Inception mindfuck discussion *SPOILERS*
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So, I saw Inception last night, and I can't get it out of my head. I'm going to see it again tonight, maybe that'll straighten some things out, but I'd love to hear people's interpretations of the film. So here's a couple of my theories:
--the ending--
I'm pretty sure on this one that Cobb's stuck in the dream world. Why? a) the children haven't aged, and when you watch the credits there are separate castings for the children that you see and the children that Cobb talks to over the phone. b) we never see evidence of Cobb or Saito getting kicks to get out of limbo or any of the dream worlds. c) it's overly convenient that Saito, after being stuck in limbo for decades if not longer, upon recovering immediately has the witts about him to have Cobb cleared at the border.
--the inception--
So, I didn't really suspect this until after I'd mulled the film over for a few hours, but what if the entire film actually occurs in Cobb's dream state? Mal calls him out, talking about how ridiculous it is that he's pursued by agents and how there's a man who can just make a call and solve all of his problems. I think this is plausible because we already know the ease of nesting various dream-states, and Cobb, while he wants to just sink into dream oblivion, can't consciously choose that. So what if the entire Inception is convincing Cobb that the first layer is really reality, and thus in turn allows him to accept these altered circumstances where he's able to return home? Admittedly this idea is a bit far-fetched but I think it's worth bringing up, if only to engender other ideas about what really happened.
I'll post any new thoughts after my second viewing tonight, but in the mean time what do you guys think? Inception is a sublime film and there's clearly more to it than can be gleaned at first blush.
--the ending--
I'm pretty sure on this one that Cobb's stuck in the dream world. Why? a) the children haven't aged, and when you watch the credits there are separate castings for the children that you see and the children that Cobb talks to over the phone. b) we never see evidence of Cobb or Saito getting kicks to get out of limbo or any of the dream worlds. c) it's overly convenient that Saito, after being stuck in limbo for decades if not longer, upon recovering immediately has the witts about him to have Cobb cleared at the border.
--the inception--
So, I didn't really suspect this until after I'd mulled the film over for a few hours, but what if the entire film actually occurs in Cobb's dream state? Mal calls him out, talking about how ridiculous it is that he's pursued by agents and how there's a man who can just make a call and solve all of his problems. I think this is plausible because we already know the ease of nesting various dream-states, and Cobb, while he wants to just sink into dream oblivion, can't consciously choose that. So what if the entire Inception is convincing Cobb that the first layer is really reality, and thus in turn allows him to accept these altered circumstances where he's able to return home? Admittedly this idea is a bit far-fetched but I think it's worth bringing up, if only to engender other ideas about what really happened.
I'll post any new thoughts after my second viewing tonight, but in the mean time what do you guys think? Inception is a sublime film and there's clearly more to it than can be gleaned at first blush.
Replies
I see a lot of people brining up the whole "maybe the entire movie was a dream" thing, but honestly no. The movie really isn't that shallow. Theres evidence to show whats a dream and whats not.
But it was slowing down and wobbling, previous examples showed the top to spin at a constant speed in dream state.
Also, is it stated how long Cobb's been on the run? That could explain the children's age.
How's this for a thought though..imagine that the ending really was a dream (the top was spinning pretty long), but seeing the children probably hit a switch in Cobb's head (explaining the wobbling)..making his perception of dream into reality. Remember how he explained to the chick that no matter what he does in his dream he can never get his children to turn and look at him. You could say that the act of letting go of his wife's projection also eliminated the guy who gave him the tickets in the past, thus allowing him to interact with his children.
One could say it's the same effect his wife had, where an idea has completely taken over until you can no longer differentiate between dream and reality..no matter how many reality checks (look up lucid dreaming) you do.
As for the ending, I think you can take it either way, but I think there's pretty overwhelming evidence that he's still dreaming. The fact that the scene looked exactly as how he'd imagined it, the kids hadn't aged etc. Michael Caine's character meeting him at the airport seemed very contrived too. You could argue that because he was able to look at his kids' faces meant that he was back there in reality, but more likely he had decided to accept his fate and live in the dream world. I guess it comes down to whether you're a pessimist or an optimist really.
Having the top wobble is a deliberate method for Nolan to toy with the audience. It's a simple metaphor that sums up the entire film very well as it has you questioning the reality of things one final time.
I don't think they said how long he's been on the run. Might have just been a few months.
Right, but we saw the means for that kick, when Saito reached for Cobb's gun. I think we're supposed to assume they killed themselves to kick out of limbo, and the dream constructions above them were already collapsing as that happened.
But he wasn't really stuck there for decades - it was just a dream. The real Saito was just asleep for a few minutes.
That was the only thing I found myself struggling with.
yeah, my only problem with the movie-- I can't reconcile it
@Carver-- "Having the top wobble is a deliberate method for Nolan to toy with the audience. It's a simple metaphor that sums up the entire film very well as it has you questioning the reality of things one final time." Touche. Showing the top at the end is Nolan planting the idea of doubt in the viewer's mind, his own inception
The more I've thought about it the idea of the entire movie being in a dreamstate is disagreable, as that invalidates much of the triumph and accomplishment of the film.
We'll see what happens after tonight.
The entire movie is designed to let both interpretations work as far as I can tell from just one viewing.
3 examples: As far as I remember, you never see the top actually stop spinning by itself, you are merely told that should happen in reality.
Second, they mention that in a dream you never know how you got to where you are. The movie is careful not to let you see how any the characters arrive at any given scene.
Third, though the movie is generally structured to make you believe that 'reality' is real (until the end) there are some pieces of dialogue that suggest that it is all a dream, telling Cobb "it's time to go back to the real world," or "wake up" (Can't remember the exact lines!!)
I really enjoyed it though. Early on I thought it would end with it all being a dream, so the twist for me was that maybe it wasn't! Interesting twist on the cliche of all cliches...
If you ask me, the top started to slow down/lose its pace at the end. That said, I find the theory that his wife was right the entire time really interesting.
I remember seeing the top stop spinning at the beginning, right before Cobb and that other guy boarded the helicopter. Could be wrong though, I really need to see it again.
it was the music que....the guy driving the van ques his music to the one guy...and then he qued the music to the guy on the next level...remeber they were like..."You hear that....then the avalaunche.....and they were like ..we missed the first kick..then he said we'll get it on the next kick when the van hits the water
Yup! I don't know that Inception has a shot for best picture, but it's damned hard to imagine anyone trumping Nolan for original screenplay.
Yeah it's spinning, but I don't remember it falling down. I think he grabbed it before it could stop.
@Adam, but isn't it Cobbs the one who incepted that idea into his wife's mind? Then it would be that Cobb planted the right idea into her mind to help her but not realizing that it's the real truth?
I dont think it works like that. i think it would still feel like any other dream where you cant remember most of it.
nolan is a rip off..then?
I'm relatively certain we did see the top stop spinning in the first while of the film.
It never says he's been on the run for years, it's likely only a couple months.
And while the children's voices might sound a little older over the phone - I don't believe we EVER hear them speaking when we actually see them on screen until the very end, so we don't really know if their voices aged at all - it's likely that they didn't.
In addition - I feel too much of that last half when they're pulling off the "inception" was not focused on Cobb for it to be a dream of his. You have characters in different "levels" of dream that entire time - when we're focused on the guy floating the rest of the team into the elevator, as an example - Cobb has no knowledge of this, he's in a completely different place, it makes no sense to assume that's all a dream of his when he's not even part of a good majority of it. And if THAT part isn't a dream, then all of the things that were supposed to happen in the "real" world prior to it couldn't have been dreams either, as they lead to that point and would not have if they didn't actually happen.
The only part of the film that could conceivably be an instance of Cobb being in a dream when it's seemingly the "real" world, is the end when he reunites with his kids. And while I personally feel it clear that the top does indeed stop spinning, I like that it leaves that part up to the viewer, with no "right" ending.
Great film.
This just shows how amazing and thought out this movie was when you can have people really try and figure out from how you saw it. I LOVE movies that make you think!!
http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2010/07/inceptions_dileep_rao_answers.html
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/An-Illustrated-Guide-To-The-5-Levels-Of-Inception-19643.html
Evidence:
-the top. Wobbled and looked like it was about to falter. In the dream world, it spins constantly.
-the kids. You don't hear the girl speak, and you don't know how long he's been gone. Also the boy looks the same age as he would be on the phone. Casting different actors for the voices is fine if you only want the kids to be a visual symbol through the whole film.
-Limbo. It Saito never shot himself, how did cobb get to the end of the movie 'dream'? they are both in limbo, he would have to create the world first, which would take time and make it less real, he would age while creating it, saito would be there, saito would be old, what the fuck happened to saito?
-Catharsis. Cobb has battled his demons, fought with his desire to live within a dream world, and finally in the end of the film, in an emotional climax, lets his wife die, and lets her memory go. ... So what now he forgets all that and builds a dream world for his kids? uhhuh.
FINALLY, at the end of the movie, Cobb walked away from the top, and we are left with it while he runs to his kids because he doesn't care anymore. He doesn't check the top because he doesn't care if its a dream or not, his kids are all he needs.
Thats why the shot is there, not because its a dream.
also I want a happy ending.
There is a lot of stuff that worked on dream logic in the movie. This, but also the music queues playing at full speed even though it should be massively slowed down-- the explanation for this I think is that it is working as the dreamers expect it to.
I actually think maybe this was intended-- while you are watching the movie, it seems to make sense, but when you come out, you realize it doesn't really.
Limbo space does not belong to anyone, each individual does not have their "own" limbo. Limbo is the universal "unconstructed" dream space, a deep level of dream everyone can potentially reach if they go "deep" enough.
The only reason it seems like "Cobb's" limbo space is because Cobb and his wife are the only two people to have ever been to limbo, and spending 50 (dream) years there - they constructed it to their liking. Hence, anyone who winds up in limbo will see the things they (Cobb and Mal) have created.
Had Cobb and Mal not previously been to limbo, it would be entirely unconstructed space.
Think of "limbo" like a new continent, previously untouched by man. Cobb and Mal were it's first settlers, and up to the point of the film - the only settlers it's ever had (for any length of time). At that point, anyone else who reaches this new place is going to see the things Cobb and Mal left behind, but that doesn't mean it's a place Cobb and Mal own, or that it "belongs" to them, or that they're the only ones who can get there.
It might've had something to do with the fact that they were all "sharing" a dream by use of the sedative that puts them all to sleep and allows them to "share" dreams.
It might be that limbo isn't entirely universal (shared even by those not sharing a chemical compound/linkup to share dreams), but that each "shared" dream has an equally "shared" limbo space (not bound by any one person waking). The movie doesn't specify, it could be either or.
But for all intents and purposes, it's a "shared" space from what I could tell, be it only by the "sharing" dreamers or across all dreamers in the world, it doesn't matter.
...I really want to watch this movie again.
It's a shared space between all of the people in that shared dream. Since the only one who had been there before though was Cobb, it was filled with only what he built when he was in Limbo with his wife. On the whole city rotting, it could be because in the limbo world he hadn't been there for hundreds of years (The time is 10 times longer each level you go down) or it could have been a symbol of his mind collapsing.
But how did he know the van had been driven off a bridge? He had no way of knowing that.
They were trying to create a false memory from a dream in which he was aware, or even if he wasnt aware he would have been when he awoke.
I thought it would be a bit more clever with it, perhaps create scenarios where he enjoys, destroying things, or get him to play at being really hands on with things, and conceptualising that the only way he could do that would be by pulling the company apart making it smaller.
The original plan was for the kick to happen when they broke off of the bridge, so once they missed the first kick they knew that he had driven off the bridge (hopefully) and were going to have another chance when the van hits the water.
I think the weightlessness didn't affect the bodies in the 3rd layer (snow military base) because something 2 levels below them couldn't really directly affect their dreams anymore, and they loose touch with that dream.
I'd like to see the movie again to see when the top stops spinning. He didn't check to see if he ever woke up from the chemists place, but it also seemed to me that people really didn't make up people in their dreams unless they knew or were close with that person.
I think the ending was open to interpretation for sure, the top wobbled a couple times then smoothed out then started to wobble again before the cut to the credits basically making you question the entire movie, just as Cobb was questioning his own reality.
my take was essiential cobb dies in the collapsing 1st limbo and comes back again to another layer of limbo with the old Saito who proceeds to shoot him and kill him again, shooting him wouldnt be a proper kick due to the sedative they were using, so he is in another version of limbo where he basically constructed his perfect reality.
Also my take on the crumbling limbo was he hadnt been there in so long it was like a deteriorated memory, although you could take the aging due to time into effect as another explanation for sure.
and yea they planned to drop the van into the water, they openly talked about it saying "when the van breaks through the barrier off the bridge we will be in free fall" and they had the tank of air to breathe, seeing as it wasnt her dream they were sharing but filled with the architects "maze" no one could openly manifest things as opposed the instances where cobb was sharing her dream and she was changing her dream/world.
Hope this helps.
I'm confused why it still took 10 hours even though they were rushing.
Helps that the militarized projections were about as effective as a moist towelette, missing DiCaprios big head while being 2 feet away with a fully automatic rifle. : )
Cool movie though. Judging by the little suspensions in disbelief that he allowed, I didn't sweat over the details too much. Prob awake, and we'll never be told definitively.