3dsmax 2018, I am afraid Max demise will accelerate.

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OccultMonk
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OccultMonk polycounter lvl 6
The 3Ds Max 2018 release seems to have almost no new functionality and not even bug fixes. They did not upload videos to highlight new functions. The 'what's new in 3Ds Max 2018' is laughable. I had a little bit of hope with the great Nitrous performance of 2016-2017. But Autodesk seems to have laid off the entire Shanghai team who were responsible for Nitrous so bye bye :-( 

I think Autodesk made a very bad decision. I know they want 3Ds Max to die and move users to Maya.  Max could have been saved by implementing a shared code base with Maya so new featured could easily be implemented in both programs. Maybe they should have started a project to rewrite one common core for both programs, but keep the separate UI so users could retain their workflows. 

I think I will slowly have to phase out 3Ds Max over the next 5-10 years. I use 100th of shortcuts, I have written about 50.000 lines of Maxscript code to streamline and automate all sorts of modeling tasks. 3Dsmax still has such a great community support with so many awesome plugins and script. I don't think it's even a good business decision.

Does anyone have any suggestions for the best applications that are complementary to 3Ds max. Modo seems the most suited since it has meshfusion. I need a program with the same modeling tools as 3dsmax, and I would really like to configure it with the same controls/hotkeys as 3dsmax. Blender seems ok, but also very alien to me. I can't say I want to learn Maya with users leaving that program for Houdini


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  • OccultMonk
  • s1dK
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    s1dK greentooth
    Yup, nothing new in there, moving on.
  • cptSwing
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    cptSwing polycounter lvl 6
    Whew, didn't expect to be this unimpressed with the wide array of "new features" of '2018.

    http://help.autodesk.com/view/3DSMAX/2018/ENU/?guid=GUID-F687E23D-6FBA-4C8A-9202-C30F2860E5BE

    (EDIT: Okay, direct linking seems to be impossible somehow, follow the "What's New" link on the left hand menu)

  • Swordslayer
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    Swordslayer greentooth
    Blender seems ok, but also very alien to me.
    Have you tried Bforartists?
  • Klaudio2U
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    Klaudio2U polycounter lvl 3
    I can't say I want to learn Maya with users leaving that program for Houdini

     This is because of dynamics stuff and not so much because of modeling....but then there is MASH (can be used for modeling purposes too) and Bifrost seem to go in the right direction so that might also change eventually...we'll see how though. 

    As for modeling and since you are very modeling orientated i would still consider Maya, give it a try and see how it goes. You also seems to be ok with scripting so learning MEL will also be super easy which you can use to automate huge amount of stuff for modeling. 


  • OccultMonk
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    OccultMonk polycounter lvl 6
    What is the advantage of Maya over Modo for modeling? Is it easier to learn, does it resemble the 3DsMax workflow more? Maya users do not seem very content with software development either. 
  • Lt_Commander
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    Lt_Commander polycounter lvl 3
    cptSwing said:
    Whew, didn't expect to be this unimpressed with the wide array of "new features" of '2018.


     My favorite part is listing the removal of mental ray as an 'enhancement'.
  • Amsterdam Hilton Hotel
    What is the advantage of Maya over Modo for modeling?
    absolutely none
  • dongyfeng
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    dongyfeng polycounter lvl 4
    2018 UI code was rewritten in QT5, which makes me think AD is working on a cross-platform (Mac/Linux) version of Max.
  • lurked
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    lurked polycounter lvl 8
    I wouldn't be so quick to judge Max's fate based on this release.  I think the roll out of features moving forward will be slower until they've fully transitioned over to QT.   When Maya was switching over to QT, they released a version (2013 or 14, can't remember exactly) that had virtually no new features.  It was fairly bug ridden and slow until they were finished.  Stupid, I know, but based on what happened with Maya I would suggest being patient.
  • OccultMonk
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    OccultMonk polycounter lvl 6
    lurked said:
    I wouldn't be so quick to judge Max's fate based on this release.  I think the roll out of features moving forward will be slower until they've fully transitioned over to QT.   When Maya was switching over to QT, they released a version (2013 or 14, can't remember exactly) that had virtually no new features.  It was fairly bug ridden and slow until they were finished.  Stupid, I know, but based on what happened with Maya I would suggest being patient.

     Interesting, I sure hope so. But it does not really make sense. Why waste resources now creating a version for other platforms instead of making the current version stable and adding important features. 
  • Nam.Nguyen
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    Nam.Nguyen polycounter lvl 3
    Autodick said:
    • Ongoing Hi-DPI icon conversion (370 icons converted)
    I don't know why do people complaining about the new update.
     With just  $1,470/year you got 370 new shiny high definition icons.   

    Folks,  370 is like . . . . a lot.

  • Joopson
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    Joopson Polycount Sponsor
    Maya users do not seem very content with software development either. 
    The last few Maya updates have been golden. Full of super useful stuff. Since 2014, there have been bigger changes than there were between 2006 (when I first started using Maya) and 2014.

    Honestly, lately I've been very content. Along with a load of new plugins being made by some very skilled makers ( @WaYWO and @Fansub are leading the way). Honestly, I think Maya has become more formidable than ever.

    Though Modo is apparently also lovely. So if you dislike autodesk, or Maya's way of doing things, I don't think going with Modo would be a bad idea at all.

    Alternatively, stick with Max. Maybe they've got big stuff in the pipeline, and this update was more about behind-the-scenes changes.
  • Anchang-Style
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    Anchang-Style polycounter lvl 5
    Man this sucks. Always considered Max's modelling workflow to be really amazing,
    Just wished they would have slimmed down the UI at some point...but after having tried my hand on Maya recently...i have to say that that seems to be an Autodesk wide problem.
  • PolyHertz
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    PolyHertz greentooth
    So, have they fixed that overlapping UV problem that was in 2017 ?
  • monster
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    monster Polycount Sponsor
    Probably not many animators here, but Motion Path's is a pretty big deal for me.

    I've been using 2018 for a few months and I rarely open the Curve Editor. It doesn't support frozen transform, but all my rigs have dynamic parenting so I just parent constraint to an unfrozen object.

    The UI got so much work done. I just wish they had updated the layout instead of remaking it the exact same way. But docking and pullout menus make 2017 feel super old when I try to use it.

    They ditched mental ray but you can still get it free from Nvidia.
  • OccultMonk
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    OccultMonk polycounter lvl 6
    I am most worried about the laid off Nitrous Team. The viewport performance of 3Ds Max is the best of all the major packages.
  • spacefrog
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    spacefrog polycounter lvl 8
    PolyHertz said:
    So, have they fixed that overlapping UV problem that was in 2017 ?
    Just checked in the released 2018 version and it's fixed
  • OccultMonk
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    OccultMonk polycounter lvl 6
     Is 3ds max 2018 more stable than 2017? I seemed to have more crashes in 3ds Max 2017 than in 2016.
  • Swordslayer
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    Swordslayer greentooth
    @OccultMonk for me it's more stable (and another big plus is that when it crashes, it never resulted in a loss of data and there was always a recovery file ready). YMMV of course, and there's only one way to find out - if you're on maintenance and don't want to risk being stuck with the last activated version (i.e. 2018) in case you leave the plan, you might wanna try running trial for a while and see if it works for you.
  • OccultMonk
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    OccultMonk polycounter lvl 6
    I have perpetual + maintenance. I thought I could have multiple versions installed at the same time. I have bought 2016 - 2017 - 2018 with maintenance so I should always be able to keep using those versions right? If my project is not compatible with a new version I want to be able to revert back in the coming years. Please say you are not telling me that if I leave maintenance I will only be able to use one version.
  • Swordslayer
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    Swordslayer greentooth
    Well, IIRC if you ever stop paying maintenance, you're stuck with the last activated version. While paying maintenance, you can use three different max versions at the same time (while only the three latest one are covered by support, it can be any three versions you have ever activated under the maintenance). Edit: here we go:
    You may install and access eligible previous versions, as long as your contract for that product is active. Previous Version Rights terminate when the applicable contract terminates or expires for any reason. Upon contract expiration, users must cease all use of any previous version and uninstall all copies of the previous version. For perpetual licenses that are not active on a maintenance plan, license usage is determined by the  Software License Agreement. Once a subscription expires, all previously licensed, installed and accessed versions which were licensed, installed and accessed pursuant to the expired subscription are no longer eligible for use.


  • OccultMonk
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    OccultMonk polycounter lvl 6
  • gandhics
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    gandhics triangle
    There are a few reason for lack of features.
    - There were many under the hood core work was happening. Qt5 conversion, new rendering API, MCG core work, Converting Paramblock 1 -> 2, security update...
    - There was a big effort for bugfixes and stabilization.
    - Last year layoff had a big impact. They are rehiring now.

    For the future of 3dsMax.... it makes too much money to die.
    At least, you would not need to worry about the "death" of 3dsMax.
  • Tad
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    Tad polycounter lvl 10
    I really do NOT believe they are trying to "phase out" 3dsmax.  I mean, what would be the point?  
    the max usebase is GIGANTIC.  there are 3 main 3d programs  Max, Maya, and Blender.   and Blender users don't spend money, so you could (if you want) exclude them.    Houdini, Modo, Cinema,   their use bases are so small compared to max/maya that it would be such a huge effort to "phase" out max, I can't imagine even thinking about it.   

    Also people seem to forget that they JUST redid the entire UI skin for 3dsmax..    idk why no one thinks this is a big deal? 
    this is the first 3dsmax UI skin in 22 years!!    
    So i'm guessing that autodesk considered the new UI a big portion of their new features for max.
  • Bletzkarn
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    Bletzkarn triangle
    I hope max doesn't die. The thought of having to rely on 7+ programs makes me quiver. 

    Already up to 5 (3dsmax, vray, unreal, substance, zbrush)
  • Cathodeus
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    Cathodeus polycounter lvl 8
    Yes, i agree with @monster the Ui in 2018 is a game changer being hable to detach everything make me love that version. It's also really more stable than 2017.
  • gnoop
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    gnoop polycounter lvl 7
    I believe Blender is a least alien soft to Max .   Years ago I shifted from Max to Blender  gradually and it always seems closest thing to me.    I set viewport navigation and  1,2,3,4 sub-object selection same as in MAx , doubleclick for children selecting  and a few others.   But many hotkeys looked more logical in Blender from day one.    Now i have more Blender hotkeys in MAx , than vice versa .      
    Blender has same WASD navigation , same modifier idea with many actual modifiers being just twin sisters.   Similarly working bones imo.   Similarly working curve shapes.  Similar  "preserve UV"  being "correct UV".    I felt much more comfortable in Blender after Max , than in Modo, Maya,  XSI or Houdini.  

     I actually think many recent Max innovations are borrowed from Blender.    As of modelling  I just can't recall what of my modeling approaches in MAx  are impossible to do in Blender.
  • gandhics
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    gandhics triangle
    So far... you got....
    2018.1 Stingray with hundreds of fixes
    2018.2 SplineTools with more fixes

    Meanwhile..
    Maya 2018 has 0 feature after the last 2017 PU
    Maya 2018.1 released with no feature and 80 something fixes

    Hmm...
  • j_man
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    j_man null
    Hello,
    I doubt very much that Max is being killed. The move to QT5 is more likely more to do with moving to an online model than offering cross-platform support.

    J.
  • Mant1k0re
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    Mant1k0re polycounter lvl 3
    gnoop said:
     As of modelling  I just can't recall what of my modeling approaches in MAx  are impossible to do in Blender.
    Do you work with splines a lot? Unless Blender has improved a lot in this sense I wouldn't say it's impossible to do spline modeling in Blender but it's very convoluted compared to doing it in Max. Also I didn't really find a way to replicate the Max shift extrude edge workflow in Blender. Those are just two things that come to mind right off the bat.
  • poopipe
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    poopipe polycounter lvl 6
    It's not the first ui rework .  Surely I can't be the only one old enough to remember version 4. :(

    It's been "dying" since they cocked up version 5 iirc.
  • pior
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    pior ngon master
    "Also I didn't really find a way to replicate the Max shift extrude edge workflow in Blender. Those are just two things that come to mind right off the bat."

    That's the problem ... By merely looking to replicate a specific tool/feature, you'd miss out on much more powerful ways to do the same thing.


    Sure, there's no shift extrude ... but the case could be made that there is no need for it when off-hand transformation (no need to grab a manipulator) along with the very clever interaction system (no held clicks needed during transformations + click to confirm the last action) makes the whole process not only more fluid, but also objectively faster.

    This was of course way off topic, but the point here is that any discussion about what a software can or cannot do (and from there, whether it is "dying" or not) really ought to be taken with a grain of salt, since anecdotal evidence and individual user experience never really reflect the full story.
  • Br0ken
  • Sage
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    Sage polycounter lvl 13
    The closest thing to edge extrude in blender is ctrl  right click. It varies depending on what your action mouse is set up to. It works on verts, edges and faces. Maya has finally gotten a bunch of features that Max has. I thought  Max 2018 was to supposed to be bug fixes and improvements to the animations tools.
  • spacefrog
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    spacefrog polycounter lvl 8
    Br0ken said:
    I think the update itself isn't ready for download yet. At least there's nothing for me in my account
  • oglu
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    oglu polycounter lvl 8
    the Bifrost stuff looks great... even more polished than in maya... i like that...
  • spacefrog
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    spacefrog polycounter lvl 8
    Okay - now apparently 3ds Max 2018.3 update with the bifrost integration was released officially. At least it's available t from my accounts page . The Bifrost ( Maxfluids ) integration is a big thing imho ...

  • Mant1k0re
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    Mant1k0re polycounter lvl 3
    pior said:
    <snip>
    I get what you're saying Pior. And thank you for showing me this, it probably doesn't entirely cover what I have in mind though. I'm used to work the way Grant Warwick does it, with one finger of Toggle End Result On/Off to check the subdivided result vs the cage constantly as I model. Can you do this in Blender...? It doesn't seem to be possible out of the box.

    Blender is a great tool, and I use it often enough. I like that it's lightweight and never ever crashes, for one thing. But I still think Max is a better package overall for what I'm doing and I like it best!
  • pior
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    pior ngon master
    Of course it has that - and then the modifier panel even has the option to let you choose between unsubdivided cage display and smoothed cage display, which is something that not every 3d app has. It's probably one of the smoothest modelling package out there, and it's no wonder that 3d artists are more and more interested in it.

    I personally don't think that Max will disappear anytime soon, but the landscape has definitely changed (for the better).
  • Noors
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    Noors polycounter lvl 8
    I agree we see a lot more professional users using blender these days. I always felt max is a strong(est) archviz tool, that has been hijacked to do other stuff. And the archviz user base is huge. Now for game artists, freelancers, blender is a serious challenger. I dont doubt i ll learn to use it one day, if not replacing max.
  • Mant1k0re
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    Mant1k0re polycounter lvl 3
    pior said:
    Of course it has that - and then the modifier panel even has the option to let you choose between unsubdivided cage display and smoothed cage display, which is something that not every 3d app has. It's probably one of the smoothest modelling package out there, and it's no wonder that 3d artists are more and more interested in it.

    I personally don't think that Max will disappear anytime soon, but the landscape has definitely changed (for the better).
    Err, yeah I'm aware of the modifier panel option, thank you. What I'm saying is afaik it can't be hotkeyed :)
  • pior
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    pior ngon master
    It is even mapped by default : ctrl0/ctrl1/ctrl2  ...
    This sort of stuff is definitely not something that should prevent anyone from transitioning. The benefits far outweighs the downside of having to research how things work for a few weeks.
  • Mant1k0re
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    Mant1k0re polycounter lvl 3
    Yeah I knew about those too :) It's not a *toggle*, though. Anyway this is really getting off topic now... I just want to say heralding Blender as the end-all-be-all solution is not a balanced view, in my opinion. Transitioning from a package like Max that benefits from a myriad of advanced commercial scripts created over the years is not a simple matter of "researching for a few weeks".
  • Neox
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    Neox interpolator
    Mant1k0re said:
    Yeah I knew about those too :) It's not a *toggle*, though. Anyway this is really getting off topic now... I just want to say heralding Blender as the end-all-be-all solution is not a balanced view, in my opinion. Transitioning from a package like Max that benefits from a myriad of advanced commercial scripts created over the years is not a simple matter of "researching for a few weeks".
    nobody claimed that,  ut pior is one of those folks doing this transition despite his ages using max and maya

    your excuses sound more like lazyness, which is fine

    i am also too lazy to learn blender :D 

    but your toggle question sounds like something that can be scripted easil and put to a shortcut, which is how show end result toggle started out many years ago as well, i think it was part of the meshtools and later integrated into max as a shortcut
  • Axi5
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    Axi5 polycounter lvl 4
    Sorry for still continuing the derailment.

    As someone who has experience in pretty much every other 3D package. What does Blender have going for it that Max, Maya, Modo or Houdini doesn't have? I'm curious about the uptick of usage and want to know what I'm missing.

    On topic:
    Max is looking better than ever these days. I switched to other software 2 years ago, when Max doomday prophets were at their peak. I don't see as many people claiming it's demise anymore, which is good, I think the majority of the community is getting happier with the releases.

    Other software is more competitive than ever though, and Autodesk have 2 pieces of software that tend to compete more against each other, than against other packages. It's worth keeping an eye on their business practices, but I haven't seen them do anything too bad lately, besides the subscription plan.
  • thomasp
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    thomasp interpolator
    mainly workflow for me - even as a novice i can script and bend blender in ways i did never manage with max or maya, making for a very smooth way of modeling that is my own, not a bunch of cobbled together scripts i do not really understand the inner workings of (double-tap and long/short-press hotkeys, all sorts of crazy key combos possible, fully customizable selection- and navigation-behaviour, customized tool-behaviour, my choice of pie menu system).

    speed, stability, memory consumption, install size/update procedure and multi-platform availability are other advantages in my book.

    community activity is another. i don't know what happened to max in this regard but all i see these days is commercial script packages and plugins which add another layer of $$$ and version compatibility requirements. and you just know what tends to happen to 3rd party plugins and encrypted scripts after a few years when the developer loses interest.
    i'm under the impression that it used to be a lot different - either that or i'm hanging out in all the wrong places these days.


  • pior
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    pior ngon master
    Just to leave that one to rest (not going into the details about how it's done because that's besides the point and would lead to further splitting of hairs) : 



    At the end of the day there's really no point lamenting about one app going the way of the dodo or not since us users can't control that. People just need to stop obsessing over installing the latest buggy release of this or that program and start thinking about the long term more. Find something reliable, get a permanent license for it (or download it for free if it is open source) and ... that's about it, problem solved. The writing has been on the wall for close to a decade when it comes to Adobe and AD going subscription-based and pushing for pointless yearly releases anyways so there's nothing new here.

    Once one has a reliable suite of software working well for a specific set of needs it's then possible to focus on getting work done without having to worry about anything, literally for years. Software and hardware are both amazingly powerful days ...

    Of course it all falls apart when one is forced to use buggy/underperforming apps. But then it's just a matter of analyzing one's options, doing a thorough cost analysis and picking the best.

    @Axi5 : just to briefly cover that one point, one advantage (which is a major one as far as I am concerned) is fluidity. Over the years all major apps started to introduce more and more UI glitches (micro stutters, refresh issues with UI panels/ribbons/popup dialogs, and so on). It is fully quantifiable and very obvious when reviewing high framerate footage. Some users seem to not be bothered at all by that sort of stuff, but the faster one gets the more irritating this stuff becomes. Last time I checked Max/Maya/Modo/Houdini/3DCoat/Fusion360 were all riddled with such issues (Fusion probably being the worst offender, it's unbelievably bad in that regard). Personally this sort of stuff is as much if not more important than a mere feature list when picking a tool to use for hours end.
  • Br0ken
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    Br0ken vertex
    Almost all 3ds Max discussion threads instantly turns to "Just use the Blender!" :))
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