Dominance War VI

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  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 6
    I just gave more thoughts into cinematic clips; since it seems it's an important part to you, Fred.

    I don't think this is practical at all; but I think the cinematic would make sense only after the DW competition is finished; and winners are decided/announced. Maybe top 20-30 entries get a quick cameo appearance in the cinematic; before getting killed/slaughtered by the 'Champions/Winners. And maybe the top 3 get a chance to nuke it out a bit. But this means you need...

    * complete final mesh, textures, and all files from each top entries.   // Your reputation is at stake for this part.
    * Awesome team of riggers and animators working their asses off to deliver the cinematic while people are still excited about the ended DW. (hello 80hrs a week)
    * The quality needs to be superb.
    * And you gotta pay them, how ??

    All in all; I don't see a way to pull this off.

    So; I too think cinematic gotta go.
  • adam
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    adam polycounter lvl 13
    FredH said:

    I was under the impression that a splash page with dollar signs posted 5 years ago was a suggestion that I was doing things solely for profit.

    An image from 5 years ago. I would apologize but I don't remember the image. Like I said, I forgot about this BS the moment we detached. But I do know the reasons why I didn't - and do not ever - want to work with you. Which I've shared here a few times, now and being greedy isn't it (not speaking on behalf of others here, either). And its like every reply you post in this thread is just affirmation that the right decision was made.
  • garcellano
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    garcellano polycounter lvl 3
    Shame about all the politics to Dominance-War & Unearthly Challenge competitions as I love the final outcomes and would love to see these back up and running.

     
    Yeah, would be cool to see. UCIII was probably the last one I remember checking out years back, other than the CC last year. 
  • FredH
    StephenVyas -
    "As much as I love animation... This is like stretching a piece of Super Sculpey in so many directions... sooner or later you'll see holes in the quality of content. This type of promotion can have the opposite effect of gaining attention. I'd pass on the event if this is all I saw about it."

    Yes, the video needed a lot more love and yes, it hurt the rep of the comp. It was a rushed job. Will certainly not put a cinematic like this one again in a major challenge. The reason it was shown here is because the idea behind taking the massive amount of time to actually make something like this clip for a challenge, suggests that I have been aiming for what I have been saying all along - creating a better experience for artists. There a million ways in which I can cut down features and simply simplify challenges to the point where they are just a single page of text, with a single header image, and then call it a day with a pat on my own back for a job well done. But this is not something that I am aiming for. My job is to find a way to create and also to sustain that which I aim for - Challenges with big prizes, 20 something champions, rock solid launch dates, cinematic shorts, a global art jam, etc. It's a tough puzzle to solve and thus far, after 10 years, I have failed... repeatedly.

    JacqueChoi
    "You want to be an Art Gallery Running, Workshop/Instructor, Web Media/Business Owning, Film Maker, who also runs these mega-contests? And you're wondering why people are doubting you?"

    I looked into grants before. I didn't like the fact that you essentially had to spend an enormous amount of time discussing the plans, attending meetings, making pitches, etc. Plus, you know personally that I suck at talking and am verbally handicapped. I'd rather spend the time learning something. However, now that I am getting older and have less energy, in the end, this might be the way to go. As for doubt, yes, I can understand when you say it like that. My plans are rather big and involve a lot of elements in order to reach a certain goal. I know people are getting really annoyed to hear this, but cinematic shorts is where it's at! But the conditions in order to make these, it requires a creative and outside the box touch.


  • Eric Chadwick
    Why are cinematic shorts important to you?
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 11
    FredH said:
     I know people are getting really annoyed to hear this, but cinematic shorts is where it's at! But the conditions in order to make these, it requires a creative and outside the box touch.
    well, it is ironic for you to be calling polycount a troll community when you are the one who is being a bit annoying with your persistent grand ideas (for which you ask for money) and add that with your history of money/prize misappropriation. it gives off the scam vibe again and again.
  • StephenVyas
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    StephenVyas polycounter lvl 12
    FredH said:

     There a million ways in which I can cut down features and simply simplify challenges to the point where they are just a single page of text, with a single header image, and then call it a day with a pat on my own back for a job well done. But this is not something that I am aiming for. My job is to find a way to create and also to sustain that which I aim for - Challenges with big prizes, 20 something champions, rock solid launch dates, cinematic shorts, a global art jam, etc. It's a tough puzzle to solve and thus far, after 10 years, I have failed... repeatedly.




    Wouldn't it be nice to have a Win, after 10 years?

    Take something small, and add to it each time a new competition wraps up. If that newly added piece is receiving negative attention . Remove it. Try another idea.-If that idea works, great! Keep it for the next comp. Build upon successful ideas. 
    Before you know it, that huge idea you originally had has now morphed from a puzzle to something that actually works.
  • Polyjunky
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    Polyjunky polycounter lvl 8
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.  - Albert Einstein
  • FredH
    STRIKER
    "Fred listen to what the people are saying, no one cares about cinematics and shit. Honestly i was excited to hear about the KS about what i thought was for DW/Comicon ect because i do understand that maintaining something like this is fkn hard. But when i saw that you wanted to fund another studio for anything to happen, i was pissed. Felt like you were holding these challenges hostage. Most of the ideas you listed that you wanted is the opposite of what the community wants."

    Cinematic shorts are definitely out at this point. So is a studio. I'd rather not cause any additional waves for another long while. I will simply spend my time solidifying that which is already there and making things better. I have already begun the process. As for UC and DW, they will be held, but with no prizes or sponsors... unless some miracle happens to alter this path.

    Segreto
    "Even if a proper cinematic was made for the next DomWar or whatever and it was balls to the walls awesome, it still wouldn't be worth it, nor would it be viewed very well. You are venturing into morally gray territory with them. Cinematics are nothing but a marketing gimmick to get people to buy games. You aren't selling anything, nor are you making money off the comps... so why do it? Why add another money-pit into the equation, when you're already having trouble funding the comps to begin with? Why continually regurgitate other peoples artwork in your own endeavors? Specifically speaking of the domwar V video, I wouldn't be too pleased to see my artwork plastered up in some crappy video, knowing its serving absolutely no purpose whatsoever. The animation is a bit of a disservice to the fine work that was made in those competitions, whether those artists 'agreed' to it or not."

    The artists did give us the models to use for the clip, but yes, they were not used well I am afraid. Otherwise, it's a mute point. I am certainly not able to create cinematic shorts right now or in the near future, unless I find a way through some other means that is 100% transparent and zero grey area.

  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 6
    It would have to be something real-time online collaboration things. The original artists upload the models themselves, while animators work on them remotely or something.... Nope. Don't do it. Maybe in 5 yrs we will have the capacity to do so.
  • StephenVyas
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    StephenVyas polycounter lvl 12
    PyrZern said:
    It would have to be something real-time online collaboration things. The original artists upload the models themselves, while animators work on them remotely or something.... Nope. Don't do it. Maybe in 5 yrs we will have the capacity to do so.
    Well...You've basically described Artella.
    It's a new venture from the same guy(s) who started Animation Mentor.
    https://www.artella.com/#/home

    It does away with needing to be in a Studio to effectively collaborate on a project.
  • Jonas Ronnegard
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    Jonas Ronnegard Polycount Sponsor
    Glad to hear that you have distanced yourself from the cinematic idea、but in the future if you ever do start something, skip the cg and go with animated pictures, will be easier and look a lot more professional if done right, cinematics really need to be 100% perfect to not look shit.
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 6
    PyrZern said:
    It would have to be something real-time online collaboration things. The original artists upload the models themselves, while animators work on them remotely or something.... Nope. Don't do it. Maybe in 5 yrs we will have the capacity to do so.
    Well...You've basically described Artella.
    It's a new venture from the same guy(s) who started Animation Mentor.
    https://www.artella.com/#/home

    It does away with needing to be in a Studio to effectively collaborate on a project.
    Yes; I forgot the name of it; but I have heard of it. Dunno how well it work out, though.
  • FredH
    PyrZern said:
    I just gave more thoughts into cinematic clips; since it seems it's an important part to you, Fred.

    I don't think this is practical at all; but I think the cinematic would make sense only after the DW competition is finished; and winners are decided/announced. Maybe top 20-30 entries get a quick cameo appearance in the cinematic; before getting killed/slaughtered by the 'Champions/Winners. And maybe the top 3 get a chance to nuke it out a bit. But this means you need...

    * complete final mesh, textures, and all files from each top entries.   // Your reputation is at stake for this part.
    * Awesome team of riggers and animators working their asses off to deliver the cinematic while people are still excited about the ended DW. (hello 80hrs a week)
    * The quality needs to be superb.
    * And you gotta pay them, how ??

    All in all; I don't see a way to pull this off.

    So; I too think cinematic gotta go.
    For example, let's say DWIV finished last year and now DWV is coming up. The new DWV 30 sec teaser would show the end of DWIV's character stories and suggest/hint at an upcoming DWV. Then to make the DWV clip, it would be made with created-from-scratch characters. How would everything be put together? The cinematic would be put together with the help of V2's 11 in-house pro artists, who are all profit sharing a Patreon account together. So in essence, they are being paid. Then, we'd also bring in student artists and other volunteer pros from Montreal's surrounding studios to back-up the 11 pros with additional help... all done for the purpose of making something cool. The reason why the original DWV trailer failed to deliver a high standard was because there was no professional core team to help guide the process. It was just a small team of volunteers. The lesson was learned and now a new plan was made to correct this. This time, there will be 3 layers of teams who would work on it and not a cent would have to be spent.
    MM said:
    well, it is ironic for you to be calling polycount a troll community when you are the one who is being a bit annoying with your persistent grand ideas (for which you ask for money) and add that with your history of money/prize misappropriation. it gives off the scam vibe again and again.

    Yeah. I did the mistake of calling Polycount's members trolls in my frustration with all that has happened. I looked like a fool with such a childish public comment. If it helps, know that I am positive that what little respect people had for me, was lost with my comment. Justice served.
    Why are cinematic shorts important to you?
    To be able to see a character that is created for a challenge, be it 2d or 3d, in motion, it offers that final missing element where entries are no longer simply numbered entries in an art challenge with hundreds of entries. They are now part of lasting story-line and of a universe that has meaning. When I asked artists to pass me their models for the DW V trailer, artists handed them over with excitement. There was absolutely no hesitation. They were extremely happy for the potential to see their characters in motion and to be featured as the stars in a Dominance War universe. Unfortunately, we failed to deliver. But what if we succeeded? It takes an artist 9-something weeks, in a labor of love, to create a winning model for a challenge. I can think of no bigger bragging rights then if that model is then starred as a main character in a cinematic short of the same quality as Blizzard Entertainment. Videos receive a lot more views/hits then any challenge or single piece of artwork could ever hope to imagine. So what if it was a cinematic trailer that featured your character as the star.... and it has now been seen by Millions? Despite what everyone says here, I think cinematic shorts is something worth striving for. Yes, it's an almost impossible goal.... but it deserves an attempt or two at the very least.

    “I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.”
    ― Thomas A. Edison

    “Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up.”
    ― Thomas A. Edison

    I will keep trying.

     


  • FredH
    Juju said:
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.  - Albert Einstein
    It's a good thing I try to do things in a completely new fashion each and every time. =)
  • FredH
    Glad to hear that you have distanced yourself from the cinematic idea、but in the future if you ever do start something, skip the cg and go with animated pictures, will be easier and look a lot more professional if done right, cinematics really need to be 100% perfect to not look shit.
    Yes, I totally agree. 2D would certainly be the way to go, with perhaps just a hint of 3d where possible.
  • Daew
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    Daew polycounter lvl 4
    Just curious but how much do you think you would be paying the 11 pro artists, is it a full time gig or a part time gig? And what would make it more appealing to work on the v2 team than another project . Funding the salary for 11 "pro" artists is a lot of money.  

    Also what is your experience making cinematics? A team of 11 people aiming for the quality of  a blizzard cinematic seems ambitious. (also take note the contest is about making a game character not a film one its not really as simple as plugging it into a renderer.) 
  • Saf
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    Saf polycounter lvl 5
    It is best just to order in a professional studio short animation, website, etc. If you want quality. And "Canada Arts Council" money is not such a bad idea in my opinion.
  • Joao Sapiro
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    Joao Sapiro interpolator
    dude , if you want to make a contest , just make a grounded one , stop all this bullshit , i mean i have grown as an artist with cgchat, polycount etc , and things were simple back then, just...stop man. wow
  • Francois_K
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    Francois_K polycounter lvl 4
    When people look for dominance war now , they'll probably look it up online and possibly stumble upon this thread.
    The only thing you really have going for yourself in terms of being unique is the nostalgia factor of the previous Dominance Wars
    You're planning way too many things , your kickstarter failed, then you try it again , now you want to do a patreon ...to do a online art challenge?

    I'd much rather stick with polycount challenges or artstation as there's way more credibility behind there.

    When I was starting out in 3D , Dominance War was my go to for inspiration and seeing how awesome people are , when this got announcted I was at first excited but people said what happened in the past and now it's sort of a confirmation how shady and overall just plain confusing this all really is , for an online challenge ... and that made me a bit sad.
  • JedTheKrampus
  • Jason Young
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    Jason Young polycounter lvl 8
    This all seems terribly misguided.  It feels like when you meet a person interested in making games, and they explain how they're going to make an mmo.  You explain how unrealistic that is, but they move forward anyway, waste a bunch of time, rinse repeat.  4 years later they have nothing to show for it.   

    I have fond memories of several GA comps.  Never finished a DW, but always looked forward to it as well as Comicon and the others.  I appreciate the amount of work that goes into these things.

    With that said, as someone who long ago abandoned the site, I do wish you'd focus all your energy on just streamlining the past competition in terms of starting dates, deadlines, voting times, etc as well as coming up with cool briefs.  Ultimately the contest theme is what's going to get people excited, and I really don't feel like this cinematic meta narrative matters much. 

  • STRIKER
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    STRIKER polycounter lvl 8
    This all seems terribly misguided.  It feels like when you meet a person interested in making games, and they explain how they're going to make an mmo.  You explain how unrealistic that is, but they move forward anyway, waste a bunch of time, rinse repeat.  4 years later they have nothing to show for it.   

    I have fond memories of several GA comps.  Never finished a DW, but always looked forward to it as well as Comicon and the others.  I appreciate the amount of work that goes into these things.

    With that said, as someone who long ago abandoned the site, I do wish you'd focus all your energy on just streamlining the past competition in terms of starting dates, deadlines, voting times, etc as well as coming up with cool briefs.  Ultimately the contest theme is what's going to get people excited, and I really don't feel like this cinematic meta narrative matters much. 

    ^ right here. do this. hell with all the other nonsense 
  • Darknavigator
    nufftalon said:
    Man! I crunch for one month and you guys kill GA... Heh!  It hit list continues.  First it was CGhub now GA... CG society should be sweating right now.  Raise the jolly roger!

    ...Wait did I have a bunch on non-backed up art on GA... Damn!  
    Bro its talonhawk I feel your pain, I put work into my Comicon 2016 and now the whole thread is gone,  I'm upset and think its a bad move. That is messed up, but I will still finish it and post it, because its coming out great. As for Fred, I don't know him personally but DW back in 2012 was the first online contest I entered and really pushed me as an artist, I received a ton of feed back and encouragement, sad to see the place go.  I personally was upset he still didn't fix the site before the new challenge was up, I have offered to help him develop a better site told him, its too busy I even made a paint over layout of how things should look but to no avail he didn't take my advice, the entry had missing broken images and looked unprofessional.

    To run a website successfully all you need is:
    The Forum
    Passion
    Sponsors
    Advertisements via click bank, google adsense, amazon affiliates, etc

    All the other stuff is not needed and is more a luxury but seriously have a contest make it the forefront of your website show active thread thumbnails like ZBSEE has for example or polycount newsfeed and you are good. No one needs hand written html pages, graphics, video intros, it isn't necessary. It's a website for artist to show their work not for you to create big graphics that delay an event for months because it has to be just right. If you have the funds, the time, and dedication then more power to you. By pulling the plug you basically proved what everyone has been saying, and I have lost respect for you.


    Dude! Whats Up Talon! I have been in crunch but I am about to dig into Comicon.  Glad to see GA back. I look forward to chatting with you on that site also. 

    Let me say this on the subject though.  I love taking part in these competitions, even when I can't finish them due to my work schedule. I enjoy seeing the community enthused and energized by working together. It brings us all up.  Thanks Fred.  I appreciate, truly appreciate the effort that you have put forward. I in fact have no problem kicking in entry fees, or kick starting these competitions.  I think that it is only fair.  

    Like many I feel like the app thing that happened post the last DW was hard to deal with as it did feel like it was slipped in and I know that we are all tired of the endless control of our art wars (NDAs, Non competes, Company rights laws) and this felt too much like this stuff (legalese slipped in where none was needed and felt like it was done in a way that tried to avoid notice).  That being said I do not think this was malicious, I don't think that it was meant to take away anyone's rights to their own art.  It was a way to legally showcase the art allowing Fred to recoup some of the costs of the competition and was being worked toward before there were any results issues and prize pullouts.  What may have been a small issue became much larger due to the fact that the community was already riled up.  BTW I would have totally bought that app.

    I, for one, think that we should give Fred the benefit of the doubt. He is an artist that wants to create and support art trying to manage the business aspects of this... of course there will be issues and I probably would have made many of the same mistakes.  We as a community tend to rush to our pitchforks, but if I ask myself these simple questions I come up with the following answers.

    1. Do I think what he is doing is try to be malicious, vindictive or negatively exploitative?  I don't. 
    2. Assuming he is trying to use these kick-starters as a launching point to build the business aspects of his/GA's studio do I care? Or rather prefer that this company exists?  I would actually like his vision of a studio to happen, I would also like a voice in its direction if my work is used. This level of involvement/transparency may take the stigma off of this idea. 

    My question becomes this: 
    Can we wipe this slate clean and give Fred the benefit of the doubt, if not what assurances would the community want before they would happily contribute in Fred's vision?


     
  • slosh
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    slosh interpolator
    nufftalon said:
    Man! I crunch for one month and you guys kill GA... Heh!  It hit list continues.  First it was CGhub now GA... CG society should be sweating right now.  Raise the jolly roger!

    ...Wait did I have a bunch on non-backed up art on GA... Damn!  
    Bro its talonhawk I feel your pain, I put work into my Comicon 2016 and now the whole thread is gone,  I'm upset and think its a bad move. That is messed up, but I will still finish it and post it, because its coming out great. As for Fred, I don't know him personally but DW back in 2012 was the first online contest I entered and really pushed me as an artist, I received a ton of feed back and encouragement, sad to see the place go.  I personally was upset he still didn't fix the site before the new challenge was up, I have offered to help him develop a better site told him, its too busy I even made a paint over layout of how things should look but to no avail he didn't take my advice, the entry had missing broken images and looked unprofessional.

    To run a website successfully all you need is:
    The Forum
    Passion
    Sponsors
    Advertisements via click bank, google adsense, amazon affiliates, etc

    All the other stuff is not needed and is more a luxury but seriously have a contest make it the forefront of your website show active thread thumbnails like ZBSEE has for example or polycount newsfeed and you are good. No one needs hand written html pages, graphics, video intros, it isn't necessary. It's a website for artist to show their work not for you to create big graphics that delay an event for months because it has to be just right. If you have the funds, the time, and dedication then more power to you. By pulling the plug you basically proved what everyone has been saying, and I have lost respect for you.


    Dude! Whats Up Talon! I have been in crunch but I am about to dig into Comicon.  Glad to see GA back. I look forward to chatting with you on that site also. 

    Let me say this on the subject though.  I love taking part in these competitions, even when I can't finish them due to my work schedule. I enjoy seeing the community enthused and energized by working together. It brings us all up.  Thanks Fred.  I appreciate, truly appreciate the effort that you have put forward. I in fact have no problem kicking in entry fees, or kick starting these competitions.  I think that it is only fair.  

    Like many I feel like the app thing that happened post the last DW was hard to deal with as it did feel like it was slipped in and I know that we are all tired of the endless control of our art wars (NDAs, Non competes, Company rights laws) and this felt too much like this stuff (legalese slipped in where none was needed and felt like it was done in a way that tried to avoid notice).  That being said I do not think this was malicious, I don't think that it was meant to take away anyone's rights to their own art.  It was a way to legally showcase the art allowing Fred to recoup some of the costs of the competition and was being worked toward before there were any results issues and prize pullouts.  What may have been a small issue became much larger due to the fact that the community was already riled up.  BTW I would have totally bought that app.

    I, for one, think that we should give Fred the benefit of the doubt. He is an artist that wants to create and support art trying to manage the business aspects of this... of course there will be issues and I probably would have made many of the same mistakes.  We as a community tend to rush to our pitchforks, but if I ask myself these simple questions I come up with the following answers.

    1. Do I think what he is doing is try to be malicious, vindictive or negatively exploitative?  I don't. 
    2. Assuming he is trying to use these kick-starters as a launching point to build the business aspects of his/GA's studio do I care? Or rather prefer that this company exists?  I would actually like his vision of a studio to happen, I would also like a voice in its direction if my work is used. This level of involvement/transparency may take the stigma off of this idea. 

    My question becomes this: 
    Can we wipe this slate clean and give Fred the benefit of the doubt, if not what assurances would the community want before they would happily contribute in Fred's vision?


     
    Sadly, I think we are WAY past that.  I don't think he will get much support at all at this point.  There's just too much animosity.  Really, he should just hand the reigns off and let other sites do contests.  If he does continue, he should do what others have mentioned...no frills, no prizes, just straight-forward comps with a brief, a start date, a finish date, possibly judges of which he is not one, and that's it.  Even still, most veterans will not join his comps any more...bridges have been burned.
  • Autocon
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    Autocon polycounter lvl 9
    If you do these challenges such as Dominance War, Unearthly and Comic Con with no prizes I'm sure you will be surprised at how big the competitions still are.

    People who do these challenges are not doing it for prizes, at least the people who actually finish these challenges are not doing it for the prizes. Growing as an artist, competing against friends, rivals, yourself on the same guidelines for the bragging rights of who is better is really why people do these challenges. The people who win these challenges already have the prizes you are offering to the winners anyway.

    People love making art. They like competing against people. They like having an even playing field where everyone is doing something slightly similar to show off whos creativity and talent is really the best. People like having reasons and a deadline to do a project that comes from a competition that you cant really get from a self imposed deadline.



    If you REALLY do love these challenges and don't care about anything but that then do just 1 of these big challenges such as Dom War, Unearthly or Comic Con without prizes. Without the lure of winning any material reward, without the grey area of the art made for the competition can be used to fund any other project beyond promoting that same challenge the next year I know you will still have a big turn out with some amazing entries and winners.

    Just try it and see what happens, its a far cheaper option than anything you have tried so far and it comes with a lot less hesitation towards it due to any kind of money shenanigans which will always turn a large group of people off no matter how much you preach you are just doing it for the love of it.
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 6
    I mean, there's no big enough prize money worth the time. Anyone who wins these challenges gonna have all the tools and software needed already. Unless it's cash. But then again, for a 2 months period, that's gotta be a nice big sum of money; especially since you might not win at all. 

    Might as well just do it for fun and for growth, and for exposure :awesome:
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 11
    just forget the "Team V2" idea completely. it just feels like you are trying to setup your own business and you are somehow using artworks from thousands of artists from all over the world that you got for free as your marketing material to get the funding for your business. it obviously feels like exploitation.

    nothing wrong with starting your own business, just take the straight path like legit people do. get a business loan, pay all your artists and marketing staff, etc.
  • Shadownami92
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    Shadownami92 polycounter lvl 5
    I feel like you could commission 1 or 2 pieces of art for a DW and just mix that with some animated text to make an appealing enough intro trailer for the competition. After receiving the artwork which should be pretty affordable you could probably turnaround and complete the trailer in a day or 2 with just one person working on it. Then just rework that document's template with new text and new art for the next one and it would be even faster.

    Before any grand ideas have money put forward for them though it would be better to do some house keeping. GA's layout is incredibly hard to navigate and I don't think I've seen anything to suggest a streamlining of the competition infrastructure either from a management or technical standpoint. I feel like it would make more sense to work on that.

    Ludum Dare is a gamejam and it's site has been getting improved over time with their entry and voting systems being extremely streamlined and consistent and until recently it was run without any financial support and when it grew to a size that it needed it, the guy running it just did a Patreon to support it. These are use gamejams that have no prizes but work extremely well. And not only does the entry system work, it's surprisingly stable for running on Wordpress. Also, Polycount has run competitions just through the forum's post systems pretty much as it's also gone extremely smooth.

    For GA to host large competitions, it would be wise to try to create a competition system that is easy to use, isn't expensive to run and is time tested to work flawlessly. I'm going to be honest, I loved joining DW even if I never finished, but I remember there always being large deadline extensions and other problems. I don't think you can just talk your way into having people who were burned in the past trust you. It's going to take showing that you can handle smaller competitions well for a while before I think people can believe that you can handle anything the scope of DW or UC again.

    As for the team aspect, couldn't you just use some sort of tag system? People could make their own tags and see commonly used tags in a dropdown or something.
  • FredH
    Daew said:
    Just curious but how much do you think you would be paying the 11 pro artists, is it a full time gig or a part time gig? And what would make it more appealing to work on the v2 team than another project . Funding the salary for 11 "pro" artists is a lot of money.  

    Also what is your experience making cinematics? A team of 11 people aiming for the quality of  a blizzard cinematic seems ambitious. (also take note the contest is about making a game character not a film one its not really as simple as plugging it into a renderer.) 
    It's a mute point right now. Kickstarter failed. Right now, I will concentrate on GA because I have been gone for an entire year. Plus, I need to rush things if I am to get things ready for UC.

    Saf said:
    It is best just to order in a professional studio short animation, website, etc. If you want quality. And "Canada Arts Council" money is not such a bad idea in my opinion.

    I checked out a link provided by the above artist.
    https://www.artella.com/#/home
    Looks like a good addition to any team I manage to pull together in the distant future. But I will look into this more in the future. Not right now.

    dude , if you want to make a contest , just make a grounded one , stop all this bullshit , i mean i have grown as an artist with cgchat, polycount etc , and things were simple back then, just...stop man. wow

    ?? There are plenty of one page challenges out there if this is what you fancy. There is no need for me to provide you with the same. I aspire for more. If you think it's bullshit, you are entitled to your opinion.

    When people look for dominance war now , they'll probably look it up online and possibly stumble upon this thread.
    The only thing you really have going for yourself in terms of being unique is the nostalgia factor of the previous Dominance Wars
    You're planning way too many things , your kickstarter failed, then you try it again , now you want to do a patreon ...to do a online art challenge?

    I'd much rather stick with polycount challenges or artstation as there's way more credibility behind there.

    When I was starting out in 3D , Dominance War was my go to for inspiration and seeing how awesome people are , when this got announcted I was at first excited but people said what happened in the past and now it's sort of a confirmation how shady and overall just plain confusing this all really is , for an online challenge ... and that made me a bit sad.

    Yes, agreed. At this point in time, it looks and feels like that. And yes, GA is running on history right now.

    With that said, as someone who long ago abandoned the site, I do wish you'd focus all your energy on just streamlining the past competition in terms of starting dates, deadlines, voting times, etc as well as coming up with cool briefs.  Ultimately the contest theme is what's going to get people excited, and I really don't feel like this cinematic meta narrative matters much. 

    Yes, that is what will be focused on now.


  • FredH

    Dude! Whats Up Talon! I have been in crunch but I am about to dig into Comicon.  Glad to see GA back. I look forward to chatting with you on that site also.

    Let me say this on the subject though.  I love taking part in these competitions, even when I can't finish them due to my work schedule. I enjoy seeing the community enthused and energized by working together. It brings us all up.  Thanks Fred.  I appreciate, truly appreciate the effort that you have put forward. I in fact have no problem kicking in entry fees, or kick starting these competitions.  I think that it is only fair.  

    Like many I feel like the app thing that happened post the last DW was hard to deal with as it did feel like it was slipped in and I know that we are all tired of the endless control of our art wars (NDAs, Non competes, Company rights laws) and this felt too much like this stuff (legalese slipped in where none was needed and felt like it was done in a way that tried to avoid notice).  That being said I do not think this was malicious, I don't think that it was meant to take away anyone's rights to their own art.  It was a way to legally showcase the art allowing Fred to recoup some of the costs of the competition and was being worked toward before there were any results issues and prize pullouts.  What may have been a small issue became much larger due to the fact that the community was already riled up.  BTW I would have totally bought that app.

    I, for one, think that we should give Fred the benefit of the doubt. He is an artist that wants to create and support art trying to manage the business aspects of this... of course there will be issues and I probably would have made many of the same mistakes.  We as a community tend to rush to our pitchforks, but if I ask myself these simple questions I come up with the following answers.

    1. Do I think what he is doing is try to be malicious, vindictive or negatively exploitative?  I don't. 
    2. Assuming he is trying to use these kick-starters as a launching point to build the business aspects of his/GA's studio do I care? Or rather prefer that this company exists?  I would actually like his vision of a studio to happen, I would also like a voice in its direction if my work is used. This level of involvement/transparency may take the stigma off of this idea. 

    My question becomes this: 
    Can we wipe this slate clean and give Fred the benefit of the doubt, if not what assurances would the community want before they would happily contribute in Fred's vision?

    Thanks Darknavigator. Well, the problem I am facing now is, kickstarter failed after a 1 year investment. Fortunately, after last week's meltdown, I have immediately switched plans. For the first time in 10 years, I will remove myself completely from the maintenance side of GA and hire freelance dedicated help. Each person will run a single specific area of GA. For instance, artist highlights, portfolio highlights, interviews, etc - basically, they will keep the fire running on GA. With site-wide maintenance off my hands, I will concentrate solely on challenges and create the pages needed for the upcoming challenges, Unearthly Challenge and Dominance War. Both challenges will be devoid of prizes and sponsors. Will just focus on making cool page designs and a great topic.

    A virtual team has been trained this week and has already begun working on the site. Things will get done 10x faster now - however, the cost is barely manageable.

    To get UC and DW out sometime this century, and to keep the new dedicated assistance up, at this point, I really have no choice. I will need to run a Patreon page so that I can focus 100% of my energy on GA. With the addition of Patreon, even if it brings in just $50 or $200 a month, it will help immensely. Plus after reviewing the account that was shown to me in this thread, I really like the fact that YandereDev was able to find volunteers through Patreon. This is a great bonus. But to run a Patreon right now, after a failed Kickstarter, plus this thread here, there will be another backlash in rep with English speaking artists. Russians, Koreans, Chinese etc, they just want the challenges to come out already and don't care about this drama.

    Anyways, I just wanted to thank you for your kind words and to let you know of the situation and how things will unfold in the next month or so.
    :)



  • FredH

    Autocon said:
    If you do these challenges such as Dominance War, Unearthly and Comic Con with no prizes I'm sure you will be surprised at how big the competitions still are.

    People who do these challenges are not doing it for prizes, at least the people who actually finish these challenges are not doing it for the prizes. Growing as an artist, competing against friends, rivals, yourself on the same guidelines for the bragging rights of who is better is really why people do these challenges. The people who win these challenges already have the prizes you are offering to the winners anyway.

    People love making art. They like competing against people. They like having an even playing field where everyone is doing something slightly similar to show off whos creativity and talent is really the best. People like having reasons and a deadline to do a project that comes from a competition that you cant really get from a self imposed deadline.


    If you REALLY do love these challenges and don't care about anything but that then do just 1 of these big challenges such as Dom War, Unearthly or Comic Con without prizes. Without the lure of winning any material reward, without the grey area of the art made for the competition can be used to fund any other project beyond promoting that same challenge the next year I know you will still have a big turn out with some amazing entries and winners.

    Just try it and see what happens, its a far cheaper option than anything you have tried so far and it comes with a lot less hesitation towards it due to any kind of money shenanigans which will always turn a large group of people off no matter how much you preach you are just doing it for the love of it.

    Yes, I will certainly keep trying and yes, prizes are totally out. I remain optimistic that despite the worst blows the industry has seen thrown at one person.... I still finish each and every challenge I ever started. I am 100% committed to what I do. English artists will just have to decide for themselves if they want to sit on the side lines and watch a great challenge go by.




  • adam
    Offline / Send Message
    adam polycounter lvl 13
    FredH said:
    English artists will just have to decide for themselves if they want to sit on the side lines and watch a great challenge go by.
    You're opening the GA branded contests to any/all artists, regardless of their "community" association, then? That sounds like the best way to make contests accessible by anyone.
  • FredH
    adam said:
    You're opening the GA branded contests to any/all artists, regardless of their "community" association, then? That sounds like the best way to make contests accessible by anyone.
    That would be Planetary Challenge. This challenge is not community oriented and it is open to anyone. However, it's my hopes to encourage communities to help organize local events for their artists.

    For UC and DW, they will remain as is. If an artist enters for Team Art Station or conceptart.org, I am positive that both these sites will ask artists to remove their brand name and they will also personally email me to make sure I prevent this from happening ever again.

    In the past, I believe the problem was stability. If I can manage to get challenges 100% stable, announced 1 year in advance, and then launched precisely on schedule, then other forums, and even schools can sync their schedules and take full advantage of a GA challenge. Example, if Dominance War was said to launch on the 1st day of GDC, and everyone knew without a doubt that it would launch on time... then everyone, forums and artists, can organize talks for their personal teams, meet ups, discussions, brainstorming, etc at GDC. Each team can even build the hype for 1 year to gather artists for "their team" in an upcoming war. It will help bring artists together on each forum (not really needed for Polycount. After looking around here this week, I saw many threads titled "I love Polycount!" This place is special. I am really happy to see this. You guys already have everything nicely put together!). For other forums, I was happy to see that CGArt.ir took full advantage of GA challenges in the past. When a GA challenge was launched, such as Blizzardfest and UC, they made artist workshops for it in Tehran to bring their community together. A new Russian community is planning to do the same for the upcoming UC and DW.

    So it's my job to make challenges 100% stable. Now that I am looking into dedicated help for the first time in 10 years, I most likely will be able to pull it all off (minus prizes and cinematic shorts).

  • RaptorCWS
    Offline / Send Message
    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 5
    FredH said:
    adam said:
    You're opening the GA branded contests to any/all artists, regardless of their "community" association, then? That sounds like the best way to make contests accessible by anyone.
    For UC and DW, they will remain as is. If an artist enters for Team Art Station or conceptart.org, I am positive that both these sites will ask artists to remove their brand name and they will also personally email me to make sure I prevent this from happening ever again.


    Why don't you just ask the people at those sites if its cool if their artist use their logo in the work that they make for the comp and not require those sites to be directly involved if they do not want to be. I mean both of those sites are pretty much portfolio sites and their end results will end up their as well as GA. worst thing they can say is no. but they could end up attracting site views from other forum goers, and its not like your competitions are unheard of in the 3d community.


  • adam
    Offline / Send Message
    adam polycounter lvl 13
    FredH said:
    For UC and DW, they will remain as is. 
    Sigh.

  • linkov
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    linkov polycounter lvl 8
    Why are you so obsessed with community vs. community? At the end of the day its still people vs. people, you just adding one more artificial boundary, based mostly on the language participants speak. And its not helping to bring artists together. You don't need forum logos or anything like that, just allow people to make their WIP thread on the forum of their choosing, and for the final submission, ask to provide a link to that thread if its important so much. Done. Artists will be hanging out where they feel comfortable, no need to schedule anything with anyone, just announce it on GA, ask for final submission images and link to WIP thread and wait for the results.
  • sziada
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    sziada polycounter lvl 5
    I rather have a contest like artstation where you get an award from the community.  gives you a leg up when it comes to visa applications, which are torturous. 
  • C86G
    Offline / Send Message
    C86G polycounter lvl 5
    almighty_gir said:
    I don't think i've found any other community as helpful as polycount.

    PC was/is the only community I am active in. I started as a very unskilled 3D guy but did always get the help and information I needed to become a better artist. I enjoy having both beginners and pros in one place, always respecting each other. People here are always serious about art, but there´s also always room for some fun and jokes : )
    In the few cases I needed help from a mod --> I got it! And I love having developers from tools we all know and use (quixel, toolbag and all those important tools) in the community, too.

    Sry for not saying anything about the original DW-drama. Just wanted to say this community is great both for starters and pros.
  • SergioSantos
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    SergioSantos polycounter lvl 5
    So last time DW went to hell because rules changed in the middle of the contest
    and artist would lose copyright of their models,
    all the income from posters, books and the rest of the merchandise would go to organizers.

    Is it going to be the same this time?
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