Healthcare...
Ok so a lot of debate going on in America right now about health care and British NHS is really being slandered. Any opinions for, against?
Really one sided argument here from fox http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/25666562/you-were-warned.htm with "fair and balanced" in their logo.
Really one sided argument here from fox http://www.foxnews.com/search-results/m/25666562/you-were-warned.htm with "fair and balanced" in their logo.
This discussion has been closed.
Replies
Check it out here: http://newsjunkiepost.com/2009/08/10/what-is-in-this-healthcare-bill-anyway/
As far as my opinion, I don't like it, wish there were better options, but think it's probably neccessary. It's certainly geared toward helping the poor rather than anyone else, and I expect it won't affect me too much right now. It's nice that people who can't afford insurance right now will get a moderately affordable plan, so they don't get bankrupted my unexpected emergencies. I dislike that it becomes mandatory to have insurance, or face "fines" in increased taxes. I think it might screw over some small bussinesses and startups. I wish there was some competition in the health insurance industry so we didn't have to do this. 400 a month when you're making 45k a year is a lot.
1) For most people the NHS works very well. And it's completely free.
2) America does not necessarily need to use a system like britan. There are plenty of other countries that have socialised healthcare which are better implemented.
It's a smear campaign led by the PR departments of the healthcare companies in the USA. And you shouldn't watch fox news except for the laughs.
I think what most people fail to realize is that either way they are going to end up spending a ton of money on health care in their lives, at least with government guarantied health care there will be something there for you if you can't pay. I think some people just think they will be lucky and not ever get sick their entire lives, no need for good health insurance right?, I find that highly unlikely the chances are that you will be less and less healthy as you age then have to spend more and more on health care. I'd rather be paying higher taxes than some crazy premiums. Imagine having a catastrophic illness and potentially going bankrupt trying to pay medical bills.
The greedy health care industry here doesn't help either, right now they charge ridiculous prices for things simply because the insurance companies will pay it. Right now if you don't have insurance you still have to pay those crazy prices just because insurance companies are willing to do so.
If you have money, you can always go private in the UK so for people who are always complaining about the NHS I just don't get it. Go private or stop moaning.
I just finished watching the video too and the British dudes just pissed me off. Why is that guy kissing ass at the beginning of the interview, it's not needed. Sounds like he'd be happier living in the USA if he's got so much to moan about lol.
Lets be real here, 90% our medical transactions are pure profit legal drug distribution. People go in complaining about random BS and get legal drugs for it. The plague of our nation's bad health isn't due to healthcare, but rather our other unhealthy practices of laziness and bad diet. The vast majority of health risk is preventable.
If this nation is going to change for the better. We need to find a way to stop people from drawing lines in the dirt. Too much of the voting public are bible thumping morons who are cheaply bought and sold by manufactured political commentators. It's not enough to sway half of the rational thinkers in this nation, you need to overcome the religious right handicap.
If healthcare reform falls through, I can see Obama's promise of change tanking fast. The memory of people cheering in the streets seem so distant now and a bunch of moronic bufoons crash town hall meetings to drown out reform discussions at the whim of big pharma and the republicans.
There are a lot of people with a lot to gain from healthcare reform failing. The republican party needs an opening or they risk total collapse, and as many have said, they don't need to come up with any solutions of their own, they need only say that the other guy is doing a shitty job.
Oh and Obama's black and a lot of people are afraid of him. That's the elephant in the room.
That said I want some reform for those of us that can pay the basics but will get dropped like bitches if we get something nasty. If your paying premiums you shouldn't get left in the dust if your get some cancer or something. Fuck we have had the tech to treat most of that for awhile now but because of how things are set up the public takes it in the ass. I don't care what side of the political fence you fall on this shit is just WRONG.
I'm with Obama on this shit cause he is pushing for a truly American system.
Word!
this guy had an accident with a sawtable and chopped his pinky and ringfinger off.
ariving at the hospital he could pick wich one he wanted to get stiched back, because his pinky costed 11k and his other 20k or something like that, wich was way more then he could afford.
I didn't have to worry about how I might afford a 20 minute consultation, the drugs and neck-brace I had. It's provided. There are private options as well. I've never looked into it myself, but have seen adverts for BUPA healthcare and hospitals. Maybe that works jsut as well if not better, but the most important thing is I'd have the choice.
I've heard (3rd hand) of some people refering to the UK healthcare as communist, etc, in a derogatory sense. In my opinion, that couldn't be further from the truth. In a communist system (my GF is Bulgarian, we had an intersting chat about this as she knows very well about communist regimes... check your Bulgarian history) everyone is supposedly equal, gets equal resources and is treated equally. In the NHS this is not true. If I go in to a hospital with a stiff neck, I don't expect, and won't be to be treated equally to someone that just lost their arm in a car accident! They will get more treatment, more drugs, more rehabilitation... because they NEED it.
Wouldn't it be nice to think, that, if when walking accross the street in the US you get hit by a bus, that no matter what, young, old, rich, poor... there's going to be a paramedic, nurses, doctor, medication, equipment... and no questions about how you're going to pay?
As my mother so often states when talking about being polite to waiters/waitress',
"What if it was your child?".
Bring on the socialised medicine.
Another story about free health care here
http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=84385
I am amazed that in this day and age there are people in one of the most developed nations on earth who can't afford to stay alive.
The UK is getting that way too. Our so called labour government is getting so right wing that I am sure margaret thatcher would approve of some of their recent policies.
Dental care here is a joke.
Some folks have resorted to pulling out their own teeth:)
Once it was pointed out that he was from the UK and the NHS had treated him long before he was so famous the article was edited and that section removed.
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=333933006516877
thats what I call a serious case of self ownage.
might need medical attention for that one and indeed NHS may not be able to provide based on the seriousness of the infirmity.
The NHS system does remarkably well, and it only fails because it is streched too thin.
I really don't understand how people get suckered into the idea of socialized health care being bad for anyone. When everyone benefits, everyone benefits :P I much prefer my taxes in Canada going towards health care than my taxes in the U.S. being spent on awful, stupid wars.
Only 'lay abouts' get completely free treatment from the NHS.
is your solution just to have it carry on the way it is?
quote from reuters
'Medical bills are behind more than 60 percent of U.S. personal bankruptcies, U.S. researchers reported on Thursday in a report they said demonstrates that healthcare reform is on the wrong track.
More than 75 percent of these bankrupt families had health insurance but still were overwhelmed by their medical debts, the team at Harvard Law School, Harvard Medical School and Ohio University reported in the American Journal of Medicine.
"Unless you're Warren Buffett, your family is just one serious illness away from bankruptcy," Harvard's Dr. David Himmelstein, an advocate for a single-payer health insurance program for the United States, said in a statement.
"For middle-class Americans, health insurance offers little protection,"
this is true thats why drunken louts should be left in the gutter
If they spoke like that over here they would at the least be laughed at, or get bemused looks and just ignored. People like that who are so desperate to get their points across, its obvious something is wrong with them.
Our NHS may be shit, but at least in its own shit manner it tries its best for all. You dont have to worry about it, and because it is national you can fight against some of its percieved unfairness. Unlike a private system, where thats just the way it is, or you have to persue it through private courts etc.
I think, somekind of national health service is required for civs to develop beyond a certain point(like in the civ games, aquaducts, etc, maybe a stupid example but whatever).
[ame]
Oh hell no, I'm not saying that at all. I am like the rest of you, I think every American should be, and can be covered. For those of you who support this bill as it is right now, I understand where your coming from. I am uninsured! But this bill is fucking insane and I urge you to actually read it instead of getting it from MSNBC or Fox News or who ever you listen to. See for yourself.
I believe health care reform can be done without Congress passing another trillion in spending, without putting more job-killing mandates and taxes on business, without killing off whatever incentives still remain for our best students to become physicians, and without turning millions of patients into wards of the state.
It's kind of embarrassing to me, as an American. I just had my wisdom teeth taken out. It was mostly covered by my insurance. But had I not had insurance I might have saved money by flying to Thailand and getting them cut out.
The thing is, I don't really have insurance right now. Even though I have it. The minute I'm seriously ill I can get dropped for "pre existing conditions." So it's like paying for guarantees and peace of mind, but not really having any guarantees or peace of mind.
But a lot of Americans are terrified of communism, and too stupid to know that all government programs do not equal communism. So save your breath and don't bother arguing with any of them. All of their arguments really boil down to "I HATE BLACK PEOPLE!"
EDIT
here's an example if you think I'm just being sensational:
http://wonkette.com/410463/wingnut-grabs-black-ladys-rosa-parks-poster-rips-it-up
If you don't like America's health care move to a place with better health care ( like canada, thailand, or costa rica).
hey, thanks for opening this thread! That felt really good!
Im a student that just got kicked off their parents insurance. It was supposed to cover me until graduation, but it changed. Shortly afterward, I get a thick letter from my college saying I need insurance as a condition of enrollment.
The cheapest insurance I can find is $75 a month and doesnt cover anything. No medicine, no doctors visits, etc. The $5000 deductible is awful. Disaster coverage basically. I rarely become injured, but I do get mildly sick time to time, and more and more of the over-the-counter cold/flu drugs are becoming prescription only.
A basic, free or very cheap, option would be great. It doesnt have to be fantastic. For many people, it might just be temporary.
A dental version should be considered too. Ive been paying in full for years and always have to put off getting work done. Fair enough, but its ridiculous that my sister who is still in high school lost dental coverage.
"We want reform but we don't want Obama's healthcare reform." Seems to be the oppositions main talking point. The blowhards pushing for no reform are just trying to push the other side back as far as they can. Using as strong as language they can.
Not on health care reform, on THIS health care reform. It's not like those against it don't want it. Maybe there's a small percentage... but not much. I think we can all agree it needs to be reformed, no matter what side you're on.
This thread has been doing fine so far, but let's not fall into the trap of arguing about why the other side is arguing. Debate the topic, not each other.
Couldn't they just offer a safety net in that if you earn under a certain amount then you get government health care or does that happen at all already in the US?
What if you are a vagrant and get knocked over, would you get an ambulance ride or would they ignore you on the street?
The mistake Obama is making is that he is trying to make deals with an opposition party that has nothing meaningful to add to the debate other than saying no or Obama will kill old people. I think he needs to be bold,say fuck the GOP and try to push legislation that truely is reform instead of trying to make deals with such a useless opposition party that has done nothing but hurt and fuck over a majority of Americans for the last 10 years.
EDIT: Also is it just me or does there seem to be a certain element in the right in America that is subtlely encouraging wing nut lunatics to try to kill the president. Glen Beck being a good example to name just one.
I've gotta say, I'm thinking more and more that there is a huge hole in the market for a genuine news program with intelligent debates and guests. Seems like a huge room for money making...
I don't know man. Republican opinion on the subject ranges everywhere from "what problems? There are no problems!" to "We want to reform it on capitolist principles and we'lll get around to it.... one of these days... SUPPORT THE TROOOPS!!!"
a lot of people on that side of the argument sincerely don't want the government to get involved in their medicare (medicare is a government run program for elderly people).
"The mistake Obama is making is that he is trying to make deals with an opposition party that has nothing meaningful to add to the debate other than saying no or Obama will kill old people"
Agreed. Every time they shout "I want MY america back" and "Obama is an illegal immigrant that wants to kill old people" it demonstrates how useless their opinions are. It's time to start ignoring those people and marginalizing them.
Every time democrats take over they attempt to reform health care. Republicans had their shot to do it there way, and they did nothing. It's time to ignore them.
Marginalizing the people who disagree with this bill is exactly what Obama has done, and it's backfired big time. Also note that, in order for this bill to be passed, Republicans will need to help pass it as well. I'm sure you know this though, and are just venting
I have to disagree with your analysis of Republican opinion, but I am curious to how you reached the conclusion. Have you attended any town hall meetings? All the Republicans I talk to right now have read the bill (that's already more than most congressman have done), have concerns and questions about the bill, and when they try and ask their elected officials about it, they either get the round about or flamed. So of course they are a little pissed!
Be careful of the double standard some of you are laying down. If this was a hot topic for you, and you felt like Republicans were giving you the round about or flaming you, you would be equally pissed! And the liberal media would be all over it!
Sadly enough, I have to agree with you. While I was happy was Bush's foreign policy, he was horrible at domestic affairs. You're right, Republicans did do nothing and this is probably why we have Obama in office now. On top of that McCain was even farther left than Bush, so many people probably didn't feel like they had a choice, or just stayed home during the elections.
Fuck the healthcare bullshit, when are we finally adopting the metric system? Wake me when we start using a logical method of measure.
You mean liberal media like FOX news? Watch a little BBC and tell me the US media is liberal. What they are is sensationalist (on both sides Dem and GOP) and scared of showing to much tit.
Can you clarify what your saying? From this I got:
Fox news is liberal
BBC is liberal (?)
Liberals are sensationalists, whether they are Dem or Rep
They are scared to show too much tit
Is the above correct or am I misunderstanding?
All state run hospitals have a mandate to never refuse care. If you call 911 or walk into a ER, someone will take care of you regardless. The level of care after you are out of immediate life threatening danger is up to your insurance plan and how well it pays.
If you can't pay its up to the hospital to try and squeeze blood from a stone, or creatively make up the difference some other way. Often by charging those that can pay higher rates, which starts the lemmings running over the cliff...
MSNBC is liberal (democrat, left wing) sensationalist media.
It does seem that Fox news is more in for the rantings and ratings. But then I listen to NPR and think the republican party and conservatives in general have run themselves off a cliff.
Just like a house divided can not stand. Media bitterly divided can't accurately report unbiased news. There is no such thing as civil debate in the US. It's both sides frothing at the mouth until the other side gets tired or run out of town.
By living in Oklahoma
"Sadly enough, I have to agree with you. While I was happy was Bush's foreign policy, he was horrible at domestic affairs"
"Fox news is liberal
BBC is liberal (?)"
Wow. I really ought to take this opportunity to step away from this argument. If you're happy with Bush's foreign policy, I just don't know what to say to you. You think Fox news is liberal? I'm definitely dumbfounded here.
Peace,
I'm out.
Re-read, I was asking for clarification on Vig's post. I was stating what I thought he said, hoping he would restate it so I understood him better. Fox is definitely conservative.
As for his foreign policy, if you disagree with the war in Iraq, that's fine. And if it makes you step away from this thread, I guess that's fine too.
The media does have it's responsibility to report the facts accurately. There are definitely cases on both sides that we can point to and say it was inaccurately reported. To er is human. But I know what your thinking, error isn't the only reason we see inaccurately reported facts. And I agree! Politics are definitely involved.
If you and a group of people hold a viewpoint, then you probably want it voiced! The same goes for the opposite group. Two reporters can show up to the same event and draw two different conclusions. Health care is a prime example of divided viewpoints and of course, divided media. If our viewpoints can divide party lines, then I would think it would divide media lines as well. It's natural. My advice? Don't get all your facts from one source. Listen to the facts, then draw your own conclusion. If your conclusion just so happens to be what your favorite station's is, then fine. If it's not, that doesn't mean that station is wrong, but that's just what you know to be true.
Do I think it creates a nation divided against itself as you say? No, not at all. I think each side keeps the other on it's toes. It creates needed balance. I think we call each other out on crap all the time, but that's how it get's done. That's the American way. We reach a comprimise.
What's troubling about what's going on right now is that democrats are not allowing republicans any compromises. Obama preached about reaching across the table, yet time and time again republicans have plotted against. Does this happen the other way around? Absolutely. I am not crying wolf at all. But either way, it's wrong, and that's why people are upset.