SandBag when you said that discrimination is all the same (my discrimination matters more than yours!!" Is terrible ignorance) you must realise there is a difference to being harassed over long hair and getting to the point in life where you dont care wheather you live nor die.
Now I had long hair for a very long time and I got shouts and things thrown at me (occasionally spat at) and was shoved about but I was the bigger man about it and shot them (Im joking about the last part).
For him to kill himself for being ashamed of who he is makes my "discrimination" pale in comparision
I acknowledged the difference, expressly. I dont think it's appropriate to get into some kind of sick pissing contest over terrible things that have happened to me vs others, but I expressly said that such things pale in comparison to greater transgressions that happen to more than just gay and black people.
I think it's very narrow sighted and very egocentric to think otherwise. Every kind of person can experience persecution and it does not take suicide to highlight that fact.
Tto me suicide is giving up, plain and simple, and I dont think giving up should be respected. The people that are left behind when someone commits suicide often go through as much grief or more than that single person did. When they call it quits it's over for them, but the people that love and care about them live on with the grief that it causes forever.
Tto me suicide is giving up, plain and simple, and I dont think giving up should be respected. The people that are left behind when someone commits suicide often go through as much grief or more than that single person did. When they call it quits it's over for them, but the people that love and care about them live on with the grief that it causes forever.
Until your in a position when you want to kill your self, never EVER say suicide is giving up. I knew of a kid who committed suicide after being bullied at school, would tell his parents he gave up and he shouldn't be respected?
chrizz1 and sandbag, would you guys mind continuing this off-topic chatter (thats really now happening amongst the 2 of you) to IM's.
Actually, it doesn't matter if you mind. If either of you continue the discussion here in this thread will step over the Warnings and dish out a couple infractions. And if it happens after that, we'll have to give you both 5 day vacations.
Alan Turing was given experimental chemical castration as a "treatment" and his security privileges were removed, meaning he could not continue work for the UK Government Communications Headquarters
Turing was given a choice between imprisonment or probation conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonaltreatment designed to reduce libido. He accepted chemical castration via oestrogen hormone injections,[33] which lasted for a year. One of the known side effects of these hormone injections was the development of breasts, known as gynecomastia, something which plagued Turing for the rest of his life.
That reallly sucks.. imagine helping to save your country from Nazi Germany and your own government awards you by giving you breasts.. goddamn.
Here's hoping this goes through so that this kind of thing doesn't happen again.
We're gonna pay hard for this shit guys... but for now weeeeeee!
Seriously though, I'm of the belief that poverty is all a state of mind (been there). I understand that in order to succeed, you need to beleive you can. A lot of minority groups were deprived this for a long time, but seriously, it's time to get beyond this BS, there's other shit to worry about right now. One of the things grabbing this country by the balls is that we're too worried about who a person is, whether they're gay, straight, black, or white, republican (EVIL), democrat (that's cool). We're all biased to some degree and we're so wrapped up in labeling people that everything's falling apart as we can tell looking at this thread.
In the end who cares, feeling bad for yourself isn't going to help you make it. Grit your teeth, work your ass off, and maybe, just maybe, you can pull ahead of the black lesbain women who have been dominating this game art field for so long. Just kidding.
Whats funny is I knew about Turing. I knew who he was and what he contributed to computing science.
I did not, until this thread, know that he was gay, or that he was persecuted, or that he committed suicide. I just saw him as another important Comp Scientist reverently referenced in the technical stuff I so often read.
i made this thread as a heads up to anyone in the UK to the issue as they can do something about it.. personally i would just love to see Alan Turing in the history books for the hero that he was and his contributions well known, not someone swept under the rug because he was gay, or because the UK is ashamed of its past behavior and hopes it all blows over.. i did not mean for it to be a huge discussion on equal rights..
i know you have personal feelings attached to the issue Ben, but calling people horrible human beings is not only false, but doesn't help your cause one bit.. i don't believe anyone who disagrees with this is a horrible human human being.. maybe uneducated, maybe separated from gay issues, maybe they have no gay friends, or maybe they don't care.. in my book it doesn't make them bad people.. just uninformed or unexposed to the issue. if you really want people to see your point of view it helps to not insult them, if you refuse to see things other than the one way you have decided is the ultimate perfect way you do nothing whatsoever so solve the problem and only give fuel to the other side..
i mean look at me, i was raised in the south and poops one of my best friends....
there is hope for anyone
Sorry, this isn't a discussion over who likes ice cream and what flavor is best. It's a discussion that covers human lives. As has been pointed out in the thread, the guy underwent chemical castration after doing possibly the most that a single person did to end the war, and was so utterly destroyed he commited suicide.
People who deny equal human rights to one another *are* horrible human beings. I am not going to use silk gloves and calmly explain to someone why it's not ok to own human slaves, rape a child, or any other type of despicable behavior, and I'm not morally required to either. This kind of shit should be mocked and the people holding these views ostracized till they either drop it, or relegate themselves to some backwater town with no influence to stew in their own juices.
It's not even about an "ultimate perfect view" it's about making damn sure that people's lives aren't ruined by society's prejudices, which is exactly what happend to Turing, and there is literally zero room for argument. No one is debating the finer points of what this potential apology will cause, they're basically whining about a situation they don't want to be confronted with because it makes them uncomfortable. Tough shit.
In my book it does make them bad people. Who's book is more relevant? The guy who doesn't understand anything about the situation and won't be affected in any way whether they apologize or not, or the person who has literally lived through a small iota of what Turing did?
*calmchat*
The way history looks back on certain people can dictate current and future tone towards not only that person, but people from the same demographic as them. A good example relevant to this story is Claus Stauffenberg (the german that Valkyrie was based off of). The way he is remembered in history has an affect on how many people think of Germans. If you make sure that history books are accurate, and public opinion informed about what went on, it can serve as an inspiration and cultural weathervane for the future.
There are certainly few enough gay icons to look up to as what you can aspire to become, and by making a narrative that celebrates Turing as not only a hero, but someone who was wrongly persecuted by the British government, it can give gay youth in the UK and the rest of the world a positive role model to look to and emulate.
You sit in your little white christian bubble in the middle of bumfuck texas bible belt and have the nerve to belittle the rights of other human beings?
Judging from your comment, you're white, male, from a family living above the poverty line, and you feel somehow that reparations aren't needed and that everything is a level playing ground, and that black people should just move on. I'll also go out on a limb and say you've never faced a day of persecution or obstacles because of how you were born.
Not really. I don't see my remarks as comparable to how society treats gay people, in the past and the present. It's a pretty crappy comparison actually. I'll tone down the direct insults though.
I'm not pissed off, I'm just tired of stuff like this getting to fly without being challenged. Especially in the games industry.
*whoooooooooosh*, There goes my point. Right over your head.
It's hard to read someone speak so passionately about bigotry and prejudice remarks when they themselves are being prejudice. I was going to post this earlier based on some of your replies in this thread (and another, I believe) but it was reading you speak about prejudice behaviour that had me finally do it.
I want you to continue with writing about how you're feeling. But when you're contradicting your feelings against your choice of expression, its hard to follow.
Um, no, I got it entirely, it wasn't exactly subtle. Quote three of my posts that are supposed to somehow be contradictory or ironic in context.
So, just to completely lay it out for you:
Chemically castrating and destroying the career of a genius war hero because he's gay? Prejudice.
Mocking A) a white christian male who lives in texas for calling equal human rights "a movement" and a white guy for not understanding the issues of slavery. Not prejudice. Possibly douchey, but not prejudiced.
chrizz1 and sandbag, would you guys mind continuing this off-topic chatter (thats really now happening amongst the 2 of you) to IM's.
Actually, it doesn't matter if you mind. If either of you continue the discussion here in this thread will step over the Warnings and dish out a couple infractions. And if it happens after that, we'll have to give you both 5 day vacations.
This is so pointless. He made his decisions in life, and he chose to do that which was illegal. He actions after that were his own choosing as well. He is now dead, and now a movement is trying to forcefully regurgitate this for their own purposes.
People commit suicide for a laundry-list of reasons, none of them which are valid. I have a relative of mine that committed suicide, because he thought it was the only way out, though it truly was not the only way out.
Jonathan - I'm pretty sure that you don't choose to be gay.
That is fine if you believe that, but I disagree, and believe it is a choice. Some people may be more prone to it, but it is still a choice. Please no flames here people, just stating what I believe.
That is fine if you believe that, but I disagree, and believe it is a choice. Some people may be more prone to it, but it is still a choice. Please no flames here people, just stating what I believe.
That's fine if you believe this, but other people will know you're a bigot. You may not like that label, but it was your choice to become a bigot.
who in 1952 was criminally prosecuted for being gay
If I was resident I'd sign it.
Imagine you're Christian in a time where being so wasn't such a good idea. There is nothing wrong with your faith, but for some reason there is a law against it. You believe with all your heart in your faith, but live in fear that one day something will happen to you because of it. So you hide it from friends and family because they might out you. You love the work you do as a geneticist, you love the fact that one day it will help millions of people the world over.
So during the course of your double-life you created the cure for I dunno... AIDS, Cancer and Downs Syndrome. The freakin' world believes you to be a hero. Then, some asshole posts in the paper "So-And-So is Christian!!". Bam!! Police show up and take you away.
You do not hide the fact that you are Christian. You are proud of it. There is nothing morally, or socially wrong with it. The people that have the problem are the "closed-minded" individuals in power with their archaic and draconian ways. You believe that because you saved countless of lives, and you are a genuinely kind-hearted person, they will come to reason and the whole debacle will be over in a day or so. You can go home and pray with your family in peace. Take them to church on Sunday and be happy.
This is not the case. Your family is scared they will never see their dad again. All the work you have done is stripped away and your name is synonymous with shit. Who cares what you did for their wives, daughters, sons, fathers and brothers. We care about who you are, and that crazy thing you do on Sunday called "worshiping". Guilty of being Christian. Two choices lay in front of you: Convert to Flying-Spaghettism or go to jail for the rest of you life. You choose your freedom, so you worship the Spaghetti Monster. You can't find work doing what you love. You become depressed. You can't be who you are without some kind of retaliation or threat of death. Why is there a reason to live?
So you kill yourself way ahead of your time. A Genius that could have a lot more to give and could have changed the world even more.
60 years later the government says "Wow. We did fuck up.". It's not for that person, it's for the family, the descendants, other Christians and rights of anyone of any faith the world over.
Sorry that was long but... history is riddled with similar stories. I only hope it makes sense.
@Reparations - It makes me laugh. Really hard. That's another topic on another day.
People may think that, but I'm not hating anyone. If anything, I think it's been shown quite a bit that those who label people bigots most often are they themselves bigots.
I think you got that wrong, You might be confusing for the study that shows the more homophobic a person is, the more likely they are to have same-sex attractions.
People can we drop it? this man was punished for something he couldnt help and fuck sake of course people cant just swap sexuality, i cant suddenly start getting boners over men just because I want to. It is totally unfair to judge this man and its a disgrace that the thread has got like this, we owe this man a huge amount for what he has done lets not forget that fact.
Wow this thread has turned from what it set out to intitially bring to light about a petition for a great man, into a thread of how many people Poopinmymouth can hate:P Ben, I realize you are pationate about your beliefs as are many of us on polycount. But do we really need to belittle and bash others for there beliefs? This is a modeling forum for gods sake!:), I am a US citizen ( yes ben I suck:P..long live USA!!! ) but if I was able to I would sign the petition.
Ben: It's great to have you back in the forum, but now that you've discovered a place to feel more at ease, you can't just come back and tell everyone else that they need to suddenly come to the same level of understanding about the subject of homosexuality as you have.
You'll damage yourself. Try to remember that the strongest person in the room is often the quietest, being right doesn't change anything, and brow beating morons to change their opinions only reinforces their belief in them.
Knowing a truth is a great freedom, shouting it out at the world only transforms us into the role of the fool from the parable of the Emperor's New Clothes.
I try to remember that this is an art forum, ie we are all social retards... all of us. We do better here when we're all talking about things we grouply understand and are interested in that relate to the art and the things that inspire us to make it.
Um, no, I got it entirely, it wasn't exactly subtle. Quote three of my posts that are supposed to somehow be contradictory or ironic in context.
So, just to completely lay it out for you:
Chemically castrating and destroying the career of a genius war hero because he's gay? Prejudice.
Mocking A) a white christian male who lives in texas for calling equal human rights "a movement" and a white guy for not understanding the issues of slavery. Not prejudice. Possibly douchey, but not prejudiced.
Now tell me how they are similar.
I cannot understand how you can take any previous statements to mean that. I understand perfectly these things. Just because they are against these actions now does not mean they are prejudiced against those groups(or a douche).
Whilst these actions in the past were extremely horrible(to say the least) we just cannot make up for them, its too late. The past is gone, done is done. Those responsible and their victims are gone. What matters now is people's actions towards those people's now.
That is fine if you believe that, but I disagree, and believe it is a choice. Some people may be more prone to it, but it is still a choice. Please no flames here people, just stating what I believe.
what the hell? So did you choose to be attracted to women? Was that your decision? I know quite a few gay people and they definitely couldn't help it, it's just what they are.
Could you choose to be gay if being attracted to women was illegal suddenly?
yea this should be locked...
The petition has been vastly overshadowed by various opposing arguments and has now been transformed into this ultimately fruitless flame war.
Come on guys...we are better than this BS.
People are what they are and the best of luck to everyone.
I also think danr is right (8 pages ago), apologize to everyone that was wronged under the law while it was still around. One of the side effects of working in government is that you speak for the government, not only in the present but also in the past and future. It's not always about getting your moat cleaned or cheating on your mistress.
I think a lot of people have already honored his legacy and career in a lot of ways that have been highly successful. I think his scientific contributions far outweigh his death and his death outweighs future contributions that will go unmade. Tragic yes, but we should be thankful for what he was able to give us. If sense can be given to his senseless death then maybe that isn't a bad thing. Maybe he would like that?
Maybe if he wasn't pushed over the edge, a bunch of gay hating bigots could have summer condo's on the moon? But no they had to go and pick on the gay guy and give him tits.
Why don't I have a jet pack? Where is my flying car? I think reparations need to be made to me for all the advancements I've missed out on because of their costly mistake.
Personally I think paid reparations are BS. Apologies on the other hand, cost nothing but are worth so much.
It's really easy for people to discuss this as some kind of ephemeral thing that can be debated calmly, and everyone can have their opinion, and none are better than the other, and all agree to disagree, blah blah. Really easy if you don't suffer under the current system that is.
I'm an American citizen. I'm legally married in the eyes of Iceland, Canada, Germany, Sweden, on and on, but NOT the country of my birth. And since my husband is not a US citizen, and the US has the Defense of Marriage act, I cannot come to the country of my birth to live and work unless I do so alone with an ocean separating me and my loved one.
That fucking sucks, and it's not something where there are nuances that need to be considered. Descrimination is wrong, there is no room for debate, sorry. It will cause some upset, but it really doesn't matter. We're not debating people's comfort level on the internet of being confronted with things that they find offensive, we're discussing children's ability to grow up to the best of their abilities, for adults to live with their loved ones in their home country, and for the elderly to make life choices for their life-long spouse and leave them their worldly posessions and with custody of their children.
So yes. We do need to belittle and bash people who believe that being gay is a choice and that it is ok to descriminate based on sexual orientation. These people are bigots, and it doesn't matter if that makes anyone uncomfortable, because they need to be made uncomfortable until the situation doesn't exist anymore.
You can label me as full of hate for America, and you can wonder why I won't just pipe down and be quiet as things slowly inch forward a millimeter at a time, but it's really easy to do in your positions, and you'll have to forgive me if I completely ignore your advice, even though I know it's well intentioned.
And to bring it back to the original article: Descrimination based on sexuality still occurs in the UK both at the legal and cultural level, and by issuing a public apology, it will have some small affect on both. No one honestly thinks that Turing himself needs or would benefit from this, it's symbolic, just like offering tax breaks for bicyclists or correcting misinformation in history books.
I'm an American citizen. I'm legally married in the eyes of Iceland, Canada, Germany, Sweden, on and on, but NOT the country of my birth. And since my husband is not a US citizen, and the US has the Defense of Marriage act, I cannot come to the country of my birth to live and work unless I do so alone with an ocean separating me and my loved one.
That fucking sucks, and it's not something where there are nuances that need to be considered.
Wait hold on DOMA keeps your husband out of the US? How? Or is it because he doesn't have the required visa? That's not really DOMA's fault and while I agree that DOMA was a big pile of crap, it basically left it up to the states to decide. The US is still divided on the issue to the point that the federal government can't force all states to go along one way or the other. It certainly does NOT keep people from entering the country based on sexual orientation.
It was pretty much the green light to pursue it on the state level. Ever since then the push has been on state governments to recognize same sex couples.
You may hate how slow the process is going but lets not be retarded and not recognize the progress that's been made just because it isn't happening overnight with the snap of your fingers. Forcing people to change against their will is just as bad. You might have been out of touch on the local level since you've been out of the country but honestly there are some good things happening in a lot of places.
The Defense of Marriage Act prevents states from extending Federal benefits to same sex spouses. This includes foreigner visas. If I married a female Icelander in Iceland, she could come live and work in the US with me. Even if I move to Massachussetts, Agust cannot legally live and work there. He could come for 3 months, not work, and then would have to leave. And no state can change that till DoMA is repealed.
Trust me, I'm informed on this issue.
And no, forcing people to change is not just as bad. That's what the supreme court did with desegregation. You don't make people suffer for real, so that bigots and religious zealots don't get their feelings hurt. Despite what the Supreme court currently thinks about it, the constitution and bill of rights supports equal rights for same sex partners, and it needs to be ruled on yesterday accordingly.
I'm putting myself out there and making this personal in the hopes that people have to be confronted with the affects that forcing their beliefs actually have on other people. Your stupid petty beliefs have no basis in the rule of law, and I won't give even an iota of credence or weight to how you feel about it, because you're unequivacably wrong in every way.
This is so pointless. He made his decisions in life, and he chose to do that which was illegal. He actions after that were his own choosing as well. He is now dead, and now a movement is trying to forcefully regurgitate this for their own purposes.
I am opposed to entitlements in the form of taking from someone to give to someone else if those alive today had nothing to do with the past.
But there are three basic entitlements all humans deserve. People have a right to their life, their liberty, and their pursuit of happiness. Unless someone is physically denying another individual of those basic rights, they can engage in any life style they wish. Whether being gay or not is a choice is irrelevant.
It is hypocritical to be a defender of freedom and the constitution while wanting to limit someone elses freedoms. A more noble cause for conservatives would be to pursue getting the state out of marriage altogether. Including heterosexual marriages and turn marriage back into strictly a religious institution. The only reason the state got involved was for health insurance reasons.
If marriage was strictly a religious function, then you as an individual can choose to be a part of whatever church you want. If homosexual marriages are being done at your church. Then just move to another church if you disagree.
I agree with conservatives when it comes to less government = better. That democracy is wrong and we should be a republic again. But it always amazes me how conservatives want these things while wanting more government intrusion in the bedroom.
I watched Milk the other day. Opened my eyes a little bit.
TBH I believe in live-and-let-live, if it isn't directly harming or hurting anyone that isn't involved (and no, "those faggots are against god/are degenerate animals/eat children" doesn't really count).
The main thing isn't whether the apology should be issued, or what the politicians will gain from doing so or not doing so, or whether it's even the goverments position to do so in the first place. The main thing is to remind people that this happened, and to make sure that it will never happen again.
I think the saddest thing about this whole issue is that, if Brown does make a formal apology on behalf of the government, is the assumption that it will inspire British (and other) people to accept others, strive to be better people and to live more tolerant lives.
Unfortunately, this (important) issue will slide neatly off the collective conscience of most British people, end up as a sidebar on the BBC's news site and things will continue their decline like they have with everything else in the UK. It's not just homophobia that's a problem here - there's no decency, no consideration and, probably most importantly, no law and no justice.
Brown's total lack of professional credibility makes it even harder to imagine that this (if it even goes ahead) will achieve much, despite the issue's importance. A real shame.
The Defense of Marriage Act prevents states from extending Federal benefits to same sex spouses. This includes foreigner visas. If I married a female Icelander in Iceland, she could come live and work in the US with me. Even if I move to Massachussetts, Agust cannot legally live and work there. He could come for 3 months, not work, and then would have to leave. And no state can change that till DoMA is repealed.
Trust me, I'm informed on this issue.
This I'll go along with, hopefully there are other loop holes that can be found if you guys really want to come to the US. Now might not be the right time, but hopefully in the near future he will be able to enter the way you want. Honestly I wouldn't move to the US if I was in your situation based on pure economics. The US is long from pulling out of the rescission.
And no, forcing people to change is not just as bad. That's what the supreme court did with desegregation. You don't make people suffer for real, so that bigots and religious zealots don't get their feelings hurt. Despite what the Supreme court currently thinks about it, the constitution and bill of rights supports equal rights for same sex partners, and it needs to be ruled on yesterday accordingly.
The forced change you talk about was the will of the many being forced on the few. Which like it or hate it is how government works. It might not always move in your direction but that's how it moves.
Right now the majority of the US is opposed to same sex marriage. If you want the will of the people to be carried out it would be an all out ban. Instead we have little pockets of hope here and there. It would be awesome if it happened over night but its not going to.
You change the laws by changing the people.
You don't change people by changing the laws.
Change the laws without changing the people just forces the discrimination underground.
You don't change people by shouting them down.
I believe in what you're standing for, I just don't think change happens over night. I also think the more you get in someones face about an issue the more entrenched that person will become. Rail all you want just know that it might do more harm than good.
I'm confused...What is stopping your husband from getting a job and his own visa Ben? As far as I know they dont ask your sexual orientation upon entering the country or applying for a visa.
I understand that getting a work visa isn't the easiest task (for anyone, regardless of sexual orientation) but it's certainly possible as many people seem to have success with it.
If you say you cant go back unless they recognize your marriage then what about states that allow gay marriage? Do you simply have to renew your marriage license stateside? Forgive me for not knowing the finer details, but am I to believe that the gay-marriage-welcome states allow "title only" marriage, with no benefit sharing? (not sure what the point is then?)
Would a suitable alternative be to both have jobs that provide the benefits you require while peacefully and proactively working to make life better for homosexuals in the US?
This I'll go along with, hopefully there are other loop holes that can be found if you guys really want to come to the US. Now might not be the right time, but hopefully in the near future he will be able to enter the way you want. Honestly I wouldn't move to the US if I was in your situation based on pure economics. The US is long from pulling out of the rescission and even if the laws do get changed there still be large areas that will be unfriendly for long times to come.
The forced change you talk about was the will of the many being forced on the few. Which like it or hate it is how government works. For many years it worked in the opposite fashion like it is now. Gov carries out the wishes of the majority. You change the laws by changing the people. You don't change people by changing the laws. Change the laws without changing the people the discrimination just goes underground.
Right now the majority of the US is opposed to same sex marriage. If you want the will of the people to be carried out it would be an all out ban. Instead we have little pockets of hope here and there. It would be awesome if it happened over night but its not going to.
I say let the bigot states band together if they so choose. For those that choose to open their doors they should have access to federal benefits. Until that happens its a state by state debate with only state benefits granted.
I believe in what you're standing for, I just don't think change happens over night and I'm a little offended when you gloss over the change that has already happened like its nothing.
You are so, so wrong.
The US constitutionally protects minorities from majorities. The majority wanted segregation till the supreme court forced it by law. Even if it weren't how the country works (and it is) it's morally despicable to claim I have to convince bigots they are wrong before I can live my own life and pursue happiness.
I literally can't understand how you can be so wrong. How the flying FUCK can same-sex marriage discriminate against straight people? Unbelievable. Let the bigot states band together? Sure that's great for all their eventual GLBT children that have to suffer through their idiocy.
And I don't worry about loopholes, I'm not coming back to the US again willingly. The second I have my Icelandic citizenship, I'm dropping my American citizenship.
Thomas Jefferson:
3. The protection provided by this principle applies fundamentally, of course, in favor of a minority of one: The Individual. No majority, however great even all of the people but one Individual--may properly infringe, or possess the power to infringe, the rights of any minority, however small--even a minority of a lone Individual.
I'm confused...What is stopping your husband from getting a job and his own visa Ben? As far as I know they dont ask your sexual orientation upon entering the country or applying for a visa.
I understand that getting a work visa isn't the easiest task (for anyone, regardless of sexual orientation) but it's certainly possible as many people seem to have success with it.
If you say you cant go back unless they recognize your marriage then what about states that allow gay marriage? Do you simply have to renew your marriage license stateside? Forgive me for not knowing the finer details, but am I to believe that the gay-marriage-welcome states allow "title only" marriage, with no benefit sharing? (not sure what the point is then?)
Would a suitable alternative be to both have jobs that provide the benefits you require while peacefully and proactively working to make life better for homosexuals in the US?
You realize that's not equal rights, if I marry a woman and she can come and just lay around my house or work as a janitor and never worry about legalities of visas? Visas are not easy to get in the US, they're expensive, and should be unnecessary in this case. It's not relevant though because neither of us want to live there. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the law.
States that allow same sex marriage are forbidden from offering federal benefits by DOMA and one federal benefit is living/working rights for foreign spouses. Every one of the 50 states could legalize same sex marriage, and without the repeal of DOMA it won't matter for American/foreigner same-sex marriages.
My suitable alternative is to live in a country with equal rights for all it's citizens and not contribute to a government that I so fundamentally disagree with. (and gay rights are the least of my beefs with the US government)
I guess I've never understood why marriage allowed a 'free pass' to citizenship when it's so hard for everyone else. When there are so many loveless marriages it's hard for me to see the fairness in that.
It also kind of kills your point about how bad it is to be barred from the place of your birth if you think that place sucks and you never want to go back.
Even as black-and-white as I tend to see things you really just cant expect the world to flip on and off like a light switch to bend to your demands, no matter how right or just those demands are. Sometimes you have to be more realistic, work with what you have, and then work to make life better for yourself and for others. Believe me, I'm all about fighting for your beliefs, but if you want to take that stance you actually have to stand up and do something with it.
Does giving up on the US help anyone else that might want to follow the same path you describe? If you're really that passionate about the issue why not come back and do something about it? Something with more weight than yelling at a bunch of artists on the internets.
The US constitutionally protects minorities from majorities. The majority wanted segregation till the supreme court forced it by law. Even if it weren't how the country works (and it is) it's morally despicable to claim I have to convince bigots they are wrong before I can live my own life and pursue happiness.
In its modern interpretation that's how it works, in theory. How sweet it would be if we lived in Jefferson's dream world.
In practicality laws get passed all the time based on general consensus or majority vote. Those laws at some point will tread on the rights of a few people.
You live in an open society because someone already took the time to change the people. It might not have taken as much convincing or even an angry argument but someone put in the work.
Even if the law was changed and the people where not you would legally have the right, but the pursuit of happiness wouldn't follow without change to the people. The change to the law isn't a bigot-be-gone wand that gets waved. If you want the law changed great, but to be a truly open society the people have to change. I can't hold it against you for not wanting to shout down bigots your entire life and seeking a better life some place else. But really if everyone did that, then DOMA wins.
Let the bigot states band together? Sure that's great for all their eventual GLBT children that have to suffer through their idiocy.
Yea true, but even with changed laws and open boarders they would still grow up in the same closed society. The effect is the same unless the people are changed.
We agree on the issue even if my facts are off, I agree. Equal rights and treatment for all people. But we don't agree on how to bring about that change.
Replies
Now I had long hair for a very long time and I got shouts and things thrown at me (occasionally spat at) and was shoved about but I was the bigger man about it and shot them (Im joking about the last part).
For him to kill himself for being ashamed of who he is makes my "discrimination" pale in comparision
I think it's very narrow sighted and very egocentric to think otherwise. Every kind of person can experience persecution and it does not take suicide to highlight that fact.
Tto me suicide is giving up, plain and simple, and I dont think giving up should be respected. The people that are left behind when someone commits suicide often go through as much grief or more than that single person did. When they call it quits it's over for them, but the people that love and care about them live on with the grief that it causes forever.
But i still love Miles. Kisses!!
Until your in a position when you want to kill your self, never EVER say suicide is giving up. I knew of a kid who committed suicide after being bullied at school, would tell his parents he gave up and he shouldn't be respected?
Actually, it doesn't matter if you mind. If either of you continue the discussion here in this thread will step over the Warnings and dish out a couple infractions. And if it happens after that, we'll have to give you both 5 day vacations.
That reallly sucks.. imagine helping to save your country from Nazi Germany and your own government awards you by giving you breasts.. goddamn.
Here's hoping this goes through so that this kind of thing doesn't happen again.
We're gonna pay hard for this shit guys... but for now weeeeeee!
Seriously though, I'm of the belief that poverty is all a state of mind (been there). I understand that in order to succeed, you need to beleive you can. A lot of minority groups were deprived this for a long time, but seriously, it's time to get beyond this BS, there's other shit to worry about right now. One of the things grabbing this country by the balls is that we're too worried about who a person is, whether they're gay, straight, black, or white, republican (EVIL), democrat (that's cool). We're all biased to some degree and we're so wrapped up in labeling people that everything's falling apart as we can tell looking at this thread.
In the end who cares, feeling bad for yourself isn't going to help you make it. Grit your teeth, work your ass off, and maybe, just maybe, you can pull ahead of the black lesbain women who have been dominating this game art field for so long. Just kidding.
P.S.
http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?title=more-reparations&videoId=24407
I did not, until this thread, know that he was gay, or that he was persecuted, or that he committed suicide. I just saw him as another important Comp Scientist reverently referenced in the technical stuff I so often read.
Sorry, this isn't a discussion over who likes ice cream and what flavor is best. It's a discussion that covers human lives. As has been pointed out in the thread, the guy underwent chemical castration after doing possibly the most that a single person did to end the war, and was so utterly destroyed he commited suicide.
People who deny equal human rights to one another *are* horrible human beings. I am not going to use silk gloves and calmly explain to someone why it's not ok to own human slaves, rape a child, or any other type of despicable behavior, and I'm not morally required to either. This kind of shit should be mocked and the people holding these views ostracized till they either drop it, or relegate themselves to some backwater town with no influence to stew in their own juices.
It's not even about an "ultimate perfect view" it's about making damn sure that people's lives aren't ruined by society's prejudices, which is exactly what happend to Turing, and there is literally zero room for argument. No one is debating the finer points of what this potential apology will cause, they're basically whining about a situation they don't want to be confronted with because it makes them uncomfortable. Tough shit.
In my book it does make them bad people. Who's book is more relevant? The guy who doesn't understand anything about the situation and won't be affected in any way whether they apologize or not, or the person who has literally lived through a small iota of what Turing did?
*calmchat*
The way history looks back on certain people can dictate current and future tone towards not only that person, but people from the same demographic as them. A good example relevant to this story is Claus Stauffenberg (the german that Valkyrie was based off of). The way he is remembered in history has an affect on how many people think of Germans. If you make sure that history books are accurate, and public opinion informed about what went on, it can serve as an inspiration and cultural weathervane for the future.
There are certainly few enough gay icons to look up to as what you can aspire to become, and by making a narrative that celebrates Turing as not only a hero, but someone who was wrongly persecuted by the British government, it can give gay youth in the UK and the rest of the world a positive role model to look to and emulate.
...which leads us to...
...and finally:
I know you're pissed off, but I really hope you see my point.
I'm not pissed off, I'm just tired of stuff like this getting to fly without being challenged. Especially in the games industry.
It's hard to read someone speak so passionately about bigotry and prejudice remarks when they themselves are being prejudice. I was going to post this earlier based on some of your replies in this thread (and another, I believe) but it was reading you speak about prejudice behaviour that had me finally do it.
I want you to continue with writing about how you're feeling. But when you're contradicting your feelings against your choice of expression, its hard to follow.
So, just to completely lay it out for you:
Chemically castrating and destroying the career of a genius war hero because he's gay? Prejudice.
Mocking A) a white christian male who lives in texas for calling equal human rights "a movement" and
Now tell me how they are similar.
Carry on, but please be nice.
your the boss
People commit suicide for a laundry-list of reasons, none of them which are valid. I have a relative of mine that committed suicide, because he thought it was the only way out, though it truly was not the only way out.
That is fine if you believe that, but I disagree, and believe it is a choice. Some people may be more prone to it, but it is still a choice. Please no flames here people, just stating what I believe.
That's fine if you believe this, but other people will know you're a bigot. You may not like that label, but it was your choice to become a bigot.
Just stating what I believe.
Imagine you're Christian in a time where being so wasn't such a good idea. There is nothing wrong with your faith, but for some reason there is a law against it. You believe with all your heart in your faith, but live in fear that one day something will happen to you because of it. So you hide it from friends and family because they might out you. You love the work you do as a geneticist, you love the fact that one day it will help millions of people the world over.
So during the course of your double-life you created the cure for I dunno... AIDS, Cancer and Downs Syndrome. The freakin' world believes you to be a hero. Then, some asshole posts in the paper "So-And-So is Christian!!". Bam!! Police show up and take you away.
You do not hide the fact that you are Christian. You are proud of it. There is nothing morally, or socially wrong with it. The people that have the problem are the "closed-minded" individuals in power with their archaic and draconian ways. You believe that because you saved countless of lives, and you are a genuinely kind-hearted person, they will come to reason and the whole debacle will be over in a day or so. You can go home and pray with your family in peace. Take them to church on Sunday and be happy.
This is not the case. Your family is scared they will never see their dad again. All the work you have done is stripped away and your name is synonymous with shit. Who cares what you did for their wives, daughters, sons, fathers and brothers. We care about who you are, and that crazy thing you do on Sunday called "worshiping". Guilty of being Christian. Two choices lay in front of you: Convert to Flying-Spaghettism or go to jail for the rest of you life. You choose your freedom, so you worship the Spaghetti Monster. You can't find work doing what you love. You become depressed. You can't be who you are without some kind of retaliation or threat of death. Why is there a reason to live?
So you kill yourself way ahead of your time. A Genius that could have a lot more to give and could have changed the world even more.
60 years later the government says "Wow. We did fuck up.". It's not for that person, it's for the family, the descendants, other Christians and rights of anyone of any faith the world over.
Sorry that was long but... history is riddled with similar stories. I only hope it makes sense.
@Reparations - It makes me laugh. Really hard. That's another topic on another day.
Don't mind ben, he's just angry that you found out his secret.
Spark
You'll damage yourself. Try to remember that the strongest person in the room is often the quietest, being right doesn't change anything, and brow beating morons to change their opinions only reinforces their belief in them.
Knowing a truth is a great freedom, shouting it out at the world only transforms us into the role of the fool from the parable of the Emperor's New Clothes.
I try to remember that this is an art forum, ie we are all social retards... all of us. We do better here when we're all talking about things we grouply understand and are interested in that relate to the art and the things that inspire us to make it.
I cannot understand how you can take any previous statements to mean that. I understand perfectly these things. Just because they are against these actions now does not mean they are prejudiced against those groups(or a douche).
Whilst these actions in the past were extremely horrible(to say the least) we just cannot make up for them, its too late. The past is gone, done is done. Those responsible and their victims are gone. What matters now is people's actions towards those people's now.
what the hell? So did you choose to be attracted to women? Was that your decision? I know quite a few gay people and they definitely couldn't help it, it's just what they are.
Could you choose to be gay if being attracted to women was illegal suddenly?
The petition has been vastly overshadowed by various opposing arguments and has now been transformed into this ultimately fruitless flame war.
Come on guys...we are better than this BS.
People are what they are and the best of luck to everyone.
I think a lot of people have already honored his legacy and career in a lot of ways that have been highly successful. I think his scientific contributions far outweigh his death and his death outweighs future contributions that will go unmade. Tragic yes, but we should be thankful for what he was able to give us. If sense can be given to his senseless death then maybe that isn't a bad thing. Maybe he would like that?
Maybe if he wasn't pushed over the edge, a bunch of gay hating bigots could have summer condo's on the moon? But no they had to go and pick on the gay guy and give him tits.
Why don't I have a jet pack? Where is my flying car? I think reparations need to be made to me for all the advancements I've missed out on because of their costly mistake.
Personally I think paid reparations are BS. Apologies on the other hand, cost nothing but are worth so much.
I'm an American citizen. I'm legally married in the eyes of Iceland, Canada, Germany, Sweden, on and on, but NOT the country of my birth. And since my husband is not a US citizen, and the US has the Defense of Marriage act, I cannot come to the country of my birth to live and work unless I do so alone with an ocean separating me and my loved one.
That fucking sucks, and it's not something where there are nuances that need to be considered. Descrimination is wrong, there is no room for debate, sorry. It will cause some upset, but it really doesn't matter. We're not debating people's comfort level on the internet of being confronted with things that they find offensive, we're discussing children's ability to grow up to the best of their abilities, for adults to live with their loved ones in their home country, and for the elderly to make life choices for their life-long spouse and leave them their worldly posessions and with custody of their children.
So yes. We do need to belittle and bash people who believe that being gay is a choice and that it is ok to descriminate based on sexual orientation. These people are bigots, and it doesn't matter if that makes anyone uncomfortable, because they need to be made uncomfortable until the situation doesn't exist anymore.
You can label me as full of hate for America, and you can wonder why I won't just pipe down and be quiet as things slowly inch forward a millimeter at a time, but it's really easy to do in your positions, and you'll have to forgive me if I completely ignore your advice, even though I know it's well intentioned.
And to bring it back to the original article: Descrimination based on sexuality still occurs in the UK both at the legal and cultural level, and by issuing a public apology, it will have some small affect on both. No one honestly thinks that Turing himself needs or would benefit from this, it's symbolic, just like offering tax breaks for bicyclists or correcting misinformation in history books.
Wait hold on DOMA keeps your husband out of the US? How? Or is it because he doesn't have the required visa? That's not really DOMA's fault and while I agree that DOMA was a big pile of crap, it basically left it up to the states to decide. The US is still divided on the issue to the point that the federal government can't force all states to go along one way or the other. It certainly does NOT keep people from entering the country based on sexual orientation.
It was pretty much the green light to pursue it on the state level. Ever since then the push has been on state governments to recognize same sex couples.
In 2007, the Washington State Legislature passed S5336, creating domestic partnership in Washington. Which is a huge step forward. A bunch of other states have made progress also.
You may hate how slow the process is going but lets not be retarded and not recognize the progress that's been made just because it isn't happening overnight with the snap of your fingers. Forcing people to change against their will is just as bad. You might have been out of touch on the local level since you've been out of the country but honestly there are some good things happening in a lot of places.
Trust me, I'm informed on this issue.
And no, forcing people to change is not just as bad. That's what the supreme court did with desegregation. You don't make people suffer for real, so that bigots and religious zealots don't get their feelings hurt. Despite what the Supreme court currently thinks about it, the constitution and bill of rights supports equal rights for same sex partners, and it needs to be ruled on yesterday accordingly.
I'm putting myself out there and making this personal in the hopes that people have to be confronted with the affects that forcing their beliefs actually have on other people. Your stupid petty beliefs have no basis in the rule of law, and I won't give even an iota of credence or weight to how you feel about it, because you're unequivacably wrong in every way.
I am opposed to entitlements in the form of taking from someone to give to someone else if those alive today had nothing to do with the past.
But there are three basic entitlements all humans deserve. People have a right to their life, their liberty, and their pursuit of happiness. Unless someone is physically denying another individual of those basic rights, they can engage in any life style they wish. Whether being gay or not is a choice is irrelevant.
It is hypocritical to be a defender of freedom and the constitution while wanting to limit someone elses freedoms. A more noble cause for conservatives would be to pursue getting the state out of marriage altogether. Including heterosexual marriages and turn marriage back into strictly a religious institution. The only reason the state got involved was for health insurance reasons.
If marriage was strictly a religious function, then you as an individual can choose to be a part of whatever church you want. If homosexual marriages are being done at your church. Then just move to another church if you disagree.
I agree with conservatives when it comes to less government = better. That democracy is wrong and we should be a republic again. But it always amazes me how conservatives want these things while wanting more government intrusion in the bedroom.
TBH I believe in live-and-let-live, if it isn't directly harming or hurting anyone that isn't involved (and no, "those faggots are against god/are degenerate animals/eat children" doesn't really count).
The main thing isn't whether the apology should be issued, or what the politicians will gain from doing so or not doing so, or whether it's even the goverments position to do so in the first place. The main thing is to remind people that this happened, and to make sure that it will never happen again.
Sticky issue, really.
Unfortunately, this (important) issue will slide neatly off the collective conscience of most British people, end up as a sidebar on the BBC's news site and things will continue their decline like they have with everything else in the UK. It's not just homophobia that's a problem here - there's no decency, no consideration and, probably most importantly, no law and no justice.
Brown's total lack of professional credibility makes it even harder to imagine that this (if it even goes ahead) will achieve much, despite the issue's importance. A real shame.
Signed.
The forced change you talk about was the will of the many being forced on the few. Which like it or hate it is how government works. It might not always move in your direction but that's how it moves.
Right now the majority of the US is opposed to same sex marriage. If you want the will of the people to be carried out it would be an all out ban. Instead we have little pockets of hope here and there. It would be awesome if it happened over night but its not going to.
You change the laws by changing the people.
You don't change people by changing the laws.
Change the laws without changing the people just forces the discrimination underground.
You don't change people by shouting them down.
I believe in what you're standing for, I just don't think change happens over night. I also think the more you get in someones face about an issue the more entrenched that person will become. Rail all you want just know that it might do more harm than good.
I understand that getting a work visa isn't the easiest task (for anyone, regardless of sexual orientation) but it's certainly possible as many people seem to have success with it.
If you say you cant go back unless they recognize your marriage then what about states that allow gay marriage? Do you simply have to renew your marriage license stateside? Forgive me for not knowing the finer details, but am I to believe that the gay-marriage-welcome states allow "title only" marriage, with no benefit sharing? (not sure what the point is then?)
Would a suitable alternative be to both have jobs that provide the benefits you require while peacefully and proactively working to make life better for homosexuals in the US?
You are so, so wrong.
The US constitutionally protects minorities from majorities. The majority wanted segregation till the supreme court forced it by law. Even if it weren't how the country works (and it is) it's morally despicable to claim I have to convince bigots they are wrong before I can live my own life and pursue happiness.
I literally can't understand how you can be so wrong. How the flying FUCK can same-sex marriage discriminate against straight people? Unbelievable. Let the bigot states band together? Sure that's great for all their eventual GLBT children that have to suffer through their idiocy.
And I don't worry about loopholes, I'm not coming back to the US again willingly. The second I have my Icelandic citizenship, I'm dropping my American citizenship.
Thomas Jefferson:
3. The protection provided by this principle applies fundamentally, of course, in favor of a minority of one: The Individual. No majority, however great even all of the people but one Individual--may properly infringe, or possess the power to infringe, the rights of any minority, however small--even a minority of a lone Individual.
You realize that's not equal rights, if I marry a woman and she can come and just lay around my house or work as a janitor and never worry about legalities of visas? Visas are not easy to get in the US, they're expensive, and should be unnecessary in this case. It's not relevant though because neither of us want to live there. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the law.
States that allow same sex marriage are forbidden from offering federal benefits by DOMA and one federal benefit is living/working rights for foreign spouses. Every one of the 50 states could legalize same sex marriage, and without the repeal of DOMA it won't matter for American/foreigner same-sex marriages.
My suitable alternative is to live in a country with equal rights for all it's citizens and not contribute to a government that I so fundamentally disagree with. (and gay rights are the least of my beefs with the US government)
It also kind of kills your point about how bad it is to be barred from the place of your birth if you think that place sucks and you never want to go back.
Even as black-and-white as I tend to see things you really just cant expect the world to flip on and off like a light switch to bend to your demands, no matter how right or just those demands are. Sometimes you have to be more realistic, work with what you have, and then work to make life better for yourself and for others. Believe me, I'm all about fighting for your beliefs, but if you want to take that stance you actually have to stand up and do something with it.
Does giving up on the US help anyone else that might want to follow the same path you describe? If you're really that passionate about the issue why not come back and do something about it? Something with more weight than yelling at a bunch of artists on the internets.
In practicality laws get passed all the time based on general consensus or majority vote. Those laws at some point will tread on the rights of a few people.
You live in an open society because someone already took the time to change the people. It might not have taken as much convincing or even an angry argument but someone put in the work.
Even if the law was changed and the people where not you would legally have the right, but the pursuit of happiness wouldn't follow without change to the people. The change to the law isn't a bigot-be-gone wand that gets waved. If you want the law changed great, but to be a truly open society the people have to change. I can't hold it against you for not wanting to shout down bigots your entire life and seeking a better life some place else. But really if everyone did that, then DOMA wins.
Yea true, but even with changed laws and open boarders they would still grow up in the same closed society. The effect is the same unless the people are changed.
We agree on the issue even if my facts are off, I agree. Equal rights and treatment for all people. But we don't agree on how to bring about that change.