Looks like the intensity scale needs recalibration. Thanks for finding that!
Good suggestion on the scriptability. I'll add a command-line interface, so you can invoke it from whatever scripting tool you fancy. Also, DDS support, auto-generated mips and alphabetized file extensions will all be added.
I second the photoshop plugin for two reasons:
- ease of use and pipeline integration
- commercial success
The first one is obvious, the second comes from the fact that it's use is as a utility, so it's not completely justified as a stand-alone application since it introduces a hiccup in work-flow. I would definitely purchase this if it weren't for that hiccup (and of course the last niggling points that others have pointed out are ironed out).
I just saw this link in a thread on the DirectXDev mailing list. http://www.sjbrown.co.uk/?code=squish
It's a DXT compressor/decompressor under the MIT license. Probably doesn't support uncompressed DDS formats, but he does list a couple other open-src alternatives.
Why have Curve Breadth only available when I choose Broad Curves? I think it'd be better to have all controls in one interface. I'm thinking instead Curve Breadth could range between the nrmls CrazyBump creates for zero 3D Shape and the nrmls CrazyBump creates for maximum Curve.
Also would be more helpful if CrazyBump de-coupled the Curve and 3D Shape controls, so they could be used independently, instead of forcing Curve to zero when Shape is 100.
I'm noticing the 3D Shape is lopsided, it tends to create a slope from one side to the other within a depression, instead of sloping equally downwards on all sides. It's darkest on the heightmap at one edge, rather than in the middle. Would be cool if it was centered on depressions instead.
With 3D shape at 100, the breadth slider hides because it has no effect: Normals are determined 100% by the 3D shape. We could run a broad curves filter on the 3D shape at that point. I'm not sure how useful the result would be. I must run an experiment and find out!
I know what you mean about lopsidedness. I'm working on some manual controls for fine-tuning your shape: "Horizontal Skew," "Vertical Skew," and "Flatten." I'll post an update when they're ready!
My goal is to add more sliders and tweakability to this app, so I definitely appreciate your suggestions in that vein.
Thanks for pointing me to that DXTN code, BTW. That'll come in handy.
So is your Broad Curve a slider version of Nvidia's Filter Type radio buttons (4 sample, 3x3, 5x5, etc.)? Whereas your 3D Shape is another method of averaging? And the Roughness is just pulling in more of the high-frequency detail?
Seems to me you are combining the three results... so why not just combine them at all ranges? Rather than apply Curve to Shape, then add Rough. I'm thinking like they could be three separate solutions, and CB could average/multiply/whatever them together, so each can be added as much or as little as I need.
At that point, it would be cool to have a separate Intensity slider for each solution. I'm wondering though if each might already be its own intensity slider, with the Intensity being an overal scalar...?
This is moving in the right direction, I'm glad to see you taking it on. I think this could be a really popular plugin/filter.
[ QUOTE ]
....This is moving in the right direction, I'm glad to see you taking it on. I think this could be a really popular plugin/filter.
[/ QUOTE ]I just tried this out for the first time this week (I forgot I had downloaded it) and from an *artists* point of view it just blows anything else out of the water.
I though "yeah yeah another app" and just opened a shitty photo I had of a rock into it, boy was I surprised at the results!; I don't know what's going on under the hood but the cumulative effect is an application that sort of 'intuitively' creates normalmaps (that's the only way I can think to describe what I've seen happen as a result of the way the app works). So yes, if Mr C goes all the way with this it *will* be a very popular app for artists.
@ Mr C. I couldn't find a website link in the app? If there isn't one it might be worth adding (alongside the mailing list e-mail details)
Keep up the good work. I hope you'll be keeping this as a stand alone app?
CrazyBump will continue as a standalone app, but I'm working on a plugin to launch it from Photoshop. You'll have a "send to CrazyBump" filter in photoshop and a "send to photoshop" button in CrazyBump. The functionality just amounts to Copy & Paste, with the added convenience of launching from photoshop when you need it.
I don't have a website for CrazyBump yet, or any documentation for that matter. Both are coming soon, though, I promise!
BTW, Eric- thanks for the suggestion. 2.5 will see a slew of intensity sliders. I'll post again when its ready.
Oh the one thing that I did find odd was the 'time limit' on the app... I can understand not wanting to have people using old versions and possibly giving out dated/moded feedback but for the sake of market penetration (so to speak) it might be better to remove that limitation so the app *stays* in peoples hands longer (otherwise they get lazy and uninstall it rather than update).
I haven't figured out where to price it yet. I'll let you know as soon as I have. For now, though, the beta is free for commercial or noncommercial work.
Rick-
I'd like to support the mac, but have no plan yet. A mac version won't happen until after the windows release. The current version might already work using Darwine. I must find myself an Intel mac in order to try it out.
Hi Ryan!
I really like this app, made my life alot easier.
A few suggestions. It would be very nice if the sliders also had a counter, so you could see the exact amount used.
And being able to use it fullscreen.
just a few ideas:
how 'bout a normal map compositing tool that lets you blend two or three normal maps together without losing detail in a normal map like you will with photoshop blend modes. having mask features and stuff would rule too.
I've e-mailed you about this already but I figured a post wouldn't hurt.
CrazyBump is no longer booting stating that the beta period is over and to contact you to continue. Also, my other copy isn't connecting to the authentication server.
I got the same error earlier. Not sure if 'forcing' a connection like that just to use the app is a good idea? (registering is fine but to have to connect to use it seems a bit odd)
The next version is not quite ready, so I've extended the current beta for another month. It should be working now. Please let me know if trouble persists.
Thanks for all your help with the beta test, guys!
CrazyBump is unable to reach the authentication server.
Please make sure you are connected to the Internet.
[If] the problem persists, send mail to ryanATcrazybump.com
I've been having great success with CrazyBump. Been using to generate normal maps for use in UE3. Getting alot better results than the nvidia plugin. Looking forward to your new updates
When I drag the preview popup onto my 2nd monitor, the normalmap changes to a bunch of junk pixels. Moving it back to the primary monitor fixes it.
I wish I could zoom out further, to see how it mips down. I don't think it'll mip accurately to how our engine mips them (everyone does it differently), but at least it'd give me a ballpark.
I'm getting hard edges in the preview when my source photo has big areas of flat color in it, and "Detail From Shape Analysis" > 0. For example I'm feeding it an atlas of particle sprites, and there's empty black space between the rows/columns of sprite images. That's where the edges are appearing. Can't tell if they're in the normalmap view, but they do show up (subtly) in the displacement view.
When saving TIFF, what does the Multi Strip option mean? Multiple pages/frames within the same file? Does CrazyBump use this somehow?
Any plans for creating/saving mips? (creating after the fact is less than ideal)
Hey Ryan, I've been using CrazyBump almost daily and I've got some suggestions and comments off the top of my head.
Firstly, I've noticed it seems to be 'chugging' now and not running as smoothly as previous builds.
The 3D preview screen has had a lot of improvements, but why can't I open or close it on my own whim? It's annoying that it ALWAYS has to be up.
Any changes made to any of the parameters/sliders get applied to the 3D window automatically, yet the displacement needs to be manually updated. The displacement should be updated automatically whenever a value is adjusted.
I love that I can use my clipboard to input/output my images into CrazyBump - great idea. Before I'd save my image to the desktop then pull it in from there, this is speeding the process up.
I still believe CrazyBump needs to be an integrated plug-in for Photoshop and not a stand-alone application. It'll make for a rather streamlined interface and application if done so. As a developer I already have enough applications running throughout my day and I really don't need another.
Also, for your beta, why not include the .NET frame work with the download itself? You've got a link to it on the downloads page which is nice, but it'd be handy if it were included in the install. This way it could check to see if it needs to be installed then ask the user if they'd like the installer to install it.
Anyway Ryan, since its release CrazyBump has been my tool of choice for creating normal maps from images. Once released nVidia will have to get their shit together with that plug-in if they want to even come close to the amount of control CB is offering.
Hey Adam, thanks. You make several good suggestions which I aim to implement; expect some in the next beta and others further down the road.
You're correct in observing that sliders respond more slowly in this version. The new blending controls came with a speed penalty. Expect that to be significantly improved for the next release.
Good call on the automatic displacement-refresh. That will be an option in the next beta test. I expect some users will prefer the quicker response afforded by updating only the normals, while others will prefer to see both updated.
Thanks for your testing, comments, and suggestions. You've been a great help, man!
Ryan, I am very new to Crazybump, just finding out about it a few days ago. I have downloaded the 2.5 beta, and installed the latest .NET files. I still am unable to get the beta to run, what do I look into next?
Installed .NET Runtime(s)
OK.
Current version: The following runtimes are installed:
2.0.50727.42 Version 2.0 RTM (Visual Studio.NET 2005 RTM / SQL Server 2005 RTM) Nov 2005
ADO Database Runtime Version
OK.
Current version: 2.81.1117.0
Determined from file: C:\Program Files\Common Files\System\ado\msado15.dll
Internet Explorer Version
OK.
Current version: 6.0.2900.2987
Determined from file: C:\WINDOWS\System32\shdocvw.dll
Just wanted to thank you for Crazy Bump, all of Epic is slowly converting to it, and those that are slower have simply not been shown it yet.
It really is a VAST improvement over the alternatives out there and can provide a huge speed boost to a process that is overly long and time consuming.
If theres one fundamental feature that you could add to later updates it is the ability to combine normal maps in a similar fashion with the sliders that are currently used to decide between the depth of hi and low frequency detail.
The reason this would be so benificial is that combining layers of normal map information in all 2d applications is a very fiddly process and varies wildly from the reliance the industry has built up over the years on photoshops layer structure.
In the past it was easy to use a multiply, overlay, hard light, softlight layer type overlay to combine 2 photos or handrawn elements in an additive fashion to produce a combination of the best elements of each individual.
With normal maps the same process invariably nukes the blue channel depth information or places the balance between the red and green channel information poorly.
This leads to many additional steps and workarounds to combine the desired elements without nuking the bottom layers normal information.
One way for instance is to hand tweek the red / green / blue channels individually for each layer and also play around with the levels transparency options for each.
Sometimes it simply is not possible to get as balanced a result as desired which creates the need for programs like Zbrush, Mudbox and so on in order to add that 'noise' level hi frequency detail on top of a hi poly model in order to ensure the placement is correct in order to generate the level of rich depth that ensures a good normal map ingame.
The adds days to production time, sometimes that is not a problem, but often there are many assets that we need to class as lower priority and bodge by hand.
If CrazyBump could treat 2 different normal maps in a similar fashion as it treats hi and low frequency depth, and allow the user to tweak the transparency level of hi and low level detail onto each other, classing one normal map as the primary and the other as the 2ndary, it would be a revolutionary feature.
As an example, I had made a modular set of concrete bunkerbase walls for a cold climate level in UT2k7 previously and wanted to up res them quickly without taking such a long time so I just modelled out the bold detail in max to ensure all the main forms conformed to the grid locations on the flat texture that I needed.
I then composited a very rough damaged concrete wall texture based on a wall in my hometown that the RAF used for target practise as it had all the impact damage I could hope for.
I used crazy bump to get the normal map I required out of that texture and then spent the longest part of the process in photoshop trying to combine the 2 elements in such a way as to not destroy the bold forms and blue channel information while still grafting the concrete noise information on top.
As best I know, the combining of normals is still one of the biggest time constraints for most artists using this technology so if this feature is a similar in coding terms to what crazy bump is already doing, as it seems it is in artist terms..... well it'd be awesome.
Gotta agree with Rorshach on that one. Combining normal maps and not losing detail can be incredibly time consuming on any project and a lot of the times on the smaller stuff it just gets overlooked and tossed out since you don't want to spend all kinds of time on it.
I have a few actions I have gotten from guys around the boards that combine maps in photoshop and from stuff i have played with but what Rorshach is talking about would be much easier.
If CrazyBump could treat 2 different normal maps in a similar fashion as it treats hi and low frequency depth, and allow the user to tweak the transparency level of hi and low level detail onto each other, classing one normal map as the primary and the other as the 2ndary, it would be a revolutionary feature.
I would also like to second Rorshach's request for a normal map combiner tool. The main problem with using Photoshop for the task is that it treats your normal map as color instead of as normal vectors. In order for normal maps to be combined correctly, the normals need to be combined as vectors. It needs to be done like this:
(In HLSL psuedo code because it's what I know)
//sample both of your normal maps and convert them to vectors
float3 normal1 = tex2d(normal1Sampler, UVCoords) * 2 - 1;
float3 normal2 = tex2d(normal2Sampler, UVCoords) * 2 - 1;
//multiply the second normal by a weight value - this is like changing transparency on your Photoshop layer
normal2 *= weight;
//add the two normal maps together
normal1 += normal2;
//renormalize the normal
normal1 = normalize(normal1);
//convert the result back to a normal map
float3 final = normal1 * 0.5 + 0.5;
It might also be nice to have the option to only use the blue channel from the primary normal map - so you would only be adding in the red and green of the secondary normal map instead of the whole thing.
Having a tool that combined the normal maps this way instead of the cludgy Photoshop way would be awesome. I know that ATi's NormalMapper does it this way, but it's a command line app. and it's kind of a pain to use. Ryan, if you built this tool into CrazyBump it would be great!
i also noticed that the displacement maps it creates from normals look much different those created by your DisplacementCreator. these new maps that crzy bump makes might in reality be much better displacement maps, but the ones from DisplacementCreator i use so much in my texure creation process, they are wonderful for spec maps and adding just hint of volume to things on the diffuse, it would be awesome to get this into crazy bump maybe as some type of 3rd option.. i cant really use the new displacement maps for much.
Love this tool, Ryan, I'm finding it very useful every day.
One thing - at the moment it doesn't normalise maps it creates ... is there any reason for this? Seems a bit silly to have to go into PS and run the NVidia filter on it when Crazybump does everything else
I'd also love to see some sort of combiner for different normals, that'd rock even more!
Great program! I was amazed at the results coming from raw textures and so were a lot of people here at work. I am definately integrating this into my workflow.
I don't know if these have been covered here or in other forums or how feasible they are but I have some suggestions:
- The ability to view the normal map with the original/source diffuse texture on top.
- A reset option to return to original/raw normal map that hasn't been adjusted. I know I can just reopen it but I found myself wanting to do this more than once.
- A display that shows the current name of the file would be really helpful. (TX_Blahblah_blah.bla)
For the most part, these aren't critical but I found myself wanting these options more than once.
Anyways, great program and I look forward to seeing how this develops further!
Rorshach:
Thanks for that suggestion. Combining arbitrary maps is a really good idea. I'll get a test of that going. I'll keep you posted!
MoP:
You're right, output should be normalized; some users are gonna need that. I usually normalize vectors at runtime to get decent accuracy... normalizing the poor things when I'm about to chop most of their bits off seems almost cruel somehow. I know there are situations where you'd rather just have them normalized at 8 bits, though. I'll hook that up. Thanks!
arshlevon:
Thanks for the suggestion. Expect an option for "old-style displacement maps" in 2.6. (I hope to think of a better name by then, though)
Gonzo:
Thanks for your feedback! Filename display and diffuse textures are sorely needed - it's a bit embarassing that I haven't got them in already! To restore a default state, just slide "fine detail" to the maximum and everything else to zero. (Would a "revert" button be useful anyway? Let me know.)
[ QUOTE ]
arshlevon:
Thanks for the suggestion. Expect an option for "old-style displacement maps" in 2.6. (I hope to think of a better name by then, though)
[/ QUOTE ]
Call them crevice maps, that's what I used them for.
ryan thanks! this is great i know rockstar will be happy as well. crazy bump has always been very useful but its becoming an invaluable tool in my workflow.
Reseting the source files would be my only suggestion/gripe. Everything else is perfect the way it is. Interface is simple and clean, the results are fast and gratifying, and the time it saves me from hand painting normal maps is incredible. I use Crazybump at work and have been highly recommending it to coworkers. Crazybump makes normal mapping fun! Weeee! Feel free to use that as a slogan, hehe. Thanks for the sweet program!
Is there a way to save a 'preset' that can be applied to other images when being processed? Is it possible to impliment? I've just been doing some rock textures and found a 'level' of filter I quite like and thought the abilty to save that to apply to other images would be handy, might even be possible to build up an online downloadble library like photoshop has with it's plugins and filters if there was enough interest I guess!
[ QUOTE ]
Is there a way to save a 'preset' that can be applied to other images when being processed? Is it possible to impliment? I've just been doing some rock textures and found a 'level' of filter I quite like and thought the abilty to save that to apply to other images would be handy, might even be possible to build up an online downloadble library like photoshop has with it's plugins and filters if there was enough interest I guess!
[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking about this yesterday too tweaking some maps, it would be really good to have presets.
Replies
Good suggestion on the scriptability. I'll add a command-line interface, so you can invoke it from whatever scripting tool you fancy. Also, DDS support, auto-generated mips and alphabetized file extensions will all be added.
thanks for the excellent testing!
-Ryan
I second the photoshop plugin for two reasons:
- ease of use and pipeline integration
- commercial success
The first one is obvious, the second comes from the fact that it's use is as a utility, so it's not completely justified as a stand-alone application since it introduces a hiccup in work-flow. I would definitely purchase this if it weren't for that hiccup (and of course the last niggling points that others have pointed out are ironed out).
http://www.sjbrown.co.uk/?code=squish
It's a DXT compressor/decompressor under the MIT license. Probably doesn't support uncompressed DDS formats, but he does list a couple other open-src alternatives.
Also would be more helpful if CrazyBump de-coupled the Curve and 3D Shape controls, so they could be used independently, instead of forcing Curve to zero when Shape is 100.
I'm noticing the 3D Shape is lopsided, it tends to create a slope from one side to the other within a depression, instead of sloping equally downwards on all sides. It's darkest on the heightmap at one edge, rather than in the middle. Would be cool if it was centered on depressions instead.
I know what you mean about lopsidedness. I'm working on some manual controls for fine-tuning your shape: "Horizontal Skew," "Vertical Skew," and "Flatten." I'll post an update when they're ready!
My goal is to add more sliders and tweakability to this app, so I definitely appreciate your suggestions in that vein.
Thanks for pointing me to that DXTN code, BTW. That'll come in handy.
cheers,
-Ryan
Seems to me you are combining the three results... so why not just combine them at all ranges? Rather than apply Curve to Shape, then add Rough. I'm thinking like they could be three separate solutions, and CB could average/multiply/whatever them together, so each can be added as much or as little as I need.
At that point, it would be cool to have a separate Intensity slider for each solution. I'm wondering though if each might already be its own intensity slider, with the Intensity being an overal scalar...?
This is moving in the right direction, I'm glad to see you taking it on. I think this could be a really popular plugin/filter.
....This is moving in the right direction, I'm glad to see you taking it on. I think this could be a really popular plugin/filter.
[/ QUOTE ]I just tried this out for the first time this week (I forgot I had downloaded it) and from an *artists* point of view it just blows anything else out of the water.
I though "yeah yeah another app" and just opened a shitty photo I had of a rock into it, boy was I surprised at the results!; I don't know what's going on under the hood but the cumulative effect is an application that sort of 'intuitively' creates normalmaps (that's the only way I can think to describe what I've seen happen as a result of the way the app works). So yes, if Mr C goes all the way with this it *will* be a very popular app for artists.
@ Mr C. I couldn't find a website link in the app? If there isn't one it might be worth adding (alongside the mailing list e-mail details)
Keep up the good work. I hope you'll be keeping this as a stand alone app?
CrazyBump will continue as a standalone app, but I'm working on a plugin to launch it from Photoshop. You'll have a "send to CrazyBump" filter in photoshop and a "send to photoshop" button in CrazyBump. The functionality just amounts to Copy & Paste, with the added convenience of launching from photoshop when you need it.
I don't have a website for CrazyBump yet, or any documentation for that matter. Both are coming soon, though, I promise!
BTW, Eric- thanks for the suggestion. 2.5 will see a slew of intensity sliders. I'll post again when its ready.
thanks,
-Ryan
when the final version is finished, about how much will a license cost? <---- asking about a non-commerical version
I haven't figured out where to price it yet. I'll let you know as soon as I have. For now, though, the beta is free for commercial or noncommercial work.
Rick-
I'd like to support the mac, but have no plan yet. A mac version won't happen until after the windows release. The current version might already work using Darwine. I must find myself an Intel mac in order to try it out.
I really like this app, made my life alot easier.
A few suggestions. It would be very nice if the sliders also had a counter, so you could see the exact amount used.
And being able to use it fullscreen.
how 'bout a normal map compositing tool that lets you blend two or three normal maps together without losing detail in a normal map like you will with photoshop blend modes. having mask features and stuff would rule too.
I've e-mailed you about this already but I figured a post wouldn't hurt.
CrazyBump is no longer booting stating that the beta period is over and to contact you to continue. Also, my other copy isn't connecting to the authentication server.
The next version is not quite ready, so I've extended the current beta for another month. It should be working now. Please let me know if trouble persists.
Thanks for all your help with the beta test, guys!
Please make sure you are connected to the Internet.
[If] the problem persists, send mail to ryanATcrazybump.com
EDIT: She's workin'
I've been having great success with CrazyBump. Been using to generate normal maps for use in UE3. Getting alot better results than the nvidia plugin. Looking forward to your new updates
Version 2.5. It sees a few changes:
-Improved performance!
-Resizeable preview window with new controls. (including proper zoom and tileable seam-inspection.)
-Clipboard support, for integration with other apps. There's no photoshop plugin yet, but you can copy & paste between apps now.
-New sliders give more control of blending between details at different frequencies.
-Some other tweaks that I am not thinking of right now.
You can grab the new beta test from www.crazybump.com/beta/download.html
Cheers,
-Ryan
I wish I could zoom out further, to see how it mips down. I don't think it'll mip accurately to how our engine mips them (everyone does it differently), but at least it'd give me a ballpark.
I'm getting hard edges in the preview when my source photo has big areas of flat color in it, and "Detail From Shape Analysis" > 0. For example I'm feeding it an atlas of particle sprites, and there's empty black space between the rows/columns of sprite images. That's where the edges are appearing. Can't tell if they're in the normalmap view, but they do show up (subtly) in the displacement view.
When saving TIFF, what does the Multi Strip option mean? Multiple pages/frames within the same file? Does CrazyBump use this somehow?
Any plans for creating/saving mips? (creating after the fact is less than ideal)
See the end of this message for details on invoking
just-in-time (JIT) debugging instead of this dialog box.
************** Exception Text **************
System.DivideByZeroException: Attempted to divide by zero.
at numField<float>.resample(numField<float>* , Int32 nWidth, Int32 nHeight)
at nrmIntegrationPass(vectorField* vectors, Int32 slack, Boolean bProcessEvents)
at nrmIntegrationPass(vectorField* vectors, Int32 slack, Boolean bProcessEvents)
at nrmIntegrationPass(vectorField* vectors, Int32 slack, Boolean bProcessEvents)
at nrmIntegrationPass(vectorField* vectors, Int32 slack, Boolean bProcessEvents)
at nrmIntegrationPass(vectorField* vectors, Int32 slack, Boolean bProcessEvents)
at nrmIntegrationPass(vectorField* vectors, Int32 slack, Boolean bProcessEvents)
at nrmIntegrationPass(vectorField* vectors, Int32 slack, Boolean bProcessEvents)
at nrmIntegrationPass(vectorField* vectors, Int32 slack, Boolean bProcessEvents)
at nrmIntegrationPass(vectorField* vectors, Int32 slack, Boolean bProcessEvents)
at HeightFromShading(numField<float>* inputValues, Single xDir, Single yDir)
at GuessLightAngle(numField<float>* inputField, Boolean bSecondBest)
at CrazyBump.Form1.performDeepAnalysis()
at CrazyBump.Form1.timer2_Elapsed(Object sender, ElapsedEventArgs e)
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CodeBase: [url="file:///c:/windows/assembly/gac/system.xml/1.0.5000.0__b77a5c561934e089/system.xml.dll"]file:///c:/windows/assembly/gac/system.xml/1.0.5000.0__b77a5c561934e089/system.xml.dll[/url]
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Firstly, I've noticed it seems to be 'chugging' now and not running as smoothly as previous builds.
The 3D preview screen has had a lot of improvements, but why can't I open or close it on my own whim? It's annoying that it ALWAYS has to be up.
Any changes made to any of the parameters/sliders get applied to the 3D window automatically, yet the displacement needs to be manually updated. The displacement should be updated automatically whenever a value is adjusted.
I love that I can use my clipboard to input/output my images into CrazyBump - great idea. Before I'd save my image to the desktop then pull it in from there, this is speeding the process up.
I still believe CrazyBump needs to be an integrated plug-in for Photoshop and not a stand-alone application. It'll make for a rather streamlined interface and application if done so. As a developer I already have enough applications running throughout my day and I really don't need another.
Also, for your beta, why not include the .NET frame work with the download itself? You've got a link to it on the downloads page which is nice, but it'd be handy if it were included in the install. This way it could check to see if it needs to be installed then ask the user if they'd like the installer to install it.
Anyway Ryan, since its release CrazyBump has been my tool of choice for creating normal maps from images. Once released nVidia will have to get their shit together with that plug-in if they want to even come close to the amount of control CB is offering.
Thanks Ryan.
You're correct in observing that sliders respond more slowly in this version. The new blending controls came with a speed penalty. Expect that to be significantly improved for the next release.
Good call on the automatic displacement-refresh. That will be an option in the next beta test. I expect some users will prefer the quicker response afforded by updating only the normals, while others will prefer to see both updated.
Thanks for your testing, comments, and suggestions. You've been a great help, man!
Error immediately after loading the beta.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a171/vkirchner/crazy25.jpg
VersionCheck results for ITALY:
Installed .NET Runtime(s)
OK.
Current version: The following runtimes are installed:
2.0.50727.42 Version 2.0 RTM (Visual Studio.NET 2005 RTM / SQL Server 2005 RTM) Nov 2005
ADO Database Runtime Version
OK.
Current version: 2.81.1117.0
Determined from file: C:\Program Files\Common Files\System\ado\msado15.dll
Internet Explorer Version
OK.
Current version: 6.0.2900.2987
Determined from file: C:\WINDOWS\System32\shdocvw.dll
VersionCheck (c) 2002-2004 TMG Development Ltd - http://www.tmgdevelopment.co.uk/versioncheck/indexapp.htm
Just wanted to thank you for Crazy Bump, all of Epic is slowly converting to it, and those that are slower have simply not been shown it yet.
It really is a VAST improvement over the alternatives out there and can provide a huge speed boost to a process that is overly long and time consuming.
If theres one fundamental feature that you could add to later updates it is the ability to combine normal maps in a similar fashion with the sliders that are currently used to decide between the depth of hi and low frequency detail.
The reason this would be so benificial is that combining layers of normal map information in all 2d applications is a very fiddly process and varies wildly from the reliance the industry has built up over the years on photoshops layer structure.
In the past it was easy to use a multiply, overlay, hard light, softlight layer type overlay to combine 2 photos or handrawn elements in an additive fashion to produce a combination of the best elements of each individual.
With normal maps the same process invariably nukes the blue channel depth information or places the balance between the red and green channel information poorly.
This leads to many additional steps and workarounds to combine the desired elements without nuking the bottom layers normal information.
One way for instance is to hand tweek the red / green / blue channels individually for each layer and also play around with the levels transparency options for each.
Sometimes it simply is not possible to get as balanced a result as desired which creates the need for programs like Zbrush, Mudbox and so on in order to add that 'noise' level hi frequency detail on top of a hi poly model in order to ensure the placement is correct in order to generate the level of rich depth that ensures a good normal map ingame.
The adds days to production time, sometimes that is not a problem, but often there are many assets that we need to class as lower priority and bodge by hand.
If CrazyBump could treat 2 different normal maps in a similar fashion as it treats hi and low frequency depth, and allow the user to tweak the transparency level of hi and low level detail onto each other, classing one normal map as the primary and the other as the 2ndary, it would be a revolutionary feature.
As an example, I had made a modular set of concrete bunkerbase walls for a cold climate level in UT2k7 previously and wanted to up res them quickly without taking such a long time so I just modelled out the bold detail in max to ensure all the main forms conformed to the grid locations on the flat texture that I needed.
I then composited a very rough damaged concrete wall texture based on a wall in my hometown that the RAF used for target practise as it had all the impact damage I could hope for.
I used crazy bump to get the normal map I required out of that texture and then spent the longest part of the process in photoshop trying to combine the 2 elements in such a way as to not destroy the bold forms and blue channel information while still grafting the concrete noise information on top.
As best I know, the combining of normals is still one of the biggest time constraints for most artists using this technology so if this feature is a similar in coding terms to what crazy bump is already doing, as it seems it is in artist terms..... well it'd be awesome.
r.
I have a few actions I have gotten from guys around the boards that combine maps in photoshop and from stuff i have played with but what Rorshach is talking about would be much easier.
If CrazyBump could treat 2 different normal maps in a similar fashion as it treats hi and low frequency depth, and allow the user to tweak the transparency level of hi and low level detail onto each other, classing one normal map as the primary and the other as the 2ndary, it would be a revolutionary feature.
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Oh hell yes!
(In HLSL psuedo code because it's what I know)
//sample both of your normal maps and convert them to vectors
float3 normal1 = tex2d(normal1Sampler, UVCoords) * 2 - 1;
float3 normal2 = tex2d(normal2Sampler, UVCoords) * 2 - 1;
//multiply the second normal by a weight value - this is like changing transparency on your Photoshop layer
normal2 *= weight;
//add the two normal maps together
normal1 += normal2;
//renormalize the normal
normal1 = normalize(normal1);
//convert the result back to a normal map
float3 final = normal1 * 0.5 + 0.5;
It might also be nice to have the option to only use the blue channel from the primary normal map - so you would only be adding in the red and green of the secondary normal map instead of the whole thing.
Having a tool that combined the normal maps this way instead of the cludgy Photoshop way would be awesome. I know that ATi's NormalMapper does it this way, but it's a command line app. and it's kind of a pain to use. Ryan, if you built this tool into CrazyBump it would be great!
-Ben
One thing - at the moment it doesn't normalise maps it creates ... is there any reason for this? Seems a bit silly to have to go into PS and run the NVidia filter on it when Crazybump does everything else
I'd also love to see some sort of combiner for different normals, that'd rock even more!
Keep up the great work.
I don't know if these have been covered here or in other forums or how feasible they are but I have some suggestions:
- The ability to view the normal map with the original/source diffuse texture on top.
- A reset option to return to original/raw normal map that hasn't been adjusted. I know I can just reopen it but I found myself wanting to do this more than once.
- A display that shows the current name of the file would be really helpful. (TX_Blahblah_blah.bla)
For the most part, these aren't critical but I found myself wanting these options more than once.
Anyways, great program and I look forward to seeing how this develops further!
Thanks for that suggestion. Combining arbitrary maps is a really good idea. I'll get a test of that going. I'll keep you posted!
MoP:
You're right, output should be normalized; some users are gonna need that. I usually normalize vectors at runtime to get decent accuracy... normalizing the poor things when I'm about to chop most of their bits off seems almost cruel somehow. I know there are situations where you'd rather just have them normalized at 8 bits, though. I'll hook that up. Thanks!
arshlevon:
Thanks for the suggestion. Expect an option for "old-style displacement maps" in 2.6. (I hope to think of a better name by then, though)
Gonzo:
Thanks for your feedback! Filename display and diffuse textures are sorely needed - it's a bit embarassing that I haven't got them in already! To restore a default state, just slide "fine detail" to the maximum and everything else to zero. (Would a "revert" button be useful anyway? Let me know.)
arshlevon:
Thanks for the suggestion. Expect an option for "old-style displacement maps" in 2.6. (I hope to think of a better name by then, though)
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Call them crevice maps, that's what I used them for.
r.
-LM
Is there a way to save a 'preset' that can be applied to other images when being processed? Is it possible to impliment? I've just been doing some rock textures and found a 'level' of filter I quite like and thought the abilty to save that to apply to other images would be handy, might even be possible to build up an online downloadble library like photoshop has with it's plugins and filters if there was enough interest I guess!
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I was thinking about this yesterday too tweaking some maps, it would be really good to have presets.