Thats quite a lot. Seems to be a trend now of laying people of once they get their current title shipped.
Yep. I think people in this industry would be wise to be ready for the worst come shipping time...which is a bit unfair really. Having to plan for that on top of having the stress of finishing the game is a bit much. I think people should even fear it if there is another game in the pipeline, cause it takes time for production to ramp up.
Except this title didn't sell as well as they hoped (in case you're comparing this to Red dead.
~ Good point. I'm guessing Rockstar did it because they could. Whereas Realtime did it because of bad sales. Either way, I'm reconsidering this as being 'a new fad'. Especially as a large wad of money usually comes in to the studio once the game is officially complete.
Very sad news, hopefully those who lost their jobs are able to find work quickly.
Doesn't Flava-Fly from these boards work there, maybe he knows some more?
Wasn't it just the other day they were talking about some big plans, obviously things aren't going quite as well as they hoped.
Also, this is coming from a very inexperienced perspective (read; I know nothing about the economic details) but I'd have thought for a game such as APB which has the initial purchase price of say £29.99 and then a subscription model on top, I'm presuming financial forecasts are likely to include income from subscribers.
APB seemed like it sold fairly well initially but then players lost interest quickly and therefore the subscription based incomes were far lower. So if they ploughed a stack of money into it hoping for a return primarily from the subscriptions then they get into a pretty tricky situation.
Not that it makes it any better for those who were laid off, but it might explain why it's happened in this instance.
compare red dead's marketing to apb.. I can't remember seeing a single ad for apb to be honest, I didn't know when the release date was. red dead was all over the place. I think the publisher dropped the ball there
Very sad.
A friend of mine (game designer) is in these sixty people.
MyWorld was presented to attract investors but it was already too late. Maybe they will keep their team small waiting to new cash flow.
Next to them, Ruffian Games isn't really in a better shape.
Sad.
I hope everyone will find some place to drop.
Judging the success of an MMO title based on initial sales seems a little foolish, especially in relation to redundancies as a result.
Even though I'm sure it did well, it's not like WoW had over nine million subscribers at launch, and it was a very different game then than it is now. It takes time for an MMO to address (some) gameplay issues and build a subscriber base. Not to mention the oversaturation of MMO titles either on the market, or in the pipe.
Hope everyone affected lands on their feet quickly.
Current companies need to learn how to outsource better.
I would rather 'lay off' my outsourcers than my core development team.
Today's development pipeline has changed so much. I don't think you can have the huge teams anymore unless you have the money to back it up. I believe in a small core team and utilizing outsourcers to bump up your numbers for production. Then, when you reach the end of the project, the outsourcers are cut and your core team can roll into the next project's pre production.
Crap news guys, good luck to all those affected. Even if the sales weren't good the skills behind producing that game were AAA.
Completely agree with SkankZero on this.
It's about time our industry transitions into a more stable format.
Overstaffed company + one title + praying for squizillions != winning formula... god knows why people ever thought it would.
We need to adopt a more flexible process with staffing, core fulltime staff and outsourcing more is at the very least a much more honest approach for the workers.
That and having more than one project on the go with soft transitions between titles...not this "finished one, now what?" process.
Really sucks to hear this. Hope everyone bounces back quickly. Really shitty situation that people are getting laid off after a project is done.
Actually just read today on Kotaku that n-Space cut 25% of there people which was 100 employees. The reason given was "wrapping up a bunch of titles simultaneously".
Next to them, Ruffian Games isn't really in a better shape.
I'm surprised to hear that. Crackdown 2 was at number one in the charts for a while wasn't it? They'd have made a fair amount out of that wouldn't they?
Definitely agree about the core staff + outsourcers/contractors thing unfortunately that business model totally strips away the illusion of stable long term employment
Though I suppose in the end it is better that way. Outsourcers/contractors can negotiate more pay to cover the transition time between jobs and can be ready for when their time is up.
The amount of bile APB got from average gamers was completely off the wall. Beta testers were complaining and breaking the NDA on purpose to show others "how bad it was".
It's really sad to see this happen so much in the industry. Almost makes me wish another complete crash would occur, everyone had to restart, and profit wasn't the single most important driving force behind every single game /idealism.
...Definitely agree about the core staff + outsourcers/contractors thing unfortunately that business model totally strips away the illusion of stable long term employment
"Its an illusion Michael, a trick is something a whore does for money...or candy."
Never good to hear something like this. It's definitely one of my fears getting into this industry; I'm already living in the 3rd city of my adult life and it would be nice to avoid that 4th, 5th, or 6th one.
Yeah, a common pattern, a sign perhaps that games are existing beyond their means?
I'm not so sure our industry is existing beyond its means, just beyond the means at which publishers are confident they will turn a decent profit.
Publishers want the same piece of the pie so we lose out before they do.
When faced with an issue of waning demand they cut back on supply.
With the GFC people either have far less disposable income or are just less willing to part with it.
Take Australia for a second, the GFC hardly touched us compared to the States, we had positive growth and a sustained unemployment but people still freaked out and the government had to 'stimulate' spending to keep it growing.
So whether the fear is warranted or not people have become choosy with their $$$
Lets take a hypothetical look into the workings of Joe Averages brain..
- An average full price console title costs me approx $100.
- I'm lucky to get 4-6 hours of game play.
- An average film costs me approx $9- $14 to see at the cinema.
- It lasts, lets say 2 hours?
Now add the fact that casual games can keep me absorbed for days at a fraction of the price and what do I do?
Instead of buying a full priced title Joe Average goes to the movies with some mates, gets a few beers and when he gets home buys Zomies vs Plants on Steam.
So how do publishers react to these types of trends?
They cut 'excessive' spending, sadly what they call excessive now was once perfectly fine and kept everyone employed.
Now they shut companies at a whiff of failure, cancel 'riskier' titles, retreat options to internal studios, outsource less to smaller or unproven companies and rinse and repeat known money earners...Modern Warfare 200 anyone.
Effectively publisher have turtled, sadly that means they drop the rest of the industry like rocks.
So yeah not so much outside of our means, just outside of the means the publishers want for their bottom line.
It does give developers some opportunity though, if we are at rock bottom then publishers have much less power over us and we can define our own way up.
Its a chance to think of ways to circumvent the need for them?
Self publishing developers
Online distribution (Steam is an awesome example, I buy all my games there now.)
Direct to console distribution - XBLA and PSN (cuts out the middle man at least)
Also cheaper development options are opening up which can only help with future start-ups. Options such as the ones we've seen from UDK and Unity fighting for a market share.
Anyway this is a total thread derail but I think there is as much chance for opportunity as there is for calamity.
Good luck to all the guys/girls who were let go over the last year and a bit, maybe some of you can start the next generation of developers who think sustainable not just profitable.
I'm surprised to hear that. Crackdown 2 was at number one in the charts for a while wasn't it? They'd have made a fair amount out of that wouldn't they?
From what I hear from Ruffian they are doing very well....
Shame about realtime worlds, got a lot of friends who work there at the moment, hope they find work again fast enough.
It really sucks to watch that company go down man, I beta tested APB from the very start of the closed test and I always admired just how dedicated the team were to really working with the community to make the game as good as it could be.
Granted, I was vocal on occasion about how the game could've been improved, and expressed my thoughts on it's negative points but they gave it a damn good shot, and the game had some real strengths.
All the best to those affected, here's hoping you get back into work asap.
That is messed up. I cant say it was particularly a bad game, it had potential.
I think the subscription pay per hour thing was the main thing that killed it.
edit: And its good to hear someone speak out about the ineptitude. Why do so many game developers keep quiet about this sort of thing? Is the a clause in their contracts? "You do not talk about game development!".
Why do so many game developers keep quiet about this sort of thing? Is the a clause in their contracts? "You do not talk about game development!".
Simple, the more you talk about the blunders of former employers, the less new employers want to take you on for fear that you'll eventually turn around and do the same to them. 'What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas'.
Simple, the more you talk about the blunders of former employers, the less new employers want to take you on for fear that you'll eventually turn around and do the same to them. 'What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas'.
Yeah, but they dont need to advertise their name, like the ex-rtw guy. This sort of management ineptitude seems to be a common pattern in the games industry, from the few stories that get out.
The more people that call it out for what it is the more likely someone will see a pattern and do something about it. Which could result in a better working conditions for staff and possibly even a management that listens.
This sort of management ineptitude seems to be a common pattern in the games industry, from the few stories that get out.
Look up "confirmation bias".
Sorry to hear about RTW. I kinda had a feeling this might happen though, they grew very fast and ended up with a massive team without the appropriate projects and structure to support it.
It reminds me of what happened to GRIN - tried to build on their earlier successes too rapidly, and expanded like crazy without a viable plan for staying afloat, and as a result collapsed in on themselves.
I'm probably over-simplifying and there are many other factors involved, but I'm sure that must be part of it.
Oh my word that's devestating news I never expected this to happen I knew the game had alot of issues but I thought they would pull it out of the fire.
I dunno if something happens to RTW, that might leave a vacuum maybe another company or several smaller companies will rise in it's wake.
Sorry to hear about RTW. I kinda had a feeling this might happen though, they grew very fast and ended up with a massive team without the appropriate projects and structure to support it.
It reminds me of what happened to GRIN - tried to build on their earlier successes too rapidly, and expanded like crazy without a viable plan for staying afloat, and as a result collapsed in on themselves.
I'm probably over-simplifying and there are many other factors involved, but I'm sure that must be part of it.
Well, with broad strokes yes, pretty much how it went.
I dunno if something happens to RTW, that might leave a vacuum maybe another company or several smaller companies will rise in it's wake.
I don't doubt that this will happen, the Scottish government is pretty supportive of the games industry, and a few smaller studios sprung up when Visual Science went down in Dundee too.
Abertay University also said they would be providing support somehow to any new business startups that arise from the ashes of RTW.
Kinda sounds like the top level management weren't really paying attention to what the company was actually making - or at least not paying enough attention. The fact that Dave Jones 'allegedly' didn't start getting involved until late in the dev process doesn't sound good.
Replies
~ Was gonna say the same thing, really hoping that these guys find some work asap. Pretty crappy
But yes. It def sucks and i hope they all land on their feet. Is there any official word yet?
Reported by someone affected on another gaming forum.
Yep. I think people in this industry would be wise to be ready for the worst come shipping time...which is a bit unfair really. Having to plan for that on top of having the stress of finishing the game is a bit much. I think people should even fear it if there is another game in the pipeline, cause it takes time for production to ramp up.
I even thought about applying there recently
~ Good point. I'm guessing Rockstar did it because they could. Whereas Realtime did it because of bad sales. Either way, I'm reconsidering this as being 'a new fad'. Especially as a large wad of money usually comes in to the studio once the game is officially complete.
Doesn't Flava-Fly from these boards work there, maybe he knows some more?
Wasn't it just the other day they were talking about some big plans, obviously things aren't going quite as well as they hoped.
Also, this is coming from a very inexperienced perspective (read; I know nothing about the economic details) but I'd have thought for a game such as APB which has the initial purchase price of say £29.99 and then a subscription model on top, I'm presuming financial forecasts are likely to include income from subscribers.
APB seemed like it sold fairly well initially but then players lost interest quickly and therefore the subscription based incomes were far lower. So if they ploughed a stack of money into it hoping for a return primarily from the subscriptions then they get into a pretty tricky situation.
Not that it makes it any better for those who were laid off, but it might explain why it's happened in this instance.
From what ive read the lackluster sales of APB and lack of funding was the catalyst for these layoffs
I think every artist working should be under the assumption that they will canned after shipping,it seems like its the trend now.
Why should we crunch then? Let's drag the projects as much as we can, and keep the money flowing in the bank. :P
Thats when they can the project instead.
Sounds like it could be an entire studio closure.
A friend of mine (game designer) is in these sixty people.
MyWorld was presented to attract investors but it was already too late. Maybe they will keep their team small waiting to new cash flow.
Next to them, Ruffian Games isn't really in a better shape.
Sad.
I hope everyone will find some place to drop.
~ Cos its the color of pussy, and pussy makes me happy.
http://www.mcvuk.com/press-releases/60648/All-Points-Bulletin-APB
Although some layoffs were to be expected, it's hard to consider 60 to be a "small number of redundancies".
Even though I'm sure it did well, it's not like WoW had over nine million subscribers at launch, and it was a very different game then than it is now. It takes time for an MMO to address (some) gameplay issues and build a subscriber base. Not to mention the oversaturation of MMO titles either on the market, or in the pipe.
Hope everyone affected lands on their feet quickly.
thats the most vague way ive heard of sayin your firing people.
not
SD are looking for programmers and QA if anyone needs to pass along job info to those affected.
I would rather 'lay off' my outsourcers than my core development team.
Today's development pipeline has changed so much. I don't think you can have the huge teams anymore unless you have the money to back it up. I believe in a small core team and utilizing outsourcers to bump up your numbers for production. Then, when you reach the end of the project, the outsourcers are cut and your core team can roll into the next project's pre production.
Completely agree with SkankZero on this.
It's about time our industry transitions into a more stable format.
Overstaffed company + one title + praying for squizillions != winning formula... god knows why people ever thought it would.
We need to adopt a more flexible process with staffing, core fulltime staff and outsourcing more is at the very least a much more honest approach for the workers.
That and having more than one project on the go with soft transitions between titles...not this "finished one, now what?" process.
Actually just read today on Kotaku that n-Space cut 25% of there people which was 100 employees. The reason given was "wrapping up a bunch of titles simultaneously".
I'm surprised to hear that. Crackdown 2 was at number one in the charts for a while wasn't it? They'd have made a fair amount out of that wouldn't they?
Best wishes to those affected.
Definitely agree about the core staff + outsourcers/contractors thing unfortunately that business model totally strips away the illusion of stable long term employment
Though I suppose in the end it is better that way. Outsourcers/contractors can negotiate more pay to cover the transition time between jobs and can be ready for when their time is up.
It's really sad to see this happen so much in the industry. Almost makes me wish another complete crash would occur, everyone had to restart, and profit wasn't the single most important driving force behind every single game /idealism.
"Its an illusion Michael, a trick is something a whore does for money...or candy."
- Gob, wisest of the wise.
I'm not so sure our industry is existing beyond its means, just beyond the means at which publishers are confident they will turn a decent profit.
Publishers want the same piece of the pie so we lose out before they do.
When faced with an issue of waning demand they cut back on supply.
With the GFC people either have far less disposable income or are just less willing to part with it.
Take Australia for a second, the GFC hardly touched us compared to the States, we had positive growth and a sustained unemployment but people still freaked out and the government had to 'stimulate' spending to keep it growing.
So whether the fear is warranted or not people have become choosy with their $$$
Lets take a hypothetical look into the workings of Joe Averages brain..
- An average full price console title costs me approx $100.
- I'm lucky to get 4-6 hours of game play.
- An average film costs me approx $9- $14 to see at the cinema.
- It lasts, lets say 2 hours?
Now add the fact that casual games can keep me absorbed for days at a fraction of the price and what do I do?
Instead of buying a full priced title Joe Average goes to the movies with some mates, gets a few beers and when he gets home buys Zomies vs Plants on Steam.
So how do publishers react to these types of trends?
They cut 'excessive' spending, sadly what they call excessive now was once perfectly fine and kept everyone employed.
Now they shut companies at a whiff of failure, cancel 'riskier' titles, retreat options to internal studios, outsource less to smaller or unproven companies and rinse and repeat known money earners...Modern Warfare 200 anyone.
Effectively publisher have turtled, sadly that means they drop the rest of the industry like rocks.
So yeah not so much outside of our means, just outside of the means the publishers want for their bottom line.
It does give developers some opportunity though, if we are at rock bottom then publishers have much less power over us and we can define our own way up.
Its a chance to think of ways to circumvent the need for them?
Self publishing developers
Online distribution (Steam is an awesome example, I buy all my games there now.)
Direct to console distribution - XBLA and PSN (cuts out the middle man at least)
Also cheaper development options are opening up which can only help with future start-ups. Options such as the ones we've seen from UDK and Unity fighting for a market share.
Anyway this is a total thread derail but I think there is as much chance for opportunity as there is for calamity.
Good luck to all the guys/girls who were let go over the last year and a bit, maybe some of you can start the next generation of developers who think sustainable not just profitable.
From what I hear from Ruffian they are doing very well....
Shame about realtime worlds, got a lot of friends who work there at the moment, hope they find work again fast enough.
http://www.develop-online.net/news/35644/Breaking-Realtime-Worlds-enters-administration
A real shame for all involved.
Wow... that is terrible news.
It really sucks to watch that company go down man, I beta tested APB from the very start of the closed test and I always admired just how dedicated the team were to really working with the community to make the game as good as it could be.
Granted, I was vocal on occasion about how the game could've been improved, and expressed my thoughts on it's negative points but they gave it a damn good shot, and the game had some real strengths.
All the best to those affected, here's hoping you get back into work asap.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/16/redundancies-at-real-time-worlds/#comment-491791
That is messed up. I cant say it was particularly a bad game, it had potential.
I think the subscription pay per hour thing was the main thing that killed it.
edit: And its good to hear someone speak out about the ineptitude. Why do so many game developers keep quiet about this sort of thing? Is the a clause in their contracts? "You do not talk about game development!".
Simple, the more you talk about the blunders of former employers, the less new employers want to take you on for fear that you'll eventually turn around and do the same to them. 'What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas'.
Yeah, but they dont need to advertise their name, like the ex-rtw guy. This sort of management ineptitude seems to be a common pattern in the games industry, from the few stories that get out.
The more people that call it out for what it is the more likely someone will see a pattern and do something about it. Which could result in a better working conditions for staff and possibly even a management that listens.
Look up "confirmation bias".
Sorry to hear about RTW. I kinda had a feeling this might happen though, they grew very fast and ended up with a massive team without the appropriate projects and structure to support it.
It reminds me of what happened to GRIN - tried to build on their earlier successes too rapidly, and expanded like crazy without a viable plan for staying afloat, and as a result collapsed in on themselves.
I'm probably over-simplifying and there are many other factors involved, but I'm sure that must be part of it.
kind of
I dunno if something happens to RTW, that might leave a vacuum maybe another company or several smaller companies will rise in it's wake.
Well, with broad strokes yes, pretty much how it went.
I don't doubt that this will happen, the Scottish government is pretty supportive of the games industry, and a few smaller studios sprung up when Visual Science went down in Dundee too.
Abertay University also said they would be providing support somehow to any new business startups that arise from the ashes of RTW.
Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket... sorry to hear that one mistake killed a company.