How about force collaboration (if its going to be big) for everyone?
You just have to create the list of people and make them do the set or something.
There are actually many ways this can go. Either people are assigned semi-random* to a team and roles are then chosen by the team as a whole, or you can have a person have a random role (to explore different aspects) assigned to a team that doesn't have that role assigned.
This way, inexperienced (like myself) can learn while working with people that have experience.
People who want to join into the competition later probably would either join an existing team or with other people that want to join the competition. People can join more than one team for late comers.
-Semi-random = people who have submitted items to dota 2 are paired with people that haven't.
This might be a little complicated to set up, but there will be more people learning different ways of creating the game assets. Perhaps this idea should be a brand new section?
So my idea is really trying to make unskilled people more skilled as well as take very skilled people out of their comfort zone (doing other aspects of making game assets).
I know this is long and probably won't happen, but i'm just throwing it out there.
i would love to have a competition for a not crowded heroslot, like: arms back or neck .. anything with a low triangle limit, to show its possible to create nice looking quality stuff there.
Since the workshop was flooded with korean culture related items why not explore some other cultures? Personally I didn't like that amount of asian stuff in there eventough some were really well made but considering the diversity in cultures out there I might say why not? This could work multiple ways: either go for any culture related item or everyone is bound to his own culture (and people who work as teams could just work on one of each's) - this would prevent the workshop from being flooded from only one culture like it happened with the korean stuff.
do good work and do what you like, this is an international game with artists from all over the world doing assets, this protectionism is just stupid. No one is flooding the workshop, it was just one bigger event, including western artists from this forum doing korean inspired pieces.
Maybe a mythology theme would be pretty cool? As in you make items based on any mythological pantheon. Might be a bit restrictive idk, but I'd like to see what people come up with ^^
How about force collaboration (if its going to be big) for everyone?
You just have to create the list of people and make them do the set or something.
There are actually many ways this can go. Either people are assigned semi-random* to a team and roles are then chosen by the team as a whole, or you can have a person have a random role (to explore different aspects) assigned to a team that doesn't have that role assigned.
This way, inexperienced (like myself) can learn while working with people that have experience.
People who want to join into the competition later probably would either join an existing team or with other people that want to join the competition. People can join more than one team for late comers.
-Semi-random = people who have submitted items to dota 2 are paired with people that haven't.
This might be a little complicated to set up, but there will be more people learning different ways of creating the game assets. Perhaps this idea should be a brand new section?
So my idea is really trying to make unskilled people more skilled as well as take very skilled people out of their comfort zone (doing other aspects of making game assets).
I know this is long and probably won't happen, but i'm just throwing it out there.
Not that i would want to sound too selfish, but what would be in it for the more skilled folks?
Yeah I have to agree that forced collaboration is not a good idea. It would inevitably cause problems between some teams and I see no problem with the current system of allowing collabs if people want to.
How about force collaboration (if its going to be big) for everyone?
You just have to create the list of people and make them do the set or something.
There are actually many ways this can go. Either people are assigned semi-random* to a team and roles are then chosen by the team as a whole, or you can have a person have a random role (to explore different aspects) assigned to a team that doesn't have that role assigned.
This way, inexperienced (like myself) can learn while working with people that have experience.
People who want to join into the competition later probably would either join an existing team or with other people that want to join the competition. People can join more than one team for late comers.
-Semi-random = people who have submitted items to dota 2 are paired with people that haven't.
This might be a little complicated to set up, but there will be more people learning different ways of creating the game assets. Perhaps this idea should be a brand new section?
So my idea is really trying to make unskilled people more skilled as well as take very skilled people out of their comfort zone (doing other aspects of making game assets).
I know this is long and probably won't happen, but i'm just throwing it out there.
Quite agree with Neox in this...being forced to go out of our comfort zone would mean, deliver something lower quality than we normally would (in my opinion).
The thing with Dota 2 is that there is money involved, and when there is money involved (unless you don't care about money), you wanna try your best to just get things into the game... being forced to work with unexperienced people would mean lowering your chances in pure cold economic mindset...again, in my opinion.
I see collaboration working as a mutual learning experience if both parties have something to share - so it wouldn't be paired based on skill, but on abilities - a modeler with an animator, a concept artist with a modeler, etc. Problem is, there aren't a lot of animators, and most modelers already come up with their own concepts. As it is, there are no restrictions to collaborating on the monthly competitions, and I think it works better that way. The people who want to work with other people already search each other out.
how about you stop criticizing everyone's idea and actually come up with one of your own?
How about, this is a forum to discuss things? It was a question not a crit.
I don't mind going out of my comfortzone, i concepted pieces for dota as well even tho design and concepting isn't my biggest strength, usually i have people for this. Okay i could start animating, that would really be uncomfortable but it would also lower the value of my asset.
It really is a serious question, what is in it for the people who you would count to the "skilled"?
I don't even talk about myself, and i also do not mind sharing knowledge.
But i don't see how this should work, besides just beeing a braindrain from the side of the so called skilled, to the unskilled.
That braindrain will bring the possibility for unskilled to get money, money from a market they possibly couldn't produce before - so what is in it for the other side?
the way foxclover described it, is much better for both sides of this partnership, tho this is happening all the time as described as well.
About the korean flood you claim to see, i don't see a single item in this weeks charts that i would say is genuinely korean and something that is clearly not from an artist from another country. Your idea was no idea, if judged hard it could as well be called nationalism and this is surely something i don't want to see in such a great international market/product/community.
Since the workshop was flooded with korean culture related items why not explore some other cultures? Personally I didn't like that amount of asian stuff in there eventough some were really well made but considering the diversity in cultures out there I might say why not? This could work multiple ways: either go for any culture related item or everyone is bound to his own culture (and people who work as teams could just work on one of each's) - this would prevent the workshop from being flooded from only one culture like it happened with the korean stuff.
I like the cultural background idea, but the nazi stuff around it makes me say no. If you want the cultural diversity, then you have to accept korea inspired pieces as well, but no you also didn't like that amount of asian stuff. Dota has a wide variety of cultural influences and the rules are pretty simple, make it fit the universe. Stuff that is overly cultural influenced gets already ruled out by the community, just look at what happened to the alpine stalker.
How about, this is a forum to discuss things? It was a question not a crit.
I don't mind going out of my comfortzone, i concepted pieces for dota as well even tho design and concepting isn't my biggest strength, usually i have people for this. Okay i could start animating, that would really be uncomfortable but it would also lower the value of my asset.
It really is a serious question, what is in it for the people who you would count to the "skilled"?
I don't even talk about myself, and i also do not mind sharing knowledge.
But i don't see how this should work, besides just beeing a braindrain from the side of the so called skilled, to the unskilled.
That braindrain will bring the possibility for unskilled to get money, money from a market they possibly couldn't produce before - so what is in it for the other side?
the way foxclover described it, is much better for both sides of this partnership, tho this is happening all the time as described as well.
About the korean flood you claim to see, i don't see a single item in this weeks charts that i would say is genuinely korean and something that is clearly not from an artist from another country. Your idea was no idea, if judged hard it could as well be called nationalism and this is surely something i don't want to see in such a great international market/product/community.
Maybe unskilled ones (like me) can share their ideas with skilled ones. And if the skilled ones like the idea they can do the creating part with unskilled one. With this unskilled ones can learn how to create better and they can earn little money like %30 percent and the skilled ones would earn money (like they always do) by buying the idea.
By the way, sorry if i sounded arrogant by putting myself in the "skilled" category with my words...honestly though after 7 years doing this job i also don't feel a "newbie".
In general the idea of the "skilled" sharing their experience with the "unskilled" is always an excelent idea, i just don't feel this is they way to go with it.
Forcing people to team up (and forcing in general people to do things) is never a good idea, and it could probably bring many not to join the contest at all.
Talking with a friend about this thing, he actually gave me a quite nice alternative in my opinion.
Organize a contest, where partecipants take videos of their walkthrough (or to not make it a damn HUGE amount of videos, just samples of each step to produce the final model).
Post the videos (or samples) of your work, and let people give you advices on them.
Same for "skilled" people, but the video of these will be more aimed to learn than to criticize i guess....
Pretty much everyone post samples of their works and whoever watch them can learn or criticize the walkthrough.
Plus is not a new thing for "experienced" artists to produce making of videos of their works, or even stream them live while they do it. Anuxi, TVidotto, SithHappens (liveworkshop.com), Nannou, Helenek, and myself as well (and sorry if i forgot someone) produced a lot of video material that is there exaclty for this purpose, share some of our experience with less skilled people.
Maybe unskilled ones (like me) can share their ideas with skilled ones. And if the skilled ones like the idea they can do the creating part with unskilled one. With this unskilled ones can learn how to create better and they can earn little money like %30 percent and the skilled ones would earn money (like they always do) by buying the idea.
I don't really get the idea. You can watch a lot of artists and learn just looking on this forum, there's even a thread with a lot of tutorials for Dota 2: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123800
Just giving an idea and waiting someone to do it for you, won't give you any skill. You need to try and make mistakes and then you'll get better.
btw, I like HFresch ideia, mythology is a good theme.
How about, this is a forum to discuss things? It was a question not a crit.
I don't mind going out of my comfortzone, i concepted pieces for dota as well even tho design and concepting isn't my biggest strength, usually i have people for this. Okay i could start animating, that would really be uncomfortable but it would also lower the value of my asset.
It really is a serious question, what is in it for the people who you would count to the "skilled"?
I don't even talk about myself, and i also do not mind sharing knowledge.
But i don't see how this should work, besides just beeing a braindrain from the side of the so called skilled, to the unskilled.
That braindrain will bring the possibility for unskilled to get money, money from a market they possibly couldn't produce before - so what is in it for the other side?
the way foxclover described it, is much better for both sides of this partnership, tho this is happening all the time as described as well.
About the korean flood you claim to see, i don't see a single item in this weeks charts that i would say is genuinely korean and something that is clearly not from an artist from another country. Your idea was no idea, if judged hard it could as well be called nationalism and this is surely something i don't want to see in such a great international market/product/community.
I like the cultural background idea, but the nazi stuff around it makes me say no. If you want the cultural diversity, then you have to accept korea inspired pieces as well, but no you also didn't like that amount of asian stuff. Dota has a wide variety of cultural influences and the rules are pretty simple, make it fit the universe. Stuff that is overly cultural influenced gets already ruled out by the community, just look at what happened to the alpine stalker.
First of all I really don't know what forum you are actually relating to. Let me fix it for you: "this is a forum for pros to discuss things". You might want to take a look at the smaller guys for a second and see that not many "pros" bother replying to them. The person who suggested this idea was GhostDetector and if you'd check his thread you'd see that not many bothered helping out with a small suggestion here and there.
Even so, I agree that the idea he proposed was bad but when everybody keeps ignoring, you don't much of an alternative. I'm also a nab in this community (6 months or so since I started modelling) but I managed to get lucky by finding a 2D partner.
I am not a nationalist or whatever you would like to call it, I actually despise my country if that makes you feel any better. All I wanted to say was that I PERSONALLY did not like the view of having so many "asian" items in the same time because I got tired of asian-like games/mmos that i played throughout time. I didn't put the knife to anyone's throat, I did not kill anyone, I shared my opinion. I have all the respect for the artists who made those since a lot of them were incredibly well made and I'm not sure I could even make something half as good.
And yeah, nazis. That's exactly what we were all thinking about when I suggested that idea. Not even close to the actual cultural/historical/mythological part of a country. But I guess mocking is just on your daily To Do list.
Also I respect you as an artist, especially since that new golem of yours is one of my favorite workshop items, but honestly I don't really care what you like or what you actually do. Just keep it short next time.
btw, I like HFresch ideia, mythology is a good theme.
Thanks, I still believe it would be cool to see mythological references in designs
* * *
And now my two cents on the "forced collaboration" idea. Obviously it's terrible, as pointed out by others, so I won't go into that. However, if we really want to go that way, how about this:
In the competition, everyone must submit an item based on another user's concept. This means not only that there is an opportunity for concept artists (like myself) to shine, but that experienced designers have a chance to collaborate in a way they haven't prioritized before.
tl;dr - Alternate proposal to the collaboration idea. A monthly contest where people can only submit items based on other people's concepts.
i am against forced collabos, but it may be possible that there are not fixed teams in start of the months challenge, and then concept artists just post their sketches and modellers,animators,- whatever could *apply* for a concept they rly like - and then team up with that guy(s). this would also let the possibility open that Onilolz applies for Zaphks concept and she picks him - so she can team up with her mate without beeing forced to do anything with someone other (IF SHE DOES NOT WANT TO DO SO^^)
and as idea for the next challenge:
i would also like to see an arabic nights fairy tail theme
like djins, flying carpets (i know ti3smeevil -.-), those funny arabic oldschool shoes, desertoutfits, camelcouriers, sickel daggers ... dno ...
It seems we have gone from debating the THEME of the monthly contest to the RULES of the monthly contest. I really don't think the rules we have been using up until now were causing any problems. The format for this monthly contest has already been laid out and personally, I see no reason for it to change. This isn't to say that we couldn't make another monthly event with some of the above ideas, like forced collab, that way the people who want to take part in it that one can do.
That being said, we still need a theme for this month. So far we have had (really sorry if I missed any others that don't change the rules):
- Misc slot
- Single items for dire heroes (Didn't we do this in July?)
- Full set
- Items for No-More-Than-2-Legs heroes
- Cultural
- Not crowded heroslot, like: arms back or neck
- Mythology
- Arabic nights fairy tail theme (possibly fits into cultural?)
Misc gets my vote although it was said it might be too narrow.
i guess something simple for a change might be good, so i guess a single slot would be a nice thing. to me at least.
back to the discussion, even though we might not agree on everything, i still think this is good and healthy.
first of all i'm not trying to mock you godzy, i disliked the anti asian part of your idea, and i just described in detail why. I'm sorry if my english is too limited to bring it over properly. There is no flood, it was a contest, thats all.
"this is a forum for pros to discuss things"
What i write now is not solely for you
You don't seem to see that all these pros have been beginners once, starting in this community might be rough, but it worked out for many of "us". Me included, i learned so damn much here in the past years, and i guess i also gave back with crits and feedback. But no beginner gets this stuff for free, one may have to ask the right questions at the right time or just search and read. A part of this progress is also seeking for infos trying them out and porting things over to the personal workflow. One might fail or learn "wrong" things, but failures are part of the progress as well. One has to make them to learn.
Don't get me started on how easy it is these days to get informations to learn from for free, when some of the pros started going to polycount there was no such ting as youtube or dota guides or big tutorial communities or paid learning services. And still somehow, some of the former beginners became professionals, without getting everything delivered on a silver spoon. It's all part of the journey to become a pro that makes people as experienced as they are today.
I have no doubt that you will reach that level,and plenty of others here as well, it takes dedication and some will fail, thats just how it goes. Don't rant this community because the tone might be a bit rougher at times.
And 6 months, man you've grown fast, and i am pretty certain this is also thanks to polycount - i know my work of the first few years was way worse. Thanks for proving my point
I realize the dire heroes has already been done, but that's kind of the point. I think the focus is too much on trying to come up with something new, and eventually we're going to keep narrowing down the theme more and more and limiting the possibilities (as well as decreasing participation). It doesn't hurt to rotate through more broad themes. We're still going to be making fresh art even if we've used the theme before, and it will draw a bigger crowd since people will most likely be able to do something they want to do.
I like to use the monthly comp as an excuse to make a single item rather than a set. That's a personal preference, but i'll be leaning toward anything that goes along those lines.
as far as the discussion that's been happening...i think some "newbies" around here (a group in which i count myself) should try not to foster feelings of entitlement or resentment. nobody is required to train or tutor you. siphon knowledge where you can - ask questions when you have them and listen to the answers you get, but being on polycount does not mean you get to demand special treatment from people who are trying to make money with the work they're doing.
Say thank you for the help you do get and keep your nose to the grind stone until you are in a position to help others.
my vote is for misc. slot.
I don't think doing something new is causing us a problem. if we narrow everything down so that we need to redo and old theme we should at least use up any new ones we can come up with first.
i guess something simple for a change might be good, so i guess a single slot would be a nice thing. to me at least.
back to the discussion, even though we might not agree on everything, i still think this is good and healthy.
first of all i'm not trying to mock you godzy, i disliked the anti asian part of your idea, and i just described in detail why. I'm sorry if my english is too limited to bring it over properly. There is no flood, it was a contest, thats all.
What i write now is not solely for you
You don't seem to see that all these pros have been beginners once, starting in this community might be rough, but it worked out for many of "us". Me included, i learned so damn much here in the past years, and i guess i also gave back with crits and feedback. But no beginner gets this stuff for free, one may have to ask the right questions at the right time or just search and read. A part of this progress is also seeking for infos trying them out and porting things over to the personal workflow. One might fail or learn "wrong" things, but failures are part of the progress as well. One has to make them to learn.
Don't get me started on how easy it is these days to get informations to learn from for free, when some of the pros started going to polycount there was no such ting as youtube or dota guides or big tutorial communities or paid learning services. And still somehow, some of the former beginners became professionals, without getting everything delivered on a silver spoon. It's all part of the journey to become a pro that makes people as experienced as they are today.
I have no doubt that you will reach that level,and plenty of others here as well, it takes dedication and some will fail, thats just how it goes. Don't rant this community because the tone might be a bit rougher at times.
And 6 months, man you've grown fast, and i am pretty certain this is also thanks to polycount - i know my work of the first few years was way worse. Thanks for proving my point
well that's the thing. i didn't bother people on the forum with my problems. 90% of what i know i learned on my own and i'm sorry but it wasn't here (only recently i saw some things that i found really helpful - the hair sculpt and the whitebakes). the only thing that i complain about is that recently i asked some stuff on the workshop thread, people ignored my posts repetedly, but here's the irony: they answered the very next 2-3 guys if not more that posted after me. c'mon u gotta admit that's not cool. and the things that i asked were just concept related on a tide set im trying to make with NFWar.
well that's the thing. i didn't bother people on the forum with my problems. 90% of what i know i learned on my own and i'm sorry but it wasn't here (only recently i saw some things that i found really helpful - the hair sculpt and the whitebakes). the only thing that i complain about is that recently i asked some stuff on the workshop thread, people ignored my posts repetedly, but here's the irony: they answered the very next 2-3 guys if not more that posted after me. c'mon u gotta admit that's not cool. and the things that i asked were just concept related on a tide set im trying to make with NFWar.
Well that's just kinda how it goes here. I saw that tide set, but what was there to say about it? Some of the hardest things to comment on are those that are "middling" - the ones that don't blow your mind but at the same time arent terrible. And even if i knew that the tide set didn't look spectacular to me, who would i have been as an artist to suggest that something like maybe the whole style didn't suit my taste?
I wouldn't be surprised if others feel the same way. My original sets never got any attention or comments either. In fact the majority of the support or critique i've gotten is as a result of my participation in the community through the hangouts and competitions, rather than the strength of my work (though my work has gotten better through participating). And sometimes you don't really need comments to benefit from being here - just looking through what people are working on, seeing how they do things can be a huge benefit in itself.
Anyway back to the theme discussion, the misc slot one is a really cool idea. Whilst I'm not likely to participate this month, the misc slot sounds as interesting to me as the last 2 months.
I agree with reverendK. I usually think about the Monthly Competition as a place to make single items for, since people usually do sets all the time, and they take a while to do (over a month if you want something really good at least).
I don't think having real world strong cultural influences would be that good. Sure, there are lots of items with references a touches from a lot of mythologies, races and cultures, but I think that it narrows down too much the heroes which would fit on said categories if we choose it as a theme.
I'd personally vote for single items with themes like purple, red, blue or green heroes, two-legged heroes or heroes with over two legs, humanoids, swords only, staffs only, helmets only, hairs only, etc.
well that's the thing. i didn't bother people on the forum with my problems. 90% of what i know i learned on my own and i'm sorry but it wasn't here (only recently i saw some things that i found really helpful - the hair sculpt and the whitebakes). the only thing that i complain about is that recently i asked some stuff on the workshop thread, people ignored my posts repetedly, but here's the irony: they answered the very next 2-3 guys if not more that posted after me. c'mon u gotta admit that's not cool. and the things that i asked were just concept related on a tide set im trying to make with NFWar.
I guess you and me started around the same time eh! With that said, and I am not attacking you here, I feel you got a bit too emotional about not getting a response. I tell you man, I asked for feedback so many times I fail to count. I don't get feedback at all, which is fine. You know why? Because it only means, to me, that I need to up my work further. It might or might not be the intention of the other PC members, but it is a good way to think about it. Though, whenever I do get a comment, it was from mixed type of people; pros and beginners. I listen to all.
On the flip side, I do feel a lot of pros are protective, but then, I don't see why they shouldn't be. I imagine they get bothered by beginners quite often, or that they feel the time they spent getting to their situation others have to do the same or whatever the reason is, the fact remains, it is their choice!
I agree with Neox on the amount of learning material available, it is staggering! A one hour video will take you weeks to even get something good learned from it. For me, I have pages pinned, pages bookmarked, videos, following streams, artists added on steam for quick questions, bought hardcopy books (yes they are quite useful!) and experiment!
I went from flatout ZERO in May 2013 to having almost 9 items in the workshop by end of October 2013. All are atleast 4 stars! (it matters to me, tiny little ). If that is not a testament to the help I got from a lot of people here and the usefulness of this forums, I don't know what is!
P.S. Tvi, stop working on that PA set and come decide the theme of Nov!
Well winter is coming, we should do some gloves and misc slots
I was thinking winter/ice heroes would be cool, but there's only 5 of them in game right now and only 4 of those are available for items. I like the idea of doing misc slots or any slot that isn't weapon/offhand/head. It'd be cool to have crates branch out to more interesting items than just weapons and helmets for 95% of the items in them.
Not that i would want to sound too selfish, but what would be in it for the more skilled folks?
The only thing for the skilled folks is working with a group, meeting new people, exploring different aspects of making game assests (Model, Textureing, Sculpting, Animating) . Say a skilled person somebody was good at modelling but not texturing, for this competition he goes to texturing. By the way these competitions aren't really about winning or submitting items to dota 2 workshop and getting it accepted (you can do that by yourself), its really about learning and honing skills. That's why we put WIP so people can comment and make suggestions, see mistakes that the designer couldn't.
I don't really get the idea. You can watch a lot of artists and learn just looking on this forum, there's even a thread with a lot of tutorials for Dota 2: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123800
Just giving an idea and waiting someone to do it for you, won't give you any skill. You need to try and make mistakes and then you'll get better
Learning from reading or videos isn't really the same as learning from a person. In the process of making the items, the group would have immediate criticism.
I wasn't implying that the beginners just give concepts and the skilled does the rest. I only meant that beginners do work with more experienced people so when the person submits his work to the team he will get a skilled person's perspective.
Making mistakes doesn't make you better, you need to know your mistakes and learn from them to get better. You need criticism, someone to tell them their mistakes. If you look back at your art you made and loved years ago and see it now, you would probably notice mistakes. People won't be able to correct their mistakes if they are bias to their work.
I did say at the end of my post that this probably wouldn't happen because its complicated and skilled people have the less to gain.
Example. A skilled modeler does texturing, A skilled person who does texturing does modelling, they both work together and tell each other how to do things. And in the end, they both learn knew things in areas they weren't as strong.
-For the people who are able to do all aspects of game art, then they should choose their weakest skill.
Sorry for bringing this topic back up but since I made the post, I felt like I should explain a bit more since people didn't really grasp the concept of trying new areas.
----
About the winter items, do you guys think that Valve will allow winter theme items for frostvious, if so, then we can make that the competition.
By the way these competitions aren't really about winning or submitting items to dota 2 workshop and getting it accepted (you can do that by yourself)
hehe
i understand your idea, but i don't think it will work too great, tho i don't mind a mandatory team. But I fear some might not be able to find a partner and therefore will feel left out. As godzy with his post nobody replied on, stuff like that happens.
Learning from reading or videos isn't really the same as learning from a person. In the process of making the items, the group would have immediate criticism.
True but mentoring takes time and dedication and still, as said before back when i started learning this stuff the internet was way smaller with way less opportunities to learn and still people became better in time.
Before the internet people often had to learn on their own or even pay their mentors and work for them for almost nothing for years to come to pay their debt.
You can learn a lot from others, even by just looking at their work and putting thought into how they approached stuff. If the approach isn't the same, so be it, you still learned something.
Nothing of the stuff you learned for free on the internet is granted, and yet people call for more, down to a personal training. If someone wants to do that on his own, or someone manages such an opportunity (see summer bootcamp by Jacque Choi) this is great and people should be thankful, but making it mandatory will only scare away a lot of people.
To me this contest is not about winning, or learning, to me it gives an opportunity to team up with people and work within a given theme in a given timeframe. Deadlines are great to get things done.
@godzy: don't only look at the dota forum of polycount the technical talk forum is filled with informations, the wiki is as well. Anything you learn will make you a better artist in general not just for dota.
i understand your idea, but i don't think it will work too great, tho i don't mind a mandatory team. But I fear some might not be able to find a partner and therefore will feel left out. As godzy with his post nobody replied on, stuff like that happens.
There are a few bugs in the idea and I hoped the community would decide for it, I mentioned a possibility on my first post.
True but mentoring takes time and dedication and still, as said before back when i started learning this stuff the internet was way smaller with way less opportunities to learn and still people became better in time.
Before the internet people often had to learn on their own or even pay their mentors and work for them for almost nothing for years to come to pay their debt.
You can learn a lot from others, even by just looking at their work and putting thought into how they approached stuff. If the approach isn't the same, so be it, you still learned something.
Nothing of the stuff you learned for free on the internet is granted, and yet people call for more, down to a personal training. If someone wants to do that on his own, or someone manages such an opportunity (see summer bootcamp by Jacque Choi) this is great and people should be thankful, but making it mandatory will only scare away a lot of people.
To me this contest is not about winning, or learning, to me it gives an opportunity to team up with people and work within a given theme in a given timeframe. Deadlines are great to get things done.
Again, looking at other's work isn't the same as learning from someone. For example, Prior gave out some baking methods on his thread, people wouldn't know how to do that unless they took the time experimenting (which they would already need significant knowledge of) or talking to him personally.
Collaborating with someone would enable people to learn other methods and workflows that ease the learning process. People know things that other do not (I did not know about Jacque Choi thanks for that).
Yeah but thats the thing, pior was asked how he tackles stuff and he decided to answer, it was totally optional. Not mandatory, thats the thing - the system already works, people tell other people how they approach stuff and if they want to share that knowledge it will be done.
I didn't say looking at other peoples work is the same as learning from someone, but it is also not like you can't learn anything from it. There is free information all around you, use it.
There is a limit from only learning through references, and just because free information is everywhere, it doesn't mean people knows it is there. For example, I didn't even know Jacque Choi existed until you mention him.
Since this is going off topic, this will be my last post about this topic.
November -> No Shave November -> Bead -> Hair/Beard/Fur
Since Snowstorm already posted a tut on how to sculpt hair this seems like a cool way for some to experiment. And i'm not just talking about hair here, anything containing fur from just a sword with some fur on it's handle to couriers. Pros can be pros and beginners can practice.
November -> No Shave November -> Bead -> Hair/Beard/Fur
Since Snowstorm already posted a tut on how to sculpt hair this seems like a cool way for some to experiment. And i'm not just talking about hair here, anything containing fur from just a sword with some fur on it's handle to couriers. Pros can be pros and beginners can practice.
My 2 cents on the whole newbie/pro collab thing. Personally I like struggling. It give me 2 things. A Huge amount satisfaction after I get it done and the things I learn while struggling tend to really stick.
Besides if I was to work together with a professional I would feel pretty uncomfortable. The whole thing would feel a little parasitic. You know... The guy in the team that doesn't pull his weight. I do not want to be in that position.
The hair/fur idea sounds nice! I call dibs on making Axe a fuzzy patch of chest hair
It seems we have gone from debating the THEME of the monthly contest to the RULES of the monthly contest. I really don't think the rules we have been using up until now were causing any problems. The format for this monthly contest has already been laid out and personally, I see no reason for it to change. This isn't to say that we couldn't make another monthly event with some of the above ideas, like forced collab, that way the people who want to take part in it that one can do.
That being said, we still need a theme for this month. So far we have had (really sorry if I missed any others that don't change the rules):
- Misc slot
- Single items for dire heroes (Didn't we do this in July?)
- Full set
- Items for No-More-Than-2-Legs heroes
- Cultural
- Not crowded heroslot, like: arms back or neck
- Mythology
- Arabic nights fairy tail theme (possibly fits into cultural?)
Misc gets my vote although it was said it might be too narrow.
My bad guys, i was really busy these days and got a little delayed. Someone suggested about another mod, i will check with Adam if that is possible. When the guys made the thead to ask for a mod, the second guy on the votes was Bronto Thunder, he could help a lot here too
about the new competition, i think we could go for the more focused ones, that was the idea when we started the competition months ago, i love the idea of misc items and the not crowded itens
one of the idea of the championship is to get you guys working potentially on the same project, like if you are new on the workshop and you want to make a set for kunkka, if you see someone working on one and follow his progress that will help a lot with some possible problems.
one example i had, i never saw someone working on an antimage set, and i designed a big dragon mask with long hair and a lot of other fancy things. when i got to the lowpoly stage the 250 triangles killed all my idea...
my 2 cents about the idea of the colab from before. I think its much better to
follow streams and take your doubts to there, so you can ask about the stream work or maybe send a picture of yours. its really quick when you are doing a stream and already warmed for the work to give feedback on something.
back to the theme, can we narrow to the more focused ones? i saw people liking the idea on the posts
- Misc slot
- Not crowded heroslot, like: arms back or neck
not crowded could be like "anything else besides armor and head slot"
My 2 cents on the whole newbie/pro collab thing. Personally I like struggling. It give me 2 things. A Huge amount satisfaction after I get it done and the things I learn while struggling tend to really stick.
Besides if I was to work together with a professional I would feel pretty uncomfortable. The whole thing would feel a little parasitic. You know... The guy in the team that doesn't pull his weight. I do not want to be in that position.
Yep this is how I would feel tbh.
Guys just a quick reminder, the Google Hangouts are almost always open and there is generally at least 1 or 2 people in there who are willing to share their ideas. I honestly can't recommend it enough, there has been plenty of times when I've been stuck and guys on the Hangouts have saved me.
November -> No Shave November -> Bead -> Hair/Beard/Fur
Since Snowstorm already posted a tut on how to sculpt hair this seems like a cool way for some to experiment. And i'm not just talking about hair here, anything containing fur from just a sword with some fur on it's handle to couriers. Pros can be pros and beginners can practice.
Nooooooooooooo.... This month was supposed to be my break month!! /despair
i think weapon slots are the most crowded at all, so take them out as well
(but offhand like warlock lantern or unfamous things like that should be allowed so)
Replies
You just have to create the list of people and make them do the set or something.
There are actually many ways this can go. Either people are assigned semi-random* to a team and roles are then chosen by the team as a whole, or you can have a person have a random role (to explore different aspects) assigned to a team that doesn't have that role assigned.
This way, inexperienced (like myself) can learn while working with people that have experience.
People who want to join into the competition later probably would either join an existing team or with other people that want to join the competition. People can join more than one team for late comers.
-Semi-random = people who have submitted items to dota 2 are paired with people that haven't.
This might be a little complicated to set up, but there will be more people learning different ways of creating the game assets. Perhaps this idea should be a brand new section?
So my idea is really trying to make unskilled people more skilled as well as take very skilled people out of their comfort zone (doing other aspects of making game assets).
I know this is long and probably won't happen, but i'm just throwing it out there.
Ro'kar by Vextrakt and Stefco
Ezkir by Vextrakt and Stefco
Not that i would want to sound too selfish, but what would be in it for the more skilled folks?
how about you stop criticizing everyone's idea and actually come up with one of your own?
Quite agree with Neox in this...being forced to go out of our comfort zone would mean, deliver something lower quality than we normally would (in my opinion).
The thing with Dota 2 is that there is money involved, and when there is money involved (unless you don't care about money), you wanna try your best to just get things into the game... being forced to work with unexperienced people would mean lowering your chances in pure cold economic mindset...again, in my opinion.
How about, this is a forum to discuss things? It was a question not a crit.
I don't mind going out of my comfortzone, i concepted pieces for dota as well even tho design and concepting isn't my biggest strength, usually i have people for this. Okay i could start animating, that would really be uncomfortable but it would also lower the value of my asset.
It really is a serious question, what is in it for the people who you would count to the "skilled"?
I don't even talk about myself, and i also do not mind sharing knowledge.
But i don't see how this should work, besides just beeing a braindrain from the side of the so called skilled, to the unskilled.
That braindrain will bring the possibility for unskilled to get money, money from a market they possibly couldn't produce before - so what is in it for the other side?
the way foxclover described it, is much better for both sides of this partnership, tho this is happening all the time as described as well.
About the korean flood you claim to see, i don't see a single item in this weeks charts that i would say is genuinely korean and something that is clearly not from an artist from another country. Your idea was no idea, if judged hard it could as well be called nationalism and this is surely something i don't want to see in such a great international market/product/community.
I like the cultural background idea, but the nazi stuff around it makes me say no. If you want the cultural diversity, then you have to accept korea inspired pieces as well, but no you also didn't like that amount of asian stuff. Dota has a wide variety of cultural influences and the rules are pretty simple, make it fit the universe. Stuff that is overly cultural influenced gets already ruled out by the community, just look at what happened to the alpine stalker.
Maybe unskilled ones (like me) can share their ideas with skilled ones. And if the skilled ones like the idea they can do the creating part with unskilled one. With this unskilled ones can learn how to create better and they can earn little money like %30 percent and the skilled ones would earn money (like they always do) by buying the idea.
In general the idea of the "skilled" sharing their experience with the "unskilled" is always an excelent idea, i just don't feel this is they way to go with it.
Forcing people to team up (and forcing in general people to do things) is never a good idea, and it could probably bring many not to join the contest at all.
Talking with a friend about this thing, he actually gave me a quite nice alternative in my opinion.
Organize a contest, where partecipants take videos of their walkthrough (or to not make it a damn HUGE amount of videos, just samples of each step to produce the final model).
Post the videos (or samples) of your work, and let people give you advices on them.
Same for "skilled" people, but the video of these will be more aimed to learn than to criticize i guess....
Pretty much everyone post samples of their works and whoever watch them can learn or criticize the walkthrough.
Plus is not a new thing for "experienced" artists to produce making of videos of their works, or even stream them live while they do it. Anuxi, TVidotto, SithHappens (liveworkshop.com), Nannou, Helenek, and myself as well (and sorry if i forgot someone) produced a lot of video material that is there exaclty for this purpose, share some of our experience with less skilled people.
And i think with this i said what i think
I don't really get the idea. You can watch a lot of artists and learn just looking on this forum, there's even a thread with a lot of tutorials for Dota 2: http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=123800
Just giving an idea and waiting someone to do it for you, won't give you any skill. You need to try and make mistakes and then you'll get better.
btw, I like HFresch ideia, mythology is a good theme.
First of all I really don't know what forum you are actually relating to. Let me fix it for you: "this is a forum for pros to discuss things". You might want to take a look at the smaller guys for a second and see that not many "pros" bother replying to them. The person who suggested this idea was GhostDetector and if you'd check his thread you'd see that not many bothered helping out with a small suggestion here and there.
Even so, I agree that the idea he proposed was bad but when everybody keeps ignoring, you don't much of an alternative. I'm also a nab in this community (6 months or so since I started modelling) but I managed to get lucky by finding a 2D partner.
I am not a nationalist or whatever you would like to call it, I actually despise my country if that makes you feel any better. All I wanted to say was that I PERSONALLY did not like the view of having so many "asian" items in the same time because I got tired of asian-like games/mmos that i played throughout time. I didn't put the knife to anyone's throat, I did not kill anyone, I shared my opinion. I have all the respect for the artists who made those since a lot of them were incredibly well made and I'm not sure I could even make something half as good.
And yeah, nazis. That's exactly what we were all thinking about when I suggested that idea. Not even close to the actual cultural/historical/mythological part of a country. But I guess mocking is just on your daily To Do list.
Also I respect you as an artist, especially since that new golem of yours is one of my favorite workshop items, but honestly I don't really care what you like or what you actually do. Just keep it short next time.
Thanks, I still believe it would be cool to see mythological references in designs
And now my two cents on the "forced collaboration" idea. Obviously it's terrible, as pointed out by others, so I won't go into that. However, if we really want to go that way, how about this:
tl;dr - Alternate proposal to the collaboration idea. A monthly contest where people can only submit items based on other people's concepts.
and as idea for the next challenge:
i would also like to see an arabic nights fairy tail theme
like djins, flying carpets (i know ti3smeevil -.-), those funny arabic oldschool shoes, desertoutfits, camelcouriers, sickel daggers ... dno ...
That being said, we still need a theme for this month. So far we have had (really sorry if I missed any others that don't change the rules):
- Misc slot
- Single items for dire heroes (Didn't we do this in July?)
- Full set
- Items for No-More-Than-2-Legs heroes
- Cultural
- Not crowded heroslot, like: arms back or neck
- Mythology
- Arabic nights fairy tail theme (possibly fits into cultural?)
Misc gets my vote although it was said it might be too narrow.
back to the discussion, even though we might not agree on everything, i still think this is good and healthy.
first of all i'm not trying to mock you godzy, i disliked the anti asian part of your idea, and i just described in detail why. I'm sorry if my english is too limited to bring it over properly. There is no flood, it was a contest, thats all.
What i write now is not solely for you
You don't seem to see that all these pros have been beginners once, starting in this community might be rough, but it worked out for many of "us". Me included, i learned so damn much here in the past years, and i guess i also gave back with crits and feedback. But no beginner gets this stuff for free, one may have to ask the right questions at the right time or just search and read. A part of this progress is also seeking for infos trying them out and porting things over to the personal workflow. One might fail or learn "wrong" things, but failures are part of the progress as well. One has to make them to learn.
Don't get me started on how easy it is these days to get informations to learn from for free, when some of the pros started going to polycount there was no such ting as youtube or dota guides or big tutorial communities or paid learning services. And still somehow, some of the former beginners became professionals, without getting everything delivered on a silver spoon. It's all part of the journey to become a pro that makes people as experienced as they are today.
I have no doubt that you will reach that level,and plenty of others here as well, it takes dedication and some will fail, thats just how it goes. Don't rant this community because the tone might be a bit rougher at times.
And 6 months, man you've grown fast, and i am pretty certain this is also thanks to polycount - i know my work of the first few years was way worse. Thanks for proving my point
as far as the discussion that's been happening...i think some "newbies" around here (a group in which i count myself) should try not to foster feelings of entitlement or resentment. nobody is required to train or tutor you. siphon knowledge where you can - ask questions when you have them and listen to the answers you get, but being on polycount does not mean you get to demand special treatment from people who are trying to make money with the work they're doing.
Say thank you for the help you do get and keep your nose to the grind stone until you are in a position to help others.
my vote is for misc. slot.
I don't think doing something new is causing us a problem. if we narrow everything down so that we need to redo and old theme we should at least use up any new ones we can come up with first.
well that's the thing. i didn't bother people on the forum with my problems. 90% of what i know i learned on my own and i'm sorry but it wasn't here (only recently i saw some things that i found really helpful - the hair sculpt and the whitebakes). the only thing that i complain about is that recently i asked some stuff on the workshop thread, people ignored my posts repetedly, but here's the irony: they answered the very next 2-3 guys if not more that posted after me. c'mon u gotta admit that's not cool. and the things that i asked were just concept related on a tide set im trying to make with NFWar.
Well that's just kinda how it goes here. I saw that tide set, but what was there to say about it? Some of the hardest things to comment on are those that are "middling" - the ones that don't blow your mind but at the same time arent terrible. And even if i knew that the tide set didn't look spectacular to me, who would i have been as an artist to suggest that something like maybe the whole style didn't suit my taste?
I wouldn't be surprised if others feel the same way. My original sets never got any attention or comments either. In fact the majority of the support or critique i've gotten is as a result of my participation in the community through the hangouts and competitions, rather than the strength of my work (though my work has gotten better through participating). And sometimes you don't really need comments to benefit from being here - just looking through what people are working on, seeing how they do things can be a huge benefit in itself.
Anyway back to the theme discussion, the misc slot one is a really cool idea. Whilst I'm not likely to participate this month, the misc slot sounds as interesting to me as the last 2 months.
I don't think having real world strong cultural influences would be that good. Sure, there are lots of items with references a touches from a lot of mythologies, races and cultures, but I think that it narrows down too much the heroes which would fit on said categories if we choose it as a theme.
I'd personally vote for single items with themes like purple, red, blue or green heroes, two-legged heroes or heroes with over two legs, humanoids, swords only, staffs only, helmets only, hairs only, etc.
I guess you and me started around the same time eh! With that said, and I am not attacking you here, I feel you got a bit too emotional about not getting a response. I tell you man, I asked for feedback so many times I fail to count. I don't get feedback at all, which is fine. You know why? Because it only means, to me, that I need to up my work further. It might or might not be the intention of the other PC members, but it is a good way to think about it. Though, whenever I do get a comment, it was from mixed type of people; pros and beginners. I listen to all.
On the flip side, I do feel a lot of pros are protective, but then, I don't see why they shouldn't be. I imagine they get bothered by beginners quite often, or that they feel the time they spent getting to their situation others have to do the same or whatever the reason is, the fact remains, it is their choice!
I agree with Neox on the amount of learning material available, it is staggering! A one hour video will take you weeks to even get something good learned from it. For me, I have pages pinned, pages bookmarked, videos, following streams, artists added on steam for quick questions, bought hardcopy books (yes they are quite useful!) and experiment!
I went from flatout ZERO in May 2013 to having almost 9 items in the workshop by end of October 2013. All are atleast 4 stars! (it matters to me, tiny little
P.S. Tvi, stop working on that PA set and come decide the theme of Nov!
I was thinking winter/ice heroes would be cool, but there's only 5 of them in game right now and only 4 of those are available for items. I like the idea of doing misc slots or any slot that isn't weapon/offhand/head. It'd be cool to have crates branch out to more interesting items than just weapons and helmets for 95% of the items in them.
The only thing for the skilled folks is working with a group, meeting new people, exploring different aspects of making game assests (Model, Textureing, Sculpting, Animating) . Say a skilled person somebody was good at modelling but not texturing, for this competition he goes to texturing. By the way these competitions aren't really about winning or submitting items to dota 2 workshop and getting it accepted (you can do that by yourself), its really about learning and honing skills. That's why we put WIP so people can comment and make suggestions, see mistakes that the designer couldn't.
Learning from reading or videos isn't really the same as learning from a person. In the process of making the items, the group would have immediate criticism.
I wasn't implying that the beginners just give concepts and the skilled does the rest. I only meant that beginners do work with more experienced people so when the person submits his work to the team he will get a skilled person's perspective.
Making mistakes doesn't make you better, you need to know your mistakes and learn from them to get better. You need criticism, someone to tell them their mistakes. If you look back at your art you made and loved years ago and see it now, you would probably notice mistakes. People won't be able to correct their mistakes if they are bias to their work.
I did say at the end of my post that this probably wouldn't happen because its complicated and skilled people have the less to gain.
Example. A skilled modeler does texturing, A skilled person who does texturing does modelling, they both work together and tell each other how to do things. And in the end, they both learn knew things in areas they weren't as strong.
-For the people who are able to do all aspects of game art, then they should choose their weakest skill.
Sorry for bringing this topic back up but since I made the post, I felt like I should explain a bit more since people didn't really grasp the concept of trying new areas.
----
About the winter items, do you guys think that Valve will allow winter theme items for frostvious, if so, then we can make that the competition.
hehe
i understand your idea, but i don't think it will work too great, tho i don't mind a mandatory team. But I fear some might not be able to find a partner and therefore will feel left out. As godzy with his post nobody replied on, stuff like that happens.
True but mentoring takes time and dedication and still, as said before back when i started learning this stuff the internet was way smaller with way less opportunities to learn and still people became better in time.
Before the internet people often had to learn on their own or even pay their mentors and work for them for almost nothing for years to come to pay their debt.
You can learn a lot from others, even by just looking at their work and putting thought into how they approached stuff. If the approach isn't the same, so be it, you still learned something.
Nothing of the stuff you learned for free on the internet is granted, and yet people call for more, down to a personal training. If someone wants to do that on his own, or someone manages such an opportunity (see summer bootcamp by Jacque Choi) this is great and people should be thankful, but making it mandatory will only scare away a lot of people.
To me this contest is not about winning, or learning, to me it gives an opportunity to team up with people and work within a given theme in a given timeframe. Deadlines are great to get things done.
@godzy: don't only look at the dota forum of polycount the technical talk forum is filled with informations, the wiki is as well. Anything you learn will make you a better artist in general not just for dota.
There are a few bugs in the idea and I hoped the community would decide for it, I mentioned a possibility on my first post.
Again, looking at other's work isn't the same as learning from someone. For example, Prior gave out some baking methods on his thread, people wouldn't know how to do that unless they took the time experimenting (which they would already need significant knowledge of) or talking to him personally.
Collaborating with someone would enable people to learn other methods and workflows that ease the learning process. People know things that other do not (I did not know about Jacque Choi thanks for that).
I didn't say looking at other peoples work is the same as learning from someone, but it is also not like you can't learn anything from it. There is free information all around you, use it.
Since this is going off topic, this will be my last post about this topic.
Since Snowstorm already posted a tut on how to sculpt hair this seems like a cool way for some to experiment. And i'm not just talking about hair here, anything containing fur from just a sword with some fur on it's handle to couriers. Pros can be pros and beginners can practice.
actually, i like that
+1
Besides if I was to work together with a professional I would feel pretty uncomfortable. The whole thing would feel a little parasitic. You know... The guy in the team that doesn't pull his weight. I do not want to be in that position.
The hair/fur idea sounds nice! I call dibs on making Axe a fuzzy patch of chest hair
My bad guys, i was really busy these days and got a little delayed. Someone suggested about another mod, i will check with Adam if that is possible. When the guys made the thead to ask for a mod, the second guy on the votes was Bronto Thunder, he could help a lot here too
about the new competition, i think we could go for the more focused ones, that was the idea when we started the competition months ago, i love the idea of misc items and the not crowded itens
one of the idea of the championship is to get you guys working potentially on the same project, like if you are new on the workshop and you want to make a set for kunkka, if you see someone working on one and follow his progress that will help a lot with some possible problems.
one example i had, i never saw someone working on an antimage set, and i designed a big dragon mask with long hair and a lot of other fancy things. when i got to the lowpoly stage the 250 triangles killed all my idea...
my 2 cents about the idea of the colab from before. I think its much better to
follow streams and take your doubts to there, so you can ask about the stream work or maybe send a picture of yours. its really quick when you are doing a stream and already warmed for the work to give feedback on something.
back to the theme, can we narrow to the more focused ones? i saw people liking the idea on the posts
- Misc slot
- Not crowded heroslot, like: arms back or neck
not crowded could be like "anything else besides armor and head slot"
what you guys think?
its done man, and i slept 7 hours this night, ON A BED!!! no more couch for me.
my head still hurts from the amount of work from last week, its time to throw away the moster cans that are decorating my table
Yep this is how I would feel tbh.
Guys just a quick reminder, the Google Hangouts are almost always open and there is generally at least 1 or 2 people in there who are willing to share their ideas. I honestly can't recommend it enough, there has been plenty of times when I've been stuck and guys on the Hangouts have saved me.
Nooooooooooooo.... This month was supposed to be my break month!! /despair
It's a good idea though :P
woooooo, can't wait to see it in the workshop!
(but offhand like warlock lantern or unfamous things like that should be allowed so)