It's about time someone posted a thread like this... Thanks Ror.
I always wanted to be a 3D Character Artist thinking that was the best shit ever when it came to game development. But since I got my games job and starting out on the environment team, I kind of don't want to go to characters.
I like how most people think environment art is making trashcans and boxes... The whole time I've been doing environments, I havn't yet made one trashcan nor a solid box object (YES, NO CRATES! Unbelievable!).
Sure it can be boring at times doing shit like collision meshing, patching holes and making good occluders and other random shit like that. But there are annoying things with everything in 3D.
A few people have also asked for tips and stuff. I'll take my time during my lunch breaks this week and make a list of cool tips I've learned and will use for every other environment I build in the future. I'll link to my webbie so everyone can have a look at it. I'd be more than happy for people to correct the stuff I put up or add to it.
Oh, we should have more environment contests on polycount!
Thanks for that post. I have to second poop, but I must admit, environment art gets interesting actually. Since you have a shitload of new shaders and fancy stuff you can use to visualize.
Doing also some environment shit lately and it fun (though not very challanging so far).
This has been a good read, one thing to comment on is that even if you get 'stuck' doing some modern day photorealistic stuff there's still a lot of areas to make environment art that excels. Lighting, and composition are two ways to really push an environment. Yeah making a plain brick wall in an alleyway could be kinda boring but working on a higher level of adding mood to the scene through lighting/effects and creating a nice composition of objects/buildings in the distance against the pieces of the foreground can be fun. Yeah it's tons of fun to work on stylised environments but just because something has to be photoreal or modern doesnt mean you cant give the scene some visual interest.
I've said it once and I'll say it again... VERTEX LIGHTING FOR TEH WIN!
It is truely amazing how much difference a simple lighting solution does to a scene/environment.
In addition to what some people have said, even if you enjoy character art more than environment art, you can probably find many ways to make the two meet up - statues and gargoyles, carved decorative pillars and structures, are all part of environments and can all contain interesting (if static) character models
As an environmental artist I couldn't agree more with Ror's post. It is truly over looked by too many companies as a second rate job. So much story telling can be done visually with environmental art. Scene history, atmosphere, lighting, mood, pacing, these things all weigh heavy on an environmental artist. These things can make or break a game. Freckles or not, eye scar or no eye scar won't make that much of the difference if the enviro art is sub-par. True a hot chick or a manly hero on the box and in the ads will get the game sales, but will it get a sequel made?
Hiring someone who will crank out a room filled with clich
The diffuse map is just a placeholder for the texture artist btw. I usually process a diffuse map so noone needs to take the time to select and seperate the fiddly bits from the bold bits... in case you thought that was a finished diffuse.
Moose was originally going to texture this piece up to demonstrate how that side of things goes but I think he did'nt have the time.
Yeah, to add to what Rorshach said, I usually have all of my elements divided into logical layers, and usually have all my screws and such on a layer. If you keep your sets neat and think ahead about what you will need to be able to select in photoshop you can just assign a different color to each layer when you render, it really helps time wise when texturing.
long post so i'm not getting specific but as an artist that considers himself a generalist I think environments can be incredibly challenging depending on the subject and type of environment. The range of complexity is huge.
However, It's easy to get into so I highly recommend it for artists looking for entry level positions.
Oh and if you do, send me PM with your environment portfolio
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However, It's easy to get into so I highly recommend it for artists looking for entry level positions.
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I dunno about that, I couldn't find work as an environment artist when I was looking for a job around the beginning of the year. 90% of the companies that I contacted and even after doing their art test, told me i didn't have enough experience. If your environment artwork is amazing you'll have no problems obtaining a position. If your average most companies will pass over your application even with mod experience.
Sorry if i brought down the topic, wanted to share my experience on this topic.
lee: dont worry about it, theres plenty of companies out there that are either in/untentionally throwing around short sighted attitudes toward the hiring process.
if i hadn't of gotten this job as level designer, I wouldn't of discovered how much I enjoy creating levels and gameplay. I'll never stop making art assets at home, level designer is definitely a new exciting direction for me.
Just came across this thread, interesting subject as recently I had caught onto the fact that there isn't really any 'famous' environment artists there as there is with characters such as bobo etc. Its been a common dilema of mine that I simply cannot choose between the two since I love them both but recently I am growing on the idea of trying to become a established environment artist.
As for environment art not being as interesting that is something I fail to agree on. I won't bore everyone trying to justify why it is or isn't as interesting but I will say that these days the level of skill required for each is becoming closer since the content I work on these days usually require zbrush passes on just about everything. I also find alot of environment artists creating statues and decoration which in terms of skill is quite close to that of an character artist.
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Just came across this thread, interesting subject as recently I had caught onto the fact that there isn't really any 'famous' environment artists there as there is with characters such as bobo etc.
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Just came across this thread, interesting subject as recently I had caught onto the fact that there isn't really any 'famous' environment artists there as there is with characters such as bobo etc.
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Cliffy B...
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leveldesigner! Not env artist. CliffyB, the Levelord... they get all the fame
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meh, where I'm at its the same thing. Is he just an idea man now? Or does he actually still get his hands dirty?
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I think ideas m... uh game designer.
And yeah it's pretty much thesame thing at my company too. I work with Hourences who is pretty famous in the unreal community (and is releasing a book next month). the work he does here is a mix of environment art and level design, but he doesn't really do textures or so.
Environment work is fantastic fun, even if you think it might not be. If you are wondering whether you might enjoy it, consder this: When you go on vacation, do you take pictures of the people or the sites? If you play games, how much time to you spend exploring and admiring the environment in relation to how much you examine and admire the characters? Do you like architecture? Outdoors wilderness?
I came to a big realization years ago after answering all of these answers for myself, that I really would enjoy doing environmental work. The world around me is what I typically enjoy looking at, both in games, and in the real world. It was a good decision for me, as I really get a chance to do lots of different things, exercising both the artistic and technical sides of my brain.
I'm into env. art for the research, the techniques used, and the changing of the role. There's prop modellers, world builders, asset creators, etc. etc. that all fall under the environment artist catagory. Each game has its own way of building worlds and learning them is what keeps me going.
Also, having a library of nifty architecture books is hella awesome.
Good read Ror, I'm at work so I can't post much. I'll come around later and throw down 2 pennies.
yeah, great read Ror. I find it quite strange how hard it is to find really talented dedicated environment guys. I mean particularly when obviously, quite literally, the environment *IS* the gameworld that you play in and experience.
It is odd that character work is sometimes seen as the glory work, but I certainly wouldn't agree with any comments above that character work has more potential to create fame and noteriety in an individual. That's just talent and hardwork and besides, very few software houses actually toot the horns of any of their individual employees for obvious reasons. The notable exception to this seems to be designers such as the CliffyB's and American McGees. But I sure as hell never heard of a character or other modeler being a 'frontman' for a project.
I actually got interested in the 3D medium making Quake1 maps. To me, there is no greater buzz than creating a virtual world where none previously existed that you can subsequently run around in. Somehow along the way, I 'fell' into dedicated character work, and it wasn't something I'd planned at all. The other problem that the larger interest in character work creates, is that there are a gazillion trillion professional character modelers out there, but only a few of the top percentile are really really good.
My advice to anyone who really cannot make a decision one way or another, is to go for the very small shops, that way you can still keep your oar stuck into a bit of everything. These days Im doing anything between Art directing, storyboarding, modeling characters and modeling trees and other props, and having an absolute blast. I'd forgotten how much fun being a generalist can be after being pidgeon holed for so many years.
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If you're making games to be famous I think you need to consider a different industry.
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Or start your own studio, make the bestest game evar and be a true media whore doing every interview with anyone that will listen. Look for Mark Rein's & Cliffy B's book "Media whoring; how to get your face in front of the cameras, be an goof ball or an ass and still be popular" I hear thats just a working title, they might trim it back.
I don't like what popularity does to industry types they always seem to take a bad turn and toss humility to the wind. It's almost like they are Leonardo DiCaprio in titanic, all the time... "I'M THE KING OF THE..."
Everyone who has a hand in making any game is a hero in my book =P
Daz: yeah i started as a character guy but i did level design and map textures too, specialised more in characters for a while, but as I found more and more companies wanted an env guy I went with that. I've always tried to do what 'they' needed rather than push to please myself.
It's all fun and these days I'm aware of the job security of my position and I get to take env art further than most so I'd be daft to moan. Happily i get to do the occasional statue to keep my hand in at character art, theres lot of organic env themes here so I dont lose that and now and then i do things like interactive ion cannon's or animated bridges.
I probably get more chances to experiment than the character guys tbh, an easy trade off for the occasionaly art meetings where im showing off stuff that gives the LD's a hard on but puts the artists in a coma
Modular construction of environment assets is tough, super tough. It's like designing complex jigsaw's but its worth the effort. It's best to accept though that you are going to make mistakes and that those mistakes can be corrected a little by going back over the work, and corrected almost completly over time as you learn the many pitfalls over the course of half a year until it's simply a workflow issue that you have adapted to.
It is hard to think modular, if you have ever had to make tiling textures or worked on old 8bit games, than I think it might come a bit more naturally for those people. I've been doing it for a while with mostly organic tunnels and organic outdoor enviroments.
Its nice to work this way in max and use XRefs. You can then set low poly proxy objects as stand-ins so you don't chug your system when you move around your scene. I actually think it would be easier to do structures but it can be applied to organic areas also. Once you start thinking modular you start designing that way. Instead of thinking "now how can I cut up this thing so it tiles?" you start thinking "This piece will tile 4 times to fit across one of these other pieces".
- Keep to a grid you're screwed if you don't. Bind your snap to grid toggle to a key I use Mouse Button 5. Toggle your snap "on" when moving the big pieces around and shut it off when you move in to detail individual pieces.
- For me it helps to keep to a texture sized grid, 8-16-32-64-128-256-512-1024-2048px. This gets tricky for me because our AD insists that we work in actual in/ft because we outsource pieces of animations. But I have a basic mesuring guide saved to my maxstart.max file so it loads every time I start a new file or reset.
- Controlled chaos, you can do whatever you want inside those pieces just make sure the bounds match up or can be capped.
- Create "end caps", "seam covers" and "frames" for your pieces. Seam covers are great ways to break up detail on a flat wall. Set the objects spinner to the center of the object so when they snap to a grid line, they hang over a little bit on each piece, and cover the seams. Support beams, trim, pipes, posters, fuse boxes, street clutter, broken rubble, whatever.
- Once you have your pieces you can make alternate pieces based off the first. The easiest is broken or battered, but you can do anything you want as long as you stick to the same bounds.
- When you want to check how a piece tiles, copy it by holding shift and moving the new piece to the end, and set the "number of copies" to 2-4 it should tile perfectly provided you moved the first copy correctly (toggle snap on before shift-moving).
- (Engine depenant). Use vertex paint to blend two textures together. This can get poly expensive but if you think about where you need your blend you can sub divide in those areas and make a nice blend but still keep the poly count pretty low all over.
- The more pieces you create the more chance someone else will want to mix and match (which is the point) and will find out pieces don't tile together like they "should". Try to cover all your bases but know, more than likely something will fall thru the cracks and not tile with another piece.
Meh... fix it or tell someone else to...
- I did a lot of tunnels for the current game I'm working on think Indiana Jones in the mine cart, but without the moving mine cart (yeah I know... I'm disapointed too). I made one section, tiled it 10 times straight in a line, made some adjustments to a few of the sections to break up the tiling. Added bones, a IKSpline solver and I had a section of tunnel that could be twisted in any shape I wanted. It could be chained together with other pieces to make miles of twisting and turning tunels that never bent or sloped the same way, yet referanced the same 5 pieces the original tunnel was using. Nothing seems laid out on a grid when you play thru but in max it is. I added end caps that where Y/T junctions, dead ends, drop offs, sections that where just tracks over darkness. 5 base pieces and miles of track/tunnels made out of those same 5 pieces.
I actually find working this way speeds me up and makes more efficent use of my time. Once the bulk of the assets are made it is VERY easy to mix and match new areas. Toward the end of the poject I can go an entire day with the large grid snap on and just be placing objects.
So essentially you are building a lego library, where all the bits can fit to one another, they are all on the same scale system (ie. 2 circles long, 4 etc.)?
So for the outside of a building, would you do something like:
2 differnt brick wall sections
pillar base
mid pillar secion
pillar cap
Window
drain pipe (straight section)
drain pipe (corner)
All built to a set number on an arbitrary scale (ie. each is 1, 2 or 3 units high/long). And then just fit them all together? So you have a window section, then a brick wall section, window, wall etc.
If that's how it's done, how do you blend differnt textures over parts, without the same thing happeneing to every instance of the part you are doing the texturing on (if they instances are sharing the same uv space)?
I've downloaded some Hammer videos to get a better idea on this stuff, but best to get info straight from the pros
Even though the character only takes up 20% of the screen... it's the one thing the player identifies with in ANY game. Because it's the 1 entity that the player is playing as.
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Even though the character only takes up 20% of the screen... it's the one thing the player identifies with in ANY game. Because it's the 1 entity that the player is playing as.
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Correct, but out of all the characters being built only a small percentage are main characters.
The ratio of aspiring character artists vs environment artists is grossly disproportional to actual work being done on a typical game.
Characters are more remembered for the most part that is true,but environment is what gives a game its mood and impact. You can have a great characters but how emersive can the game get when the environment looks like shit?
For example Tomb Raider,the first one everyone remembers Lara Croft but what gave the game impact was the environments,when i first played it i was in awe,i spent 20 minutes just looking around before i actually played.
or D-Day mission on medal of honor
0r the environment for return to castle wolfenstein also one of those environments which made impact.
I personally would argue environment is more important than character,sure character will be seen more but environment can consistantly surprise you and have impact on gameplay towards the end of the game.
Main characters in games are generally cyphers with no real character or depth as a rule, try as we might to invest them with nuance and such like. Partly this is because of the need for them to feel mallaeble to the player, partly because writing in games isnt so good and mostly not concerned about that!
It's the environments that more freely communicate how the players are meant to feel. I can't think of any occasions where anyone I know has ever told me that they 'really connected with the character in game x', usually people have a laugh at them.
Players connect with the objectives and story if anything and they pick up on how they are meant to feel by the environment, whether its beautiful and opulent and well lit which makes them feel safe, or if its dank and windy, rainy with lighting illuminating gothic like constructions that overpower them and make them feel nervous and small.
By the time the player reaches 'the monster' or 'the friend' the environment has already set them up for the meeting.
Wow, amazing topic this, and I have yet to read trough all of it, but I will for now share my experience in the gamez bizz (for it is a wild one, well, to me atleast).
Thanks to polycount I pretty much landed a job, I learned so much here, met many, many amazing artists (which is just as important to have as skills alone, a network of people), pretty much like most people here I wanted to go into the whole character thing. This is also what I have been hired for, doing characters.
Now, fate has had some weird tricks up its sleeves, because I ended up for a long time working on the level team. And I can tell you this, it has so much changed my perception of level design, level/environment artists. Saying level/env artists are '3rd rate wanna be modelers' is a no go for me now.
Levels are what makes a game, they provide the setting, the atmosphere, the history, the story, characters, while very cool to work on, are just a tiny, tiny assest running around in this world.
I think starting as a character artist helped me because I got to work on the more complex levelassets, ranging from statues, buildings, to small(ish) props.
And some of the tricks I've learned doing level work I have brought over to my character work.
Now I'm in the blissful position to be 50/50 character/environment artist. This will benefit me in the future as my portfolio will be a ranged one. And I must say, for a first job, I guess I couldn't have landed anywhere better.
You remember the environments because you are a game artist. The typical non-artist player attaches more to their character. You can present a beautiful environment... but the environment wouldn't have as big an impact if the player didn't have a character to move/interact through it. Or do something memorable in that area.
Characters can often times carry the game... even a franchise. Ask the typical gamer about MGS and the first thing that'll pop into their heads will, I guarantee you, be Solid Snake. Not the tanks, weapons, or various environments in the game.
Devil May Cry? Dante, the badass with the trench coat.
Final Fantasy 7? Everyone remembers when Aeris gets murdered, first, the location, second.
Bond games? James Bond, duh.
I'm not trying to be doushbag here. But in many instances, the environments take a backseat from the spotlight to characters. Unless the environment itself is the character.
Even in movies, you remember more often than not, what the characters did.
But what do I care? Go ahead and believe in this crazy "environments are way cooler" crazy propaganda. More jobs for me!
(And incase any have not noticed, yes I'm simply trying to dick around and get a reaction out of you. I'm in no way contributing to the discussion of this topic WHATSOEVERERERERELOLOLOLOLOLOROFLOLOLOCOPERSAUCE.)
You know there are games that have environments that stick out, but mostly they are older games . My prime example is Myst and it's siblings . Although games like Mario world had environments which stood out in memory as did a lot of other old school games . It does seem now that resolution has hit such a high point that characters are the main focus but there was a time when environments was the golden child .
This thread started out with proper nuance. I also agree that environment artists play a much bigger role than their 'status' suggests and I don't think environment art takes any less skill than character art. In that aspect, this is a great topic and like some others here I personally would rather marvel at awesome scenery than my opponents.
It is however a bit of a shame to see it seems to have turned entirely around. As SouL said, characters is the first thing we notice, because ever since we're born it's the first thing we relate to in real life, as well as in movies or any other figurative artform. People with no professional deformation of any kind will always notice the characters first. Even if these characters are shallow, or even just opponents. People have to believe in the possibile existance of any character or monster before one blows their brains out with a large weapon. If not, what's the fun.
In games everything has to be created from scratch and I agree that characters in an ideal production process would get as much love as the environments. That doesn't change that the average player will primairly look for the quality in characters, no matter how little space they take on screen or how little depth they have, they draw us more into a virtual world than the virtual world itself does.
i will try not to be too much of a dick here either cause it looks like a scary place for a character guy to even open his mouth. but i think it really depends on the game and its pace. in a FPS the environments are nice and all, but i hardly ever look at them, they could just be boxes for all i care, i am looking for things moving around so i can blow them to bits, or ammo, not trees and buildings.. its a shame really cause as an artist i can look at these games and tell much more effort goes into the environment than most games.
in an rts i always find myself looking at the lay of the land and admiring the environment much more than other games.
in platformers it really depends on the role the environment plays in the game. if the game depends on the environment for interaction i look at it more paying more attention to it, but for the most part it could be like an fps.
i totally disagree with the attitude that sees character guys as the heroes, and people see it as an superior position. i have never thought of it this way and really out of all the artist i have talked to dont know any that do, i think this is just some bitterness from environment artists for whatever reason, seems like the whole mac, pc, max vs maya thing to me. i make characters cause organic shapes and forms interest me more really thats it the only reason.
i am not saying environments dont matter, they do, but they are not the all singing dancing everything i am reading in this thread, they are a piece, of many pieces that make a whole.
are they underrated? i am sure to those who have a passion for them they are. but to the average joe of the street, not at all. compelling environments can make a game stick out in a crowd, just as compelling story, or character design, or gameplay. ideally they should all be compelling.
i also think the lack of environment artists can be attributed to the fact that there are just a ton more positions that need to be filled. you don't need to cover every inch of game with characters, but you do need environments to. i haven't worked on a game yet where the environment team was smaller or even the same size as the character team.
yeah I agree the thread has gone off the rails a little, thats a pretty natural thing for a board though.
I don't think theres any absolutes here, when there's an attempt to state that there are, the worth of the thread falls down a little.
Oh and soul, I already replied to the 'emotional impact' issue with the same stake you put in to the statement previous to mine that prompted it.
I've not been drinking when posting so I don't need to match your vitriol
Anyway, I'm just glad to see more interest in environments in general and really thats all I hoped to achieve here.
The more effort is put into the whole instead of the one, the better the quality of future games will be.
We could start this whole thread again with the title of 'Lack of Technical Artists' you know, and we'd be just as right, and it couldnt help but snub even more people who are equally as skilled in different areas.
Thats the nature of the industry, its what makes it so fun to work in and any thread that contributes to a wider awareness of an area within it, well thats worthwhile regardless of how much the point meanders.
I think part of the reason many people go in the character direction is because there seem to be many more tutorials to create decent characters, than environments. And most of the time (from my experience anyway), the images that tend to be featured most in galleries (forums/websites etc.) are characters, or focus on the character over the background.
I can't think of any environent tutorials where I thought (oh, I want to make THAT!), the ones I usually see are just a 'learn the basics' deal where you create some simple pishy house or something. Whereas tutorials like the Joan of Arc one are greate for beginners and will give them a result they can be proud of (if they don't cock things up).
I think if great environment art such as Strangefate's, Noritsune's (love that cathedral) were featured more in places (inspiration) then there would be more interest, and with decent tutorials (instruction) that lead to high quality work are more commonplace, more people would get into it.
I'm not asking for people to make tutorials, just pointing out a reason I reckon there is less interest. Also probably because until recently (in the history of gaming), many games such as FPSs didn't have overly interesting environments, so people tended to focus interest on characters. Which moved about and interacted with you.
But with fancy environment assest commonplace now, and with more interesting features (such as physics) I reckon interest will grow a fair bit. And environments interacting with players http://www.unknownworlds.com/blog/ things should become much more interesting
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I always wanted to be a 3D Character Artist thinking that was the best shit ever when it came to game development. But since I got my games job and starting out on the environment team, I kind of don't want to go to characters.
I like how most people think environment art is making trashcans and boxes... The whole time I've been doing environments, I havn't yet made one trashcan nor a solid box object (YES, NO CRATES! Unbelievable!).
Sure it can be boring at times doing shit like collision meshing, patching holes and making good occluders and other random shit like that. But there are annoying things with everything in 3D.
A few people have also asked for tips and stuff. I'll take my time during my lunch breaks this week and make a list of cool tips I've learned and will use for every other environment I build in the future. I'll link to my webbie so everyone can have a look at it. I'd be more than happy for people to correct the stuff I put up or add to it.
Oh, we should have more environment contests on polycount!
-caseyjones
Doing also some environment shit lately and it fun (though not very challanging so far).
It is truely amazing how much difference a simple lighting solution does to a scene/environment.
-caseyjones
Hiring someone who will crank out a room filled with clich
Would be a nice read, I'm sure.
r.
Josh, someone made a PDF. Maybe Lee3Dee? Can't remember
http://www.ericchadwick.com/examples/files/Rorshach_SciFi_SupportBeam.pdf
Moose was originally going to texture this piece up to demonstrate how that side of things goes but I think he did'nt have the time.
r.
However, It's easy to get into so I highly recommend it for artists looking for entry level positions.
Oh and if you do, send me PM with your environment portfolio
However, It's easy to get into so I highly recommend it for artists looking for entry level positions.
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I dunno about that, I couldn't find work as an environment artist when I was looking for a job around the beginning of the year. 90% of the companies that I contacted and even after doing their art test, told me i didn't have enough experience. If your environment artwork is amazing you'll have no problems obtaining a position. If your average most companies will pass over your application even with mod experience.
Sorry if i brought down the topic, wanted to share my experience on this topic.
r.
As for environment art not being as interesting that is something I fail to agree on. I won't bore everyone trying to justify why it is or isn't as interesting but I will say that these days the level of skill required for each is becoming closer since the content I work on these days usually require zbrush passes on just about everything. I also find alot of environment artists creating statues and decoration which in terms of skill is quite close to that of an character artist.
Just came across this thread, interesting subject as recently I had caught onto the fact that there isn't really any 'famous' environment artists there as there is with characters such as bobo etc.
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Cliffy B...
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Just came across this thread, interesting subject as recently I had caught onto the fact that there isn't really any 'famous' environment artists there as there is with characters such as bobo etc.
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Cliffy B...
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leveldesigner! Not env artist. CliffyB, the Levelord... they get all the fame
meh, where I'm at its the same thing. Is he just an idea man now? Or does he actually still get his hands dirty?
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I think ideas m... uh game designer.
And yeah it's pretty much thesame thing at my company too. I work with Hourences who is pretty famous in the unreal community (and is releasing a book next month). the work he does here is a mix of environment art and level design, but he doesn't really do textures or so.
I'd say Rorshach and StrangeFate are famous environment artists, at least around here.
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That's for sure.
Environment work is fantastic fun, even if you think it might not be. If you are wondering whether you might enjoy it, consder this: When you go on vacation, do you take pictures of the people or the sites? If you play games, how much time to you spend exploring and admiring the environment in relation to how much you examine and admire the characters? Do you like architecture? Outdoors wilderness?
I came to a big realization years ago after answering all of these answers for myself, that I really would enjoy doing environmental work. The world around me is what I typically enjoy looking at, both in games, and in the real world. It was a good decision for me, as I really get a chance to do lots of different things, exercising both the artistic and technical sides of my brain.
Also, having a library of nifty architecture books is hella awesome.
Good read Ror, I'm at work so I can't post much. I'll come around later and throw down 2 pennies.
It is odd that character work is sometimes seen as the glory work, but I certainly wouldn't agree with any comments above that character work has more potential to create fame and noteriety in an individual. That's just talent and hardwork and besides, very few software houses actually toot the horns of any of their individual employees for obvious reasons. The notable exception to this seems to be designers such as the CliffyB's and American McGees. But I sure as hell never heard of a character or other modeler being a 'frontman' for a project.
I actually got interested in the 3D medium making Quake1 maps. To me, there is no greater buzz than creating a virtual world where none previously existed that you can subsequently run around in. Somehow along the way, I 'fell' into dedicated character work, and it wasn't something I'd planned at all. The other problem that the larger interest in character work creates, is that there are a gazillion trillion professional character modelers out there, but only a few of the top percentile are really really good.
My advice to anyone who really cannot make a decision one way or another, is to go for the very small shops, that way you can still keep your oar stuck into a bit of everything. These days Im doing anything between Art directing, storyboarding, modeling characters and modeling trees and other props, and having an absolute blast. I'd forgotten how much fun being a generalist can be after being pidgeon holed for so many years.
If you're making games to be famous I think you need to consider a different industry.
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Or start your own studio, make the bestest game evar and be a true media whore doing every interview with anyone that will listen. Look for Mark Rein's & Cliffy B's book "Media whoring; how to get your face in front of the cameras, be an goof ball or an ass and still be popular" I hear thats just a working title, they might trim it back.
I don't like what popularity does to industry types they always seem to take a bad turn and toss humility to the wind. It's almost like they are Leonardo DiCaprio in titanic, all the time... "I'M THE KING OF THE..."
Everyone who has a hand in making any game is a hero in my book =P
It's all fun and these days I'm aware of the job security of my position and I get to take env art further than most so I'd be daft to moan. Happily i get to do the occasional statue to keep my hand in at character art, theres lot of organic env themes here so I dont lose that and now and then i do things like interactive ion cannon's or animated bridges.
I probably get more chances to experiment than the character guys tbh, an easy trade off for the occasionaly art meetings where im showing off stuff that gives the LD's a hard on but puts the artists in a coma
r.
Been fiddling with this for about a week or so now. Quite a pain.
r.
Its nice to work this way in max and use XRefs. You can then set low poly proxy objects as stand-ins so you don't chug your system when you move around your scene. I actually think it would be easier to do structures but it can be applied to organic areas also. Once you start thinking modular you start designing that way. Instead of thinking "now how can I cut up this thing so it tiles?" you start thinking "This piece will tile 4 times to fit across one of these other pieces".
- Keep to a grid you're screwed if you don't. Bind your snap to grid toggle to a key I use Mouse Button 5. Toggle your snap "on" when moving the big pieces around and shut it off when you move in to detail individual pieces.
- For me it helps to keep to a texture sized grid, 8-16-32-64-128-256-512-1024-2048px. This gets tricky for me because our AD insists that we work in actual in/ft because we outsource pieces of animations. But I have a basic mesuring guide saved to my maxstart.max file so it loads every time I start a new file or reset.
- Controlled chaos, you can do whatever you want inside those pieces just make sure the bounds match up or can be capped.
- Create "end caps", "seam covers" and "frames" for your pieces. Seam covers are great ways to break up detail on a flat wall. Set the objects spinner to the center of the object so when they snap to a grid line, they hang over a little bit on each piece, and cover the seams. Support beams, trim, pipes, posters, fuse boxes, street clutter, broken rubble, whatever.
- Once you have your pieces you can make alternate pieces based off the first. The easiest is broken or battered, but you can do anything you want as long as you stick to the same bounds.
- When you want to check how a piece tiles, copy it by holding shift and moving the new piece to the end, and set the "number of copies" to 2-4 it should tile perfectly provided you moved the first copy correctly (toggle snap on before shift-moving).
- (Engine depenant). Use vertex paint to blend two textures together. This can get poly expensive but if you think about where you need your blend you can sub divide in those areas and make a nice blend but still keep the poly count pretty low all over.
- The more pieces you create the more chance someone else will want to mix and match (which is the point) and will find out pieces don't tile together like they "should". Try to cover all your bases but know, more than likely something will fall thru the cracks and not tile with another piece.
Meh... fix it or tell someone else to...
- I did a lot of tunnels for the current game I'm working on think Indiana Jones in the mine cart, but without the moving mine cart (yeah I know... I'm disapointed too). I made one section, tiled it 10 times straight in a line, made some adjustments to a few of the sections to break up the tiling. Added bones, a IKSpline solver and I had a section of tunnel that could be twisted in any shape I wanted. It could be chained together with other pieces to make miles of twisting and turning tunels that never bent or sloped the same way, yet referanced the same 5 pieces the original tunnel was using. Nothing seems laid out on a grid when you play thru but in max it is. I added end caps that where Y/T junctions, dead ends, drop offs, sections that where just tracks over darkness. 5 base pieces and miles of track/tunnels made out of those same 5 pieces.
I actually find working this way speeds me up and makes more efficent use of my time. Once the bulk of the assets are made it is VERY easy to mix and match new areas. Toward the end of the poject I can go an entire day with the large grid snap on and just be placing objects.
So for the outside of a building, would you do something like:
2 differnt brick wall sections
pillar base
mid pillar secion
pillar cap
Window
drain pipe (straight section)
drain pipe (corner)
All built to a set number on an arbitrary scale (ie. each is 1, 2 or 3 units high/long). And then just fit them all together? So you have a window section, then a brick wall section, window, wall etc.
If that's how it's done, how do you blend differnt textures over parts, without the same thing happeneing to every instance of the part you are doing the texturing on (if they instances are sharing the same uv space)?
I've downloaded some Hammer videos to get a better idea on this stuff, but best to get info straight from the pros
Even though the character only takes up 20% of the screen... it's the one thing the player identifies with in ANY game. Because it's the 1 entity that the player is playing as.
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Correct, but out of all the characters being built only a small percentage are main characters.
The ratio of aspiring character artists vs environment artists is grossly disproportional to actual work being done on a typical game.
For example Tomb Raider,the first one everyone remembers Lara Croft but what gave the game impact was the environments,when i first played it i was in awe,i spent 20 minutes just looking around before i actually played.
or D-Day mission on medal of honor
0r the environment for return to castle wolfenstein also one of those environments which made impact.
I personally would argue environment is more important than character,sure character will be seen more but environment can consistantly surprise you and have impact on gameplay towards the end of the game.
It's the environments that more freely communicate how the players are meant to feel. I can't think of any occasions where anyone I know has ever told me that they 'really connected with the character in game x', usually people have a laugh at them.
Players connect with the objectives and story if anything and they pick up on how they are meant to feel by the environment, whether its beautiful and opulent and well lit which makes them feel safe, or if its dank and windy, rainy with lighting illuminating gothic like constructions that overpower them and make them feel nervous and small.
By the time the player reaches 'the monster' or 'the friend' the environment has already set them up for the meeting.
r.
Thanks to polycount I pretty much landed a job, I learned so much here, met many, many amazing artists (which is just as important to have as skills alone, a network of people), pretty much like most people here I wanted to go into the whole character thing. This is also what I have been hired for, doing characters.
Now, fate has had some weird tricks up its sleeves, because I ended up for a long time working on the level team. And I can tell you this, it has so much changed my perception of level design, level/environment artists. Saying level/env artists are '3rd rate wanna be modelers' is a no go for me now.
Levels are what makes a game, they provide the setting, the atmosphere, the history, the story, characters, while very cool to work on, are just a tiny, tiny assest running around in this world.
I think starting as a character artist helped me because I got to work on the more complex levelassets, ranging from statues, buildings, to small(ish) props.
And some of the tricks I've learned doing level work I have brought over to my character work.
Now I'm in the blissful position to be 50/50 character/environment artist. This will benefit me in the future as my portfolio will be a ranged one. And I must say, for a first job, I guess I couldn't have landed anywhere better.
Characters can often times carry the game... even a franchise. Ask the typical gamer about MGS and the first thing that'll pop into their heads will, I guarantee you, be Solid Snake. Not the tanks, weapons, or various environments in the game.
Devil May Cry? Dante, the badass with the trench coat.
Final Fantasy 7? Everyone remembers when Aeris gets murdered, first, the location, second.
Bond games? James Bond, duh.
I'm not trying to be doushbag here. But in many instances, the environments take a backseat from the spotlight to characters. Unless the environment itself is the character.
Even in movies, you remember more often than not, what the characters did.
But what do I care? Go ahead and believe in this crazy "environments are way cooler" crazy propaganda. More jobs for me!
(And incase any have not noticed, yes I'm simply trying to dick around and get a reaction out of you. I'm in no way contributing to the discussion of this topic WHATSOEVERERERERELOLOLOLOLOLOROFLOLOLOCOPERSAUCE.)
You know there are games that have environments that stick out, but mostly they are older games . My prime example is Myst and it's siblings . Although games like Mario world had environments which stood out in memory as did a lot of other old school games . It does seem now that resolution has hit such a high point that characters are the main focus but there was a time when environments was the golden child .
It is however a bit of a shame to see it seems to have turned entirely around. As SouL said, characters is the first thing we notice, because ever since we're born it's the first thing we relate to in real life, as well as in movies or any other figurative artform. People with no professional deformation of any kind will always notice the characters first. Even if these characters are shallow, or even just opponents. People have to believe in the possibile existance of any character or monster before one blows their brains out with a large weapon. If not, what's the fun.
In games everything has to be created from scratch and I agree that characters in an ideal production process would get as much love as the environments. That doesn't change that the average player will primairly look for the quality in characters, no matter how little space they take on screen or how little depth they have, they draw us more into a virtual world than the virtual world itself does.
in an rts i always find myself looking at the lay of the land and admiring the environment much more than other games.
in platformers it really depends on the role the environment plays in the game. if the game depends on the environment for interaction i look at it more paying more attention to it, but for the most part it could be like an fps.
i totally disagree with the attitude that sees character guys as the heroes, and people see it as an superior position. i have never thought of it this way and really out of all the artist i have talked to dont know any that do, i think this is just some bitterness from environment artists for whatever reason, seems like the whole mac, pc, max vs maya thing to me. i make characters cause organic shapes and forms interest me more really thats it the only reason.
i am not saying environments dont matter, they do, but they are not the all singing dancing everything i am reading in this thread, they are a piece, of many pieces that make a whole.
are they underrated? i am sure to those who have a passion for them they are. but to the average joe of the street, not at all. compelling environments can make a game stick out in a crowd, just as compelling story, or character design, or gameplay. ideally they should all be compelling.
i also think the lack of environment artists can be attributed to the fact that there are just a ton more positions that need to be filled. you don't need to cover every inch of game with characters, but you do need environments to. i haven't worked on a game yet where the environment team was smaller or even the same size as the character team.
I don't think theres any absolutes here, when there's an attempt to state that there are, the worth of the thread falls down a little.
Oh and soul, I already replied to the 'emotional impact' issue with the same stake you put in to the statement previous to mine that prompted it.
I've not been drinking when posting so I don't need to match your vitriol
Anyway, I'm just glad to see more interest in environments in general and really thats all I hoped to achieve here.
The more effort is put into the whole instead of the one, the better the quality of future games will be.
We could start this whole thread again with the title of 'Lack of Technical Artists' you know, and we'd be just as right, and it couldnt help but snub even more people who are equally as skilled in different areas.
Thats the nature of the industry, its what makes it so fun to work in and any thread that contributes to a wider awareness of an area within it, well thats worthwhile regardless of how much the point meanders.
r.
I can't think of any environent tutorials where I thought (oh, I want to make THAT!), the ones I usually see are just a 'learn the basics' deal where you create some simple pishy house or something. Whereas tutorials like the Joan of Arc one are greate for beginners and will give them a result they can be proud of (if they don't cock things up).
I think if great environment art such as Strangefate's, Noritsune's (love that cathedral) were featured more in places (inspiration) then there would be more interest, and with decent tutorials (instruction) that lead to high quality work are more commonplace, more people would get into it.
I'm not asking for people to make tutorials, just pointing out a reason I reckon there is less interest. Also probably because until recently (in the history of gaming), many games such as FPSs didn't have overly interesting environments, so people tended to focus interest on characters. Which moved about and interacted with you.
But with fancy environment assest commonplace now, and with more interesting features (such as physics) I reckon interest will grow a fair bit. And environments interacting with players http://www.unknownworlds.com/blog/ things should become much more interesting