though because of the nature of how internet works, we can only help by giving you pointers on what to do, you are the one that actually has to make the changes and heed the advice.
If you are starting over, just a small note saying,
"thx im redoing the model" is enough info to get the positive feedback/help train starting again.
It's text on a screen. Nobody should let it get to them.
This is true, however, it's not so easy to just blow off harsh criticism. It sits at the back of your mind on every model you make, every texture you paint. That's the beauty of it! You work on a model and ask yourself "is this good enough?" instead of settling for something sub-par.
I really do hope that OP looks at a couple of these pages. Some of the crap published by the commenters won't help him and such comments are really just inflammatory in nature.. But there are some really neat pointers and tips established here.
And Cglewis is right! I posted a really poor model a while back (some astronaut) which I'd picked up again to texture, and it got torn to bloody shreds. That pushed me to learn facial anatomy and focus on the details of a face. No more half-measures!
Howard, you'd better use these critiques to your advantage and bust out a kickass model someday!
Reading in this thread about this kind of thing bringing down the integrity of polycount makes me feel a little like a guest at a party who has come in with dog shit on their shoe and gotten it everywhere. I really like polycount though so I'm not going to leave. I just hope that if I am one of the lazy artists that is being referred to then people should let me know on my threads and I promise I'll listen.
I honestly hope I did not make you feel this way and if I do I apologize. Polycount is a great place, and I directly attribute my growth as an artist to the people on this board. I will say though, that the reason I stayed here was because the critiques I received on this board were harsh reviews that made me reconsider my path as an artist. They also motivated me to get off my ass and improve. I love Polycount because of the tough love that was given to me that other boards would not give. On other boards my work was critiqued with "kid gloves" and because I never heard anything I didn't want to hear, I never improved.
By all means I hope that Howard reads all of this. I hope it all sinks in. At the end of the day I hope it makes him look at his work, rip it to shreds and do the proper research and work to improve himself as an artist. I wouldn't say that anyone here wants to see him fail, but people do tend to get upset when good advice isn't followed. Don't me put off by the naysayers; instead take their critiques and use them as fuel to improve.
@praetus Aww, nah. I think it was more the responses that were talking about how many bad threads there are now and how it seems to be from students being forced to post. I don't think any of your posts said that.
And honestly I probably shouldn't have felt like that because I don't think that they were referring to me. I think the main thing that compelled me to post on this thread was in defense of my class that had us post to forums. It was so damn beneficial for some people, like me, that it seems like it's worth it even if some people post, don't take critique and then peter out.
Either way I was never going to let it get to me. My ass will probably be posting to polycount for a while and I would love if people stopped by my threads and tore me up. The quicker you get torn up, the quicker you get better.
This is true, however, it's not so easy to just blow off harsh criticism. It sits at the back of your mind on every model you make, every texture you paint. That's the beauty of it! You work on a model and ask yourself "is this good enough?" instead of settling for something sub-par.
I really do hope that OP looks at a couple of these pages. Some of the crap published by the commenters won't help him and such comments are really just inflammatory in nature.. But there are some really neat pointers and tips established here.
And Cglewis is right! I posted a really poor model a while back (some astronaut) which I'd picked up again to texture, and it got torn to bloody shreds. That pushed me to learn facial anatomy and focus on the details of a face. No more half-measures!
Howard, you'd better use these critiques to your advantage and bust out a kickass model someday!
Which is what critique should do - it should make you think and approach things differently. It shouldn't make you feel maligned. I'm right there with you hoping he pulls through and does something that really shines, but there's no way to tell unless he posts again.
Anyone thinking about enrolling in any given art/design degree should contact the program's faculty and request to see a selection of graduated students' portfolios/websites. Or at least, do your own research and google the degree/program and the school to find online portfolios of students attending/graduating. Research to avoid getting conned by a for-profit diploma mill.
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It is easy to post something that you are proud of online, though it takes guts to post something that you know is embarrassing.
Some time ago i was also trying to make my first humanoid face using zbrush,
Though all i got was poop... so then i posted at my school's sculpting forum to see how people would respond. And to my surprise i was met with a lot of good advice, links to tutorials and ideas on how to continue.
Eventually this:
Turned into this:
As long as you are motivated to improve and not afraid to burn down the work that you previously considered as "the best i can do" its possible to improve. Even if you think you are the worst of the bunch...
we have all been there howard.....and i really hope you get this, you have a community here trying to help you and allow you to make good on your dream, goal and aspirations to make it in the industry!
and you know what it got better!! haha ALOT BETTER just keep at it man, you are the only person stopping you from your dreams! go out and get them! Youll get there, just keep posting stuff here and listen to the comments ....itll be painful....but no pain no gain
It takes a lot of guts to post your stuff online for anyone to rip apart, but the second part of that is taking valid critiques to heart and working from there.
he could be attending Scott Eton classes in person for all i know. but the fact of the matter is that he is a third year in a university course with the end goal of being "industry ready" upon completion.
and everything in every single post says that both he, and the university have failed in that regard. allow me to elaborate:
1. he has a wealth of critique, feedback, and suggestion in this thread which if used correctly would be demonstrated by a recognisable visual improvement with each new post. this isn't what's happening. each new post shows little to no improvement, which means that either he is ignoring or disregarding feedback, OR the university hasn't taught him how to use feedback correctly. feedback is an integral part of the creative workflow at EVERY SINGLE JOB YOU WILL EVER DO IN THIS INDUSTRY.
2. either he has ignored or disregarded, or the university hasn't been teaching proper workflow. at this point it's impossible to know, but i'd hazard a guess and say that the university teaches at least a decent workflow. if he hadn't ignored or disregarded that teaching, then he would know that he's moved up too many subdivisions too early, he would know that he hasn't blocked out the basic anatomical landmasses properly before moving forward with clothing etc.
so, it's either a personal failing, or the failing of the university, or both. but as a general rule i'd say it's an 80/20 split. the massive failure here is from Howard, and his inability to take and use feedback correctly. the rest of the failure is in the university for allowing him to pass into his third year at this standard. and allowing him to believe he even stands a snowballs chance in hell of getting employment after he leaves.
fuck me... games design courses piss me off so much.
and game art/design coarses are not bad in of them selves....but I feel like they need to manage expectations....but honestly at the end of the day its a business...and they are in it to make $$$
I know that i needed to attended school to learn i could not have gotten over the intial learning curve of 3d by my self i dont think....i paid money for someon to give me a good artistic foundation and it was up to me to build somthing on top of that....and i think that should be the aim of the schools....3D art i feel is not somthing you can just go school and learn.....and be like YUP...im tots ready....its something that needs to be honed and sharped to be able to be at a professional level and you have to put in your dues...and part of that is having a not so fun job/jobs living with the rents and not doing anything on weekends or nights but art, sacrificing social life to live the dream! But....let me tell you its worth it....and chics dig a good artist
I'm a student at IGAD in the Netherlands,
It's a tough course and students are dropping like flies, though people that graduate are usually have their own projects, starting new game companies or are hired straight out of school by the bigger companies like Guerilla, Dice or Ubisoft.
Though even here i see this happening, there are people that are not motivated or driven enough compared to others. This isn't a big issue when doing solo projects, however with group projects there are often people of different skill and motivation levels together. you do have the required skills but part of the group does not, you basically get 2 choices:
1. blame the team, put "equal" effort in the project as the rest and receive a fail (after which you have to try again next year)
2. Compensate by delivering all stuff and fixing the work of other classmates. (after which those members get to continue their courses and have a misleading portfolio piece)
Just quitting the project or going solo isn't an option, also ditching people from a group is also not an option.
Unless someone is really vanishing from the face of the earth for weeks or just slacking to the extreme.
Still i believe everything will turn out accordingly over time...
Careful not to judge someones unwillingness to make changes and take feedback seriously with their actual ability to do so. It takes time to develop skills and train your eye and people progress at different rates regardless of how golden the feedback may be. Sometimes things don't "click" right away and the original poster certainly isn't going to be a master at anatomy and character modeling after just over a week of posting his/her character.
+20 Million
For example, we are told to distribute the students' grades into a bell curve. So out of 10 students, 1 or 2 should get an A+, 1 or 2 get and F and the rest should lie in the middle. The institution doesn't care how you do it, and they don't even check after your exam papers if you meet that criteria. that's all that matters to them.
Another thing is availability. If you fail a student, they will occupy a seat and a set of equipment to in the lab next semester. They will also mess up some schedules because they have to carry that course over . So it seems easier to pass them than deal with that.
There are more factors that escape my mind, but i believe there is also a bigger problem. It is extremely hard to get a job in this generation without a degree, so people go to some university and do some major just to get that piece of paper that lands them a job. It didn't used to be like that. 1 or 2 generations ago, you could get a job without a degree, so people had to make a decision to go to university, and many of them did it for the passion of the subject matter. I'd ask freshman students why they chose their major and what they know about it. In my ~5 years of teaching, not one student gave me a satisfying answer.
PS: bare in mind that i teach in a "3rd world" country, and it might not be accurate to extrapolate that experience to other parts of the world, but i did see those findings first hand in places you could call respectable.
Guess what, universities don't give a shit. If they stand to make 20 grand off of you, for giving you a piece of paper...then why should they give a shit?
I wrote a dissertation during that time...who the fuck cares?
I remember being so frustrated with my family when they were excited with me graduating, asking me if I was proud of myself - "No, I'm not.. Because there are people who solely attended - who achieved the same grade as I did" [which was the top you could achieve]
I see this type of thread all too often - ample amounts of advice followed by complete ignorance of what has been offered.
At graduation i was mad about how the people that did fck all got the same grades as other people that actually tried to make something out of the assignments. My parents didn't understand why i was angry though. Eventually i was happy i could just leave that place forever.
Also other school projects i worked on in the past are still being used during student recruitment days to show off what they could learn/create if they were to join, even though i applied skills there that weren't even taught at the school, for the project i got an average grade because of an incomplete administration... :susp:
Meanwhile some pieces of garbage from other students got high marks just because they ticked all the boxes on the checklist instead of creating something presentable.
Gotta love the grading system...
I'm not saying this work is incredible but it's clearly of a much higher standard than the work on this post. Don't be so quick to judge an entire university by one incompetent student
Wow.
But that doesn't change the fact that the university has failed Howard in that they have let him this far in the course.
I agree. I couldn't believe it when I found out he made it to third year. And I'm not defending the guy, this work is by far 'industry standard' which is what we're aiming for.
All I was saying is that the quality of the university itself shouldn't be reflected by one student who doesn't excel in a certain area of games design on a course that focuses on game design in general (and not just 3D Art).
Also, the work posted wasn't mine. It was by a few other people on the same course.
P&P http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127651
On top of this it was mentioned in his assignment that he HAD to post this to a forum. I doubt he would be posting here for feedback if his assignment wasn't forcing him to do so. I think people just posting here because their school is making them really brings down the integrity of what polycount is about.
The issue is that some people start off poor but it isn't indicative of where they're going to be. For some of these people it may be the first time they've ever really put themselves out in the public eye and they may not be used to getting critiques. Hopefully they'll open up and listen to well crafted advice.
If they're outright ignoring critiques, well then, they're probably not going to get jobs in most cases. I think the people that post here for a grade will weed themselves out in the way that they'll either listen to critique and get better or they leave because they won't be able to handle the hard truth that their work is poor and they won't be able to find a job.
I'm guessing you aren't familiar with the old Requests subforum or GD before the current rules where established? Requests was pretty much the troll cesspool, an almost completely separate community.
He has given them the same response.
This is the stubbornness of this individual and is no way a reflection upon the teaching at staffs.
Please don't paint us all with the same brush.
my issue is that he's even been allowed to make it to the third year of the course. to quote Praetus:
he's a third year student. he hasn't started off poor, he's had two previous years that have led to his current ability. which isn't good enough for a third year student, period.
then again, i'm very much aware of the politics of for profit schooling and their attitude toward grading.
Believe or not his previous stuff is nowhere near as bad as this, I don't know the guy but he has definitely got worse over the summer rather than better.
Anyhow, I see students who would rather play video games and Magic the Gathering than actually improving upon their skills who get the same end grades I do because they were in class, and met the milestones. I often don't meet all the milestones/requisites of a project, but always push my work to the extent of my current ability, and past my last work everytime. I want to be an enironment artist/texturer, so I constantly watch tuts on the subject, and post stuff here to learn. Things I don't ever see some of my classmates EVER doing. I have had a teacher recently tell me a model of mine is being used in his classes to show students what to strive for in their work (not that I'm a master at all, but an example of not turning in shit-on-a-stick)- a model I am not even super happy with anymore.
My feeling on art schools is this:
Cons:
1. After you have spent a massive amount of money already on a degree, you realize that a lot of your previous classes did not prepare you for more advance subjects-this is obviously were what you put into it is a great help in actually excelling. The schools know this I think, but they also know that at that point, you have spent too much money to back out and NOT have the piece of paper. You will finish the schooling and give them another 20K for their coffers.
2.It is true that an instructor/class can't teach you everything, and that you HAVE to put the time into finding tuts, posting work/taking feedback, and actually looking at your own stuff and seriously analyzing your strengths/weaknesses to grow at whatever you want to do. Unfortunately, I think a lot of teachers use this as a crutch to not show you how to do things properly because they don't care, or don't know the workflows or have the knowledge themselves to be honest. This really ticks me off. I have had some seriously questionable instruction/teachers in my time at school. I have asked teachers why we don't don't use a certain workflow (something I want to try instead), and they say I'm trying to do it the hard way when the majority of the net, and peeps on here, say the exact opposite.
I could ponder more, and write more cons but this will do for now.
Pros:
1. Before I came to school, I knew nothing about game art/developement at all. School at least opened the door to a whole new realm for me. But this is where this pro ends really. I could have left school after the 3rd/4th term and just learned the rest on my own I think.
2. Networking-The people you meet at school could be your next boss, or get you a job in the future.
The OP is NOT listening to advice on here, but instead seems to be regressing on this project IMO. I recently saw a fellow classmate of mine ask for critiques on his portfolio that was full of bad concept art, very basic models from the first modeling class with horrible lighting and bright standard materials yadda yadda. The same person is sending this portfolio to a bunch of AAA game companies in hopes of a job. It is not going to happen. Too many people are not willing to take harsh advice, or no one is giving it to them in the hopes of sparing their feelings.
I you are listening OP, start over like everyone has said. Watch tuts till your eyes bleed, and try to listen to advice. Anatomy is tough. 3d art is tough. You will get better if you try, and take constructive feedback for what it is-An attempt to help you and make you grow.
Just keep trying.
End of rant:poly142:
Another part that I thought was great about it was that I was curious to see how some more stubborn people were going to react to polycount's critique. Sometimes people can ignore the critique they get in a class because, for whatever reason, they have dismissed the opinions of their peers and teacher. But if they post here and get slammed they could come to the realization that they have gone off track somewhere. I felt that if they didn't take in critique here they wouldn't take in critique anywhere but there is a chance that polycount will be a wake up call.
Reading in this thread about this kind of thing bringing down the integrity of polycount makes me feel a little like a guest at a party who has come in with dog shit on their shoe and gotten it everywhere. I really like polycount though so I'm not going to leave. I just hope that if I am one of the lazy artists that is being referred to then people should let me know on my threads and I promise I'll listen.
nono, fuck that, and fuck those guys.
everyone of every skill level should be posting here in order to get good feedback that they can use to better themselves.
that's not the issue here (for me, at least).
Each night, I stay up till the early mornings studying anatomy and browsing the forum, trying not to bug unless it were really needed. I have a dream that I want to realize and my family & peers see my growth daily. I'm positive that there are many more like me that want that same goal. I send by people daily who are looking for help, but if people are going to act stuck-up just because a person seems rubbish then what does that make us look like?
I agree, that Howard's ignorance towards all of the advice is visibly frustrating, but who knows. Maybe those people whom allowed Howard to pass left some sort of imprint, like a boot on his mentality of thinking. I'd be extremely pale seeing all of the comments rushing down the page at how all I had done was for naught. He hasn't returned yet... I honestly feel bad that his peers didn't give him a shake about his work. From what I've seen, the students are perfectly capable. When I read the title of the thread, I thought that I'd be in for something that took my breath away, but it was fairly depressing. When I saw how close he was to graduation, I was completely shocked. Again, the title is misleading and from what he knows, this is "Advanced 3D Modeling".
Money is one thing, but when you play with someone's hopes, it's just about as low as a person can go.
but it is for the passion that we do this, we are all growing and getting better I really hope howard doesn't view this as negative i hope he uses this to fuel the fires and come back and drop an epic model!
But thats the thing....i feel sometimes you need to be harsh because if someone things thier work is epic and has a stubborn nature about them....which it seems like he does based on comments made by ppl that know him...you do that not to be mean but to kinda get thier attention, i mean shit ive been in the same boat.....i thought i knew how to normal maps a while back and i was like all yall giving me advice about the normal maps just seemed like more work and i wasn't growing bc i was not seeing it due to my stubbornness until my mate was like hey arse face here is why you do this...and then i felt like an idiot hahaha
Sure. But this isn't always the case. If I read things correctly, one of his classmates said that the only reason this thread got started was because it was an assignment to make a thread on Polycount. While I feel that it certainly was in good intentions of the teacher to send them here, I think that making it obligatory isn't the right way to handle this.
By all means, educators, tell your students about forums like these, but don't force them here. Have their own level of effort filter them out. You can't force a lazy student to become unlazy, and threads like these take away attention from students that actually want to learn.
Maybe Howard is still lurking on the forum,reading everything we put down here but afraid to continue posting after the big backlash on page 3.
If this is the case, howard, don't be affraid to post, we are all here to help you, though because of the nature of how internet works, we can only help by giving you pointers on what to do, you are the one that actually has to make the changes and heed the advice.
If you are starting over, just a small note saying,
"thx im redoing the model" is enough info to get the positive feedback/help train starting again.
This is true, however, it's not so easy to just blow off harsh criticism. It sits at the back of your mind on every model you make, every texture you paint. That's the beauty of it! You work on a model and ask yourself "is this good enough?" instead of settling for something sub-par.
I really do hope that OP looks at a couple of these pages. Some of the crap published by the commenters won't help him and such comments are really just inflammatory in nature.. But there are some really neat pointers and tips established here.
And Cglewis is right! I posted a really poor model a while back (some astronaut) which I'd picked up again to texture, and it got torn to bloody shreds. That pushed me to learn facial anatomy and focus on the details of a face. No more half-measures!
Howard, you'd better use these critiques to your advantage and bust out a kickass model someday!
I honestly hope I did not make you feel this way and if I do I apologize. Polycount is a great place, and I directly attribute my growth as an artist to the people on this board. I will say though, that the reason I stayed here was because the critiques I received on this board were harsh reviews that made me reconsider my path as an artist. They also motivated me to get off my ass and improve. I love Polycount because of the tough love that was given to me that other boards would not give. On other boards my work was critiqued with "kid gloves" and because I never heard anything I didn't want to hear, I never improved.
By all means I hope that Howard reads all of this. I hope it all sinks in. At the end of the day I hope it makes him look at his work, rip it to shreds and do the proper research and work to improve himself as an artist. I wouldn't say that anyone here wants to see him fail, but people do tend to get upset when good advice isn't followed. Don't me put off by the naysayers; instead take their critiques and use them as fuel to improve.
And honestly I probably shouldn't have felt like that because I don't think that they were referring to me. I think the main thing that compelled me to post on this thread was in defense of my class that had us post to forums. It was so damn beneficial for some people, like me, that it seems like it's worth it even if some people post, don't take critique and then peter out.
Either way I was never going to let it get to me. My ass will probably be posting to polycount for a while and I would love if people stopped by my threads and tore me up. The quicker you get torn up, the quicker you get better.
[. the forum QUOTE=almighty_gir;1948102]nono, fuck that, and fuck those guys.
everyone of every skill level should be posting here in order to get good feedback that they can use to better themselves.
that's not the issue here (for me, at least).[/QUOTE]
I guess he's not returning anymore
Which is what critique should do - it should make you think and approach things differently. It shouldn't make you feel maligned. I'm right there with you hoping he pulls through and does something that really shines, but there's no way to tell unless he posts again.