UK urged to apologize to Alan Turing
polycounter lvl 18
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8226509.stm
Programmer John Graham-Cumming has created a petition to the UK Prime Minister urging him to issue a posthumous apology to Alan Turing who in 1952 was criminally prosecuted for being gay, ending his career and leading to his suicide.
Turing was effectively the founder of modern computer science, and played a key role in breaking Nazi Germanys ciphers during WW2 which historians believe may have shortened the war by as much as 2 years.
You have to be British to sign the petition, but expats can sign. There are 30,000 signatures so far.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/turing/
Programmer John Graham-Cumming has created a petition to the UK Prime Minister urging him to issue a posthumous apology to Alan Turing who in 1952 was criminally prosecuted for being gay, ending his career and leading to his suicide.
Turing was effectively the founder of modern computer science, and played a key role in breaking Nazi Germanys ciphers during WW2 which historians believe may have shortened the war by as much as 2 years.
You have to be British to sign the petition, but expats can sign. There are 30,000 signatures so far.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/turing/
This discussion has been closed.
Replies
It actually helps keep it from happening to people in the future, something I'm sure he wouldn't wish on anyone.
Whatever the case might be, what was done at that time was considered illegal at that time.
We have a highway that used to be 55mph. Now it is 70mph. If I got a ticket for traveling over 55mph when I was younger (knowing the law and its consequences), should a formal apology be issued me now that the limit has been increased to 70mph? Should tickets to all offenders be reimbursed, insurance companies made to relinquish profits from increased rates which resulted from the citations? Where does it end? And with what topic? Does it depend on a person's fame or contribution to society? Who is it really benefiting (Turing - deceased) or a movement? ...
then yes you would deserve an apology..
i will be the first
I'm sorry miles.. what happened to you was wrong..
lol, this is the most horrible analogy I've ever heard. This isn't some arbitrary speed limit, it's a person's life.
I'll flat out say this, "If you don't see anything wrong with the situation, you are a horrible human being." Dude had his life ruined for being gay. That's like... oh I don't know, gassing people for being jewish. Much more similar to that than to fucking speed limit changes.
Man some people.
Oh look another one!
If you think the affects of slavery are dead and gone, you're sorely mistaken, and also a horrible human being. No one wants anyone punished for slavery, they want to help remove the lasting effects that are still being felt in the population of black people in the western world.
What does this even have to do with the article? Are you suggesting that the government apologizing for this atrocious act is somehow someone getting punished? Instead of, you know, bigots apologizing for being bigots (posthumously). Governments can set tones, and until GLBT hate crimes are non existent in the UK, it can and will serve to rid the public from this bigoted viewpoint if their are laws and official policies in place that codify just how abhorrent this kind of behavior is.
*edit* I didn't even see this little *gem* at first:
What a fucking disgrace. "a movement" You sit in your little white christian bubble in the middle of bumfuck texas bible belt and have the nerve to belittle the rights of other human beings? Disgusting, and absolutely against everything that Jesus stood for, and if you were actually in touch with the message of the Bible, you'd understand that instead of being a judgmental tard-face.
Sit here and tell me in your own words what this "movement" is, and how they will benefit in your obviously nefarious scenario. OH NO, PEOPLE MIGHT GAIN EQUAL CIVIL RIGHTS, OH THE HORROR!!!!
I will say this -- it will be nice for his family. for that, I'm cool with it. buuuuuttt:
the government in place does not represent the government that prosecuted him. both bodies are now dead. there is no real apology possible because both parties do not exist anymore. this is a platitude.
I want to be clear -- I"M NOT AGAINST THIS PETITION... but not necessarily for it.. it does raise some questions. it iiiiiissssssss a little bit emotional... and perhaps a bit of a platitude? a bit after the fact... the only meaning i can find is to clarify the current government's stance. what are they going to say??
"yes, homosexuals are human beings, equal to everyone else. What happened to John Graham-Cumming was horrific and the British government would like to issue a full apology to John Graham-Cumming and his family, and we'd like to publicly state that this sort of prosecution for one's sexual orientation will never happen again."
The only reason that that could have any significance to you is if you thought it was the same government. you want an apology from an unjust body to admit it's guilt and reform it's actions -- and that's fine! but the tragedy here is that the party that you're prosecuting might not have anything to do with the party at fault. sorta a straw-man situation, isn't it?
Poop -- i love you. I know where this is going though. lets put our gloves on yes? I'm going to say this pre-empitively.
if it's in your estimation that there is a lot of work that needs to be done yet on the governments part to clarify it's stance towards homosexuality as being just and equal... then so be it. if this is symbolic of change that NEEDS to happen.. then I'd sign it to.
it could be that living here in the gayest part of all of canada (literally... davie street, vancouver), which is already an accepting country, i just lose sight of possible bigotry that might exist? really-- is the british government homophobic still?
Just throwing that out there.
Illegal or not this was a horrible thing to do and it wouldn't hurt the government to apologise, just as they have to all the victims of shell shock who were shot for cowardice.
Also, AFAIK any petition that receives over 10k signatures requires a formal response from the PM.
It doesn't matter if the government is homophobic (it is, same sex marriage gets a different name, for no good reason other than to appease religious people who think they own the legal contract) the UK as a whole is still homophobic, so is Canada, and so is the US. One town of SF or Montreal or London doesn't fix the whole country. Yes a person can move there once they're 20 and if they have a skill that will support them in an expensive city, and they have the chutzpah to relocate and start over, but they all had to grow up in the middle of nowhere, and for every one of them, there are 10 more that can't move to NYC or Cologne, or Sydney, and have to face the bigotry of the smaller towns.
You honestly can't know what it's like without having experienced it. Just having to wonder if you can say "my husband" in casual conversation the same way any one of you wouldn't even think twice about dropping "my wife" without worrying what other people will think. And that's at the mild end, there are still people being shot, killed, or beaten up, sometimes even by the police. So yes, it's very very needed.
The important difference is that one law was based on a faulty understanding of highway safety, while the other was based on a faulty understanding of basic human morality. The intent of the two laws was also quite different; one was designed with the intent of minimizing traffic accidents, while the other was designed with the intent of persecuting a specific segment of the population. This is the distinction between a merely bad law, and an immoral one, and we need to be constantly vigilant about protecting ourselves and promoting awareness of the latter, so it doesn't happen again. Hence the need for symbolic apologies of this kind. It isn't just for show - it really matters.
What he said. Sometimes it's hard to be eloquent when debating your own basic human rights from the people in privilege not understanding what the big deal is.
Woah!, so you have me labelled from just that little statement, so what one am I?
As it happens I dont agree with the way he was treated and believe it was a tragedy. The same with slavery.
A little while ago the government was asked to apologise for slavery the same as this.
Apologising for these things now intonates some kind of guilt in the current population. Guilt is a form of self punishment. I have felt my own guilt with these things that were done, that how could I be part of this ugly population which did such horrible things, that I am responsible somehow.
But I am not. The people then were. It was not just the governments fault. Companies, persons, and everyone who turned a blind eye, at the time were responsible.
What the government could do is say they regret what happened in the past and are doing there best not to repeat, and learn from it, but they cannot apologise because those that are responsible are not here to do so.
And anyway an apology would just be part of those political games politicians like to play, appear to be full of humility and say what the public want whilst not giving a damn(especially this government).
At least we can all agree on this. However it can and would have beneficial side affects despite their (slimy) intentions.
You can't just label slavery as gone because the people who literally owned slaves are dead, and no one is literally a slave now. The entire system in the US and the UK is designed from top to bottom to benefit the white heterosexual male, and to imply that either country is a meritocracy and should move on from any kind of reparations is laughably naive.
Judging from your comment, you're white, male, from a family living above the poverty line, and you feel somehow that reparations aren't needed and that everything is a level playing ground, and that black people should just move on. I'll also go out on a limb and say you've never faced a day of persecution or obstacles because of how you were born.
Do you think that the people who were alive and in charge during slavery were somehow radically different people than the current population? I'll give you a hint, the answer is no. Everyone alive has the same evil inside them that let the Nazi's dehuminize the Jews, white's to own slaves, Americans to jail their own population at the same percentage of the gulags of USSR, while destroying the lives and countries of the middle-east. All it takes is for a group to be convinced there is an "other" that is somehow inferior to "us". And by trying to say that the affects of slavery are long gone and that no reparations are needed, is falling into the exact same pattern that allowed these past evils.
What can I say? the internet is full of a lot of awful human beings. And I'm an American, so I'm allowed to be filled with spite for my fellow man. It's the American way.
I thought Europeans were supposed to be all nice and cheery. Must be all that pot they smoke.
You can, of course work to help people who are currently persecuted.
i made this thread as a heads up to anyone in the UK to the issue as they can do something about it.. personally i would just love to see Alan Turing in the history books for the hero that he was and his contributions well known, not someone swept under the rug because he was gay, or because the UK is ashamed of its past behavior and hopes it all blows over.. i did not mean for it to be a huge discussion on equal rights..
i know you have personal feelings attached to the issue Ben, but calling people horrible human beings is not only false, but doesn't help your cause one bit.. i don't believe anyone who disagrees with this is a horrible human human being.. maybe uneducated, maybe separated from gay issues, maybe they have no gay friends, or maybe they don't care.. in my book it doesn't make them bad people.. just uninformed or unexposed to the issue. if you really want people to see your point of view it helps to not insult them, if you refuse to see things other than the one way you have decided is the ultimate perfect way you do nothing whatsoever so solve the problem and only give fuel to the other side..
i mean look at me, i was raised in the south and poops one of my best friends....
there is hope for anyone
I do not know what the black people should do its up to them. Maybe they should punch those they feel wronged from.
Your right exactly, you cannot tell people not to be racist or homophobic, they will think what they think. What you can do though is make it socially unnacceptable(or illegal) to express their feelings outwardly.
What sort of reparations are acceptable though?
wow
Plus people who say that the current government shouldnt have to apologize becasue it wasnt them need to understand its not about that, its about getting recognition for a terrible event which I bet noone here knew about before this thread.
all in, or none.
you took that way out of context, he was refering to the fact anyone could become an evil person, not all people are evil.
[ame]
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So just because all people have the "potential to be evil" means they should be forced to pay reparations for something they took no part in?
This shit has derailed.
The sooner, the better...
no, read my post- people should be aware of what happened (and how far we have come in comparison to the 1950's) as i bet noone here knew what happened to him.
er ... how much?
There are a great many wrongs that have been committed throughout history and everyone has their views and opinions and it's great that we can state them here and argue about them and what not but that wasn't the point of this thread.
The point was to show that hey some people want to make a difference for this one man and his family (if he has any left) to say hey we were wrong and you were a very important person in our history.
Don't let this turn into a talk about slavery and all the other stuff and become a huge fight and make us lock this thread.
Now play nice.
/talk peacefully on
shitty thing. would've been interesting to see how technology would have turned out if he would still be around.
Did Rosa Parks commit suicide when she was persecuted? How does giving up help anyone else that has been through the same persecution? It only helps yourself escape it.
I feel for anyone that has been shit on, but really, how many people havent? To say that "my discrimination matters more than yours!!" Is terrible ignorance. Saying that no one else has been shit on like you have or that no one will ever understand you because you had it 'hard' just makes you a crybaby.
Grow up and realize that more than gay and black people have see discrimination and hard times.
Using your Rosa Parks example, it would be like bleaching her skin and telling her being black is an illness. Is she still a coward when she's had enough of that?
so in your eyes me discriminating you by buying everyone else a coke and not you because of your hair length is exactly the same as being bullied into taking your own life because of your sexuality?
With that said, everyone's responses have been interesting and this thread is still pretty well positively charged. However if you want to continue posting in this thread, and Polycount in general, read on.
If I can make one request, one that if isn't followed I will ask the mod's to close the thread, is that we keep the prejudice replies out of this thread. There's no sense in guessing one personal specifics (location, race, religious beliefs, sexual preference and so on) when whats in question is their opinion on the subject matter. If the replies are within context of the opinion and the topic at hand, thats fine, but we're not here to have an open discussion about our members' personal specifics and whether or not its effecting their judgment. Especially when its done so in a belittling undertone.
So please, keep it civil*
*Famous last words.
If you dont follow than it's likely you're fortunate enough to have not been discriminated against or have experienced hardship to any serious degree so far in your life. You know as well as anyone else that not getting a soda based on hair length is a ridiculous comparison.
Of course, ironically I have been harassed quite a bit for having long hair, it was (back in high school) usually to the tune of handcuffed and background checked for no reason while "loitering," being accused of smoking pot or being a pot head (which I've never used or been fond of), etc.
But that's nothing in the big scheme of things either; I'm almost sorry that the only prejudice you've seen has been racial and sexually charged, it usually ends up making for a stronger person to have to go through or even witness more.