Horrible Face Sculpting | Need Help

PyrZern

I have been doing low poly, box modeling, poly pulling for a long while, and in that aspect, I'd say I'm not doing bad. I got some decent topology and shape and form.



And now I'm getting more into ZBrush. And god, sculpting a face is totally different.

I can see some shape and form for guideline when I look at a real face. But I can't do anything with it in ZBrush yet.



How do you start ? What part do you start with ?
I try to get in Glabella, eye sockets, nasal ridge, and jaw line first. But I'm not getting what I want

theslingshot

I would suggest starting with modeling a face in your favourite 3d modeling software (3ds max, maya, etc.) I think it will make you understand more about the shapes.

Just follow a basic tutorial to start with. And maybe use it as a base for more details in zBrush. I know this tutorial has been useful for me in the past. http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/head1.php

That's my opinion, let's see what others have to say

Felixb

Try to get a basemesh with proper edgeloops, eyes, mouth, nose, ears.

Something like this:

pior

I think there are two things at play here.

Obviously knowledge of facial anatomy is crucial - some things need to be really understood/studied/replicated accurately in order to make a convincing sculpted head.

Now on top of that, I hate being the guy who "blames the tool" but I personally find it very hard to make a convincing, well structured head with subtle elegant features straight within Zbrush. Things tend to warp in weird ways, the move brush grabs too much mass, and so on. Now of course many awesome artists can prove me wrong on this ; yet I did notice some re-occurring oddities across quite a few Zbrush-made busts. (on mine, and others).

I would strongly recommend you to simply export the current state of your sculpt to OBJ and keep messing with it in Mudbox. I am not here to start a tool war - I just think it would be a shame to not try another tool that could turn out to be perfect for you !

Also, if you end up staying in Zbrush, try to avoid shift-snapping to the front view at all costs. Reason is, if the head model is slightly tilted in side view (looking ever so slightly up or down), you will be tempted to adjust the features in front view so that they face the camera dead on. This would produce a very warped 3D model, with a weird look - as if the woman "looks like another person when viewed from a different angle"

Good luck

PyrZern

Update on the Sculpting

Muzzoid

I don't think topology is your problem at all.

You should slow down and actually look at your reference, proportions and angles are everything. I'd suggest working at the lowest subdivision you can at any given time, which will force you to think about the large forms.

Ultimately you have to make something that looks good, and doesn't just look good enough.

Maybe try writing a list of all the problems you see on your sculpt and try working through them. Be harsh with yourself when writing the list.

PyrZern

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Add3r

I would agree your topology is not the problem here at all. Right now you are having difficulty defining shapes with zBrush. You need to go back to the basics and do basic anatomy studies, in this case, the face. Start with small sections, instead of trying the whole picture here. Do the area around the eyes, or the mouth, etc, instead of the entire head. Its fine to use your base mesh, but you need to focus on shapes right now. You are trying to dive into the smaller shapes it seems.

Try using the Clay Buildup or Clay Tubes brush and just start defining basic anatomy shapes. Just keep practicing. The only thing we can help you with is just that, advice on where to start, you gotta do your own research and build your own mental visual library to work from. Use references, picture overlays, etc, anything you need, to get the results you desire. It will only come with time. Practice, practice, practice. Your first models will look most likely be garbage, dont let it get you down, just make sure you are pushing to improve and that is what matters.


EDIT/ADDED INFO:

As for the argument against zBrush, I would say I do no agree. What the move tool grabs is totally up to the user. Also, the move topological tool what you should be using when in your general sculpting stage, as the standard move tool grabs verts instead of an entire area.

Disclaimer, I am not a character artist, but I do use zBrush regularly and have messed with facial and other anatomy studies in my spare time, and have had success working from a dynamesh sphere and then later re-topo-ing, and other steps along the workflow. Other artists that use this method include Rafiel Grassetti (http://grassetti.wordpress.com/) and Frank Tzeng (http://franktzeng-art.blogspot.com/). Not saying these are their workflows, but I know they have used the method with solid results.

PyrZern

Working on it. And yes, I'm distracted by smaller details.

I watched a few sculpting videos, and I pick my Brushes as Clay, ClayBuildUp, Move, MoveTopology, Dam_Standard, hPolish and TrimDynamic.

Starting with sculpting nose or lips seems like a good start Thanks

Muzzoid

Watch this.

[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPX_cYkjfgk[/ame]

PyrZern

Thanks for the link Muzz !!

Dubzski

Nice reference Muzz.

pior

Also, a last piece of advice : since this is all about artistic development and not about pipeline or production, I would suggest that if you do start with a head basemesh, then take some time to fill up the eyelids/eyesockets, and close the mouth cavity (dynamesh is an easy way to do that.)

The reason why I am saying this is, you don't want to have to work around such locked landmarks while sculpting - especially for anatomy practice. Just like in that real clay video.

PyrZern

Thanks pior, I plan to. Once I figure out how to make lips without making duck face.

Trotting through the Valley of the Suck right now.

ceebee

Like Pior said. Stop trying to only match through the front through, it'll never look right. Build up a collection of reference for the same person if you can, it'll give you a good idea how the forms relate to each other and match up. Never try to match up your sculpt to one image, because every camera lens and distance of the photo makes the subjects appear different. Focus on the images, study them, and study your sculpt. Pace yourself.

And for the love of god use a different matcap like Matcap Grey or something, the Red Wax material is very deceitful.

And slow down. You're still too high subdivided, be patient and stop posting updates every hour. Don't get hung up on areas and just neglect them or try to sculpt them from your memory either, that's why you should have a good amount of reference to help you with.

You've got a lot of really sound advice in this thread, don't take it for granted and good luck.

PyrZern

I'm going back and forth between divisions. Had to go up to try to make lips.
Just realized I don't have many sideview reference.

Please ignore that ugly ear placeholder for now !

Framedworld

I've done a bunch of sculpting vids on the face, here is one that you might find of some help:

a warrior from a sphere (good way to see how to approach the upper body in a conceptual sense)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wH70X2PxrI"]Warrior Speed Sculpt part 1 - YouTube[/ame]

there are others on my channel, but I'm not pushing it or anything, but the face is a layered process. You really need to understand that its not just a face, but many many other things underneath it, that is giving it its overall shape. It might help to pop a low res skull in there to help keep volume.

arcitecht

Yeah, in zbrush, topology is rarely the problem, though I do prefer to sculpt my heads from a simple base in dynamesh.

The main thing with faces in zbrush is that it takes a LOT of practice. Both for developing familiarity with the brushes/tools, and of course for practicing the anatomy. I've sculpted a couple hundred heads and am still nowhere near as good as I'd like to be.

For your entertainment, some heads from late 2011, and some from earlier this year. LOL

PyrZern

I actually have one question for you. Right now I'm not using dynamesh, and so I run out of geo to sculpt around the lips and eyes. Should I use dynamesh ? If I do, then I will lose ability to go up and down on division. What do I do ?


Thanks

NickT3D

Start with the main chunks of the face. dont even worry about sculpting any details until you have a nice dynameshed had shape. from there start blocking in the eye sockets, and nose. I always do the mouth last and generally use an image stencil. ( I normally wok in mudbox so im unsure about how to set those up in zbrush but it can be done) using a stencil for the mouth is definitely the easiest way to get a non "duck faced" start. dont worry about divisions for now. stay below 25-50k on the head and get you shapes looking good. Keep posting updates as you go.

From this the next thing you post should be a blocked in head shape without any real defined features. get some critique make fixes and post again until a featureless head has good proportion.

Brian "Panda" Choi

You can dynamesh because you're prolly going to have to retopo later anyways.

PyrZern

Wait, by featureless face, does that mean generic face, generic nose and generic eyes and lips ?

Or you mean just bare face muscle without lips nor eyes O o'

MDj

grab some drawing books. You need to look at the head as a pile of simple geometric shapes. Only that way your brain will be able do understand relations and angles between things.
And more important - just practice! Sculpt one head a day (1-2h sesions)...next two months and results will come.

PyrZern

First time putting eye in the eye socket !

This one I started from a sphere.

Kryptikk

I know something that really helped me with sculpting heads was doing some practice studies of just certain parts. Take a 8 sided cylinder into Zbrush and just do ears. set a timer for 10min and every 10 min start a new one. have references up and work from them at all times. you will be amazed how much it helps to just do studies. Also think of things in volume not as lines Build up masses and push them back it is a push and pull work flow. Other great studies to do that will help alot are doing a skull from a sphere and also doing one that is just the planes of the face like this ref shows

DrunkShaman

You need to go back to the foundation of the arts sir, use it until you are comfy making stuff. Although you will still need the fundamentals but at that point you will know when and where.

Pardon my correction but these are my critiques, hope this helps.




Yes I just wokeup so I am kind of half a sleep while critiqing you.

Also, you dont need to go fully max sub division, you can work with the shapes and form of the face in the lower subdivisions. You have to resist the subdivisions until you are fully satisfied with the shape of current subdivision.

Or you can use Dynamesh.

PyrZern

Thanks much Nitewalkr !

TheLastOfUs

God you're bad. Like MEEE =D!

Hahaha....it's frustrating isn't it Pyr?

TheLastOfUs

God...that is bad....but we'll get there Pyr.

TheLastOfUs

I'm pretty bad at face sculpts...you seem to be doing better than me Pyr...so be happy about that.

PyrZern

Trying with a diff approach. After repeating this part over and over, I feel I can get the basic shape faster. Now I just have to get it correctly. And to move further forward.

Muzzoid

Got a microphone? If you want I'll walk you through some stuff in zbrush in a google hangout?

PyrZern

My microphone broke I haven't actually had a chance to get a replacement yet ;(
I will take you up on that offer ASAP though.

Muzzoid

Hmm we may be able to work something. Add me on skype or gtalk.

Skype search for murry lancashire, gtalk my email is muzzoid@gmail.com.

PyrZern

I will tomorrow morning. GMT-8 here, btw.

Calabi

This is the tutorial I learned how to do heads. Stage one.

http://www.3dworldmag.com/2012/03/30/step-by-step-tutorial-creature-sculpting/2/

PyrZern

Sneaked in a bit of practice after the fireworks.

Think I messed up the face area again while trying to put lips in there. Need to gather more face side-view ref.

HelloMyNamesJordan

Jump back down some sub division levels until your forms are correct. And keep looking at reference and proportions

WarrenM

Did you watch the link Calabi posted? Seriously, I got a lot of good info out of there. It lays out a bunch of stuff nice and clearly...

Lephenix

In a gnomon dvd, Scott Spencer said that "zbrush beginner's sculpts are lumpy because they jump to fast in higher subdivisions, I recommend his dvd: http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/store/product/953/introduction-to-zbrush-4

Pabs

there's a lot of tutorials out there for this, but get ready to sculpt a lot of heads.

arcitecht wrote: »

I've sculpted a couple hundred heads and am still nowhere near as good as I'd like to be.

PyrZern

Yup, I watch all videos linked here, and lots more.
I'm basically making new heads every day now. Take it as far as I can, see how I mess it up, restart a new one, rinse and repeat.

PyrZern

Of course I could be totally wrong here, but this doesn't look so bad, yet. Totally new head again. From a sphere.

Brian "Panda" Choi

Assani, good job for putting your time into this, but post an image where you haven't Dynameshed or Subdivdided this to a high resolution. I'm talking less than 10,000 triangles.

Stop working at high details. Work at low, make sure your rough forms WORK before you even CONSIDER subdividing. And no, just because you can slide up and down the subdivide bar doesn't mean it's okay to subdivide. Force yourself to work from big to small details.

GrevSev

Sculpt a few skulls to get the structure of the head burnt into your brain. (Use reference)

Then do a few heads with a basemesh (Use reference) I recommend Zbro's Base head Unless you want to make your own.

Also try sculpting individual features of the face on the sides of a single cube. Like 6 different lips, eyes or Noses using dynamesh (Use reference)

Then try to tackle a head from a sphere. Try some with and without reference.


Watch others work. Heres my 2 favorites.
ZbroZ and JMC3D

Kend

Another great resource for anatomy help is Anatomy for Sculptors. they have very detailed info and drawings on facial anatomy thats very helpful.

http://www.anatomy4sculptors.com/

PyrZern

Thanks for the help guys!! Gimme a day or two to work it !


Added:
Uploading as I go, will reply a new post when I have something decent.
This is so I know when/where I'm starting to mess up.

Pop a new sphere, dynameshed for 6k tris, got the basic head shape.
Using Ref. Not using skull this time.

PyrZern

Here we go. That's as far as I can take at this point in time without adding subdiv.

Still at 6.5k tris.



Gonna try making skulls now.

Brian "Panda" Choi

i'm confused, what is the objective of this project?

PyrZern

Still making correct face.

Steve Schulze

I find the "Asaro head" quite valuable when it comes to trying to remember how all the bits of the head fit together.


Swizzle posted a download link of a bunch of high res photos he'd taken of a Asaro Head maquette a while back.
http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76733

You'll also find any number of variations from other artists in a Google image search.

I'm actually toying with the idea of modelling one up for myself and 3d printing it.