Dominance War VI

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  • FredH
    Pyrzern, you mean I should post it anyways? Ok, I will :)

    And if anyone can help make the ideas better, this would be much appreciated.
  • pior
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    pior insane polycounter
    The troll like comments that come out of here, cat pic mockeries, harsh w.i.p comments that either makes or breaks student artists, and other forms of bs...

    I honestly never understood where this opinion of the community is coming from. After years of browsing this forum I have never seen a *single* thread ending up in this fantasized bashing of artists. If anything this forum always appeared to me as a very mature, no bullshit kind of place, and that's without a doubt thanks to the hard work of moderators. Even the OPs who post in a borderline trollish manner receive constructive criticism.

    Polycount was always the Evil team in both DW and UC and I was always darn proud to have this troll of a forum, as a team.

    It is almost as if the "roleplay" elements of early DWs have been taken as face value. Which is ironic in itself because as far as I remember it, never in the brief of the contests was there anything about a "good guys" forum vs a "bad guys" forum.

    I sometimes hear of people being intimidated to post here, which shows how far such rumors/preconceived ideas ended up spreading. The only difference I can see compared to other places is that there is less of a tendency for "OMG 5 stars toprow !!!!" comments, and that is definitely a good thing.
  • adam
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    adam polycounter lvl 14
    I am really interested in seeing what idea you have that is better than making it an open contest to all artist and let them choose which community they want to fight for. What if someone wanted to fight for r/Gaming? Or Facepunch? Or their niche art group on Facebook? An open call like that sounds way cooler to me than any one event that requires the official involvement of community steak holders and staff. Unless you're planning to sell/merchandise/sponsor/somehow license the branding of these communities, you shouldn't need the official nod of any of them to do something like this.

    If people want to sign up for some contest somewhere on the internet and proclaim, "I am fighting in this contest for Polycount/Reddit/niche Facebook group/Furries," there is really nothing anyone can do to stop them. I feel that if the intention is to get communities to have some fun rivalry together, that this idea is so good I should have sat on it and suggest that Polycount does it themselves. But instead I'm sharing it with you because, holy shit man, you need a good idea.

    And this is really the reason I am posting in this thread, to you, in the first place: You could have done these things completely devoid of drama, "trolls", and friction. But instead we're in the middle of a 7 layer shit dip to which "contests" is just one of those layers because you have (IMO) failed to understand what motivates an artist both as a creative and a user of your service(s).


  • skankerzero
    pior said:
    The troll like comments that come out of here, cat pic mockeries, harsh w.i.p comments that either makes or breaks student artists, and other forms of bs...

    I honestly never understood where this opinion of the community is coming from. After years of browsing this forum I have never seen a *single* thread ending up in this fantasized bashing of artists.
    The closest was when there would be the random, inflammatory thread that would get flooded with cat pics and gifs in an effort to suppress the thread and get it deleted or closed.
  • almighty_gir
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    almighty_gir sublime tool
    pior said:
    The troll like comments that come out of here, cat pic mockeries, harsh w.i.p comments that either makes or breaks student artists, and other forms of bs...

    I honestly never understood where this opinion of the community is coming from. After years of browsing this forum I have never seen a *single* thread ending up in this fantasized bashing of artists.
    The closest was when there would be the random, inflammatory thread that would get flooded with cat pics and gifs in an effort to suppress the thread and get it deleted or closed.
    That's my take on it too... In all my time here, i don't think i've ever seen people troll students to the point that they quit, sure the feedback is often harsh but so is life, and let's be real here the harshness of feedback has fallen quite dramatically since i first joined.

    Flooding threads with pics is basically limited to the instances where a thread is designed to provoke a negative reaction, and so we as a community drown it in nonsense. Or if it's someone's birthday.

    I don't think i've found any other community as helpful as polycount.
  • FredH
    Adam - Thanks for the input. The reason an official nod is needed is because on multi challenge websites like UC and DW, team logos are displayed. These logos can't be displayed if forums don't allow it. For instance, I can't place Art Station's logo on Dominance War, and Artists will probably be asked to remove Art Station's logo on their entries if Art Station did not agree to let them use it.

    If an open call is made for entries and everyone can join from anywhere and represent any site, there would be no team colors or logos. It would be like having an Olympics, but athletes are allowed to compete for any country. A big aspect to what makes the Olympics special and a pride for each country, would be lost. Plus, the reason multi-community challenges work very well is because each community has its own members and commenters. Since each team has its own dedicated following, artists that participate on a team have that dedicated support from a group that they are already familiar with and friends with. If DW was simply held on GA, there would be too many artists at once, leaving artists feeling isolated in a sea of entries.

    PIOR - Yes, perhaps I'm old school and remember the days when a certain artist was mocked with cats. And yes, I always hear comments about how Polycount was rather heavy on the critiques. This was even mentioned in the Ryan Hawkin's podcast at the end. I haven't visited this site since 2011, so I am guessing that this site has changed quite a lot.



  • slosh
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    slosh ngon master
    I tend to be blunt in feedback.  I've almost never seen a student or junior artist looking for crits take that to heart.  As long as your feedback is constructive, anyone who posts tends to understand that.  The only time I see trolling is when people flat out refuse to listen to criticism despite asking for it numerous times and just not liking what they hear.  Even then, it's only if said person insults individuals giving them constructive criticisms.
  • ZacD
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    ZacD interpolator
    pior said:
    The troll like comments that come out of here, cat pic mockeries, harsh w.i.p comments that either makes or breaks student artists, and other forms of bs...

    I honestly never understood where this opinion of the community is coming from. After years of browsing this forum I have never seen a *single* thread ending up in this fantasized bashing of artists.
    The closest was when there would be the random, inflammatory thread that would get flooded with cat pics and gifs in an effort to suppress the thread and get it deleted or closed.
    There's also 2 artists in particular that repeatedly get a lot of tough love. 

  • FredH
    Also, the reason no community runs multi-forum challenges is because there is no money in it for the community who organizes it. It's not a business and there is really no way to make money from it. Plus, it takes a ton of work. Forums join DW because its free, its fun, and forums have to do absolutely nothing other than announce that they are in the challenge.

    However, before another UC or DW can be launched, a better foundation is needed so that all the crap that has happened in the past (missed launch dates, man-handled prizes, rushed public posts, etc) will never happen again.


  • adam
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    adam polycounter lvl 14
    There's ways to do this idea of a community Vs. community idea, that's open to anyone from anywhere without needing a nod from anyone to do it. Legally, in good conscience, and fun. I've already shared more than I care too on it, though, so instead I'll say, "Good luck".
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 7
    .... I just realized now why when I joined my firsts DW (the IV, I think), other great artists from previous challenges were no where to be seen....... TIL.

    Anyway;
    If anything, ArtStation, IMO, is in the perfect position to do multi-community challenge.
    * AS is not exactly a community. Does it even have a forum ? I have absolutely no clue. But that means it's in the most neutral position one can hope.
    * They would just have to implement something like a Pledging systems. So that when you submit new art work, it shows up for specific challenge and with the team you are from.
    * The traffic it's already getting.
    I dunno... That's how I see it anyway.

  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    FredH said:
    I got lazy with prizes, I miss managed sponsors money, I messed up judging, I wrote un-pro comments, basically, I messed up quite a lot of things.
    wait wait wait! so no prizes were stolen ? i mean, is miss-management the nice word replacement for misappropriation now ?

    i mean i dont get it, how does anyone come back from that ? DW smelled of misappropriation for a long time with many testimonies to back that up. now with kick starter it seems like another attempt with the same motive. all these ideas sound too grand and involves lot of money and with the history of GA and DW i just dont see how this can be trusted. even if no prizes get miss-managed this time the end goal seems to be profit for the main organizer either directly or indirectly.



  • FredH
    MM said:

    wait wait wait! so no prizes were stolen ? i mean, is miss-management the nice word replacement for misappropriation now ?

    i mean i dont get it, how does anyone come back from that ? DW smelled of misappropriation for a long time with many testimonies to back that up. now with kick starter it seems like another attempt with the same motive. all these ideas sound too grand and involves lot of money and with the history of GA and DW i just dont see how this can be trusted. even if no prizes get miss-managed this time the end goal seems to be profit for the main organizer either directly or indirectly.
    Ah, I see. So the fault was that I went too big, too suddenly and I asked for too much? Plus, with a long list of faults, it would have been wiser to simply, like someone suggested above, start again small, clean things up, and then work my way up slowly. Essentially, prove that I can do it and do it well, before jumping into big things again. This would take another year or two, but it can be done. And for prizes, this will be addressed with the prize holders before the launch of Dominance War VI. Will clean things up. Thanks MM.

    PyrZern - There are many ways to make things more simple. I was hoping to find a way to make things bigger and better. Cinematic shorts, 1-20 champion standings, more languages, prizes, etc. It's a tough puzzle to solve.

  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    unfortunately, i dont think it is as simple as that.

    but if i wanted to simplify it then the main issue is your credibility and it is compromised.
    so anything that involves you whether big or small could be subject to scrutiny, skepticism and distrust.
    i dont know what the solution to that is, or even if there is a solution.
    may be hand over GA, DW, UC to a trust worthy party and detach yourself completely.
    even then it is likely to be looked at the same way.
  • FredH
    MM - True. At this point, there will always be scrutiny, skepticism and distrust. Nevertheless, even though my rep is shot and I must fund GA for another few years, I will continue to do so because I enjoy running challenges.

    Will work towards making bigger things in the future and if artists choose to forgive me at some point along the way, great. If not, oh well, there is nothing that I can do about it.
  • RaptorCWS
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    RaptorCWS polycounter lvl 7
    FredH said:

    "harsh w.i.p comments that either makes or breaks student artists,"


    I started lurking here around 2010 and and joined in 2012 and I don't think I have ever seen anything like this. very few people get really harsh critiques, and those who do generally argue either in that same post or previous posts which is why the critiques turn more harsh. I have seen a couple of individuals get trolled or called out in threads they created that have nothing to do with art, but the mods generally shut those down before they get  out of hand.
  • Daew
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    Daew polycounter lvl 6
    just a thought, but competitions don't have to have prizes, If the competition has a cool theme and a good platform to showcase the work (wips, results) I think people would still join. 
  • m4dcow
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    m4dcow interpolator
    RaptorCWS said:
    FredH said:

    "harsh w.i.p comments that either makes or breaks student artists,"


    I started lurking here around 2010 and and joined in 2012 and I don't think I have ever seen anything like this. very few people get really harsh critiques, and those who do generally argue either in that same post or previous posts which is why the critiques turn more harsh. I have seen a couple of individuals get trolled or called out in threads they created that have nothing to do with art, but the mods generally shut those down before they get  out of hand.
    Yeah the only threads that get testy are the ones where the person looking for critique doesn't take critique well. So they'll make a thread a thread with some work thinking it's the best shit ever, get critiqued, defend against said critiques saying its their style and then others might pile on. I read this in some thread where a guy said "crappy is not a style", and that is an excuse is always a red flag for someone who can't take critique.

    I actually think the feedback on this site is pretty considerate, most people seem to factor in where the person is at skills-wise, and gives them appropriate suggestions to improve. I mean if you were putting in minimal effort and were looking for pats on the ass, you're not gonna get it on polycount.
  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 7
    Well, artists keeping full ownership of the submission would be a step in the direction, maybe ?
  • Steve Schulze
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    Steve Schulze polycounter lvl 14
    I remember a few times where the dog piling thing happened. I think there was a period where we had a few people who were a little on the overly aggressive side. Whatever the case, things are generally civilised here these days, even with folks who aren't so good at taking or utilising critique.

    Fred, I respect your efforts with Game Artisans and with the big competitions. There have been problems and mistakes but you've ultimately given something of value the the games art community. At this point where things are uncertain, it's probably a good time to sit down and have a think about what's important and how best to approach future competitions and ventures. 

    With regards to the competitions I think what you need to do is prioritise. I get the temptation to make these competitions big and exciting and escalate with each year, but it seems that these extra elements often get in the way of the fundamentals of the competition. I think at this point it'd be worth going back to square one and deciding exactly what you absolutely must have in order for a comp to operate well and what you can manage with the resources you have at hand. Once you've made your decisions there, you can start choosing the bonus features with the consideration that none of them can be allowed to interfere with the fundamentals you outlined initially.

    I think the biggest issue you have is trying to carry all of this on your own back. If you ask for some help from your community in getting things organised and keep things running, I'm sure you'll receive plenty of interest. If finances are an issue, I'd suggest looking into a Game Artisans Patreon. For an ongoing website with regular events, I'd suggest it's a better option than one big unwieldy Kickstarter.


  • FredH
    RaptorCWS - Previously said this: "Yes, perhaps I'm old school and remember the days when a certain artist was mocked with cats. And yes, I always hear comments about how Polycount was rather heavy on the critiques. This was even mentioned in the Ryan Hawkin's podcast at the end. I haven't visited this site since 2011, so I am guessing that this site has changed quite a lot."

    Daew
    "just a thought, but competitions don't have to have prizes, If the competition has a cool theme and a good platform to showcase the work (wips, results) I think people would still join."
    Yes, I run comps with no prizes right now and they work ok. However, the goal was to make bigger challenges with cinematic shorts and a global art jam. I have already formed a new plan and have begun working towards this goal in a new fashion. Will get there eventually.

    PyrZern
    Yes, artists already have full ownership of their work. However, that ownership is limited when it's a comicon challenge or blizzardfest challenge. In DW and UC, artists can do whatever they want with their work. Some made tutorial dvd's of their work in the past.

    Steve
    Patreon account? This would have happened, but not for GA. I would have made it for V2. V2 would have had 10-11 freelance high caliber artists that I would have "imported" from around the world. They could then stay at V2 Montreal and work on their own personal freelance work to support themselves in Montreal. Also, since V2 is an studio workshop, these artists would be able to make instant friends within Montreal's community via numerous events held at V2, and they would have also been part of a profit sharing circle with a Patreon account. 11 high caliber artists, placing continual content into a patreon account of V2 sketch session art, V2 workshop demos, V2 Talks, personal art, etc... all packaged and made pretty by Team V2, a web development team (note: Team V2 would also work on their own paid contract work to fund themselves, and they would not be part of the profit sharing circle). PLUS, the biggest reason V2 was needed was for an acquired ability to create cinematic shorts. With 11 high caliber artists in house, plus a studio workshop where we could bring in additional volunteer artists like previously done with DW IV's cinematic short at GA Montreal, we would have had all the needed personnel to make some stellar opening cinematic shorts for Dominance War. It would have been great.

    As for running GA, in the past, the problem has always been in maintaining the site while I worked on making challenges. For instance, there hasn't been an update on GA for 1 year because I was away working on a Kickstarter campaign. Same thing happened with UCs and DWs. Each time a challenge was launched, GA would suffer. Fortunately, I just recently found a solution for this. Virtual Assistants. They cost money which means that I would have to change jobs from a coffee barista back into a full time web developer for extra funds ... but at least it frees up my spare time to concentrate on the bigger picture. So moving forward, I will begin to remove myself from the daily functions of GA and instead concentrate on making the next big thing, which is UC, DW and perhaps one day, Planetary Challenge.

  • xvampire
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    xvampire polycounter lvl 12

    I got my first job because I posted my website link at GA job board. 
    the place was quite look like discussion forum back then and was character heavy  ( and some animation ), its a good thing.
       but for now it is hard to navigate for my taste ( unless it supposed to be  exclusive Portfolio web page just like Artstation)
    my suggestion is to separate the discussion board on top of the page and front page , just like in CGhub and polycount.
    but again its up to you of course.

    as kickstarter,    my suggestion is not to use that,  unless the project is 75% done, I mostly gave up kickstarter 
    it happen many many times, even with reputables names, a lot of them can't deliver. 
    ( I only support close friends and ex coworker s, who happen to develop games there ) 
    why ? it is nature that kickstarter need to show promise  because of time limit .  dev need to show promise in order to get fund up front, 
    ended up as sloppy promise

      I agree with patreon based. 
    and convince people it is tip based ,don't worry some people will still donate regardless they will get exclusive reward or not .
    many people do this, of course the figure not as big as kickstarter, but it keeps you work and motivated deliver promise every month . regardless how small the changes is.
    from there I think you could build trust. much better than many kickstarters project

    that's my 2 cents ,:) .


    Yandere SIM :
    patreon https://www.patreon.com/YandereDev?ty=h

  • FredH
    XVAMPIRE - I watched the video and I also checked out his patreon page. Steve mentioned the same above, about creating a patreon account. I did not fully understand the meaning behind his words until you showed me this video and patreon page. *Saved.* I also like the fact that Yandere, over time, acquired the ability to find some stellar volunteers, who were then converted into paid team members. For now, I can convert the kickstarter into a patreon, who's end goal is to create the vision that I said in the Kickstarter. So via Patreon, I can attempt to build up Team V2 slowly, over time. The one big thing I cringe at, is maintaining the patreon account. I am really horrible at maintaining things. But I might be able to find some students at Second Cup who are studying English literature or similar, who can help with writing things for the patreon. This way, everyone can be kept up to date on V2's progress towards making bigger things.

    About GA's site design, I changed it sooo much in the past that I prefer to leave it as is for now. It's usually upsetting to members if i continually change the site. New users who signed up between 2015-2016, did so because they like the current GA design. They would hate a change. Plus, old users would never like any form of new design anyways, so it's a loose loose scenario to make a change.
  • Magihat
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    Magihat sublime tool
    You keep talking about cinematic shorts like it's an big important selling point when its honestly just an totally unnecessary money-sink. Who is this for and why? It sure as hell won't benefit artists competing and it strikes me as a vanity project only to toot your own horn. The more you speak about what you wanted V2 to be and your current plans the more clueless and detached from your own community you seem.
  • FredH
    Magihat - Yes, cinematic shorts are extremely important. They depict the story line of a new challenge and also feature entries of previous high standing champions. Every game has cinematic shorts that are presented at the beginning, during, and end of a game. It makes the overall experience that much more entertaining. Today, games cannot function without these clips. I would like to do the same, but for art challenges. There would be full cinematic shorts (approximately 2 minutes) that explain the story line and is released on launch of a challenge. And then there would also be 30 second Teasers that are shown months before a challenge is actually launched. Teasers would help build the momentum of a challenge and get artists excited. I would like to make a better experience for artists and I believe cinematic shorts would help immensely. Out of all features, cinematic shorts is the absolute most important addition for future challenges *Edit addition*... "but given its need for a dedicated core team, it is also the hardest to implement."
  • Jonas Ronnegard
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    Jonas Ronnegard Polycount Sponsor
    I think that is an example of something that should be very low priority, at least for me a cinematic short would do very little for me in regards to me wanting to join the challenge or not, and to create a good quality cinematic it costs way too much, that should probably be very far down on the list.
  • FredH
    In case you didn't see this clip, a cinematic was produced before for DWV. A ton was learned. I hope, with the help of artists, volunteers, and V2, to make better clips in the future.


  • cptSwing
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    cptSwing polycounter lvl 8
    Anybody ever joined a game art competition because of a shortfilm? Seems like a colossal waste of time and resources, especially if the result is half cringeworthy as above.
  • FredH
    btw, this is probably a bad thing to say here at this point in time, but I have continually seen posts about money. GAV, Emil, Adam (who helped make artists into millionaires and makes a good living), you, and others. The general consensus is that my motives must be for profit so everything that I do is geared towards getting rich. From a business perspective, running DW is absurd. Creating multi-page challenges in various languages is a waste of money. Creating content for other communities for free is dumb. Making cinematic shorts is a sinkhole for cash. etc, etc.

    However, in 10 years, I have continually proved the opposite. Never have I mentioned anywhere that my goal was to make a great living from GA, to make artists rich, to buy a fancy car, or anything similar that involves money. I currently work as a coffee barista, which is a minimum wage job. I enjoy it because I get to put a smile on peoples face. Plus, with my modest earnings, I continually fund GA... for 10 years. Plus, I invested all my inheritance into prizes for Dominance War II and III. Why? To make a business or get rich? No. I did everything because I enjoy doing it and I think it's something meaningful and should be done. Even on my personal website, Fredrikhultqvist.com, I continually run public events like exhibits, where at the end of the show, art is simply given away for free just to put a smile on peoples face. Money is absolutely meaningless for me. I am a hard core philanthropist and I have continually proved this.

    The comments that made me shut down GA, and hurt the most, were the comments that my motives were purely for greed and to get rich. However, I can understand why this was all said. My Kickstarter campaign should never have been done. I can imagine how it must have been perceived. My bad, big time. Apparently, a philanthropist should never be put in charge of trying to raise money.
  • Jonas Ronnegard
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    Jonas Ronnegard Polycount Sponsor
    I think working with art and trying to make a profit is great and I honestly get a bit frustrated sometimes when people work on stuff for thousands of hours and just put it up for free, kinda like being rich and starting a free waffles stand next to people selling waffles to make a living but yeah that isn't really related to this, I think the reason why people are calling you out on it is because what you say doesn't really seem to be the reality.

    For example now you say that you took money out of your own pocket to pay for prizes, but what everyone else have heard is that you took prizes and used it for other stuff, which one is true I have no idea, but there seems to be a lot of stories that doesn't fit.
  • FredH

    cptSwing said:
    Anybody ever joined a game art competition because of a shortfilm? Seems like a colossal waste of time and resources, especially if the result is half cringeworthy as above.
    Aside from Dominance War V, there has never been anyone else who made a cinematic for an Art Challenge. The resources required to create cinematic shorts is extremely difficult to come by and can only be attained in specific conditions. Yes, the above cinematic short could have been better. I totally agree. It was a learning process. The next one will be better and the one after that, 10x better, etc. We have to start somewhere :)

    I think working with art and trying to make a profit is great and I honestly get a bit frustrated sometimes when people work on stuff for thousands of hours and just put it up for free, kinda like being rich and starting a free waffles stand next to people selling waffles to make a living but yeah that isn't really related to this, I think the reason why people are calling you out on it is because what you say doesn't really seem to be the reality.

    For example now you say that you took money out of your own pocket to pay for prizes, but what everyone else have heard is that you took prizes and used it for other stuff, which one is true I have no idea, but there seems to be a lot of stories that doesn't fit.

    Yes, I funded DW II and half of DWIII. The prizes people refer to are from DWIV, where I ultimately screwed up. I failed to raise money online to sustain the prize expectations that DW III left, so I embarked on a new path. I opened a studio to see if I can gather funds from this source instead. A catastrophic mess up! Once this all failed, I removed prizes and since then, instead of trying to make money online, I got a job so that I was and am currently still able to sustain GA personally. So what people are saying about me and my shady times during DW IV are absolutely true. I messed up with prizes and take full responsibility for this. If GA one days gets to a level where it actually makes money, I have a lot to atone for, but this is between me in the prize holders. I will deal with this. I can't really move forward until I have cleaned up the past, or at least try to (Like discussed with MM, my motives will always be scrutinized forever because of what has happened. There is no real fix for this other than to try)
  • FredH
    To date, I tried to make money to support my endeavors on GA online from 2006-2011. Failed. Spent 2 years trying via a physical studio. Failed. Now I spent 1 entire year creating a Kickstarter... Failed.

    Despite all these colossal failures, I still run challenges and enjoy doing them.

    If one day I actually do find a means to support my grande vision and to gather a team to help make it all happen, all I can say is, I have a lot of pent up energy to make some fantastic things for everyone.

    My next attempt will most likely be Patreon thanks to XVampire and Steve's suggestion.
  • Magihat
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    Magihat sublime tool
    FredH said:
    Despite all these colossal failures, I still run challenges and enjoy doing them.
    The lesson any sane person would learn from this is to stick with what works and not try to bloat your brand like you have and failed with numerous times. Put your grand visions on the back burner until you can afford to pay for them yourself and just make the challenges the best they can be for the time being - without all the additional fluff you think it needs. Stacking up more failures will just contribute to eventually killing off any interest people may still have in DW.
  • littleclaude
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    littleclaude polycounter
    Shame about all the politics to Dominance-War & Unearthly Challenge competitions as I love the final outcomes and would love to see these back up and running.

     
  • MM
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    MM polycounter lvl 13
    cptSwing said:
    Anybody ever joined a game art competition because of a shortfilm? Seems like a colossal waste of time and resources, especially if the result is half cringeworthy as above.
    agreed, such cinematics are not important at all and waste of time.

    these ideas of grand cinematic trailers are mostly pointless. no cinematic is needed to get the story line. it is an unnecessary waste of time and money.

    you manage to invent these stuff that mostly only you think are important and as a result you create more excuses for asking for more money for said stuff. in reality non of it is needed.

    if you want to organize free contests and run a free forum then leave money out of it altogether. otherwise make your forum a paid subscription.
  • FredH

    Magihat said:
    FredH said:
    Despite all these colossal failures, I still run challenges and enjoy doing them.
    The lesson any sane person would learn from this is to stick with what works and not try to bloat your brand like you have and failed with numerous times. Put your grand visions on the back burner until you can afford to pay for them yourself and just make the challenges the best they can be for the time being - without all the additional fluff you think it needs. Stacking up more failures will just contribute to eventually killing off any interest people may still have in DW.
    Agreed, cinematic shorts, prizes, 1 year launch dates, etc, will be placed on the backburner for now. I've been gone from GA for 1 year. I must make the site as solid as possible before making another push forward.

    MM said:
    cptSwing said:
    Anybody ever joined a game art competition because of a shortfilm? Seems like a colossal waste of time and resources, especially if the result is half cringeworthy as above.
    agreed, such cinematics are not important at all and waste of time.

    these ideas of grand cinematic trailers are mostly pointless. no cinematic is needed to get the story line. it is an unnecessary waste of time and money.

    you manage to invent these stuff that mostly only you think are important and as a result you create more excuses for asking for more money for said stuff. in reality non of it is needed.

    if you want to organize free contests and run a free forum then leave money out of it altogether. otherwise make your forum a paid subscription.

    Will look forward to one day proving you wrong about cinematic shorts.
  • adam
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    adam polycounter lvl 14
    Fred I don't recall ever specifying that it was because I felt you were in it to get rich or being greedy that made me not want to work with you. It was how you managed events and behaviour towards them that I questioned that made me want to not work with you. Plenty others may have that opinion, but I don't personally. It wasn't my intention to make you think that is my opinion so I'd appreciate you not bringing me up when you mention that sort of thing.
  • FredH

    I was under the impression that a splash page with dollar signs posted 5 years ago was a suggestion that I was doing things solely for profit.




  • Gav
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    Gav ngon master
    I probably did say those words, but to be honest, "rich" in this case is shorthand for the combination of all the points previously said which put what you're doing in a moral grey area.  Most of which you have admitted to in this thread.  While I highly doubt you're making a dime off of this, it is was and always will be shady to pair a competition where artists volunteer their time with a brick and mortar base of operations, misuse of their work, and not delivering. I saw the financial breakdown, I get where the money goes, but then when the suggestion comes up to NOT do some of those things, you claim they are needed - even though plenty of other places do exactly that (here being one of them.)  Plus, while "rich" may be a bit extreme, there absolutely is a sense of money surrounding the situation which makes it "seem" like you are gaining something. I mean, the impression of this KS, the first time you were asking for donations, then the main sticking point for you seeming to be funding, it certainly seems about money to some degree. 

    This really does feel like opening a time capsule and having the exact same debate as 5 years ago.  If the thread about this whole mess wasn't removed, presumably because it turned into an endless argument, I'm almost positive we could copy and paste points from then to now and they would still be relevant.

    Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure the reason that splash page got taken down and the thread removed is from Adam.

  • StephenVyas
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    StephenVyas polycounter lvl 12
    FredH said:
    In case you didn't see this clip, a cinematic was produced before for DWV. A ton was learned. I hope, with the help of artists, volunteers, and V2, to make better clips in the future.



    As much as I love animation...
    This is like stretching a piece of Super Sculpey in so many directions... sooner or later you'll see holes in the quality of content.
    This type of promotion can have the opposite effect of gaining attention. I'd pass on the event if this is all I saw about it.

    I've jumped in on many fun contests/challenges over the years and not one forum has needed a short film to persuade me to do so

    Contests and Challenges are more about the people joining in and connecting with them than it has ever been about being convinced via marketing and promo art.

    The absolute best marketing you can ask for is via word of mouth.
    It carries far more weight, especially if it's coming from Artists you respect and enjoy hanging around.
    "Oh hey, looks like a new Dominance War is happening... You in?"
      
    All we need is a blog post describing the Content, Rules, and Duration of the event. None of which that trailer offered.
  • EarthQuake
    +1 to short films being a completely unnecessary waste of time and resources.
  • Tits
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    Tits mod
    +2 for the short fillm idea making no sens at all and a huge waste of time/money.
    plus that video cinematic is ridiculous as hell.
  • JacqueChoi
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    JacqueChoi interpolator
    Should point out a few things:


    Canadian Media fund might fund the entire V2 thing outright (Possibly the cinematics as well). Most indie games being made in Montreal are funded through the experimental stream:
    http://www.cmf-fmc.ca/funding-programs/experimental-stream/

    There's a specialist who works at GamePlaySpace right by where your old gallery used to be, if you or any Montreallers want free help with drafting of their grant proposal, business plan write-up, and budget planning/marketing.

    Telefilm might fund short films (like cinematics) outright, which is something many quebecois film makers get funding through:
    http://www.telefilm.ca/en/funds-and-programs/micro-budget-production-program

    And The Canada Arts Council will help anyone setup an art gallery (and also fund your cinematic as a marketing trailer):
    http://canadacouncil.ca/council/grants/general-eligibility
    There's likely a LOT more government funding available for schools, & workshops, etc.



    I guess the obvious thing people are trying to point out is:

    You want to be an Art Gallery Running, Workshop/Instructor, Web Media/Business Owning, Film Maker, who also runs these mega-contests? And you're wondering why people are doubting you?

  • Joopson
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    Joopson Polycount Sponsor
    Yeah, cinematic short just isn't important. I get why you'd want to make one (and you should, in your free time, for fun, unrelated to this stuff) but it's unnecessary for a competition, and probably won't be a deciding factor for anyone.
  • STRIKER
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    STRIKER polycounter lvl 9
    Fred listen to what the people are saying, no one cares about cinematics and shit. Honestly i was excited to hear about the KS about what i thought was for DW/Comicon ect because i do understand that maintaining something like this is fkn hard. But when i saw that you wanted to fund another studio for anything to happen, i was pissed. Felt like you were holding these challenges hostage. Most of the ideas you listed that you wanted is the opposite of what the community wants. 
  • slosh
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    slosh ngon master
    I have to agree that the cinematic shorts just isn't helping your argument Fred.  And I've given you honest feedback on your kickstarter idea in the past.  A lot of the stuff you list as "necessary" just aren't that important to people looking to join competitions, trust me.  I never ONCE made  a decision to join DW or CC because of prizes, cinematic shorts, or the quality of the visuals on GA.  It was because it was comprised of tons of amazing artists and I wanted to be a part of that.  Every non GA competition I've joined has been the same.  My goal was to create an awesome character and exchange feedback with talented individuals along the way...end of story.  I hope you just drop a lot of the stuff you are suggesting as solutions and focus on what is important.
  • Kend
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    Kend polycounter lvl 7
    +3 the short film idea is ridiculous, anyone who has worked in the industry will tell you proper quality cinematics/ animations etc. take a whole studio of people to complete and alot of money more than you can raise from kickstarter. Also that one you posted is cringeworthy and embarassing and gives people a reason not to be involved in it.

    Also I'll give one more plug to the small comp I started in response to the comiccon challenge shutdown and this whole situation, NO prizes, no short films, no kickstarters, just artists learning and having fun.

    http://polycount.com/discussion/171109/heroes-and-villains-thread-challenge/p1
  • Segreto
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    Segreto Polycount Sponsor
    Even if a proper cinematic was made for the next DomWar or whatever and it was balls to the walls awesome, it still wouldn't be worth it, nor would it be viewed very well. You are venturing into morally gray territory with them. Cinematics are nothing but a marketing gimmick to get people to buy games. You aren't selling anything, nor are you making money off the comps... so why do it? Why add another money-pit into the equation, when you're already having trouble funding the comps to begin with? Why continually regurgitate other peoples artwork in your own endeavors? Specifically speaking of the domwar V video, I wouldn't be too pleased to see my artwork plastered up in some crappy video, knowing its serving absolutely no purpose whatsoever. The animation is a bit of a disservice to the fine work that was made in those competitions, whether those artists 'agreed' to it or not.
  • MrHobo
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    MrHobo polycounter lvl 8
    +Infinity,  the short film ideas needs to go. Its just a money/energy sink
    You really need to sit down and separate what you want from what is best for the contests/community.

  • PyrZern
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    PyrZern polycounter lvl 7
    I just gave more thoughts into cinematic clips; since it seems it's an important part to you, Fred.

    I don't think this is practical at all; but I think the cinematic would make sense only after the DW competition is finished; and winners are decided/announced. Maybe top 20-30 entries get a quick cameo appearance in the cinematic; before getting killed/slaughtered by the 'Champions/Winners. And maybe the top 3 get a chance to nuke it out a bit. But this means you need...

    * complete final mesh, textures, and all files from each top entries.   // Your reputation is at stake for this part.
    * Awesome team of riggers and animators working their asses off to deliver the cinematic while people are still excited about the ended DW. (hello 80hrs a week)
    * The quality needs to be superb.
    * And you gotta pay them, how ??

    All in all; I don't see a way to pull this off.

    So; I too think cinematic gotta go.
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