I actually got rejected by these guys for "not being what they wanted" in an enviro artist. That made me sad, sniff. I think they deserve my thanks though. Being let go twice in less than a year would have killed my passion to work in games.
A friend of mine that is a gameplay designer noticed they were looking for one of those (Like senior-level or higher) a few months before release. That can't be a good sign. Gameplay is like the first thing you should focus on, graphics and flashiness second.
Either way. I feel for the artists. I was let go from a MMO project aswell and can relate.
I think the real question we should be asking is why didn't they just make Crackdown 2 didn't Mircosoft approach them in regards to a sequel after the first game. They were onto a winner with that, most of the top games companies have their golden eggs , Blizzard - Diablo, WOW Creative Assembly - Total Wars Rockstar - GTA EA - Fifa Square enix - Final Fantasy the list goes on and on.
They could've kept APB as a small in house project or an idea floating around within the company.
Frankly there are a few MMO's out there that could make a lot of money but the most obvious one from my standpoint would be a Naruto MMO that manga has been around for over a decade and still going to this day the fanbase is already there just waiting to be tapped into with a good game ofc.
Hey guys, thanks for the support again. Just got let go today long with about another 120+ people. Totally gutted. Has been a difficult few days with the money men but we knew it was coming for the last little while.
It was my first industry job so I learned a ton from everyone there, so many good people. Lots of the UK company's have rallied round with offers for the ones made redundant so hopefully if Dundee cant absorb the loss (which it cant) the British industry as a whole will gain some real talent.
Guess I better get my portfolio/CV/Linkedin all polished up!
Indeed, now I'm going to have to shave and get a hair cut Problem with this is we only found out yesterday so I have had no time to get my stuff together. No access to RTW computers either. We all got locked out. Sporting a far too extreme hangover to be CV writing :<
Two parts of this industry need to talk, one part doesn’t. As I said in 2009: “We need to talk [about failure]; when will we talk [about failure]?”
The professionals: you’re getting burned out, chewed up, and spat out. Your lives are being wasted.
The investors: you’re getting screwed. You write it off as random failure, and you can afford it, but you’re shying away from “games” as a result, leaving good profits behind on the table.
The inexperienced, the mediocre, and all those people who don’t actually MAKE the game, but do get to ruin the process (rockstar-designers, producers, marketers, directors, managers, etc) : you’re doing great. Your lack of skill hasn’t held you back, and the company will often go bankrupt before anyone gets around to firing you for incompetence.
The thing is though, making games need not be such a great risk that these companies can only go with the most conservative, mediocre, homogenised messes(doing that is the greater risk because it turns of the audience completely). To make a game that people like and people want isnt hard. Selling it is probably the hard part.
There were plenty of warning signs before the debacle no one listened no one took notice. Basically idiots are running the farms.
Yes, of course its not entirely as easy as that. Releasing a good product in an oversaturated market and similar caveats. It does have a semi randomness, to it but its not as random as the market would have you think(if it was random there would be no point in doing it). People have a certain amount of predictability about them.
There are plenty of companies that release games reliably consistently and gain adequate income from them. Most of these failed games can be pinned down to a few things(the ones where we have the evidence).
~ Some studios are too hung up on trying to create the best and most original game thats so awesome it'll rock your socks off.
Lest not forget that the biggest selling games, just get ignored by gamer sites, and review magazines.
I'm talking about the terrible film to game titles. As bad as the Iron Man game, or High school musical, or the "Madagascar" games are. They sell huuuuuuge numbers that sometimes overshadow the 'known' titles. People just forget this cos they don't get shown love on places like IGN and gametrailers
Studios making a few of these 'safe' games would really lower the risk of people losing their jobs.
Dreamer, what about Grin? Didn't they make Wanted and Terminator and still close up?
~ I really don't think that would have had to have happened if they didn't put ALL their eggs into that Fortress game.
When studios do that, they are literally at the mercy of the publisher. Whereas movie titles are more likely to come out, and you can still split up your studio to work on other things. So if a publisher says "hey, were DONE paying you!" you still got another golden goose. Wouldn't you agree?
That's exactly it Dreamer there are games and ips that are completely consistently(somewhat depressingly) bankable. Even if all the ancillary movie, other medias are taken, there are lots of games certain audiences want and are not being catered for.
totally depends on the choices grin may have had at the time.
movie licenses certainly aren't easy money anymore - check sites like vgchartz to get an idea for the 'yield' on current consoles. not pretty compared to PS2 days.
plus, thanks to financial instabilities quite a few film productions are said to have shifted or were cancelled alltogether. always with a direct effect on the game's production.
Iron Man and madagascar stuff sells because they ship more or less simultaneously with movies and movie marketing campaign does like 80% of job.
~ Fair point. Although all the big titles now I think have a much smaller market.
Big SUPER epic games like Mass Effect, or Red Dead, or even COD, are kinda for a niche' market. So when people try to imitate them and fall short people say "oh its because the game wasn't epic enough".
Whereas back in the day the big epic games were MARIO, and SONIC, and POKEMON. Totally incredible games, that sold milllllions, simply because they were pretty much for anyone 5years and over. Whereas every 9 year old I know simply does not see the appeal of a game like Mass Effect, let alone a copycat version.
Well, market for 9-year-olds is already overflooded and oversaturated. Look at all those flash stuff and casual game portals.
And there is a tendency of oversimplifying AAA games already, so that everyone and their granny can play it. Actually it has ruined couple of good titles.
I'm newly registered here and just moved from Dundee. It's a shame to see so many people lose out on their jobs, especially in Dundee. It'll be interesting to see what becomes of the artists, and if any studios will be set up.
Dundee itself will not be what it once was. I saw an article today stating that Channel 4 have invested £1m into some projects/companies in Dundee, but it's not like it makes up for all that talent who will be going elsewhere. The best we can hope for is that some of them still hang about in Scotland (Ruffian,Rockstar North,Cohort,Firebrand), instead of going down south or overseas. It has definitely made things tougher for those who had been looking for work previous to the recent events.
Still looks like Dundee has a healthier industry than my hometown in Florida, I'm currently living 1300 miles north of the tropical paradise I grew up in
Justin: Was your home town actually Ft. Lauderdale, or just when to school there? I can say that theirs been several attempts at starting up companies there but they all ended up folding within a few years of starting up, and basically always due to mismanagement.
One company that started up in the area around 06 actually showed some potential that was started by an ex-Blizzard guy. He got an initial investment of about $10mil and hired the best local talent (many of which now work at SID). But then instead of spending the money on the actual game it all went towards decking out the office with statues and making an intro cinematic with voice overs by hollywood actors. Needless to say they burned through the money in no time at all and that was the end of that.
Sorry to hear that Sam, sure by the time you get the course done we will have rebuilt a strong industry here in Dundee! I've been hearing positive things
One company that started up in the area around 06 actually showed some potential that was started by an ex-Blizzard guy. He got an initial investment of about $10mil and hired the best local talent (many of which now work at SID). But then instead of spending the money on the actual game it all went towards decking out the office with statues and making an intro cinematic with voice overs by hollywood actors. Needless to say they burned through the money in no time at all and that was the end of that.
Oh thats so moronic,alot of these studio heads seem to turn into teenagers with their parent's credit card when they get money. Why cant studios wait on such things until they actually shipped a product and have gotten themselves established?
Theres a lot of talk about why Realtime diddn't just make Crackdown 2. From what I have read Raeltime wanted to make the sequel but MIcrosoft took a long time to commit to it leaving the studio with nothing to do so they made APB instead. After the long tail sales of Crackdown Microsoft wanted a sequel but it was too late for Realtime worlds to do it so a group of guys from Realtime set up Ruffian to fufill that contract. I'm not pointing fingers at MS here or anything but it does kind of show that you dont just need a good selling game to stay in business but a FAST and good selling game!
(The data we were presented with was, it would have easily sold 5million copies worldwide)
All they had to do was ship the game on time and on budget for the movie release. Apparently they were trying to make it the most amazing and greatest thing EVER. They were so highly ambitious with this project, that they missed the release date.
Ok...?
So then they decide that they will delay the game for the DVD release... esimating roughly 2 million sales of the game.
With that delay, the publishers think.. "HEY lets throw in those features we cut, lets throw in those additional levels, and some multiplayer, polish up the art and ...
(The data we were presented with was, it would have easily sold 5million copies worldwide)
oh c'mon now. analyst projections - says it all.
look at avatar the game as one of the more successful recent tie ins. 1.7 million sold on three (four with DS) platforms. with a movie tie in in the PS2 days you could have ended up with that alone on one platform and perhaps sell another half of that on the gamecube.
open world batman would have been a costly project to do on very different console hardware, too. also the previous batman game failed to sell big numbers despite being not the cliche shitty tie in and the movie being a runaway success.
And it's hard to create a profound gaming experience on a 6-8 month dev cycle.
hard? next to impossible unless you do a straight copy&paste job from a previous project you have done and know inside out.
balancing a fresh game alone seems to eat almost more than that...
with titles that have to adhere to a movie's schedule it is HARD to even ship something.
hard? next to impossible unless you do a straight copy&paste job from a previous project you have done and know inside out.
balancing a fresh game alone seems to eat almost more than that...
That all depends on the nature of the game.
You can easily create puzzle games and other, simple, retro style games in a couple months.
sure, not a 'profound' AAA title experience, but those are still games.
Getting laid off sucks but oh man, if I had a choice between social/kids games and job security or working on a game a like and risk.. I choose the risk. I left a pretty secure job to get into the game industry because I had no job satisfaction.
Replies
A friend of mine that is a gameplay designer noticed they were looking for one of those (Like senior-level or higher) a few months before release. That can't be a good sign. Gameplay is like the first thing you should focus on, graphics and flashiness second.
Either way. I feel for the artists. I was let go from a MMO project aswell and can relate.
They could've kept APB as a small in house project or an idea floating around within the company.
Frankly there are a few MMO's out there that could make a lot of money but the most obvious one from my standpoint would be a Naruto MMO that manga has been around for over a decade and still going to this day the fanbase is already there just waiting to be tapped into with a good game ofc.
It was my first industry job so I learned a ton from everyone there, so many good people. Lots of the UK company's have rallied round with offers for the ones made redundant so hopefully if Dundee cant absorb the loss (which it cant) the British industry as a whole will gain some real talent.
Guess I better get my portfolio/CV/Linkedin all polished up!
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30005/Portion_Of_Realtime_Worlds_MyWorld_Team_Hired_Back.php
APB: How To Blow $100,000,000.00
Wow!
There were plenty of warning signs before the debacle no one listened no one took notice. Basically idiots are running the farms.
are you sure about that
Yes, of course its not entirely as easy as that. Releasing a good product in an oversaturated market and similar caveats. It does have a semi randomness, to it but its not as random as the market would have you think(if it was random there would be no point in doing it). People have a certain amount of predictability about them.
There are plenty of companies that release games reliably consistently and gain adequate income from them. Most of these failed games can be pinned down to a few things(the ones where we have the evidence).
Lest not forget that the biggest selling games, just get ignored by gamer sites, and review magazines.
I'm talking about the terrible film to game titles. As bad as the Iron Man game, or High school musical, or the "Madagascar" games are. They sell huuuuuuge numbers that sometimes overshadow the 'known' titles. People just forget this cos they don't get shown love on places like IGN and gametrailers
Studios making a few of these 'safe' games would really lower the risk of people losing their jobs.
This instantly made me think of Polyphony Digital with Gran Turismo 5.
~ I really don't think that would have had to have happened if they didn't put ALL their eggs into that Fortress game.
When studios do that, they are literally at the mercy of the publisher. Whereas movie titles are more likely to come out, and you can still split up your studio to work on other things. So if a publisher says "hey, were DONE paying you!" you still got another golden goose. Wouldn't you agree?
movie licenses certainly aren't easy money anymore - check sites like vgchartz to get an idea for the 'yield' on current consoles. not pretty compared to PS2 days.
plus, thanks to financial instabilities quite a few film productions are said to have shifted or were cancelled alltogether. always with a direct effect on the game's production.
Producing mediocre games won't help anyone. And spreading people thin on 5 mediocre titles simultaneously is not a good idea.
Big SUPER epic games like Mass Effect, or Red Dead, or even COD, are kinda for a niche' market. So when people try to imitate them and fall short people say "oh its because the game wasn't epic enough".
Whereas back in the day the big epic games were MARIO, and SONIC, and POKEMON. Totally incredible games, that sold milllllions, simply because they were pretty much for anyone 5years and over. Whereas every 9 year old I know simply does not see the appeal of a game like Mass Effect, let alone a copycat version.
And there is a tendency of oversimplifying AAA games already, so that everyone and their granny can play it. Actually it has ruined couple of good titles.
Dundee itself will not be what it once was. I saw an article today stating that Channel 4 have invested £1m into some projects/companies in Dundee, but it's not like it makes up for all that talent who will be going elsewhere. The best we can hope for is that some of them still hang about in Scotland (Ruffian,Rockstar North,Cohort,Firebrand), instead of going down south or overseas. It has definitely made things tougher for those who had been looking for work previous to the recent events.
One company that started up in the area around 06 actually showed some potential that was started by an ex-Blizzard guy. He got an initial investment of about $10mil and hired the best local talent (many of which now work at SID). But then instead of spending the money on the actual game it all went towards decking out the office with statues and making an intro cinematic with voice overs by hollywood actors. Needless to say they burned through the money in no time at all and that was the end of that.
Oh thats so moronic,alot of these studio heads seem to turn into teenagers with their parent's credit card when they get money. Why cant studios wait on such things until they actually shipped a product and have gotten themselves established?
I work for a studio notorious for this.
High School Musical took around 6-8 months to make with 60 people for 5 SKUs.
(PS2, Xbox, GC, DS, PSP)
Because it was a Montreal development, the subsidies from the government brought it to the cost of 30 devs.
The collective sales on all of those SKUs outsold God of War 2 to 1.
Lets flip this around....
Pandemic was working on a game for Batman: The Dark Knight release.
Estimated sales for the game were roughly $100million regardless of any POS that was put on the shelves at the time of the movies launch.
http://www.next-gen.biz/news/analyst-dark-knight-no-show-cost-ea-and-warner-100-mln
(The data we were presented with was, it would have easily sold 5million copies worldwide)
All they had to do was ship the game on time and on budget for the movie release. Apparently they were trying to make it the most amazing and greatest thing EVER. They were so highly ambitious with this project, that they missed the release date.
Ok...?
So then they decide that they will delay the game for the DVD release... esimating roughly 2 million sales of the game.
With that delay, the publishers think.. "HEY lets throw in those features we cut, lets throw in those additional levels, and some multiplayer, polish up the art and ...
WHAMO Second deadline missed.
Game is cancelled, EA figures they can't really recoup their losses:
http://kotaku.com/5042790/pandemic-batman-game-given-the-arse
As a result, Pandemic closes shop:
http://kotaku.com/5406830/confirmed-ea-closes-pandemic-studios-says-brand-will-live-on
There's a HUGE danger in thinking that we are working in a venture that is NOT a business for generating money.
And it's hard to create a profound gaming experience on a 6-8 month dev cycle.
E for everyone is where the money is at.
T_T
Happy Feet with 1million sales on 2 SKUs:
http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=happy+feet&publisher=&console=&genre=&minSales=0&results=50&sort=Total
Wall-E with around 4million sales:
http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=Wall+E&publisher=&console=&genre=&minSales=0&results=50&sort=Total
Shadow of the Colossus with under 1million sales:
http://www.vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=shadow+of+the+colossus&publisher=&console=&genre=&minSales=0&results=50&sort=Total
oh c'mon now. analyst projections - says it all.
look at avatar the game as one of the more successful recent tie ins. 1.7 million sold on three (four with DS) platforms. with a movie tie in in the PS2 days you could have ended up with that alone on one platform and perhaps sell another half of that on the gamecube.
open world batman would have been a costly project to do on very different console hardware, too. also the previous batman game failed to sell big numbers despite being not the cliche shitty tie in and the movie being a runaway success.
hard? next to impossible unless you do a straight copy&paste job from a previous project you have done and know inside out.
balancing a fresh game alone seems to eat almost more than that...
with titles that have to adhere to a movie's schedule it is HARD to even ship something.
That all depends on the nature of the game.
You can easily create puzzle games and other, simple, retro style games in a couple months.
sure, not a 'profound' AAA title experience, but those are still games.